Conference quark::human_relations-v1

>	...and trying to fix in my mind the difference between
>	seduction and date rape.

I thought, all the difference in the world. In seduction, one 
induces the partner to have sex. Rape is the CRIME of FORCING 
another to have sex.

Rape is ugly and denotes violation of the attacked person, rather
that sexual desire. 

In many ways, seduction is nice and denotes attraction. It implies a
compliment (I like/love/want you) and respect (I'd like to talk/play
you into it, rather than force you). There's no coercion (we're both
adults, it's up to you) and if she says "no", there's no harm done
(if you don't wanna, it's OK - I'll go lick my wounds in the other
room). 

-- Ron 

    Perhaps I did not explain myself well enough...if your date says
    no mentally and yet responds to you physically agreed it is
    not date rape...but it isn't quite as pleasant an experience
    as it use to be.  When the experience is over and your head is 
    back on straight...the reality of the risks involved returns.
    
    It is a dangerous game...if mentally you are unprepared for
    intimacy and you are seduced you probably don't have with you
    what is needed...
    
    And maybe seduction is an old fashioned word.

    
    Hmmm...interesting word, seduction.
    
    Two comments...
    
    First, I don't think it was ever *fun*. Seduction implies the dominance
    of one person's will over another. To *induce*....why....do you
    need to induce intimacy? If you need to induce it, I dare say it's
    not all that much fun for the inductee...[well, perhaps exhillerating,
    but fun?] I think that the *action* we are refering to is flirting,
    not seduction. Flirting *is* fun and can or *cannot* lead to actual
    culmination.
    
    Second, why do I get the feeling that the *inductee* in this scenario
    is portrayed as powerless? I am appalled by the mind-set that
    is described in .2....once your head is back on straight!!! Whoa!
    So why did you have if off in the first place? I am sorry, but I rather
    think that particpants in adult games should take responsibility
    for their own actions...having one's head off is never a reasonable
    excuse.  If I am weak enough to allow physical need and desire to
    overcome my own good sense, then who is to blame? The seducer? I
    think not. If *I* succomb, it is my decision or lack thereof.
    
    Third...[so, I lied...I have three instead of two...]...this is
    a sexless reply. Women and men *both* seduce or try to....and I
    think the above two comments apply to either sex. Whether they are
    the person trying to *induce* or losing one's head.
    
    Melinda

First, I wouldn't know whether it's fun or not - I have never been
seduced in my life... However, if memory serves, I have heard from
the best authorities --more than once, too-- that being seduced is
an extremely pleasant experience. 

Second, from page 354 of my American Heritage Dictionary:

	INDUCE v. 1. To prevail upon; persuade or influence.

There is nothing in there about holding a gun to the person's head.
In other words, the seduced person can always say "No", or even 
"NO!!!". Of course, when your heart's on fire, smoke gets in your
eyes; once you cool down, you may have second thoughts. But, hey,
the assumption is, both people are adults. Both know --or should
have known-- What they were doing.

-- Ron

Re: .5

> seduced in my life... However, if memory serves, I have heard from
> the best authorities --more than once, too-- that being seduced is
> an extremely pleasant experience. 

Ron, it is, indeed, a *ver* pleasant experience.

> NO!!!". Of course, when your heart's on fire, smoke gets in your
                               ^^^^^
Usually, I find the part that's on fire is somewhat lower than my
heart. :-)

  Alan                              

re: 793.6

	I have lust in my heart...

	...but it's moving south.

						--D

      Sex is certainly powerfull. There are times it can seem the MOST
      IMPORTANT THING IN THE UNIVERSE. Those times it is very difficult
      to see through the red haze of passion and remember that there is
      a tomorrow that must be faced. Probably has something to do with
      survival of the species and the need to procreate.

      I think I know what Joyce is getting at though. Sex can be
      downright dangerous with the wrong person (per all our notes on
      AIDS and STDs). And sometimes the wrong person may use very strong
      persuasion to convince you otherwise. It's exciting to feel
      desired and that is a seduction all on its own.

      Now that I've said all that - being seduced by someone who you
      want to have sex with can be a most thrilling and enjoyable
      experience. ;*) liesl

      p.s. never sleep with a person you wouldn't want to be seen with
      in a pancake house on sunday morning...

