Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    		
    
    	I think it all fits in naturally. I love to send Barb (my wife)
    all sorts of things, very frequently...............
    
    	but.....................
    
    	There is nothing as important in our relationship than a good
    hug and many "I love you's". Perhaps it is in in "vogue" anymore.
    I say "Oh well, I never followed trends anyway! .)" 
    If people do not constantly reaffirm their love verbally("I love
    you") and physically (Hugs) to their lovers,freinds,spouses,etc...then
    I say they are missing out on the finer things in love.............In
    my book there is nothing better....(Well, almost nothing better.
    ;}.)
    
    
    	Geez I think I will call her right now...
    
    cw

    It is always nice to hear those word!!! I tell my husband that I love
    him every single day, and he is always says it too to me. I disagree
    with the survey too, there is nothing wrong with telling your husband,
    or family member or freind how you feel, and it is always nice to
    hear!!
    
    Lynne

I think that the notion that saying "I love you" is going out of style is
an attempt to justify the problems that many people have with expressing
their emotions.  By sending flowers, buying gifts, many people thus avoid
dealing with their feelings on a personal level.

On the other hand, many people say "I love you" when they don't really
mean it.

In my view, neither the words alone nor the objects (gifts) alone matter.
It is the attitude, the feeling, something that can come across even if one
cannot speak and has no money for gifts.

But if saying "I love you" is out of fashion, then I'll insist on being
unfashionable!

			Steve

P.S.  Don't forget to tell your children or your parents that you love them
too!

    My wife get *Hugs* and *Kisses* and *I LOVE YOU'S* all the time.
    
    My kids get the same as they leave for school, when I get home at
    night and when they get tucked into be at *9PM* and both are in
    high school.
    
    I'm a romantic that sends flowers, also.
    
    So if this phrase is unfashionable and out of style.  I guess I
    too was never one to follow fashion.
    
    I love Mary Ann, Jerry Jr. and Tracie Ann.
    

    re .0:
    
    Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper. It sounds to me
    like the survey was rigged.
    
    Rigging a survey is *extremely* easy. Suppose the question were this:
    "Would you rather have your SO hug you and say 'I love you' or give you
    flowers, hug you, and say 'I love you'?"
    
    Well, wanna bet that nigh *everyone* is going to vote for the flowers?
    
    I can then draw from this the conclusion that people would rather get
    flowers that be told "I love you" -- which is true, in a sense --
    follow it up with a nifty article in the Style section with the florist
    who has the biggest ad budget in my newspaper, and boost flower sales
    among all the people in town who feel guilty about not loving their
    SO's enough.
    
    It's very simple, really, just a few sharp tugs to the heartstrings and
    a little cheap media manipulation.
    
    	Jon

	'Only dead fish go with the flow!'

	- Dan

	Sure, flowers are nice, but I've gotten lots of flowers from
	people who don't love me, and they (the flowers) don't fare
	too well when I'm in a snuggle-mode late at night.  =8-)

							   Carla

    Maybe the survey meant that it's not as common as it used to
    be for people to say "I love you" too soon in a relationship, before
    they really mean it.  Maybe that trend is changing as people realize
    they no longer have to tell everybody they have sex with that they
    love them.  
    
    I think it's essential for people in a love relationship to frequently
   say "I love you."
    
    My daughter and I usually say "I love you" at the end of phone
    conversations.  We're so used to saying it that sometimes we run
    it together as all one word, but we still mean it.
    
    I also tell my cats that I love them, too.  (I say "mummy loves
    Raven" Isn't it sickening?) :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    I think it also depends on what "I love you" in the relationship means,
    and what type of relationship it is.
    
    I tell my kids I love them (they frequently say "I hate you" :-)),
    and that love is an unconditional love.  They can do anything, say
    anything, be anything, and I will always love them. No if, ands or buts
    about it...  I may be unhappy with them at times, I may be displeased
    with them at other times, but I still *love* them. I would go to the
    ends of this earth for them. $$$ don't stand in the way, and neither
    does anything else.
    
    I can honestly say - this is the only true love I have known.  There
    has been NOBODY that I have been willing to love the same way I love my
    kids at this crossing in my life.  There have been a couple of times I
    may have been close, but no cigar yet!
    
    HOWEVER...
    
    There is a very good friend (male) in my life that I tell him all the
    time that "I love him" The love is ever so different, and means
    differently also. He is probably one of my best male friends, and I lean
    on him a lot. I don't even put that love into the same category as the 
    love I tell (and show) the girls I have for them.
    
    I get REALLY upset when a guy I have been dating, up and tells me "I
    love you"...  I'd much rather hear "I'm falling in love with you"...
    for a long while first... nothing makes me smile more than to hear
    that. Love is something that I feel has to grow as a relationship matures 
    and grows.  I did not LOVE (ooooo, shocking huh?) my girls when I first
    delivered them.. I didn't even love them when they were small at
    first... it was something that just came about.. and I think a
    male/female relationship is the same way.. I think it takes a lot of
    being together, exploring together, and just plain growing together.
    It involves trusting someone like you have never trusted before. (or in
    my case, did and got burnt :-)..).
    
    I also think too many people don't know the difference between love and
    lust. Ann Landers (or was it Abby) did a small poem about the
    differnce about love and lust... the biggest thing that I remember was
    that love was a fiendship that caught hold, lust was a roll in the hay
    and never see you again type thing...
    
    On the subject of flowers.. they are probably my favorite thing
    (besides cards) to send and recieve...  not to say I LOVE YOU with, but
    to say, I was thinking about you.. or {in my mind} I hope that looking at
    the flowers that I have sent will put me on HIS mind, or put an event BACK
    into his mind...
    
    O'course my most devislish thing to do is send flowers with NO card at
    all...
    
    
    
    I hope saying I love you does not become "chic"... I hope it can be
    something special that is meant for someone special...

    My fiance and I say "I love you" to each other all the time.  When
    he's leaving for work in the morning, before we go to sleep at night,
    at the end of a telephone conversation and at least a dozen other
    times during the day.  Sure I get flowers all the time too, but
    not to replace the spoken words, because I he always says, when
    he hands me the flowers, "This is because I love you!"
    
