Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    It sounds like your friend is in serious need of counselling of
    some sort.  If he's got a high-visibility, high-stress job, he
    might be afraid that seeking counselling would be seen as a sign
    of failure (by himself if not by others).  Would he consider
    seeing another kind of counsellor -- perhaps a pastor, priest, or
    rabbi, depending on his religion?  Or perhaps a doctor? 
    
    Depression is nothing to fool around with -- believe me, I've been
    there.  When you're in the middle of it, you really aren't
    perceiving things correctly, and it becomes even harder to make
    decisions.  Not being able to make decisions increases the stress
    you're putting on yourself, makes you less able to function, and
    you start thinking less of yourself for not even being able to
    decide where to have lunch, and so on down in a vicious cycle. 
    But counselling can help you break the cycle; some people also
    need medication, either temporarily or permanently.
    
    Are you friends with your friend's wife?  Is she aware that her
    marriage is in jeopardy? 
    
    --bonnie

    RE .-1
       No, I'm not friends with his wife but she does know her marriage is
    in trouble. He has had several discussions with her about what he feels
    is wrong and why he's unhappy to try and work things out but she either
    gets defensive, accusatory or starts crying. They aren't communicating
    at all so I don't really see much hope for their marriage. I really
    don't know why he won't consider counselling, but you may be right that
    he sees it as some sort of failure, he's even said he feels like he's
    failed at his marriage. I think he's showing the classic signs of
    depressive behavior and I'm worried about what he might do.
    
    Thanks for the input
    

It is very difficult when a man feels he has done his best for a marriage,
has given up a lot of himself and cannot make his wife understand his side
of it it is depressing. 
I know lot's of people in this file talk about counseling, there are many
people who distrust councilors due to bad previous experiences or knowledge
of councilors(I personally have never met one that I didn't think was
more screwed-up than I am :-}) or a councilor that might be "acceptable" to
the wife might not be acceptable to the man, (she might only want a religious
person and he may not believe to that extent).

The best you can do is support him and keep track of him, if he acts
strangely spend time with him. The thoughts of giving up family life
and sons is extremely painful and a fear of loneliness is very powerful
your friend may need to know that he has friends and be reminded that
a divorce is not the end of seeing his children although it will change
that relationship it can still be a good one.

he is not alone in his dilema 
Amos

    You are only looking at one side of the equation, if you really want to
    help him, you HAVE GOT to sit down and talk to his wife also. Then you can
    make any statements regarding the status or future of his marriage.
    
    Good Luck!!

    
    It is very difficult to be cut out of the lives of your wife and your
    children without your cooperation.  
    
    I would suggest that he spend some quality time with his children.  I 
    assume that where you are school is still out.  I would suggest a
    small excersion with just he and the kids (or at least the 9 yr. old)
    Perhaps a camping trip or some such.
    
    Reading between the lines on his DEC-Stress,and high visibility job,
    along with the wifes defensiveness... He may have spent more time
    connecting with DEC than with his children.  I am not placing blame,
    I am simply saying that his wife may have had no other choice but to
    have created a life for herself and for her children, and now it seems
    that she is being blamed for it.
    
    I may be off the mark here but there is a relatively simple test:
    How many of his childrens *life events* has the father been involved
    in. ie, 1st walks, 1st fights, 1st cuts, 1st questions, games, plays,
    school related events, tears, etc....  The father does not have to 
    be invited into these events.... They are his to share if he is there.
    
    I would suggest that if he cannot convince the wife to let him have the
    kids for a small excersion that they all go together and that he
    concentrate on connecting with the children and not on he and his
    wifes' problems.  The kids will be less defensive and there is a
    greater chance for a quick connection with out the associated hang-ups
    that go with dealing with a defensive spouse.
    
    The best medicine for depression is connection with a fellow
    humanbeing.  If he could accomplish this with his children his wife may
    come around.
    
    Good Luck.
    
    David.

