Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    It is such a shame that something like that has to happen, but I
    don't think your friend did the right thing by separating. Marriage
    is supposed to be for better or worse. As bad as that type of situation
    is, it does happen, and it sounds like the son is being taken care
    of in the right way.
    
    By alienating the son, he'll never be able to feel like a part of
    the family. (I know if it had happened to mt daughters, I'd want
    to hang him up in a manner that would be sure to cause PAIN) But,
    when you look at what is best for everyone, I'd suggest keeping
    the family together including the son. Continue the counceling,
    and make sure that he doesn't have the opportunity to be alone with
    her until or unless he can once again be trusted.
    
    By separating from her husband because of what the son did, is not
    right in my book.
    
    Hope it works out.
    
    Nils

    I don't know if I would ever be able to even look at the son. If
    I were the mother, my main concern would be the safety of her daughter.
    This must preceed the needs of her husband and his son. This girl
    has had something stolen from her that can never be replaced. She
    will take years to heal.
    
    Kate
    

I don't understand why she seperated from her husband if the son was the problem
and he was removed.

Jim.

         I don't like to "talk" in this conference much but a couple of
    things here bothered me and no one else seemed to cover it, so here
    I am...
         .2 acts as though this were the end of the world when there is
    really no support for this position.  We have not read from .0 to
    what degree this "molestation" extended (and yes, there *are* degrees
    of molestation.)  And why should she limit herself to believing that 
    it will takes years to heal?  That's pretty narrow, too, in my opinion.
    
         I have a brother who is retarded, epileptic and lots of other
    things.  Several (maybe 8 or 9, I can't remember exactly) years ago
    I was visiting with my parental family (on the East Coast...I live
    on the West Coast) and had been there for just 30 minutes or so when
    my father informed me that my son was locked (trapped, as it were)
    in my brother's bedroom.  It took a while (with me almost breaking the
    door down) to get my son out of that room but I was able to and
    then I had to deal with my son (took him to another part of the house
    and calmed him, [his belt had been unbuckled by my brother] etc.) 
    then I had to break up a major altercation
    between my father and my brother (who managed to punch my mother, too.)
    Police were called, etc.  Anyway, this can go off into tangents of
    all kinds and it's off the point I wish to make.  
         The point I wish to make is that my brother has been in and out
    of mental hospitals or hospitals of all types for his entire life and
    will probably always be this way (at least this is how it appears.)  
    He has not been kept from people just because of what happened then
    or what has happened in several other incidents.  He does not need to
    be avoided, just watched more carefully.  
          Now, mine is a fairly severe situation.  There is nothing in .0
    to indicate that this is on anything remotely close to this level
    of severity.  A twelve year-old boy has "normal" desires and
    curiosities...selecting a four-year old girl as the object of that
    curiosity may not be appropriate from an adult point of view, but
    no one has said it isn't typical or natural for a child.  
    We do not know enough to comment on this, and it would be a grievous
    error to suggest punishment for the boy or a doomed future for the
    girl based on what we know.  From my standpoint the mother has acted
    very defensively (naturally) and has fears about any future
    possibilities.  We cannot know enough to respond appropriately to this.
    It may very well be that she has over-reacted.  While it has definitely
    wounded the relationships, that doesn't mean that the wounds are
    irrepairable.  Perhaps the daughter didn't experience very much and
    maybe can be counseled as to what is appropriate and what isn't,
    without much difficulty.  How she is affected by this is unclear from
    this note; however, it may well be that everyone *else's* dramatic
    opinions could escalate the severity in her mind...and set up lots
    of problems later.  In other words, maybe the event wasn't as bad
    as what followed the event.  Again, we cannot tell from this.
    
         Be careful of passing judgment...
    
    Frederick
    

    re - .3
    
    Regarding the circumstances, I can't expect that wife and husband are
    able to console each other.  It's possible she may even blame him in 
    part for what happened, so seperartion may be the best thing for the 
    time being.
    
    re - .4
    
    Frederick,
    
    You raise an important question about the severity of the situation, but
    it was obviously severe *enough* to cause a family separation and for the
    boy to be placed in a group home for a year.  I can only assume that his
    placement was done with the consent of his father and perhaps the 
    recommendation of a doctor or even the court.

    Perhaps these people are over-reacting to this situation, but the 
    alternative, to do little or nothing, does not appeal to me.  This boy 
    obviously has a problem and needs help.

    It may be true that an average twelve year old boy is curious about the
    opposite sex and sex in general, but I do not consider what he did to 
    that four year old girl normal.

    Whether or not a child would consider what happened "normal or natural"
    is not the issue here.  It's trust.  Trust is a very fragile thing and,
    once broken, cannot be easily repaired, IMHO.  This boy has abused the
    trust of everyone around him and now they *all* need help.