    Lori B.

    Another phrase that I believe people need  to say is 
    "I need you".  It takes courage to use that one, but it says a lot!
    
    just another opinion
    rng

    
    "I just called....
    
    			...to say ....
    
    					I love you...."
    
    

    re: .9
    
    Have to agree with you, I love my daughters unconditionally.  They
    are the only ones I have ever felt saying I love you means anything.
    
    ..dale
    

I've heard the words "i love you" too many times when the actions "i love you"
have not been there.....


hence, actions mean so much more to me than the words....




/kath

    
    Hmmm...my favorite words.
    
    I tell anyone that I love..."I love you"...whenever I see or talk to
    them. Sometimes I don't see these folks very often...so I get the
    important things said when I do see them...
    
    I tell my husband and my son I love them every day...several times a
    day...sometimes not in words...but every day.
    
    And...when I could just "kill" one of them...and I am going to scream
    my bloody head off....I tell them "I love you" then too...it reminds me
    of priorities...
    
    Melinda
    

    
    	Sometimes I tell my girlfriend "I love you" when I'm feeling
    a little insecure, because hearing those words reflected back to me
    so graciously allows me to feel secure again. Most of the time I
    tell her "I love you" when I *feel* those words and they mean something
    to me. I also say "I love you" when we're working through an issue
    or difficulty, as that affirms our comittment to each other and
    helps us make it through that process. Then I say "I love you" when 
    we come out on the other side together, (hopefully in resolution ;')
    affirming the action that love is and has just been.               
    
    	Joe Jasniewski
                                           

         I tend to reserve the use of the words a bit.  Saying them too
    often sometimes takes away from their impact and sincerity.  Saying it
    at just the right moment, and then making sure to act in a way which 
    backs-up the words before saying it again would be more convincing,
    especially to a loved one who has not known you for a long time.  Those
    who have known you for many years know exactly what you feel, and it
    might be wise to tell them about it so that they don't feel taken for
    granted.
    
                                       Greg

    .16  if you were in a new relationship which was hot and heavy and
    you experienced the actions but never heard the words would it make
    a difference?

>    .16  if you were in a new relationship which was hot and heavy and
>    you experienced the actions but never heard the words would it make
>    a difference?


	 I would never expect the words "I love you" to occur in
	 a NEW  "hot and heavy" relationship.

	 It's just not me....Ik take some time before I could ever say
	 anything was "hot and heavy" enough for it to be anything but
	 lust/infatuation.

	 /kath  

  .20> if you were in a new relationship which was hot and heavy and
  >  you experienced the actions but never heard the words would it make
  >  a difference?
    
    Funny you should ask. My "hot & heavy" relationship has been going on
    for a year and a half now. I never hear the words. Ok never is to
    severe let's say I can count the times on my fingers. And it's usually
    in the context of stating facts. If the actions didn't speak words I'd
    have gone bonkers long ago. I don't think there is anything worse then
    hearing a deafening silance after you've told someone that you love
    them. Yick.  I end up telling him that I love him alot less than I'd
    like but it's better than saying it and not hearing it back.
    
    Why does this happen? As he explains to me "well, I have told you, you
    do know it don't you?" To much logic for a relationship.  
    
    Gail

    the most recent relationship I got into - it took me 3 days to say
    "I love you" - it took him 15 months.....people have different levels
    of comfort with the thought - and the words....
    
    What is important is SHOWING you care.....not saying it....(although
    every now and then it could be nice to hear it....;)
    
    -Jody

"I don't think there is anything worse then hearing a deafening silance after
you've told someone that you love them."

If someone tells me that they love me.  I try to take it on face value; over
time, what exactly they mean will be proven by their actions.  If someone tells
me that they love me, and I don't feel that I can assuredly state that I love
them, I try to show them that I do care for them, feel for them, and that they
are important to me.

Jim.

>"I don't think there is anything worse then hearing a deafening silance after
>you've told someone that you love them."

This is a topic i was discussing with someone the other day.....What is the 
motivating factor behind saying "I love you"?  WHY do we say it.....I say it
to let the other person know I care..but I know there have been many times
that I've said it for the purpose of hearing someone say it back to me....to
be re-assured of their love....

And I've also found that in doing that, its one of the most empty feelings
in the world after he said "I love you" back. The last thing I want to do is
beg for love....to beg for reassurance.  It's important for it to be given to 
me, not asked for.

It's a much nicer feeling to give to someone than to beg to receive from 
someone........


/kath

.26>	What is the motivating factor behind saying "I love you"?  

	Could it be actually loving someone?  Nah, too obvious.  =8-)

							   Carla

.27>  Could it be actually loving someone?  Nah, too obvious.  =8-)

Well, in my opinion that SHOULD be the motivating factor......and, if in
fact that is the motivating factor, then there shouldn't be that "empty
void" when you don't get the same words back.  

My point is, shouldn't it be totally selfless when you say those words?  Should
you really "expect" or "desire" to hear them back?  Should your "desire"
to hear it be a motivating factor in the reason you say it in the first place?


Am I making sense in what I'm trying to say?

/kath

    Kath, I don't think that saying "I love you" should be totally
    selfless.  I know that when I feel and say "I love you", I expect the
    same in return, and maybe more.  Sometimes I don't say it at all when I
    really feel it because I'm afraid that it won't be returned, but that's
    my hangup.  I've been in relationships in which I did the majority of
    the giving - very selfless - and came out feeling oh-so-empty.
    
    Next time I'll be more selfish and if I don't get the words and feeling
    in return, I'm history as far as the other person is concerned.
    
    Carol
    

    Love means many things to many people.  Perhaps some people will put
    too much emphasis on the word, and what it means... "to them," compared
    to what it means... "to me."
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Sometimes we need to hear "I love you."
    
    Sometimes we need to say "I love you."
    
    Sometimes, we know someone we care about needs to hear "I love you."
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I can say "I love you" to someone, without going down and picking out
    furniture in the morning, but still... I do care deeply for that
    person.
    
    
    Remember the song by Olivia... "I honestly love you."  Remember the
    line... 
    
