Conference quark::human_relations-v1

RE: .0

	Handle your problem first.  You have placed yourself into your
friends shoes; Not good - this won't help.  Work on being objective of the
situation.  This doesn't mean don't be compassionate, just don't make her
problem your problem.  Ask yourself, 'Why am I so reactive?'

	After you're out of her shoes, decide how bad the situation is.  Go
by facts, not conjecture.  If you feel, thru facts, that she truely can't
help herself, get the help yourself.  You can help directly or indirectly.
Directly you will immediately hit your fear of loss; losing her as a friend.
This is better than losing her to death.  Indirectly, ie: talking to the young
childs school teacher/principal for them to check for the symptoms.  Either
way, facts are important.

	If you feel thru facts, that she can help herself, help her get
herself to counseling.  She lives with a pattern that tells her 'I should be
punished', this is probably what she married him for; to be punished.

	You can help her get counseling by being her counselor.  Friends,
especially trusted friends, can be the best counselors.  Contradict her
desire for punishment.

	You can help her by telling her:
		- you appreciate her as a person on this planet
		- you appreciate her friendship
		- positive thoughts about good deeds that she does or helps
			you do, she does for her young child

	Most of all you can help her by listening to her.  Listening does
a world of good...let's her get her feelings out, gives you food for later
conversations.

Dan

    Re: .0
    
    >She refuses to involve the police
    
    Has she given a reason for her refusal?
    
    >There is a significant danger that she is going to get very badly
    >hurt.
    
    As much as you can, document the abuse.  Anything she tells you is
    hearsay evidence and probably not admissable in court, so document what
    actions you yourself see and/or hear.  If she has bruises or she's
    upset, make a note of that and the day/time.
    
    What else can you do?  Well, you can try to convince her to get out. 
    In order to do that, you need to know why she stays and why she keeps
    her child in that environment.  Once you know her reasons, you can try
    to show why they're not strong enough to keep her in this position.  If
    you have evidence, you could try calling the police yourself.  However,
    they are reluctant to interfere with "domestic" affairs.  If she
    refuses to press charges or get police assistance, you haven't gained
    anything and you might have made things worse.
    
    Abusive husbands have been known to pursue their families after they've
    "escaped."  If you do get her out of this situation, she might have to
    relocate to avoid her husband.  Restraining orders are not always
    effective, especially in cities or larger towns.
    
    Basically, you can't help her unless she's willing to help herself.  If
    she's in counseling, that's certainly a good start.

    If you're  that close to doing something "drastic" you may want to
    consider counseling yourself. He's not your problem, and you can't
    do  much  about him if she won't. So, calm down, it never helps to
    have  a  lot  of  excited  people running around. If you're really
    worried  about doing something you'll regret, get counselling. EAP
    has a good reputation around here. 

    Find out  about  battered  women's shelters in your area. They may
    not  tell  you  where they are located, as they have to hide women
    from  their  abusers, but you can get a phone number. Give that to
    your  friend,  so she has a contact, when she's willing to use it.
    There's  not  much more that you can do. Trying to convince her to
    take action is likely to be counterproductive, as she may feel the
    pressure  and  push  back  with all sorts of reasons for not doing
    anything.  And  be there when she wants to talk. That's really all
    you can do.

--David

    I personally know two battered women. One of them admitted to me
    that she tolerated the physical abuse for several years to the point
    of requiring plastic surgery as well as permanent injury to her
    teeth. When I asked her why she put up with this, she replied that
    she really believed at that time, that all men were like her husband.
    
    Only when she was exposed to males who didn't exhibit this criminal
    behavior, was she able to be motivated to take action and leave
    the abusive situation. I think that your friendship itself,
    particularly if you can involve some social interaction with your
    spouse or s.o. will help her with benchmarks so that she recognizes
    the abnormality of her situation, get her bearings and start a new
    life. It's shocking to see people accept this kind of abominable
    situation.
    
    As far as the last three notes are concerned, they all contain helpful
    and I think sane advice. Hang in there.
    
    							Spuds
    

    	Call the Health and Human Services dept. or the Dept. of Social
    Services and report the abuse (annonomously if necessary) of the
    child. They will follow up. They've been getting some bad press
    lately and follow up every complaint.
    
    K 

    
    
    
    Re:  .5
    
    That's good advice because the childs well-being is, of course,
    very important.  I'm just worried that the woman will suffer more
    because of this action; that the husband will blame her.
    
    It's a scary situation...
    
    
    

    Your friend and her child are seeing a counselor so I think the matter
    is out of your hands. It is the responsibility of the counselor & the
    parent together or separately to plan a course of action.
    If your friend is unwilling/unable to take appropriate action, I don't
    believe you can take the action for her.

    
    If YOU hear things that are not right (cries, screams, bangs) or YOU
    see things that are not right (bruises, broken things), then YOU can
    call the police.  That will draw attention to the situation.
    
    /Eric

    
    	A couple of things, quickly;
    
    	1. Know the difference between a situation *you* can and cannot
    	change. The replies so far have described this well.
           
