Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The best wedding speeches are usually SHORT and sweet, so the golden
    rule is not to ramble on.
    You say you have known the groom for some time, so why not relate
    back to some of the funnier  incidences you have known, and perhaps
    if you have also known him through his relationship with the bride
    there may be a few tails of their courtship.
    
    So, basically mention a bit about the grooms past, something about
    the bride and grooms courtship, any funnies you can think of and
    then just wish them both all the love and happiness they both deserve.
    
    Hope there's something in here that will help you.
              
    Fran.
    

    I'd be real careful about things like wishing them "many wonderful
    children" even *if* you are absolutely certain they want children. What
    if they are infertile together? Then that memory of your toast will
    hurt. Also be careful if you tell humorous stories, I know I would have
    been upset to be embarrassed by some stupid things I have done which
    would have made a "good story".

    I like the idea of short and sweet, wishing things like happiness,
    love, and joy as they travel through life together. Something like
    that.

    Tamzen

    
    We just got married in May.  Our best man said something like:
    
    	"First of all I'd like to thank everyone for being here and
    	 joining in on this joyous occasion with Tom and Denise.  (corny)
    
    	 Tom and I go way back.  We've been very close friends for several
    	 years now.  We went to college together, did such and such
    	 together, etc. and we know each other very well.  I can honestly
    	 say that I've never seen him so happy until he met Denise.
    	
    	 I'd like everyone to make a toast to Tom and Denise and wish
    	 them many, many years of happiness."
        
    
    Something like that.  8^)
    

	I was Best Man for one of my oldest friends.  The toast I used was:


	Health! Happiness! Longevity!



						--D

    

    	"May they always be as warm as toast!"
    
    Ken

    How about:
    
    "May the most that you expect from life be the least that you receive."
    
    rsb

    
    Having recently gone through the same situation with being the best man
    at my brothers wedding, here is what I said.
    
    "To my brother, my best friend,
    
    To ______ his new wife ,
    
    I wish you happiness , joy and love,
    
    And may your love for each other grow with each passing day."
    
    
    Hope this helps. 
    
    Regards,
    
    Dave
    

    I recently went to a wedding, where the best man gave the toast.  Only,
    it was more of a speech than a toast.  He went on for at least 10
    minutes, and told stories about people I didn't know, and 'in-jokes'
    which were not in the best of taste.  The grooms friends at the head
    table thought it was great, and were rolling in the aisles.  But I
    thought it was inappropriate.  Incidentally, he forgot to thank the
    brides parents for putting the whole thing on; I thought he could
    have put something in, since they were spending about $30,000 for the
    thing.
               -Brian

    I guess for $30,000 you get more for your money???
    
    I don't even remember the toast from our wedding -- it was
    something on the order of .7, I think.  So I don't think you need
    to sweat it too much.
    
    --bonnie

    
    The best man at my sister's wedding let this one fly...
    
    "May all your ups and downs be between the sheets"

    not recommended.
    
    -sj

    
    Thanks for all the great tips, some of them started my imagination
    going.
    
    The grooms sister suggested,
    
    	'May you both grow old on the same pillow.'
    
    Unfortunatly, since my friend met his bride to be, we have not seen
    as much of each other or our SOs during the last few years as we would
    have liked, consequently I have few stories of thier courtship to
    relate.
    
    	
    RC

    My brother was married last fall and the best men said something along
    the lines of .8's toast and I thought it was very touching. Something
    about how he had been best friends with my brother since kindergarten
    and he had never seen him as happy as he had been since he met his
    wife. Gives me tingles just thinking about it.
    
    Debbie
    

    My brother_in_law_to_be's best man had a great toast.  I don't have
    the exact words but what he did was write a short, humorous poem.
    It was cute, had comments about the couple in love, a couple of
    humorous comments on each of them (known and in good taste), and
    ended something like...
    
    "... and please don't make me do this again."
    
    It was great.

    My family toast...
    
       Here's to your good health
       And you family's good health
       May you live long and prosper.
    
    My mother wrote 3 part harmonies to this and she and my two aunts
    sang this for my wedding.
    
    Nanci

    At our wedding, the best man used a little bit of humor in the toast,
    and also added some seriousness by wishing us a long and loving
    marriage.  One thing he did that I appreciated was to write down the
    toast so he wouldn't forget it, and he gave it to me later.  I keep it
    with my wedding things as a nice reminder.  And my parents as well as a
    few of the guests remarked on what a nice toast it was.
    