    "don't blow the chance, when you've got the chance to say... I love
    you... I honestly love you..."
    
    
    Dwight

    I pretty much agree with kath on this one; "I love you" works
    best for me when it's a phrase given without expected return.
    My reasons for feeling this way stem from a relationship in
    which I heard the phrase "I love you" literally dozens of times
    in a day.  Over time, I came to learn that what she was really
    trying to say was, "I need to say or demonstrate that you love 
    me."  Her actions came from her feeling insecure, not "o.k.",
    and, not surprisingly, my automatic response of "I love you,
    too." didn't really help change those feelings.  Indeed, over 
    time, the phrase "I love you" began to mean less.  Yes, I
    did love her, but the value of the phrase was diminished by
    overuse and misuse.  I think what kath was pointing out is
    that sometimes, it can mean something other than "I love you"
    and, in such cases, it can lead to difficulties.
    
    Steve
    

Makes sense to me Kathi...

When I tell someone "I Love You"  I mean just that.  I don't expect anything in
return, except perhaps an acknowledgement and acceptance of that love. I've told
a few people that I know didn't love me that I loved them because I did.

On the other hand, you don't have to be totally selfless all the time.  But
maybe there's a better way to say '''I need to hear that you love me''', then "I
Love You".  Perhaps you could say 'I need to feel loved'.  Say what you mean,
Mean what you say.  Say what you feel.  Don't make people be mindreaders.

Occasionally, however, I don't say "I Love You" when I feel it...  Usually when
I believe that the other person will not take it in the way that I mean it, if
they think that I am asking something of them.  Then I try to show them how I
fell instead.

Jim.

    RE: .24
    
    Jody.. this is not aimed right at you... but instead the general noting
    public...  in .24 Jodi says she said I love you after 3 days...
    
    My question is: "How in the HECK can anyone know anyone well enough
    after three days (given 24*3=72 little hours) to say you love them...
    
    Somehow I can't seem to grasp that concept....
    
    After 72 hours WHAT are you loving??? Certainly not their values, how
    could you know them (the values) in 72 hours? 
    
    Just curious..

>      <<< Note 845.33 by ISTG::KLEINBERGER "Busy rounding off infinity" >>>
    
>    My question is: "How in the HECK can anyone know anyone well enough
>    after three days (given 24*3=72 little hours) to say you love them...
>    
>    Somehow I can't seem to grasp that concept....
>    
>    After 72 hours WHAT are you loving??? Certainly not their values, how
>    could you know them (the values) in 72 hours? 


	 I've seen love that fast work....and I've seen it fail...My
	 ex-roommate met a guy on a Friday, and Tuesday they decided
	 to get married.

	 For some people they feel they "know it's right", there are
	 other's at the other extreme that never "know if it's right"
	 and can drag a relationship on for years without the word
	 'love.'

	 I'd like to think, myself, that I'm somewhere in the middle
	 of that....saying "i love you" is a very important step to
	 me, but I can recognize when i do love someone.

	 /kath

          <"The heart doesn't keep time, it merely records growth.">
    
    "Do you believe in a love at first sight....
     Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time..
     What do you see when you turn out the light...
     I can't tell you but I know it's mine..."
    
    		From "A little help with my friends" - The Beatles
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    re:  -2
    
    It amazes me how people think that you've got to court for 12
    months and then drop on your knees one night after dinner and honestly
    speak "I love you."
    
    Hell, 3 days, 3 months, 3 years, 30 years.... it's all relevant.  You
    NEVER KNOW anything about LOVE for sure because you can't define it and
    you're dealing with people who can change over night.  There are people
    that got divorced after 30 years and said, "I just don't love you
    anymore."  So don't step on the toes of someone that said, "I love you"
    after just three days.  
    
    Remember too, that love isn't structured.  There are limitless levels
    of love.  I could date Kathy for a few days, and develop strong
    feelings for her and say, "Kathy, I love you."  It wouldn't mean that
    I can't love others, nor would it mean that I'd feel *just* as strong
    about Kathy 30 years from now.  It would mean simply, "I love you, now,
    today, at this moment."
    
    I can't define love.  I haven't met the *know-it-all* that can, yet.
    
    Dwight

RE: dwight
    
>    Remember too, that love isn't structured.  There are limitless levels
>    of love.  I could date Kathy for a few days, and develop strong
>    feelings for her and say, "Kathy, I love you."  It wouldn't mean that
>    I can't love others, nor would it mean that I'd feel *just* as strong
>    about Kathy 30 years from now.  It would mean simply, "I love you, now,
>    today, at this moment."


	 Oh, fine, Dwight.....use ME as an example...I WONDERED what
	 everyone was talking about today when i logged
	 in.....Numerous mail messages asking me if there is something
	 they didn't know about going on..... :-P

         Come on!  you of all people should know the "rumor-NOTES-net"!

	 How come *I* am always the brunt of the rumor-mongers??
	 Hummm????

	 :-)

	 /kath

    I can't explain how my emotions work.  When I really fall for someone,
    it's fast, and it's frantic, and it's fantastic.  I would NEVER
    demand that from anyone else, nor would I expect it from them. 
    Sometimes it's spontaneous mutual combustion, sometimes the
    relationship can be modified so both are pleased and comfortable
    with it.  
    
    My love is like my poetry.  It's suddenly THERE, or no matter how
    hard I try it just won't happen - and if I try to force it, it comes
    out utter crud.
    
    -Jody
    

    Re .33, Gale, I agree with you.  Speaking for myself, I couldn't
    imagine even thinking I loved somebody after three days, nevermind
    saying it!  I might be in lust, I might think they were very
    attractive, and I might think I was starting to like them alot,
    but I would never think I loved them.  It really annoys me to have
    someone say they love me when I *know* they really don't, and it
    also annoys me to have someone say it too soon because I can't imagine
    they really do, and it makes me think they're shallow.  On the other
    hand, if I've been seeing someone constantly for several months
    or a year or more and hadn't said it I might want to have a talk
    as to exactly what the status of the relationship was.  Are we just
    friends, are we friends and lovers, or are we, in fact, in love?  I
    would definitely never waste my time moving in with somebody who
    hadn't said they loved me.  (except for roommates of course)  
    
    I have never said "I love you" first (in a romantic relationship).
     I just don't feel like putting myself on the line like that.  I
    know I've loved 3 people who didn't love me back, but I didn't tell
    them I did.  It's too embarrassing.
    
