Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    	This topic (understanding those around me) being of particular
    interest to me, I take note of it wherever I find anything mentioned
    about it.  But of all I've seen and heard, probably the best
    description of how I feel about it can be found in the following
    lyrics.  I can relate to the entire song, but it's the last stanza, and
    especially the last two lines, that hit home the hardest....


    Brian



                                  Open Secrets


	It went right by me --
	At the time it went over my head
	I was looking out the window
	I should have looked
	At your face instead

	It went right by me --
	Just another wall
	There should have been a moment
	When we let our barriers fall
	I never meant
	What you're thinking --
	That is not what I meant at all...

	Well I guess we all
	Have these feelings
	We can't leave unreconciled
	Some of them burned on our ceilings
	Some of them learned as a child

	The things we're concealing
	Will never let us grow
	Time will do its healing
	You've got to let it go

	Closed for my protection --
	Open to your scorn
	Between these two directions
	My heart is sometimes torn

	I lie awake with my secrets
	Spinning around my head
	Something that somehow
	Escaped me --
	Something you shouldn't have said
	I was looking out the window
	I should have looked
	At your face instead...

	I find no absolution
	In my rational point of view
	Maybe some things are instinctive
	But there's one thing you could do
	You could try to understand me --
	I could try to understand you...






                                                  Rush, from
                                                  "Hold Your Fire"
                                                     Geddy Lee
                                                     Alex Lifeson
                                                     Neil Peart ( lyrics )

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[her]:  "This guy scares me.  He gets too close."

[her]:  "[...]  Don't reveal too much, say too much.  Stay in control.
                If you don't let someone get too close, they can't hurt
                you."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


...   this is me talking.

Those words describe the rules I've lived by in dealing with the male
relationships I've had in the past 3 years or so.  And it has worked --
I haven't been hurt.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The kind of "too close" I think we're talking about here is not the
physical kind or even the emotional kind:  it's the kind of closeness
that occurs when you achieve a deep kind of understanding, a communion
with someone.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I strongly agree with the distinction you made between types of
closeness,  Brian.

I have not let any man get "too close"  to me in 3 years...since my SO,
whom I was intensely in love with, left me a month after I was raped,
and since my older brother, whom I adored and shared everything with,
died shortly before I was raped.

[ I had a small revelation a short while ago that stunned me - I think I
am actually angry at my brother for dying just before I needed him most
in my life, even though his death was a tragic twist of fate and not at
all his fault. ]

Part of how I control not letting any one man get too close is to always
date more than one (or none) at a time.  When a man I'm dating starts to
pressure me into seeing only him or asks too many questions about why I
don't discuss my most personal thoughts and feelings with him, I simply
back off.

Members of =wn= who've read my notes or contacted me offline know
more about me, my thoughts, my feelings, and my life, than the combined
knowledge of the men that I date.  I reached out to them, because I am
tired of just coping with my side effects of rape.  I think I can
overcome most of my problems if I have a push (well, OK, maybe a shove
:-) in the right direction.  Initially, it didn't seem like that big of
a risk, either, because I couldn't think of a way I could be hurt by
these electronic beings that communicate with each other in a notes
conference.  But whenever I meet the human form behind the electronic
being, it gets a little scarier.  Nevertheless, there's still no
comparison between how I feel about sharing with members of =wn= and how
I feel about 'communing' with men I date.

Why should I let any man get close to me when I've only been hurt by the
ones I've loved and respected the most?

And if I'm enjoying the relationships where I have the other types of
closeness you described above, why should I unprotect myself?

> I could never understand before why someone might be like this, ...

because...you know the cliche....after you get burned once, you don't
play with fire again.

>    I've seen this type of thing several times so far, and it's very
>    frustrating.

Why were they like that, Brian?  Did you ask?
I'd suspect their reasons were non-trivial.


>  [him]:  "You're not afraid of *him*, you're afraid of *you*."

>  Is someone like this afraid of the other person or him/her self?

This concept blows me away.  I've honestly never looked at it like that
until just recently a statement of something to that effect was made to
me.  I was very confused.