    Another one that I thought was great was used at my cousin's wedding
    and went something like "Today was the easy part.  All your tomorrows
    will be the best part."
    
    Cathy

    How about this.  To so and so.  "May you both never want as long
    as you live, and may you live as long as you want."

    -17
    
    Larry,
    
    You're right but Mom wrote the toast when she was a teenager back
    in the 40's.  A little before Spock's time.
    
    Nanci

    I gave a toast at my best friends wedding the ending line was " but
    what I dont understand is if *I'm* the best man how come *he* got the 
    girl?" it recieved quite a laugh.
    
    
    -j

    Re: .21
    
    I'd be cautious about making a remark such as that - the groom might
    start to wonder if there's something behind it if he's the suspicious
    type. :-)
    
    				Steve

    A friend who works for a catering company tells this one:
    
    Big wedding, well over 200 guests.  As the reception wore on the
    groom got up to give a little speech (not really a toast), and here's
    what he said:
    
    "I want to thank you all for coming and helping to make this a very
    special occasion.  (Reaching into his pocket and producing some
    papers and looking verrrry lovingly at his new wife) I have here
    two tickets to the Bahamas for a week of wonderful honeymoon, and
    I'd like to present them to my lovely wife....(long pause) and my
    best man, with whom she's been having an affair for the past six
    weeks!"
    
    It took a while for everyone to figure out how to bow out gracefully
    :^):^).

Re: .23

Another urban legend - but certainly amusing!

		Steve

    
    "may you enjoy your journey together as long as it lasts!"
    
    or...
    
    "have fun."
    
    

>	What a defeatist outlook.


	 no, more like what a realistic outlook......life is not a
	 bowl of cherries, why make it seem to be?

	 kath

    I agree, Mike.  When my daughter was born I got a baby card that
    said, "Congratulations it's a girl!  Before you know it she'll be
    sleeping around town!"  That sentiment has stuck with me since then.
    I'm really starting to dread the teenage years!
    
    Nanci

    Nanci,
    
    That's *awful*!  Is the person that sent that a *friend*?
    
    Carol
    

    Unfortunately, some people, and much of the greeting card industry,
    have absolutely no taste.  I'll bet the sender thought the card was
    funny.
    
    
    I too would be appalled to hear a toast such as Rik suggests at a
    wedding.  To me, a wedding symbolizes a commitment that the couple
    is making to each other, that they want to share a life together and
    want it to last forever.  (At least that's what it would mean to
    me.)  Though one can't argue with the statistics that half of all
    marriages eventually fail (if my memory serves), that should not
    imply that a defeatist approach is acceptable.
    
    If it were me making the toast, I'd wish the couple love and joy
    throughout their life together.  Sometimes, wishes can come true.
    
    					Steve

.31>    I too would be appalled to hear a toast such as Rik suggests at a
>    wedding.  To me, a wedding symbolizes a commitment that the couple
>    is making to each other, that they want to share a life together and
>    want it to last forever.


	 Although I would never make the toast Rik mentioned, it is a
	 realistic one...and with the right couple, at the right
	 wedding, it would be very appropriate...(especially a couple
	 that holds the same beliefs that Rik does...)

	 I would always like to hope that if I get married it would
	 last a long time, if not forever, but there are quite a few
	 marriages going on today in which the word "forever" is never
	 mentioned nor implied.

	 And however distasteful it seems, to some people, this would
	 be a much welcome toast!
	 

>  marriage fail

	 To some people a marriage doesn't "fail" it just grows beyond
	 each other, and each grows toward different ways.  I would
	 have a hard time calling a divorce a "failure"....more like a
	 "readjustment of ideals and desires"...

	 I'm rambling now.... :-)

	 kath

Rik's first toast is in very bad taste, regardless of how
'realistic' it is. How different is it from a birthday wish: "Enjoy
your miserable, dreary life, because soon you will be dead?"? 

As to his second wish, why not? Married life **can** (and should) be
great fun. Why would anyone want to (as opposed to 'have to') get 
married, if if wasn't? 


-- Ron

RE: .34

Well, Steve, I guess we'll differ on this one. 

You're saying that "Enjoy your birthday, because soon you will
be dead?" is OK, as long as the person shares the belief that
eventually, they are going to die... 

Most people taking the oath of matrimony actually expect it to last
a long time (either forever or longer). After all, the purpose of a
toast is to promote good feelings. To me, Rik's toast leaves
something to be desired in that department. 