    Basically, I don't want somebody telling me "I love you" unless
    they really think they might want to spend the rest of their life
    with me.  As far as this business of saying "I love you" just because
    right now, at this minute, that's how they feel, I'd really rather
    have them say "I like you a lot."
    
    After reading this topic, I found myself trying to remember how
    many men have told me "I love you."  I can only remember 8 of them,
    and I think that's it so far.  Ironically, of the 8 men, 2 of them
    *I* was in love with, but I knew they weren't really in love with
    me even when they said it, so I never said it back.  I knew it wasn't
    real.  They were womanizers.  I've only said it to 3 men in my entire
    life so far.  (they were 3 of the 8 who said it to me)  The other
    3 who said it I didn't love so I didn't say it back.  Ironically,
    to show how little it means to some people to say "I love you,"
    one of the men who had told me several times that he loved me, later
    became a good friend, and once mentioned that he never tells women
    he dates that he loves them until he's dated them for a long time.
     He went on to say "That's why even tho I was very infatuated with
    you I never told you I loved you."  I said, "Huh?  You told me you
    loved me at least 3 or 4 times!  Don't you remember?"  He claimed
    he didn't and was astounded that I said he had!  And some people
    wonder why some other people become cynical????? !!!  I can't imagine
    ever telling somebody I loved them, and then completely forgetting
    about it less than a year later!  
    
    Lorna
    

I'm with Jody...

It can happen in 3 days.  And it can happen and have nothing whatsoever to do
with sexual lust. I would say infatuation also, but that depends on your
definition of infatuation.  A couple of the women I've loved the hardest and
fastest I've never had a sexual thought about...  Which is *real* weird for me.

But what I do think that happens is that you fall in love with who you *think*
they are.  Whether you are actually falling in love with them depends on how
truely they are depicting themselves, how clearly you are seeing them, how much
tolerance your love has.

Now, someone telling you they love you after three days doesn't mean that you
have to jump in with both feet right away.  I believe the best thing to do is
take it on face value, and let time prove it.  Accept it, be glad that who you
are can be loved, but don't bet your life on it untill you are comfortable doing
so.  Frankly, right now my reaction to being told "I Love You" after three days
would be to jump onto the brakes with both feet, but that's *my* problem.  It
has nothing to do with whether or not that love is valid.

Jim.

Lorna

>It really annoys me to have
>    someone say they love me when I *know* they really don't, and it
>    also annoys me to have someone say it too soon because I can't imagine
>    they really do, and it makes me think they're shallow.

The problem with this is, yes...it can be off-putting..but everyone has 
their differences....I have felt love immediately....but only once...and we
still love each other today, but its not THAT kind of love...

When it comes to romantic love.....I feel that I must take the time to know
some about a person before I jump.....other's feel they know each other enough
immediately. Each person is different, and that means that "i love you" is 
going to come at different times.  

I think its important to not question someone when they say they love you...
And I think its important to question yourself before YOU say it.....

But I can only speak for myself....

I also think that you don't have to "fully know" someone to tell them you
love them.  The wonderful thing about relationships is that you're always
discovering new things about the other.

/kath

re. 39
    
>>    	The one time I knew I fell in love, I knew it after the first
>>    time together.
    

        I'm with you, Mike.   I tend to fall 'in love' quickly also.
One date, one look....whatever.  If he 'knocks my socks off' than
I know it.   If *I* have to think about it, question it, it isn't
love.   I have had guys say, "you'll learn to love me".  But it never
happens!  When they say something like that I tend to run the other
way.   Heck, if someone has faults after I get to know them, thats 
alright, for I'm not perfect, but I'm real close..;^)

       Saying 'I love you' doesn't have to be thought about it has
to be expressed.

Mikki

"Ya can't start a fire, ya can't start a fire without a spark.  This guns
 for hire, even if it's just dancing in the dark...."    - Bruce Springsteen
    
    re:  .36
    
    Sorry about all the fan mail Kathy!  :^)  
    
    Does this mean the wedding is off???  :^)
    
    ====================================================================
    re:  someone back a ways...
    
    As far as not saying "I love you" to someone unless you could spend the
    rest of your life with someone, I don't think we'd all be giving out
    much love based on that principle.
    
    I also believe that I can be in love with more than one person at a
    time.  Now commitment enters here, but that's another story.  I use to
    tell myself that I would save my "I love you's" up, but hey... ya only
    live once and ya gotta seize the day... so I let'em fly now!  
    
    If I say "I love you" it doesn't mean "I worship you."  It merely means
    "I love you."  The problem is, NONE of us can put a "handle" on love. 
    But, I think it would be a better world if we spoke what we felt, from
    the heart.  Again, I might love today, but tomorrow I may love less or
    more.  I was married once.  I loved my wife.  Three years ago I
    divorced her.  Today I love her as a person and the mother of my son,
    but more like a friend.  
    
    As people change, as time moves, as the wind blows, love changes too. 
    It's not a constant.  It's a variable.  It contains "how much" we store
    in it.  
    
    No one can predict tomorrow and how much we'll love someone.  It's an old
    "traditional dream" that we'll love ONE person above all else for the rest
    of our life.  That's also selfish, as far as I'm concerned.  I didn't
    always feel this way.  Even just recently, I've become more aware of this.
    
    If you have a relationship with one person for a couple of years, or a
    couple of months, and it ends... think of it as a good time two months
    where you were able to share love with someone that was special to you for
    that period.  Then move on and love again.

    Dwight

    
>    Sorry about all the fan mail Kathy!  :^)  
>    
>    Does this mean the wedding is off???  :^)



	 Sorry, Dwight...but I'm just not sure if I love you.... :-)
	 Let's put it off til next month.  :-)

	 /kath_ack!