Why would I be afraid of myself when it was not me but others who hurt
me to begin with?

                                                       nancy b.

    
    
    	Hi,
    
    	My therom,_call_it_kelly's_therom_, states that one must look
    	inside one's self for the answers.  A koan can only be 
    	understood by the questioner.  The outcome is most liberating.
    	
    
    					still_looking_kelly
      

    It would be safe for me to say that, people hurt me, because i hurt
    myself and people love me because I love myself. my life refects
    how i feel about myself. I am in the first phase of a new relationship
    and i don't know where it will lead to, but I know if I can let
    go of the past and be positive about myself and who I have grown
    to be, whatever happens will be ok.
    
    A good book to read, "THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED".
    
    GOOD LUCK
    
    BARB
    

 Very well said "Barb".  I also read the book and found it to be terrific.
    
 Meredith

<    It would be safe for me to say that, people hurt me, because i hurt
<    myself and people love me because I love myself. my life refects

      I'm having a hard time with this idea. This seems to say that the
      person who is hurt is responsible. Therefore I can treat someone
      any way I please and if they get hurt they must have wanted it.
      You are indeed responsible for the way you react to what someone
      has done to you, but that doesn't mean you can't be hurt. That's
      one of the things that makes love so scary. It's impossible to
      care without opening up yourself to hurt. How you deal with it is
      a separate issue. liesl

    Indeed, the line from the movie (paraphrase: if you don't let them
    in, they can't hurt you) is something that I unfortunately have
    taken heart in.  How can someone feel like that?  Like the noter
    ahead of me (sorry, I am terrible with memory at times), once bitten,
    twice shy.  I am not a masochist and am not interested in becoming
    close simply to get beaten about the head and heart.  So, in the
    past six months, I have abided by the "don't get close" theory--I
    said unfortunately because I would like company and the trust that
    comes with it--but I cannot afford the risk of pain that comes with
    giving trust.  Why? Because it destroyed me the first time--and the person
    who is left is a bit wiser for it.  That is the unfortunate side, 
    for no one should feel that way and (no, really--no self pity),
    I have found that I am not the only who does.
    
    My two bits...
    
    kim

"I have not let any man get "too close"  to me in 3 years...since my SO, whom I
was intensely in love with, left me a month after I was raped, and since my
older brother, whom I adored and shared everything with, died shortly before I
was raped." 

Nancy, it might be helpfull for you to look at how/if these events in your life
is interrelated figuratively and literally, and what reality probably is, and
what your feelings are.  It's a good bet (not knowing anything) that your SO
leaving you was caused by the after affects of your rape.  Is there any
connection within you between your brother dying and your rape?  Realistically
there can be little if any connection, but what are your feelings trying to tell
you?

"Why should I let any man get close to me when I've *ONLY* been hurt by the
ones I've loved and respected the most?" (my emphasis)

What do you mean?  Do you mean that ALL the people you have loved have ALLWAYS
hurt you?  Is that what how you feel?  I think that is most likely a rather
sweeping inaccurate generalization.  Surely there have been some people you have
loved who have not hurt you all the time.  Try to think of a more balanced view
point. 

"And if I'm enjoying the relationships where I have the other types of closeness
you described above, why should I unprotect myself?"

Because perhaps there is a factor in relationships that you are missing out on
by protecting yourself so thoroughly.  Do you think you are missing out? I know
that when I was over protective of my self from age 7 to age 18 that I missed
out on a lot. 

Ask your self if you are missing out on anything by being so protective of your
self.  Ask your self whether you can accept some/any risk in order to have the
possibility of being closer to some people.  Ask yourself what risk you can
allow, and what you would like to be the outcome.

"after you get burned once, you don't play with fire again."

I think it is a necessary to accept that bad things happen, and surmount the
effects of tragedy in our lives, rather then trying to ensure that nothing
bad ever happens to us.
 
Jim.