I like you own toast suggestion much better. 

-- Ron 

> were it Rik being married, that he'd find it in very good taste.
    
    Rik get married, now that is funny...

>You're saying that "Enjoy your birthday, because soon you will
>be dead?" is OK, as long as the person shares the belief that
>eventually, they are going to die...

	 that's not the same analogy at all.....death implies
	 something bad......

	 separating/divorcing does not have to be a "bad" experience.
	 people grow away from each other, love turns different
	 directions....and many couples feel that marriage is
	 something they want right now, but you never know what they
	 future may bring.

	 I think I would probably take a slight offense (everyone that
	 knows me, knows I don't take offense to much) to someone
	 making the toast connotating "forever" at my wedding....I
	 would rather be realistic and live for now, than live for 20
	 years later in my life.

	 moving apart from each other is not bad.......it's a part of
	 life, if it was so "bad" over 50% of the people currently
	 married would not be getting divorced....its a natural part
	 of the evolution of our society, and should not be treated as
	 if it were not.

	 kath

    Well, I think anyone who invited Rik to make a toast at their wedding
    and expected something in a different vein from what he suggested
    really ought to have their head examined. Rik knows who he is, has the
    courage of his convictions, and doesn't pussy-foot around.
    
    It's no worse than saying "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may" except that
    the terms are a little different.
    
    	Jon

    I think a wedding and reception is the time to celebrate the love that
    two people have for each other.  When I get married in May, I hope the
    best man gives a nice toast in which any reference to the length of our
    marriage is "for the rest of our lives," anything less would be upsetting 
    to me.
    
    I agree with most of the people here that something short and sweet is
    the best way to go. 
    
    I am curious, you said you were not the best man, does he know that 
    he is not making the toast and does that bother him?  I know that is up
    to the Groom, I was just wondering...
    
    
    Mary   

    re .35
    
    "You're saying that "Enjoy your birthday, because soon you will
     be dead?" is OK,. . ." 
    
    Nope.  I'm saying that I think Rik's first toast wouldn't be,
    to put it in your words, ". . .in very bad taste, regardless 
    of how 'realistic' it is." (.33) if the people assembled
    (particularly the bride and groom) were people who shared his
    beliefs.  Rik's first toast was:
    
    "may you enjoy your journey together as long as it lasts!"
    
    Neither Rik nor I ever said anything about birthdays; the
    birthday analogy was yours alone.  My only suggestion was that
    Rik's first toast would be in perfectly good taste to those
    with his viewpoint (somewhat unusual, but hardly unique).
    
    Steve
    
    Side note:
    
    "Most people taking the oath of matrimony actually expect it to last
    a long time (either forever or longer)."
    
    Yow!  *Longer* than "forever"?!?  Dang!  That just might outlast
    my Maytag. . .
    

    
    re .43
    
    
    Just wondering....if the bride and the groom shared Rik's beliefs,
    would there have been a wedding at which to give the toast?
    
    
    Personally, I think it's a matter of keeping such thoughts to yourself.
    I don't think the bride and groom need to be reminded of what the chances
    are for a successful marriage.  The media bombards us with all the
    statistics.  
    
    
    Kris
    
      

    Re: .44
    
         I agree.  Anyone that cynical should not even BOTHER to get
    married.  It's rough enough for those who believe that a long marriage
    is possible.
    
                                         Greg

>          <<< Note 836.45 by DEC25::BRUNO "The Shropshire Slasher!" >>>
    
>         I agree.  Anyone that cynical should not even BOTHER to get


	 But Greg......tsk tsk...its only cynical in your viewpoint,
	 and the viewpoint of, yes, a big majority....but to Rik...it
	 not cynical at all!

	 I don't find it cynical either.....and I serious doubt that
	 I'm a cynical type of gal.......

	 Sometimes it's nice to live in a fantasy world...and think
	 that everything will last forever.......but its just not
	 realistic........

	 There is a difference between being cynical and being
	 realistic.  Cynical would mean not eating the 32 scoop
	 ice-cream sunday because you know you would get fat, while
	 realistic would mean eating what you felt was appropriate...

	 How come I see so many people gorging themselves on the whole
	 thing, then complaining when they get sick?

	 kath

     Try this one.  The cynic and the person willing to try both enter the 
Pikes Peak Marathon.   Before they even start, the cynic is moaning about how
(s)he never wins the race.  A while later, they hit that inevitable
oxygen-deprived state.  The cynic throws up his/her hands and gives up.
The hopeful at least gives the effort to make it through the hard times, and
finishes in the top 100.  