>>    re:  someone back a ways...
>>    
>>    As far as not saying "I love you" to someone unless you could spend the
>>    rest of your life with someone, I don't think we'd all be giving out
>>    much love based on that principle.

I used to belong to the "only say it if you mean it forever" camp. But as Dwight
points out, this meant I basically never said it 'cos I was never sure it would
last.

Too many relationships fizzed because I kept *holding back* because I was 
worrying about the future.

I'm now a firm believer in saying "I love you" when it's what I feel for the 
person at the time I say it. I definitely wouldn't say it after only three days,
but that's just me. For me, love comes from really *knowing* someone, *trusting*
them, feeling "at home" with them; and that takes longer than three days.

Hugh.

    re .43, Dwight, what's wrong with giving out a lot of *like*?
    Also, there are different kinds of love.  I am all for universal
    love and for telling our children, parents, pets, and close friends
    that we love them.  But, that's different than saying "I love you"
    in the context of romantic love.  I think romantic love should be
    reserved for the rare times when it's really true, and if it's never
    true, or hardly ever true, then maybe we'll just have to learn to
    value friendship more.  I understand what you meant about your ex-wife.
     I feel that I still love my ex-husband, too.  I have always felt
    that I never stopped loving him, I just stopped being in love with
    him.  But, he's the only person I've ever been in love with that
    I feel that way about.  I don't think there's anything wrong with
    telling people that we love them as friends or that we're infatuated
    with them or have a crush on them.  To me, that usually feels more
    honest.  I think the problem with saying "I love you" to someone
    we don't know very well is that "I love you" means different things
    to different people.  A person who is in the habit of falling madly
    in love after 3 days could say it to a person who thinks "I love
    you" means you're the one special person I've been looking for all
    my life, let's get married and have babies.  The person who takes
    saying "I love you" to mean something more rare is likely to get
    hurt.  I've seen it happen too many times.  If I say it to somebody
    I have to feel that I'm going to feel that way forever, and not
    that next week I may be saying it to somebody else.  I also always
    wonder how meaningful falling in love can be to someone who blurts
    it out every time they have a good time with somebody.
    
    Also, re .43, no offense, but I have heard your last paragraph
    expounded about a million times in my life, due to the personal
    philisophy of a former SO, and frankly I'm sick of it.  Yeah, it's
    basically true, but so what?  (It's still no excuse to mistreat
    people, and to take relationships and love lightly, because sometimes
    love lasts for 30 or 40 yrs., too, expecially when the two people
    want it to.)
    
    Lorna
     

"Also, there are different kinds of love.  I am all for universal love and for
telling our children, parents, pets, and close friends that we love them.  But,
that's different than saying "I love you" in the context of romantic love."

Is the "love" really different, or just the circumstances and situations?  I
don't feel that my love for my sons is any different then my love for anyone
else.  But then again, I tend to shie away from categorizing my relationships
with people and how I feel about them and stuffing them into little boxes;  They
are what they are.

"I think romantic love should be reserved for the rare times when it's really
true, and if it's never true, or hardly ever true, then maybe we'll just have to
learn to value friendship more."

How do you know?  You will never know when it is *really* true; all you can know
is when it seems to be true, and it can seem to be true after three days as well
as three years.  And if you never say 'i love you' in some way, you will never
make it to three years.  And if you do make it to three years, without saying 'i
love you' and you finally know it's 'real', think of all the 'i love you's that
you and your SO have missed out on.  Very sad.  No, better to have said 'I Love
You' when you meant it and be mistaken then to have missed three years of 'I
Love You's.

"I don't think there's anything wrong with telling people that we love them as
friends or that we're infatuated with them or have a crush on them."

If that's you way you feel, fine, but I wouldn't describe my feelings for people
that I have told that I loved them as infatuation or a crush.

"I think the problem with saying "I love you" to someone we don't know very well
is that "I love you" means different things to different people."

That is a problem. That's why I wouldn't bet my life on knowing the meaning of a
three day 'i love you'.  Love is an experiencial thing.  But I don't think that
that makes that love any less real, or any less deserving to be expressed.

"I also always wonder how meaningful falling in love can be to someone who
blurts it out every time they have a good time with somebody."

It's a common assumption that while not everything that is scarce is valuable,
everything that is valuable is scarce.  I don't believe that this is necessarily
true with a lot of things, especially love.  I believe that value = scarcity is
more of a perception then a truism.  My loving a number of people doesn't make
my love any less meaningfull, valid, or valuable.  It makes my life and others
richer and more meaningfull.  Love is supposed to be something that multiplies
and makes the world beautifull.  It's 'what the world needs more of'.  Or don't
you believe that love multiplies?  Why?

"It's still no excuse to mistreat people, and to take relationships and love
lightly"

I don't believe that I (amoung other people) mistreat people, nor do I (amoung
other people) take relationships or love lightly.  They mean a great deal to me,
and are very important for me to have in my life.  Why is it that you feel that
this means that they are taken lightly, when in fact they are very important to
me (amoung other people)?

Jim.

RE: misunderstanding the meaning of the word "love"

To me, its important take a person fully comprehend what is meant by the word
"love" when you say it to them.....I got burned once when I didn't fully
explain that when I said "I love you" it meant "I feel a very special 
bond with you....you are a very special person to me...you are my 
very special friend".....

Now, when I say "i love you" to someone they know exactly what I mean....and
I rarely have to offer a "clinical definition".....perhaps I'm just choosing
the right people these days?  

RE: all or nothing love

Love is not black and white..its an ever changing, ever growing entity.....
In my personal life, I can't say I love someone romantically, until I first
love them for the friendship that develops between us....Love comes
in degrees, and love never assumes to be anything it isn't.....at least
not for me.

/kath

    re .47, Jim, I don't know you well enough to think you take
    relationships or love lightly, and I don't know anything about you
    in particular to make me think that you do!  :-)  I guess I don't
    understand why you think I would be referring to you, in particular??
     Actually, I was referencing the last paragraph of .43, which reminded
    me very much of what a former SO always says about love and
    relationships.  What I resent, is the tendancy that I have seen
    in the past, for people to mistreat or use another person, dump
    them in a somewhat callous manner, and then when called upon to
    discuss the situation makes vague, philosophical references to the
    fact that love doesn't last forever, just enjoy it for as long as
    it does, and move on....blah, blah, blah   My reaction to that is
    sort, Yeah, fine, love doesn't always last forever, but what does
    that have to do with the fact that you used me and mistreated me?
     Not much, that I can see.  Basically, it's just something from
    my own personal past, and is why I'm sick of hearing people talk
    on and on about how love doesn't last forever!  (No kidding!  I
    think I've noticed!)  
    