    If I were the mother in this situation, *I* could not, in good conscience,
    welcome this boy back with open arms or allow this boy to be unsupervised
    in the same room as my daughters.  Nor could I ask the father to abandon
    his son.  I could only *hope* that an acceptable answer could be found in 
    some heavy duty counseling.

    Carol


    

I think Ward has a very good point.  Based on what is in .0, there is no way of
determining the severity of the incident, or whether the responses were
appropriate.

I can easily imagine that the situation *could* be such that it could simply be
solved by explaining that 1) a person's body is private, 2) any kind of sexual
play is only appropriate only between peers (if then).  I can easily imagine
the situation being over-curiousity and ignorance of proper respect.

Jim.

    FROM THE BASENOTER:
    
    I want to thank you for your responses.  I do want to clarify the
    situation for those who feel it might not of been a big deal.  The
    sexual molestations happened more than once....they caught them
    after it had happened about 4-5 times based on what the daughter
    said.  She was very trusting of the son because she adored him and
    thats why she didn't understand why he did what he did.  In response
    to the son being out of the home, and why are they separated?, well
    Linda felt she wanted her own space to decide what the future will
    be, but it doesn't change her love for Jim.  It has definitely put
    strain on there new marriage, but the counseling seems to be helping.
    

    I'm not a big fan of 'what if' scenarios, but...
    
    What the basenote describes is a four-year-old being molested by her
    twelve-year-old brother. 
    
    In this case, he happens to be her step-brother; but many similar
    situations involve blood-siblings.
    
    I am not trivialising _at_all_, what happened is tragic.  But it also
    tragic for parents to cast out one of their children.
    
    It does seem like there is some transference happening here...punishing
    the father for the sins of the son.  It is unclear what the father's
    attitude is. Based on fathers I have known there's a high probability
    that he is devastated.  Is he blase about it?  
    
    The son is receiving treatment.  Wouldn't it be more humane to monitor
    the boy closely rather than end the marriage?
    
    Certainly I would argue for protecting the little girl.  How does _she_
    feel about her brother now?  I hope that she has not been told that he
    is BAD or EVIL, because she could transfer that to herself because of
    her involvement.
    
      Ann

    I have a friend who has had similar trouble with her children. The
    actual situation occured several years ago. An older brother 
    sexually molested his younger sister. At the time she was divorcing
    her husband and trying to support herself and four children. He was 
    un/underemployed depending on how you look at it( he was cleanning the
    church and a few other businesses at night) He used the boys and they
    would go and clean the businesses with him. The boys(three of them)
    being old enough to babysit the younger sister were left at various 
    times in charge. This stopped when Sal(name changed)found out what was
    going on. Even though now the girl is old enough to watch children
    herself she is never left alone with the boys in the house.
    
    As a family they have gone to counseling for years(still are I believe)
    Sal and her daughter attend special groups and retreats about
    child molestation(Turns out that Sal herself was repressing memories of
    molestation).Both Sal and daughter are overweight...The daughter has 
    gained a lot in the last three years.
    
    The boy/boys have spent time in special Christian Youth homes and in
    Church member homes untill the proper values could be reestablished.
    And over time they have healed some of the wounds. Sal has given up 
    much to try to heal her family.
    
    
    My own instinctive reaction is similar to the friend in 0. Get my
    daughter away from the problem boy....After the initial reaction I
    realise that the more I would freak the more my daughter would start
    believing she had done something wrong....Every thing I have read
    on the subject and all my dicussions with child behaviorists have
    insisted that you ignore the 'reaction' mode and calmly explain that
    this should not happen again and start teaching 'matter of factly'
    sexual education.  
    
    I just remembered a story a mid-wife friend of mine once recounted to
    me.....upon finding her son and daughter enjoying this kind of play....
    She got angry with the children and explained her anger as being 
    related to the danger of his getting his sister pregnant.... As
    he has been at numorous deliveries with her and knew how difficult
    it could be to have a baby. She calmly explained that his sister's 
    body was to small to have a baby yet and that's one(she stressed ONE)
    reason that children should wait til they are adults and can take care
    of children befor the engage in sex.  Over the next few weeks and
    months she was careful to have discutions about sex individially and
    jointly with her children. 
    
    I do believe that the problem is the Adults reaction to the deed. If
    the parents freak then the child will sence that they have done
    something aweful. If the parents handle it matter-of-factly at the 
    time (I would propally freak later anyway) Then the emotional 
    damage can be minimal and It can be concidered a learning experiance.
    