     As far as the cynic goes.  Why even bother showing up at the starting
line.  The hopeful individual at least has a REALISTIC chance of finishing.

                                 Greg

    I promised I wouldn't get myself involved in another one of these
    discussions but then again I promised myself I would never wear
    boxer shorts.
    
    Anyone who gets married without considering the possibility of a
    divorce is too naive to be getting married.  Contingency plans have to
    be considered and the looming spectre of any outcome, good, bad or
    ugly, can't be ignored.  The liklihood of your house burning down is
    much less than the liklihood of a marriage ending in divorce and yet
    most people insure their homes and the property therein. They have
    considered the impact of a bad outcome. 
    
    A toast like that proposed by Rik at worst would raise some eyebrows.
    At best, it would give the couple a reminder that, rather than closing
    their eyes and dreaming and hoping, they'd be further ahead to open
    their eyes and work towards a happy and long-lasting marriage, if such
    a thing exists. (I couldn't resist that one) 
    
    Kris

    Re: .48
    
         I can almost agree with you, if you change that "at worst" part to
    include the possibility of a lost friend, or at least never being
    invited to another special event with the couple.
    
                                         Greg

    
>         I can almost agree with you, if you change that "at worst" part to
>    include the possibility of a lost friend, or at least never being
>    invited to another special event with the couple.


	 Actually, if a couple asked someone of this belief to make
	 the toast (usually the best man,....someone you know
	 intimately) they should expect a toast like that.

	 When my friends bring me back to reality for a minute, I
	 doubt I would get rid of them because of it.....as far as I
	 see it the toast was realistic not fantasy, but it was also
	 in good taste.....

	 Don't want a toast like that?  Don't ask someone like Rik to
	 give it! :-)

	 k

         If it WAS reality, I wouldn't mind being brought back to it.
    
                                     Greg

I sense a serious rathole here, but --being un realistic-- I ignore 
it and forge ahead...


>	that's not the same analogy at all..... ("Enjoy your
>	birthday, because soon you will dead?")death implies
>	something bad....

For many people just getting married, the prospect of divorce 
denotes something bad. What I really had in mind was the unsavory
'realistic' tone.


>	separating/divorcing does not have to be a "bad" experience.

first: a marriage that's based on this concept stands a better
chance of ending in separation than a marriage that is founded on
the **intention** of longevity. 

Second: having never experienced it, I know nothing about divorce.
But of all the people I know who got/are-getting divorced, only one
person did not find it 'a bad thing'. To others, it ranged from
endurable misery to unendurable misery (leading in one case to a
successful suicide). Even in this notefile, divorce is not discussed
fondly by the people who should know. 

Now, Rik seems happy with his serially monogamous relationships and
so must be others (come to think of it, so was I, for a period in my 
life), but I suspect such people are in a minority and, generally, 
do not get married. Once they do, they usually have longevity in 
mind.


>	I think I would probably take a slight offense ... to someone
>	making the toast connotating "forever" at my wedding...

But why? Their wish would be to save you from that misery that seems 
to accompany most divorces.


>	... if it was so "bad" over 50% of the people currently
>	married would not be getting divorced...

This reminded me of the scene in 'Candide', where the professor is
asked why --if marriage is such a blessed state-- do people get
divorced. His reply is that being married is such a delight, these
people wish to do it over and over again... 

Well, as bad as divorce is, it has to be better than an unhappy
marriage. That, however, does not make it 'not bad'. Getting a tooth 
pulled is better than leaving it in to rot; but that doesn't make 
the extraction any more fun.


RE: .43,
    
>	I'm saying that I think Rik's first toast wouldn't be,
>	to put it in your words, ". . .in very bad taste, regardless 
>	of how 'realistic' it is." (.33) if the people assembled
>	(particularly the bride and groom) were people who shared his
>	beliefs.

No argument, but that's a big 'if'. I am under the impression (and 
so are others here) that people who share Rik's beliefs constitute a 
small minority. Those who hold those beliefs and get married anyway 
are in a small minority of the minority...


>	Yow!  *Longer* than "forever"?!?  Dang!  That just might
>	outlast my Maytag. . .