    As far as how saying I love you in a romantic situation is different
    than telling our friends and relatives that we love them, well,
    I think it's different in many ways.  I could basically say that
    there are 3 different types of feelings I could have for a man.
     One, I could love him as a friend, but have no desire to have sex
    with him, either because I could take it or leave it, or because
    I found him physically repulsive but still loved him as a person,
    or, two, I could find a man physically attractive, wish I could
    be intimate with him, but know that I don't really love him, or
    three, and most difficult to find, I could simultaneously, love
    a man as a friend, as a person, and also have the hots for him.
     The third is, to me, romantic love, and hardly ever happens.  Usually,
    I either love them only as friends or find them sexually attractive
    but only *like* them as friends.  I hardly ever love somebody that
    I find sexually attractive and so I think of that as romantic love
    and as being rare since it certainly has been for me.  
    
   What makes me think it's real (love) is that first, I feel that it
    is, because I feel that I could have a live-in meaningful long-term
    relationship with the person, and second, I have to also feel it's
    mutual in order to pursue the matter.  And, it takes a while for
    me to be convinced that it's mutual.
    
    To be honest, I have felt for a long time, that what I think of
    as lust or having the hots for somebody is what some people think
    being in love is, and that makes me leary of other's declarations
    of love.
    
    Basically, to me, actually thinking I'm in love with somebody means
    that I would be willing to plan my life with them and live with
    them on a long term basis.  Anything less than that is friendship
    or attraction of some combination or degree.  
    
    Lorna
    

Lorna,

I feel that what you are describing could be applied *inaccurately* to me, and I
wanted to point out to you that what you are saying is inaccurate for me, and
probably for a number of other people.  I don't think that you are picking on
me, particularly. :-)  I'm just saying that things are not always as you seem to
think they are.  I'm not saying anything about your own experience, except that 
it is not universal, that other on-the-surface-similiar but different in meaning
experiences exist.

Why does an expression of love have to be mutual for it to be 'real'?  I
understand that you can be somewhat reluctant to express it, but I don't believe
that it means that it is any less 'real' and any less deserving or being
expressed in some way.

"what I think of as lust ... is what some people think being in love is"

Are you saying that about what I've written?  Why (not)?  I'd like to know what
you think.

I've loved quite a few people that I doubt I could live with, but that didn't
change the way I felt about them.

Jim.

    The problem here seems to be that we all mean something slightly, or
    in some cases greatly, different when we say I love you.

    In my marriage my husband never told me he loved me until about a
    month before we broke up. Isn't that strange? I still don't really
    know what to make of it. Why wait 15 years and then say that when he
    decided to leave? I also still love him in spite of what happened, I
    can't seem to break the habit. The difference, as several have
    pointed out about exspouses, is that I'm no longer "in" love. That
    still leaves a great emptyness in my heart even two years later.

    Perhaps we should forget trying to define what love is or is not and
    go to the poets who so wonderfully tell us what it feels like. Like
    my favorite ee cummings

	    it is at moments after i have dreamed
	    of the rare entertainment of your eyes,
	    when(being no fool to fancy)i have deemed

	    with your peculiar mouth my heart made wise;
	    at moments when the glassy darkness holds
    
    	    the genuine apparition of your smile
	    (it was through tears always)and silence moulds
	    such strangness as was mine a little while;

	    moments when my once more illustrious arms
	    are filled with fascination, when my breast
	    wears the intolerant brightness of your charms:

	    one pierced moment whiter than the rest

	    -turning from the tremendous lie of sleep
	    i watch the roses of the day grow deep


    I can't help it, these things always make me sigh, liesl

    re Jim, the only impression I've gotten about you, from your notes,
    in regard to love, is that you seem to find it easier to love a
    few people/friends a little bit than to love just one person a lot.
     (Well, you did ask, and that's how it sounds to me!)  It seems
    as though you may be be afraid of making a serious, long-term
    commitment to one person (or else just not interested), and that
    instead you have a number of friends whom you say you love.  But,
    there is a limit to how committed a person can be to, say, 5 people.
     I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this lifestyle if it
    seems comfortable to you.  The only time there would be a problem
    would be if you had a female friend who wanted more of you than
    you wanted to give.  (How's that for speculation on the personal
    life of someone I don't even know?!) :-)
    
    Liesl, what a romantic poem.  It makes me sigh, too.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE .50, oh, as far as an expression of love having to be mutual,
    in order for it to be real.  I think love is real even if it's not
    mutual but no relationship is ever going to get off the ground,
    and I don't think love is really satisfying unless it is mutual.
     I think one sided love causes too much pain, so if I feel like
    I'm about to have feelings for someone and they aren't reciprocated
    I immediately attempt to kill those feelings, for the sake of survival.
    
    Lorna
    

re:  Jim B.

Great notes guy!  Worth reading again...  :^)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

re:  lorna  - .46

>>>    re .43, Dwight, what's wrong with giving out a lot of *like*?

Nothing.  But I don't see comparing apples and oranges because even though they
are all fruit, they do taste different.

>>>I think romantic love should be reserved for the rare times when it's really
true, and if it's never true, or hardly ever true, then maybe we'll just have
to learn to value friendship more.  

Problem with this is, we NEVER know when it's true.  Besides, if we can't put
a true handle on love, how can we on "true love."

>>>    Also, re .43, no offense, but I have heard your last paragraph expounded
about a million times in my life, due to the personal philisophy of a former
SO, and frankly I'm sick of it.  Yeah, it's basically true, but so what?  (It's
still no excuse to mistreat people, and to take relationships and love lightly,
because sometimes love lasts for 30 or 40 yrs., too, expecially when the two
people want it to.)