    I under stand that the open and matter of fact way some of my friends 
    have managed to handle these things might be offencive to some people.
    It is not ment to be.It is only ment to be informative and helpful.I 
    had some experiance relayed to me and after thinking about how these 
    people had handled it as apposed to my understanding of  how I would
    have probally reacted I believe that there methods would cause the
    least harm(emotanally).
    
    I have been very open with my daughter about sexally matters and she
    was there when my son was born. I do believe that she knows more about
    The how and whys of where babies come from that most children her age.
    I have often told her that she propally knows more that her peers and 
    if she has any questions she has only to ask. I am easy with the 
    mecanics Its just Biology.  The hard part for me is the emotions
    envoled. 
    
    To try to get a little lighter. The mid-wife did say that the idea
    that he could get someone else pregnant and be respocible for a baby
    did seem to tramitize her son in a way she wasn't expecting. He seemed
    to be a lot more respectful to women and quite a bit in awe.I believe
    her children were 9 and 7 at the time of the insident she told us
    about.
     
    I am sorry this has become so long. Families can survive and overcome 
    this problem. It is not easy putting aside the shock and addressing 
    the issue with facts and what is appropiate behavior and not with 
    the 'this is BAD' therfore you are 'BAD' attitude.
    

    
    One point that has not been covered at all is this:
    
    I believe this is only "the tip of the iceberg".  In all of the
    articles I have read regarding molestation of children by family
    members, it is an on-going type thing.  In other words, at some
    point down the line - that 12-year old was also molested.
    
    Believe me, this sad story does not begin with the 12-year old,
    but probably began many years ago.  Do you know what I mean?
    

RE: .9  Exactly...

I am really concerned that a lot of what has been going on for ages as 'sexual
learning experiences' is now being labelled as "molestation".  Is it molestation
when two young children start playing with each other?  I don't necessaryily
think so.  Yet if it is labelled so, then someone has to be the scapegoat, and
usually the older child or the male.  And they are not always the one to start
such things.

Now not all of this experimentation that goes on is healthfull, but I'm pretty
sure that some of it is necessary.  Some of it needs to be caught and stopped,
but not, I think by labelling it molestation.  A good half of the time, I think,
a better response is to explain that you don't do that, and some reasons why.

So, you tell me, is every time kids play around, is it molestation?  Does it
need to persued with a vengance?  How can an adult who happens into tell the
difference.

Jim.

    re: .11 
       
         Very good!
    
         The "end result" from the labels and attention given to what
    happens can only result in more harm, in many cases.  What, as implied
    in an earlier note, does the younger of the two children get led
    to believe?  That they are dirty and evil and shameful...who then get
    to blame members of the opposite sex while fearing parental authority
    forever (and being angry about it.)  The older child, on the other
    hand, gets to be humiliated and shamed and made to feel extreme guilt
    over what they felt was simple exploration.  Both children get to
    grow up with distorted views on sexuality and the opposite sex.
    What a nightmare!
    
         It is difficult to group all these events into a single category.
    My tendency would be to take them on a case-per-case basis AND,
    understanding that they are CHILDREN, opt for the low-key approach.
         As I have come to learn about humanity, it is my experience that
    everyone initially experiments with themselves.  Later, that discover
    moves towards others.  Nothing says that any of this is in error.  
    If other values are intact, the learning process can occur quite
    responsibly (albeit embarassing to the adult mind...it is quite natural
    for a child's mind.)  Where hurt is the result, then corrections need
    to be implemented.  This is the job of a parent...not to lead their
    lives, but to give them the best information available.
                     
         Guilt and blame are useless emotions.
    
    Frederick
    
      

    IMHO, the separation is a move in the wrong direction.  The family
    should work it out together.
    
    Paula

    this is late, but -I feel- important

    re .10 Exactly!

    Most abusers have been abused!!!
    The step-son learned how to abuse somewhere, the most likely place he
    learned it was from someone in authority in his immediate family. The
    vast majority of abusers are men.
    Your friend may now be married to that 'someone in authority'. Your
    friend probably needs to protect her daughter from more that just a 12
    year old molester.
    I believe your friend also needs some professional help. 
    Somebody who has been 
    o married
    o divorced
    o fell in love after only 6 weeks and married after only 4 months
    o doesn't know how to protect her daughter or at least seems to be
    considering her own welfare vis a vis the marriarge to be a higher
    priority than the welfare of her daughters
    
    Has some real problems

    Absolutely at the TOP of the agenda has to be when and by whom was the
    12-year old abused.
    The elder daughter will be in puberty in 3 or 4 years. Where will her
    step-father be?
    
    For those of you who feel I am harsh, remember the odds of the
    step-father being involved in the abuse are very, very high.
    How can the lady even *consider* leaving her two daughters in an
    environment like this?