        > or I will become so offended that I will do something...
    	
    	2. That's *your* choice. Be careful, you may just give off
        "offense" or be as "offending" as what you're letting bother
        you so much. Which is really no better, is it now?
    
    	Joe Jas	

    I can certainly understand and appreciate your concern for your
    friend.  
    
    For many years, I lived in an abusive environment with my husband.
    The reasons for staying were many.  Like your friend, I too had
    family members and friends who were concerned about me and my three
    children.  I guess I finally got fed up and decided to take a chance
    and attempted to pull my life together.  It's been almost 7 years
    now and while we have other types of problems, we do not have to
    live in the frightening, painful environment that I subjected us
    to while I was married.
    
    My advice to you is to continue to be a friend to your friend. 
    Never judge or pressure your friend, but offer an ear for listening,
    offer comfort and understanding.  Often times, when an individual is
    in this situation, although they are a victim, they often feel
    responsible for the abuser's action (i.e., if I hadn't done this,
    he wouldn't have...)  In addition, the victim has a low self-esteem
    and fears humiliation for being in the situation.           
    
    Encourage your friend to get counseling.  Go with her to lend support.
    Realize that it has to be her decision to take the first step. 
    No one can else do that for her.  Once, she has taken that first
    step, stand by her and help her to regain her  self-worth.  It takes
    time -  but she can do it.
    
    I would also encourage counseling for you.  It's admirable that
    you are concerned about your friend.  But you ARE NOT responsible
    for the situation she is in and you CANNOT make her decisions for
    her.   
    
    All of the previous notes offer excellent advice.
    
    I wish you and your friend luck.    
    
    

    It is possible that there is some love intermingled with the
    friendship that you have not identified (thus those hostil thoughts 
    towards her husband).  She is the one to do something about HER
    situation, not you.  All you can do is simpathise with her but
    a love triangle can be very touchy, I would be very careful not
    to get too involved so not to make her life even worse...

    re .-1
    Wow! Now how about THAT for speculation?
    Its also possible that she is the maid of a Wambesi warrior who hasn't
    killed his first lion yet.

>RE: <Note 803.12 - VMSSG::NICHOLS "Herb - CSSE support for VMS">
>>RE: <Note 803.11 - CPO02::MAHONEY "ANA MAHONEY DTN 223-4189">
>>
>>    It is possible that there is some love intermingled with the
>>    friendship that you have not identified (thus those hostil thoughts 
>>    towards her husband).  She is the one to do something about HER
>>    situation, not you.  All you can do is simpathise with her but
>>    a love triangle can be very touchy, I would be very careful not
>>    to get too involved so not to make her life even worse...
>
>    Wow! Now how about THAT for speculation?
>    Its also possible that she is the maid of a Wambesi warrior who hasn't
>    killed his first lion yet.

Herb, I read from your message that you believe Ana's comment to be way
off-base.  I think she brings up a valid point.  We know very little about
the person who wrote the base note.  We don't have a frame of reference
about him/her.  So we don't truely know why she is so reactive to her friends
situation.

Sure, I'd bet that s/he is reactive because s/he doesn't want her friend to
be hurt.  I wouldn't bet, but also wouldn't discount, that the situation
Ana describes is possible.  Or...the possibility that s/he has desires
towards the woman.

It could also be that Ana could be projecting a feeling that is deeply rooted
within her psyche.  Ana, no offense is intended here, just pointing out some
possibilities.

All I'm pointing out is that we would be very narrow-minded if we didn't
consider all the possibilities given the parameter of the basenote.

Dan

    re .-1
    
    Yup. As long as we keep in mind that it is speculation.

    If the child is witnessing abuse, he is being abused. Although it
    it is a passive manner, it is still abuse of that child. Call the
    authorities. The woman may, for whatever reason, continue to stay.
    The child never made that decision.
    
    Kate
    

    GET HER OUT OF THERE!!!!!
    
    Jill
    

    Re:  803.16
    
    Jill is right - get her out of there!!!
    
    I was physically abused and even hospitalized because of physical
    abuse.  The result can be terrible.  I am now just starting to
    build up self-esteem and confidence in myself.  I for so long
    blamed it on myself and soon realized that it was not me but
    it was his insecurities.  She has to realized that there are
    better people out there and a better life.
    
    I am seeing a wonderful person right now.  After dating some
    people I feel I finally found the right person.  My problem
    is I get so scared because I am so afraid that I am going to get
    hurt.  He has no idea what happened to me.  I am afraid to tell
    him also thinking that he would question why I stayed with him.
    It just happens.  You can't start a good relationship with
    anxieties.  All my fears are a direct result of my mental and
    physical abuse.  
    
    I got out and am picking up the peices.  She can too.  She has
    too or else she will be miserable for the rest of her life.
    I am happy now because I got out and I thought I would never 
    meet anyone out there that would be good to me.  I did.  She
    can to.
    
    s/