I suppose I should have included a smiley face or two... 'Forever' is
a function of age. As we grow ol... I mean, mature, we realize there
ain't no such animal. From 'Gigi': 

	And even if love comes through the door,
	The kind that lasts forevermore,
	'Forevermore' seems shorter than before.
	Oh, I'm so glad
	That I'm not young
	Any more.
    

RE: .50,

>	Don't want a toast like that?  Don't ask someone like Rik to
>	give it! :-)

Which is the best response, so far. The only one, I presume, both 
Rik and myself would be in agreement with.

-- Ron

         Oh well.  For the mere sake of the couple being joined, the best
    policy would seem to be to leave your own views on marriage out of the
    toast.  Just wish your friends happiness in their endeavor, and leave
    cynicism and "forever" out of your comments.
    
                                       Greg

>                       <<< Note 836.52 by APEHUB::RON >>>

>first: a marriage that's based on this concept stands a better
>chance of ending in separation than a marriage that is founded on
>the **intention** of longevity. 

	 I disagree EMMENSELY with you on this issue.....So many times
	 I see people that married and expected it to be a bed of
	 roses, and when things go bad, boing!  they've split!  And I
	 see those that are realistic about life, living it day by
	 day...and these are the ones that I see working things
	 out....

	 I believe, Ron, you're equating realistic outlooks with
	 superficial, non-caring attitudes.  Most of the people I know
	 with realistic outlooks on life, are also the ones that care
	 more deeply, and make more thoughtful, concious decisions.

	 Realistic people are the one's I'm seeing taking the time to
	 make sure a relationship has a solid base....fantasizers are
	 the ones I am seeing meeting and getting married almost
	 immediately. (And I realise that these are not the "only
	 categories")....

	 I have a friend that is getting married in December, and she
	 took a full 4 days to make the decision after she met
	 him...and, I hope she'll be happy "forever", but I can't help
	 wondering when I ask her what the rush is and she says "it
	 feels right, and I like the idea of being married".

	 Yes, this is a rathole.....but marriage is not a "flippant"
	 thing........accepting the possibility that you may not be
	 together "forever" doesn't mean that you'll drop it all at
	 the first tiff......

	 Being realistic is important.......at least in my eyes.

	 kath
	 

    
    Forgive me, but I fail to see how or why optimism is automatically
    equated with fantasy.  Of course, this is digressing from the topic
    of this note.  Perhaps we should begin a new topic?
    
        
    Kris    

    Re 52, Ron says that Rik seems happy with his "serially monogamous
    relationships" but I can't help but wonder just how many of the
    other people who have been involved in these little exploits have
    been as happy.  (or maybe I'm just the over sensitive type) :-)
    
    Whether love lasts forever or it doesn't, doesn't have a hell of
    a lot to do with using other people and messing up their lives,
    IMHO.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .53

    > Oh well.  For the mere sake of the couple being joined, the best policy
    > would seem to be to leave your own views on marriage out of the toast. 
    > Just wish your friends happiness in their endeavor, and leave cynicism
    > and "forever" out of your comments.
        

    Agreed!!!  I see nothing wrong with realism at a wedding.  Many times
    I've heard clergy-people remind the bride and groom  that there will
    surely be tough times ahead, and that they will have to work *very
    hard* to have a successful marriage.  In the Jewish tradition, when a
    glass is broken at the end of the ceremony, it symbolizes (among other
    things) how fragile a marriage really is, and how difficult it is to
    put back together what has been destroyed.

    I don't think, however, that a toast which assumes the marriage to be
    temporary is either tasteful or kind.  Most intelligent people getting
    married know the odds, and are probably nervous enough about the
    tremendous step that they're taking as it is.  A toast that wishes a
    couple happiness and joy in their life together (no "forever," no
    "while it lasts"), serves the purpose nicely.

    Sarah

    having just gotten married (july 30)...with a moderate reception
    (100 guestst) brenda and i asked both our fathers to propose a toast.
    
    her father spoke first, for about 3 minutes, in an endearing, humorous
    way; remembering his "apple cheeked daughter" and sort of both
    reminiscing and looking towards our future at the same time.  
    
    my dad then spoke for about 4 minutes (neither man had a script),
    also with humor.  he briefly recounted his favorite memories of
    my youth with him, and then spoke of the future.
    
    i remember both toasts very fondly and enjoy watching them on our
    video of the event.  
    
    don't worry about being formal or proper.  just say what you feel,
    and take as much time as you need.  everyone will enjoy the moment
    with you.
    
    tony