No offense taken.  You did admit the truth to that paragraph.  What I'm getting
from your note is that you are hurt.  You say a former SO spoke this.  Then you
talk about mistreating people and taking relationships lightly... I'm sorry you
are hurting.

However Lorna, it is true.  We can't look at past "loves" as a waste of life. 
We always learn and grow.  And when the magic is gone, we MUST move on.  You
will too.  It's no fun ending a relationship that was once a "burning fire." 

As I look back at past relationships, I MUST look at the positive and focus on
the good times and what I learned from each person that I was able to share my
love with for that time.  I am grateful for the love I've been allowed to give
and receive.

Tomorrow is a new day.  Will I find someone new to love??  Will I tell someone
special that "I love you?"  Kathy G. is right.... you never run out of love. 
You may run your course with a "flame" but you never know what you'll discover
tomorrow!  It may be someone you haven't met, or it could be someone down the
hall and two doors on the left.  :^)

Dwight

The following reply has been contributed by a member of our community who
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				Steve

				




Yes .30, I absolutely agree.  

I had someone who was very, very special to me and at a time when he felt
as is he was completely alone and thought that no one cared, I said to
him "I love you."  And he DID return the words --- several times!!!!  
However, in time, he told me that he loved me "as a friend"........

To me, those words can only be said to someone real special.  I said them
to him cause he was my very best friend and much more.  I could never say
them to someone who was an ordinary friend to me.  As I said, I believe
those words should be "reserved" for someone real special.

Others might "blow the chance" by NOT saying *those words*, but I guess I
blew it by being honest and, at the time, I really believed it was  what
he wanted to hear!

At this time, I feel that I was wrong for being honest.......

"It seems as though you may be be afraid of making a serious, long-term
commitment to one person. But, there is a limit to how committed a person can be
to, say, 5 people."

Yes, but there is no limit to how much you can love 5 people.  Love and
commitment are not the same for me.  Are they for you?  Why?  Why is it that if
I love more then one person, you think there must be some problem?  In my mind,
it's the people who will only love one person who have the problem, and have
taken the easy road.  Why is it that if I love 'someone else', 'you' think  'he
must not love me'?

Commitment?  What is commitment?  If it means that I will always love them, and
be there for them when they need me, and will always want to continue our
relationship; I have no problem with that, I've felt that for a number of
people.

The problem comes when the clause 'no one else' comes into the picture.  Why
should I give up a world of people for one person?  Why can't I have both?  I
understand that it's purpose is to strengthen the 'commitment', and give you
nowhere else to go, but it's definitely not worth it in my book.

Jim.

>>.54>However Lorna, it is true.  We can't look at past "loves" as a waste of life. 
>>.54>We always learn and grow.  And when the magic is gone, we MUST move on.  You

>>    	Why can't you do both?
    
>>    	View it as tragic, or a waste, and still move on.
    
>>    -mike z


Once again the "Z-Man" makes an excellent observation.  I was locked in on one
thought.  But Mike is right... you can call it a waste as well.  The important
thing is to get on with your life.  Replace a negative with a positive.

Dwight

<To the "anonymous noter" of .56>

>>I had someone who was very, very special to me and at a time when he felt as
is he was completely alone and thought that no one cared, I said to him "I love
you."  And he DID return the words --- several times!!!!   However, in time, he
told me that he loved me "as a friend"........

Perhaps the love fizzled.  Perhaps something stepped in the way.  Perhaps he
loved you, but not as strongly as he knew he should.  Perhaps.  I don't know
the circumstances.  Perhaps you don't know them either, really. (?)

>>To me, those words can only be said to someone real special.  I said them to
him cause he was my very best friend and much more.  

Perhaps he thought you were also someone real special.  Perhaps you were his
best friend as well???  ... and more ...

>>I could never say them to someone who was an ordinary friend to me.  As I
said, I believe those words should be "reserved" for someone real special.

I agree.  I won't usually say them to an "ordinary" friend, although I might
today.  But now you get into an area in which you describe as "someone real
special."  How do we define that phrase???  And is finding someone "real
special" like looking for a needle in a hay stack??  And if it is, will you
"ever" find someone with whom you can say, "I love you." ???

>>Others might "blow the chance" by NOT saying *those words*, but I guess I
>>blew it by being honest and, at the time, I really believed it was  what
>>he wanted to hear!

So you didn't mean them??  Is that what you mean by "I really believed it was
what he wanted to hear!"????

If so, then it was best that you both "moved ahead" with your lives.

Best wishes,

Dwight

This is the "anonymous noter" of .56

Dwight, thanks for responding.

Perhaps if you knew a little bit more about the situation, it might be
easier for you to understand.

>Perhaps the love fizzled.  Perhaps something stepped in the way.  Perhaps he
>loved you, but not as strongly as he knew he should.  Perhaps.  I don't know
>the circumstances.  Perhaps you don't know them either, really. (?)

During the years (over 9 now) that I've know him, twice his girlfriend
deceived him and left him.   When she was "out of the picture", he'd draw
me closer and appear as if he wanted my emotional support and love, which
I truly wanted to give to him.  I wanted to show him that I was ALWAYS
there for him and that there was someone who truly cared about him and
loved him.  And yes, he did return the emotional support and love.
However, after we become very close and shared, what I'd call, a very
special love, he decided to give her another chance, thinking that she
might have changed.  Well, I told him fine, but I was going to keep my
distance cause I didn't want to hear or be around "when" she hurts him
again.  Cause in the past, whenever she hurt him, it hurt me to see him
hurt.  I just couldn't go through that again.  I knew all along that it
would fail again between them, but I had to give him the space in order
for him to see it himself.

>Perhaps he thought you were also someone real special.  Perhaps you were his
>best friend as well???  ... and more ...

I know that I was his best friend.  He has told many of his friends that
I have been the only person in his life who has ever taken the time to
"listen" to him and to give a hoot about him.

>I agree.  I won't usually say them to an "ordinary" friend, although I might
>today.  But now you get into an area in which you describe as "someone real
>special."  How do we define that phrase???  And is finding someone "real
>special" like looking for a needle in a hay stack??  And if it is, will you
>"ever" find someone with whom you can say, "I love you." ???

