Conference quark::human_relations-v1

This is all well and good...  Too many times people try to change and control
other people for trivial reasons, of merely because they like/want/need that
feeling of control or power.

But...  There are also things that every person needs to have pointed out to
them that they are doing some weird stuff, and maybe they should look at that,
and maybe they might decide that they were better off growing and changing.

There are many things about people that are subjective, that are personal
decisions and preferances.  There are also things which are objectively right or
wrong, helpfull or harmfull.

Jim. 

RE: .2


> This is all well and good...  Too many times people try to change and control
> other people for trivial reasons, of merely because they like/want/need that
> feeling of control or power.

Yes, we all have the freedom to do what ever we want but there are consequences 
for our actions and when you try to change someone, for what ever reason, is 
the result of that action what you really want in your life? People use 
extreme behavior to change others and I doubt that they would view their 
reasons as trivial. I think the author`s of the book were just trying to point 
out that a little understanding will be more helpful in the long run then 
trying to chisel away at another person.

> But...  There are also things that every person needs to have pointed out to
> them that they are doing some weird stuff, and maybe they should look at that,
> and maybe they might decide that they were better off growing and changing.

Again, we all have the freedom to point out anything we want. If it comes 
across in such a way that makes the other person feel like they are a nobody,
worthless, a jerk, stupid, what they are doing is wrong, etc. I doubt if it will
produce the result we want. Well, it may cause the other person to change some 
behavior but as far as creating a closer more intimate relationship, that 
would be doubtful. People always have good reasons for what they do. Even those
with the chisel in their hand. So what the article is saying, as I read it, is 
"PLEASE UNDERSTAND ME". And then the decision to grow and change can be 
personal and one that comes from the heart.

I am new to (DEC, this conference), please bear with me...

I too have read "Please Understand Me," and found it very though provoking.
It is supposed to help you understand others, but I (and others) found it
useful for thinking about ourselves.  I certainly don't think that a rigid
categorization system is the appropriate way to understand people, but there
were some interesting perspectives presented in the book.  Food for thought.

I have been reading a few of the "non-work-related" conferences here, and I
am struck by the high level of vitriol in several of them.  It strikes me as
either a desire to hear oneself speak or an effort at convincing other people
that one's political or religious philosophy is correct.  Needless to say, this
does not work very often.

How do you deal with this kind of situation in person?  (In Notes, the old
NEXT UNSEEN, or DELETE ENTRY, work just fine.)

    I don't know abut in person, but I know it's bad enough in notes....I
    am quite surprised that the level of ourtright insults and antagonism
    is allowed to exist.  Try to be civil and you are told to take it
    to religion or something.....
    
    I believe that in person, a person is likely to be far less vicious
    and demanding than say, over a non-personal network like this and
    other notesfiles (non-DEC notesfiles in cluded--I;vve been ththere).
    However, in personal, you have more of a chance of dissauading the
    boisterous individual that their insistance on changing your mind
    is not going to work--you also have the option of walking away.
       There ARE those who are quite rabid about making others think
    like they, and there isn't much YOU can do to change THEM.  As I've
    heard said before, you must be true to yourself first.  
    
    

    I have always believed that you can't change other people:  people
    change themselves.  A corollary is that if you want to change, you
    have to do it yourself:  no-one can do it for you.
    
    When someone (who I'm relatively close to) does something that upsets
    me, I don't tell them what they SHOULD do.  But I feel that I shouldn't
    be expected to carry the burden and hide my feelings, either.  My
    approach is a non-judgemental "When you do/did X, I feel/felt Y."
    The other person can't say (in my opinion) that I'm "wrong," because
    feelings aren't right or wrong -- they just ARE.  On the other hand,
    I haven't said anything judgemental, or told them what to do.
    
    -Keith

    
    	Keith,
    
    	I agree, one should always point out to another that "When you
    	do X, I feel Y", this doesn't insult anyone. However, from my
    	experience, most people don't stop there, they have to add the
    	finish of the equation. It usually ends up something like "When
    	YOU do X, I feel Y... Therefore YOU SHOULD do/think/whatever
    	ONLY Z".
    
    	G_B

    Well, while I never tried to change Rick, I have certainly been a
    'change-agent' in his life, as he has been in mine.
    
    We've been together for 16 years now and he has become a connoiseur of
    fine wines & beers [not necessarily expensive ones]; he has taken up
    'real' camping; and he knows an awful lot about what makes music.  He
    is also active on environmental issues and is no longer a Republican.
    
    I didn't try to change him.  It just happened over the years.  None of
    these changes were sought for, but they make for a wonderful bonus as
    we gain more common ground.
    
    Both of us are hefty enough in the self-concept area that any attempt
    to edit the other would backfire on a huge scale!
    
      Ann

I agree with .2 that there are times when it is appropriate to try to
change people.  The more important question to me is how?

I also agree we can't change anyone else directly, people have to change
themselves, but there are ways we can help.  In a sense, the best way
to change others is to change yourself.

1) Try to set a good example.  People learn far more by emulating
   what they see works for others, than by being told.

2) Really try to understand their point of view.  Listen to them.

   Studies have shown people change the way they think more when
   they are talking than when they are listening.  Talking engages
   the mind in a way that makes change possible.  We all know how
   easy it is to ignore things we disagree with, or don't want to hear.

3) Resist the temptation to resort to coercion (verbal abuse, intimidation,
   force, violence).  It only increases resistance.

   ["Peace through strength" is a contradiction of terms.  If it requires
    strength to get others to accept our terms, it *isn't* peace.]

The means we chose must be consistent with the ends we seek.

- Peter

    
    re:.9
    bravo!
    
    it may not show in notes...:-)...but i agree with everything you
    said and try to emulate it (difficult though it seems at times)...
    
    if a man has a headache....
    and i notice that he's been beating his head against a wall every
    day...
    should i not mention to him that his headache might go away if
    he stopped beating his head against that wall?
    
    rik

    
    The hardest lesson I've had to learn is that there are 
    some things I cannot change, this also means I do not
    have to put additional pressure on myself to accomplish
    something that is not my responsibility.
    
    I accept the responsibility for my actions (also a hard lesson)
    but there is no serenity for me in attempting to accept the
    responsibility for another.
    
    If the way I live has a positive impact on others around me
    this is a bonus; surely nothing I expect or imagine.
    
    The best words to me when I've struggled have always come from
    one who has been in that struggle. I do believe however that
    because I went to that person for a specific reason, that
    person DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to offer words on the other
    areas of my life without my first making a request.
    
    Lastly, the base note reference is fantastic!!
    
               --Christopher

    re .0
    
    I have read part of the book, but it hits home so much now, I 
    think I should get another copy and start from the beginning.
    And send another to my mother.
    
    Another very good book to read about Active Listening, whether or not
    you have children, is "Parent Effectiveness Training."  I'm immersed in
    it now, and find it fantastic to use with adults, as well as with 
    children of all ages.  (It also is helpful if you feel guilty about not
    always being consistent with your children.)
    
    P.