>             <<< Note 821.5 by DPD03::HEASTON "Thunderdome Hero" >>>
>                       -< You have to be There To Share >-

    
    
>    I may be off the mark here but there is a relatively simple test:
>    How many of his childrens *life events* has the father been involved
>    in. ie, 1st walks, 1st fights, 1st cuts, 1st questions, games, plays,
>    school related events, tears, etc....  The father does not have to 

And how many times do men miss these events because they are working to 
support this family? how many times are they trying to do the right thing 
because the wife wants to stay home and raise the kids so the husband works 
two jobs for 10 years so trhat there will be enough money to get by and then
discovers he has been pushed aside.  and here comes a really sexist
comment but,,,, when women take time from work to go see the kids school
play people accept that and don't even think twice about it, let a man do it
and he is ridiculed and/or called to account for taking time from work. evebn 
when he has the f'ing vacation time.

how about when a man spends lots of time with the kids, camping, teaching them 
skills and still he is pushed aside?

Amos

    re: .5, .6
    
    .6 has pegged it. He has been there for the children as much as
    possible. He's active in sports with them, scouting, taking them to
    movies and "dinner out" with just himself and the kids because his wife
    doesn't want to come along. He has spend a good deal of the past few
    years working hard to support his family even though his wife continues
    to say they don't have enough to make ends meet (she doesn't work
    outside of the home). I think its the opposite of .5's reasoning, he
    immersed himself in work because his wife wouldn't include him in her
    life. It was always the kids. She won't go out for even an evening with
    just the two of them because she doesn't want to leave the kids, and
    mention a weekend or vacation with just the two of them and you might
    as well have asked for the moon. Yes, I am only getting one side of it,
    so I can't verify these things aren't biased. But rather than analyze
    the status of their marriage, I'm mostly concerned about his
    stress-level and if he's heading for a big crash. He has said that if
    it wasn't for the children, he would already have left, so I'm assuming
    that this isn't something that has just come up recently, I think its
    just gotten beyond tolerable limits lately and he doesn't see any hope
    for improvement in the long run. 
    
    Thanks for all the input.
    

    re: .7
    
    It sounds like you're right to be more concerned about his mental
    health than anything else at this point.  Whatever the rights and
    the wrongs of it (and in a divorce there's usually more than
    enough fault to go around), marriages do end and the participants
    usually survive.  People don't always survive depression.
    
    Speaking from experience again -- if he says anything at all, so
    much as one word, about contemplating suicide, get professional
    help fast -- call a hotline or something.  I know this is a scary
    thing to think about, but if he is clinically depressed, he won't
    be joking.  
    
    He might not be that depressed; I'm only guessing.  He's certainly
    in a situation where he has enough reason to feel unhappy and
    stressed.  But it's better to overreact than to ignore an appeal
    for help and find out too late it was serious.
    
    From what you say in the base note, it sounds like he may have had
    almost all his self-image tied up in this marriage to the "right
    woman" (and probably the ideal family, too) and having it go sour
    on him would be much more devastating than for many of us. 
    
    --bonnie

    RE. 6
    
    When those instances occur I agree it is a tragedy indeed.  And the
    comments own *father discrimination* is also true and a tragedy.
    
    RE. 7 & 8
    
    I guess  I was off the mark.  I agree with 8.  If he has been there
    and passed the test and still has the alienation from his wife, His
    stress level must really be intense.  
    
    Considering he is out for a couple of weeks, do you have plans to
    keep in touch with him during this period of time ?
    
    Watch him closely.  I am surprised you don't mention him drinking
    or some other escapism or release.  That in itself is scary because
    he seems to just internalize his problems.  Prehaps you could convince
    him to see his family physican. (less stigma associated with that than
    with a physchologist), although the doctor may refer him to one.
            

    re. 9
      So far he hasn't externalized any of the stress, i.e. drinking,
    drugs, etc. He's keeping it in and except for talking to me, hasn't had
    any release. I'm going to try the physician angle, because I know he
    hasn't been sleeping well and he's exhausted so I might be able to get
    him in for that. Unfortunately I'm leaving tomorrow for a week in
    France for work, so I can't check up on him, but since he's with his
    mom and children for vacation, I feel pretty safe being away. I think
    spending the time with low-stress individuals will help him alot. When
    I get back I'll check on him to see how he's doing....as well as
    sending him encouraging cards from France. I'm really hoping for a
    turn-around and a decision to come out of this vacation. At least he'll
    start moving forward again rather than being stuck in the quagmire he's
    in right now.
    