    
    
    I keep coming back to this topic,basically because i need to learn
    something here. Maybe it is that I can trust and let go and get
    on with my life. I  found the following in the "ONE MINUTE WISDOM"
    book:
    
                    trust
    
    the master would frequently assert that
    holiness was less a matter of what one
    "did" than what one "allowed" to happen.
    
    to a group of disciples who had difficulty
    understanding that, he told the following story:
    
    "there was once a one-legged
     dragon who said to the centipede
     'how do you manage all those legs?
      it is all i can do to manage one.'
    
    'to tell you the truth, said the centipede,
    'i do not manage them at all.
    
    

    Sometimes when you let someone "get close" and really trust the
    person, they can turn around like a snake and hurt you deeply.
    When it happens frequently to a person, the person hardens up and
    is afraid to let others get close.  It is  a defense mechanism.
    
    
    Lynne

    Sometimes, by withholding ourselves from others---letting them get
    just so close and no further---we deny ourselves the opportunity
    for growth through self-knowledge that comes from opening ourselves
    to another.  
    
    If we try and control our lives to the extent that we believe we
    are minimizing the possibility of hurt and suffering, we very well
    may be causing ourselves more sorrow.  By protecting ourselves from
    hurt, we may miss the chance of really connecting with those people
    who will fill that emptiness that lies at the bottom of our souls.
    
    To be truly alive is to be open to all that life offers.  And life
    offers a lot of sorrow and hurt from many directions; broken trusts
    are just one of them.  But to be alive!  To breath and move and
    have our being in the experience of the moment requires courage
    and faith in oneself.
    
    I have tried it both ways; I have lived long enough to know that 
    I had rather have the pain [and the growth that came through working
    it out] than to be numb and unwilling to trust *one more time*.
    
    It is a rare individual that hasn't trusted someone, wanted someone
    to be there and they were not.  And we are rare individuals, indeed,
    if we *have always been trustworthy and always been there for others*.
    
    M
       
    

RE: .12

>	it's all RISK taking, isn't it?

Actually, it's all RISK MANAGEMENT. 

Yes, spilling your guts or giving of yourself to anyone, before
assessing their trustworthiness is risk **taking**, not risk
**management**. It is unwise, because it's usually expensive,
(emotionally). 

Similarly, shunning everyone and trusting no one is just as unwise.
By refusing to take any risk at all, one limits one's opportunities
for growth, pleasure and happiness. 

One shouldn't take all risks. One shouldn't avoid all risks, either.
one should manage risks, by evaluating the risk vs. the potential
benefit. The key to managing risks is (excuse an old cliche), wisdom
to avoid bad risks and courage to take the 'good' ones. 

-- Ron 

    
    re:  .12  Ron

    >>>> Actually, it's all RISK MANAGEMENT. 

    Then "risk" never gets done.  :^)
        
    >>>> One shouldn't take all risks. One shouldn't avoid all risks,
    either. one should manage risks, by evaluating the risk vs. the
    potential benefit. The key to managing risks is (excuse an old cliche),
    wisdom to avoid bad risks and courage to take the 'good' ones. 
    
    If you're wise enough to know what is safe, or the best way to go,
    then you lose the element called "risk."  Risk = gamble.  
    Risk = uncertainty.  Risk is putting your rent money on the Black
    Jack table of life, and rent is due tomorrow.
    
    	Dwight

RE: .14

>    Then "risk" never gets done.  :^)

You know the wrong managers (please note: no smiley face).


>    If you're wise enough to know what is safe, or the best way to
>    go, then you lose the element called "risk." 

That's not what I said. Almost nothing is 'safe'. Risk is ALWAYS 
present, to varying degrees. One should be wise enough to weigh the 
LEVEL OF RISK vs. the expected results.


>    Risk = gamble. Risk = uncertainty. Risk is putting your rent
>    money on the Black Jack table of life, and rent is due tomorrow.

Excellent example. Say, your chance of winning is 50%. You then
weight the results (50% chance of no rent money vs. 50% chance of
living free for a month) and make a choice. Depending on other
available resources, 'no rent money' could equate to 'getting
evicted', or could equate to 'delay buying that Porcha another
couple of weeks'. The process of making that decision is 'risk
management'. 