I believe those words should only be said to someone whom you do want to
spend the rest of your life with and I truly felt that way about him.
Yes, that person would have to be real special before I say it again.

>So you didn't mean them??  Is that what you mean by "I really believed it was
>what he wanted to hear!"????

Of course I meant those words.  It took me about 8 years to feel
confident enough to say them.  I KNEW that he would return those words,
otherwise I wouldn't have chanced saying them.  That's why I said "I
really believed it was what he wanted to hear!"  If I didn't feel that
way, I wouldn't have said them.  I guess  in all sincerity, at this time
I'm not sorry for saying them cause I truly meant them.


>If so, then it was best that you both "moved ahead" with your lives.

Will we ever "move ahead" and be completely separated????  

We are still speaking to one another, but not in person.  In fact just
the other week, we were joking about one of our former arguments and
saying how "funny" it is that after all we've been through, we are still
able to laugh about the "silly fights" we've had.  Well, we both agreed
that it's because of the all trust and respect we've had for one another.
Something, by the way, that is missing from his relationship with her.
Well, to me, trust and respect is the very, very, very most important
thing and if you don't have that, you don't have anything!


Thanks for listening.  And, all responses to this particular note has
helped!

    Re .57, Jim, yes, you can have both, as long as you can find the
    people to have both with!  :-)  But, you just have to accept the
    fact that you may run across some women who interest you, who will
    not be interested in that set-up.  I don't think there's anything
    wrong with it (your way) either.  I didn't think I ever said there was.
    
    But, I also don't think there's anything wrong with two people deciding
    to try to make a long term monogamous commitment to each other either.
    It depends on what life style makes a person happy.
    
    What do I think commitment is?  I think there are different levels
    of commitment.  Between friends I can make a commitment that I'll
    always be there for them if they need someone to talk to, or if
    they need a ride at 2 in the morning, etc.  But, to me, a commitment
    between two lovers in a long-term serious relationship would ideally
    mean that they have promised to put each other first (except for
    possible children) before any other friends that either of them
    have, and that they will not plan to have sex with any other friends,
    and that they will plan to spend the rest of their lives together.
     To put it very simply, I could say that commitment between a couple
    means marriage, a house, and kids. :-)   Why?  Because that's the
    way I like it, that's why.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re Dwight, just to let you know, I have moved on, and I'm not currently
    "hurting."  Two years ago I was upset for a couple of months, but
    I have moved on.  (I'd say it was partly a waste, but not completely.)
    It's just that that last paragraph triggered a long forgotten memory!
    (well, forgotten for awhile anyway)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    There is a woman...she fights a solitary battle with MS and sometimes
    wins...and often loses...I love her for her for her courage and her
    fear; and her ability to just "live" in spite of both.
    
    There is a man...he fights himself a good deal of the time, but he is
    loyal and blythe...and although his simplicity is sometimes
    frustrating, his freshness is intoxicating...and I love him.
    
    There is woman...she is by happen-stance my sister...but I love her in
    spite of that anyway.
    
    There is a man...who devours himself with yearnings and regrets. But he
    has supported me when I needed a shoulder and a hand. I love him.
    
    And I love my husband and my son.
    
    This discussion of when saying "Ilove you" is appropriate offends my
    sense of rightness [surely only *my* sense, I am inferring no
    judgement, only stating how *I* feel].
    
    If I feel love...in whatever shape and form love is taking on that
    particular day...should I not reach out and share it with the person
    who engendered the feeling? Don't we all need to know that more than
    "just that special person"...especially those of us who may not *have*
    a special person at the time...are also capable of elliciting love from
    another person?
    
    It seems to me...[muddled as I sometimes am]...that the disappointments
    and disillusionments touched on in this note have nothing to do with
    saying "I love you"...they have to do with *expectation* of what the
    results of having *heard* "I love you" are.
    
    Perhaps if we all heard the words a little more often...free of
    expectations of "till death do us part"...but just the simple caring
    thoughts...we would not need to pile so many pre-determined outcomes on
    this simple phrase of human caring.
    
    I keep hearing in here..."she didn't"..."he didn't"...I thought love
    was something you gave away yourself...not something you expected in
    return for services rendered...or payments [I love you] made.
    
    I love those people that I love...because they *are* who they are...not
    because they love me back...in fact I know for certain that a couple of
    them do/can not return love...but I love them anyway...I am not keeping
    count.
    
    Melinda
    

RE: .64
    
>    It seems to me...[muddled as I sometimes am]...that the disappointments
>    and disillusionments touched on in this note have nothing to do with
>    saying "I love you"...they have to do with *expectation* of what the
>    results of having *heard* "I love you" are.


	 Exactly..........I couldn't have expressed my feelings
	 better.....thanks for filling in the words for me...

	  /kath

    Good thoughts come from small packages....thanks Mel!

    
    Too many times the words, "I love you" are spoken and never meant.
    That's the only time that it's not,"chic" or, "in style."
    Love isn't, "never having to say your sorry" either. The words must
    be meant, it's a giving of yourself to another person. Not physically
    but emotionally. I loved my ex-boyfriend but we grew apart. The
    love didn't die it just changed as we did. Being able to say them
    and hearing them is one of the greatest gifts a person has to give. 
    Actions don't always speak louder than words but they help. Sometimes
    it isn't always easy to say them. Yeah it is nice when you do something
    for someone you love or who loves you. It's like saying,"hey I love
    you and this is my way of showing it or reminding you that I'm here
    for you" 
    
    As to love at first sight, yeah I believe in it. My parents are
    perfect examples of it. My mom looked at my dad and told all her
    friends that, that was the guy she was gonna marry. Sure enough
    3 mons later the were engaged and 6 mons after that, married. They 
    have been married for almost 30 yrs now. So how can I not believe
    in it. 
    
    But I also believe that love is something that has to be nutured
    and worked at it if you want it to grow. It's easy to give but 
    hardest of all to keep. I don't know maybe I sound like I'm 
    lecturing I don't mean to and I apologise for it. :*) 
    
    Beth