    

    It seems to me that this is what the Digital Employee Assistance
    Plan is all about. It's there for him to use.
    
    If he continues to keep it in, eventually he is going to blow, in
    one way or another.
    
    Professional counseling, on an emergency basis, can be extremely
    helpful, for his depression, management of his stress, and
    also, when ready and willing to tackle it, marriage counseling,
    with his wife.       
    
    -roger
    

    RE: all
    
                   I agree with .11, EAP is the place for him.  Since that
    seems to be out of the question, stay as close as possible without 
    becomimg part of the problem.  I would encourage you to stay as far
    from the middle as possible....ie....help him or help her,  you seem to
    be too close to be as objective as this problem might need.  You might
    try to find someone he can trust that has used EAP to convince him the
    exceptional benifits this might provide.  Since trust is so important
    in these situations, I would NOT go behind his back about ANYTHING. 
    Be supportive, but also very "up front" with him.  Sometimes the truth
    can shock people back to reality.

    
    I think your friend needs YOUR help.  I wouldn't talk to his wife,
    you're not a marriage counselor.  It's unfortunate, but often you
    DO have to take sides.  Not on the issues, per se, but just to be
    there.  It sounds to me like you've already done that.
    
    I also think he needs professional help.  If he's holding it all
    in, it WILL come out, in one way or another.  (I know about this
    one.)  And when it does, it'll hit like a ton of bricks.
    
    It sounds like he's blaming himself, and he feels like a failure.
    Not a good place to be.
    
    I agree with whomever said if he even jokingly says something about
    suicide, get help FAST.  Even if it means driving him yourself to
    the nearest hospital. 
    
    Stay there for him.  Be supportive.  It sounds to me like it's going
    to get a lot tougher before it gets better.  But, it WILL get better.
    
    My prayers are with you both.
    
    jean
    

    Thanks for all the support. I don't think I have to worry about him and
    suicide, he has never mentioned it and seems to think anyone who
    considers it is foolhardy, but I will keep and eye on him. I'm hoping
    he'll sort some things out during his vacation, I'll find out in a week
    or two. When I spoke to him Sunday night, he seemed pretty much as down
    as he possibly could be so I'm hoping he's on his way back up. His wife
    refused to go on the vacation with him and his kids at the last minute
    so that may have been either the last straw or the break he needs from
    her to start seeing things more clearly with some of the stress
    removed. I'm really going to try and get him to seek professional help
    but if he still refuses, I'll just give him whatever support he needs.
    As some of the past replies have stated, I don't want to get in the
    middle and try to talk with his wife, especially since I don't already
    know her, it would just cause more trouble I think. I'm keeping my
    fingers crossed for him.
    
    Debbie
    

>         <<< Note 821.14 by AKO569::JOY "Gotta get back to Greece!" >>>
>                        -< Thanks for all the support >-

>    refused to go on the vacation with him and his kids at the last minute
>    so that may have been either the last straw or the break he needs from
    
It may be the last straw in this case, but whether it is or not, help him to
see that he needs to learn to live without companionship from her. it is very 
easy to fall into a mold of begging for her affection/company out of a desire
to make it work. being rejected, and going back begging again. all because
the man feels a (perhaps misguided) sense that part of what is going on is his 
fault. it is also a pattern that may get repeated later in another 
relationship. He (like many people) needs to learn strength first for his own
sanity, then the relationships should be easier.(easier to say than to do
IMHO).

    My friend has come back from his vacation. He looked worse than when he
    left. He spent part of it with his wife along (the first week) and it
    was so bad he told her not to come the second week. After getting home
    on Sat., he spent the rest of the weekend with a close friend, no wife,
    no kids. He did have what he called a "good" talk with his wife though,
    seems she realizes finally that he's serious about a separation,
    although still is avoiding sitting down to discuss things. She doesn't
    want a separation, he's not sure. He does seem less depressed though
    after his weekend away, but still indecisive. At least I'm not quite so
    worried about him, but then again, he's only been back for a day. I'll
    post updates as they happen.
    
    Thanks
    Debbie