-- Ron

Re:  .2


>Why should I let any man get close to me when I've only been hurt by the
>ones I've loved and respected the most?


	I'm not saying you *should*.  That's a question only you can answer
because *you* will have to live with the consequences.  But of course you
realize that there are lots of people out there who wouldn't hurt you the
same way you've been hurt.  Pain is a part of life, even from those we
love; actually, it's because we love them that they can hurt us.  We're all
human, we all make mistakes.  We simply need to remember this and try to
forgive them as they will hopefully forgive us when we make a mistake (I
am not saying that your SO leaving you after you were raped is something
that should or should not be forgiven; I don't have all the facts and even
if I did it's not for me to decide, but you.)


>And if I'm enjoying the relationships where I have the other types of
>closeness you described above, why should I unprotect myself?


	I like Ron's description -- it's RISK MANAGEMENT.  Trying to decide
who the good risks are and who the bad risks are is one of the trickier
questions in life.  But in your case, the fact that you ask the question in
the manner that you do would seem to indicate (to me anyway) that perhaps
you *shouldn't* unprotect yourself yet because you're not ready.


	These are personal questions, and as such can only be answered in a
very personal way -- your solution and my solution may very well be quite
different.  But that's not to say either is "right" or "wrong".  One thing
I *do* feel, however:  with equal risk comes equal reward.  So if you're
willing to risk all that pain that most of us have felt, then with that risk
comes the chance for that type of happiness we all want (okay, at least *I*
do!  ;-) ).


	I want to thank all who have responded, it's caused me to think and
to understand more than I had.


Brian

re: .3 (Kelly Poshusta)    	
    
I'm fascinated!  Please elaborate.

You wrote 

>  A koan can only be understood by the questioner.


Forgive my ignorance, but I had to look up the word "koan" in the dictionary.

koan    a paradox to be meditated upon that is used to train Zen Buddhist
        monks to abandon ultimate dependence on reason and to force them 
        into gaining sudden intuitive enlightenment

Are you saying you see a paradox in my description of the problem I have 
getting "too close" with men?  Or do you think I am trying to apply logic 
and reason where instead intuition should be used?
    							  nancy b.

re: .8 (Jim Baranski)
    -----------------

> Nancy, it might be helpfull for you to look at how/if these events
> in your life is interrelated figuratively and literally, and what
> reality probably is, and what your feelings are.

OK.  Here's the simplified version:

My brother dying was a tremendous shock which left me very numb.  
Because of that, I think the initial effects of being raped were not 
as severe as they otherwise would've been.   My SO breaking up with me 
was a shock that almost equaled my brother dying.  It was related
to the rape, because he would not do anything with me physically
afterwards, when I desparately wanted to be touched and reassured.  
And that is related to this topic, because I don't want a man
to be able to hurt me that badly again. 

> It's a good bet (not knowing anything) that your SO
> leaving you was caused by the after affects of your rape.

No, Jim, that is not a good bet.

I had no major "after effects" for about a month (until I went to a GYN for
the first time since the incident.)  I was honestly quite calm and rational
during that time, which was when he broke up with me.

The one exception to my mental calm in that first month was when my period
didn't arrive as expected.  I was terrified out of my mind that I was
pregnant.  The *&%$* doctor hadn't told me that one of the side effects of
whatever the drug was they gave me to prevent pregnancy would also throw
off my cycle.

> Is there any connection within you between your brother dying and your
> rape?

At first read, I thought "What a dumb question." ... but maybe I
misinterpreted your words ... there is obviously no connection between the
events themselves.

But if you are asking about the relation between the two events to me
now... the relation is that I desparately wanted to talk with my brother
about everything, and he wasn't there when I needed him.


>> "Why should I let any man get close to me when I've only been hurt by
>> the ones I've loved and respected the most?" 

> Do you mean that ALL the people you have loved have ALLWAYS hurt you?

No, Jim.  I did not say ALL or ALLWAYS anywhere in that sentence.  I mean
what I said - that I'd been hurt by the men that I loved *the most* (my
emphasis on above).   This does not mean I've been hurt by all people I've
ever loved.

> Is that what how you feel?  I think that is most likely a rather
> sweeping inaccurate generalization.

No.  It is not a generalization at all.  It refers to 2 men in particular -
my brother and my SO.

> Surely there have been some people you have loved who have not hurt you
> all the time.  

Yes, there are.

>> "And if I'm enjoying the relationships where I have the other types of
>> closeness you described above, why should I unprotect myself?"

> Because perhaps there is a factor in relationships that you are missing out
> on by protecting yourself so thoroughly.  Do you think you are missing out? 

I guess I've accepted that security has it's price.

Sometimes, you just have to risk it, though.  I admit, when I have done
so, it has been very rewarding.  Scary, but rewarding.

> I think it is a necessary to accept that bad things happen, and surmount
> the effects of tragedy in our lives, 

Easier said than done, as I'm sure you can guess.  But I'm trying.

> rather then trying to ensure that nothing bad ever happens to us.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing to try to do.

							    nancy b.

Er, ah... Nancy...  

my earlier notes were not question_for_you_to_tell_me_the_answers_to, they were
questions_for_*you_to_think_about*_for_yourself.  However, I am glad that you
choose to share yourself with us. :-)

"My SO breaking up with me was a shock that almost equaled my brother dying.  It
was related to the rape, because he would not do anything with me physically
afterwards, when I desparately wanted to be touched and reassured."

"No, Jim, that is not a good bet." [ that youy breakup was related to the rape] 

Aren't you contradicting yourself?  Regardless of the answer, it was still a
good bet based on what I knew. :-) 

> Is there any connection within you between your brother dying and your
> rape?

"At first read, I thought "What a dumb question."" [connection between death and
rape?]

Not at all.  I'm confused about whether there was any connection between the
rape and the break up.  You say there isn't, but also say that the rape left you
wanting reassurance, and your SO not being able to give it.  That is a
connection if no other.  If you were emotionally dead from your brother's death
and that contributed to you being in a situation leading to the rape which you
would have ordinarily would have avoided, that's a connection.  Don't think so
much as in cause and effect, but in your path from point a to point b to point
c... 

"I mean what I said - that I'd been hurt by the men that I loved *the most* (my
emphasis on above)."

Hmmm...  Try thinking about it a different way for a moment.  If it were me
saying this, I can see that this might be a distortion like the proverbial "You
always find the thing you are looking for in the last place you look."  

The saying is meant to be pessimistic, but it is really common sense.  Of course
you always find what you are looking for in the last place you look ... if you
didn't find it, you would keep looking!  ... Or give up, but that tends to get
forgotten. 

In the same way 'I've been hurt by those I loved the most' is pessimistic, but
can be common place.  Human beings tend to be in one of two logical states.
Either they are in love with someone, or they've been hurt by someone they
loved.  We tend to accumulate the latter, but not the former. (more's the pity)

So at any given time most people have been hurt the most by someone they've
loved. (people we love mean a great deal to us; people we don't love can't hurt
us badly because they don't mean much to us)  About half the people at any given
time are not currently in love and probably have just been hurt.  (there are
also the people who don't allow themselves to love or get hurt)

"I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing to try to do." [ensure no bad] 

Bad?  I doubt it...  It is your life, it is your choice.  Are you missing out?
I think so, but that's just my opinion.

Again, my previous questions were for questions for you, not answers for me. And
since I don't know much about you or the situation a lot of what I say will be
way off base.  Feel free to disregard anything that doesn't fit your knowledge
of the situation *after* you think about it.   If my notes or your replies are
not helping, don't bother; if they are helping feel free... 

I guess what I say in this note is basically that everyone gets hurt.  What
seems to differ is how we react to that reality and what we choose as goals
(avoid pain or take chances for possible love) for the rest of our lives based
on our experiences (being hurt). 

Good luck.  Do what will make yourself happy.
 
Jim.