    Re .8, Liesl, "never have sex with a person you wouldn't want to
    be seen with in a pancake house on a Sunday morning" - ha-ha - that's
    cute.  I know I try to live by that rule - :-) - and, for the most
    part, have succeeded.  What really hurts is when you realize that
    you have just let somebody seduce *you* who wouldn't want to be
    seen with *you* in a pancake house on a Sunday morning - so that's
    something to consider, too.  (Ah, but would this person want to
    be seen with me in a pancake house on a Sunday morning?  If the
    reason they wouldn't is because they're married, then that's a whole
    different story, depending on your own code of ethics.  But, if
    they're single, you'd better make sure it's gonna be worth your
    while because you may feel like sh*t for a couple of days.  Then,
    again, maybe some experiences are worth feeling like sh*t for a
    couple of days over.  Only you can decide.)
    
    Re .6, Alan, maybe one of the problems with seduction is that too
    often the whole business doesn't have much to do with men's *hearts*
    (but only something lower)! :-)
    
    Let's face it, seductions are more fun when they turn into romances
    but as long as nobody catches a disease or gets pregnant, I don't
    see a problem.  
    
    Lorna
    

RE: .9

    
>    Let's face it, seductions are more fun when they turn into
>    romances...

Actually, seductions are most fun when they are part of an already
existing romance. 

Say, a man is already in a relationship and has 'access' to his lady
anyway... Yet, taking her out, ordering one too many for her, saying
the things that make her laugh, telling her things that make her
melt, and (finally) seducing her again - gives 'fun' a new meaning. 

But this is not the kind of 'seduction' .0 was about.

-- Ron

    -1
    
    The kind of seduction you're talking about is "safe."
          
    There is no challenge.
    
    Dwight

  My $ .02

  .0> I have been thinking about this for a few days...and trying to fix in my
  .0> mind the difference between seduction and date rape.

    I have been thinking about this for 20 years and I still can't tell
    the difference "before", only after.  Maybe this is why I never
    wanted to seduce a woman, I always wanted equal amounts of
    enthusiasm (which causes problems when your partner wants the
    thrill of being pursued!)

  .5>  [...]   Of course, when your heart's on fire, smoke gets in your
  .5> eyes; once you cool down, you may have second thoughts.

    Very true, which means, HOW do you know "before" you go to the
    pancake house for breakfast that; 

 .11> The kind of seduction you're talking about is "safe."

    If you think that;
    
 .10> [...] taking her out, ordering one too many for her, saying
 .10> the things that make her laugh, telling her things that make her
 .10> melt, and (finally) seducing her again - gives 'fun' a new meaning. 
    
    And the next morning at the pancake house she (insert 'he' if
    appropriate) says to you;
        " [...] you took advantage of me
          [...] I trusted you, and now I feel used [...]"

    What do you say?  "Oopps"
    IMHO, seduction is a big risk.  No matter how loving and gentle you
    are, your partner is the one who defines the activity as seduction
    or date rape.  What was/could have been a greate relationship, now
    has a problem.


    Richard
    (Who is wonder, now that he's re-read what he wrote, am I paranoid?
     Seduction sounds like great fun, if I could figure out how!)

    To me, there is one big difference  between seduction and date rape--
    
    Seduction ends in lovemaking by mutual consent.  Date rape is exactly
    that--there is no consent, unless by the rapist.   
    
    kim

I think that there's a huge difference between seduction and date rape.

When one person seduces another, s/he brings the relationship from one
that is non-sexual at the time, to one that is very sexual.  This is
(usually) done slowly and subtly, bringing the other person closer and 
closer through exchanged signals.  The seducer instigates these signals, 
and the seducee picks up on them, signaling acceptance of them, and desire 
for them to continue. 

The key here is the signals that the pursued individual gives off.  In date 
rape, the pursuer indicates sexual interest, and the victim says, in one way 
or another, no.  This is ignored, and the pursuer continues the sexual 
pressure, coming on stronger and stronger as the previous weaker signals 
are deflected in one way or another.  Depending on the situation, the 
pressure could become very strong, and the victim might not know how to 
deal with it.  His/her feelings are being ignored here.  He/she is saying 
"no," yet this is being interpreted as "yes."  The victim will think that 
they're giving signals of "no" that are too weak, and will try to strengthen 
them.  But as far as the pursuer is concerned, no means yes, and the 
sexuality is pressed still further.

In my mind (I'm not sure of the official definitions), the difference
between date rape and out-and-out rape is that in rape the victim is 
out-and-out physically attacked - it has nothing to do with subtle 
interpersonal interactions.  _Rape_ can certainly happen on a date.  If 
someone is kicking and screaming while being sexually forced, that's rape.  
Date rape is nowhere near as blatant, which is why people often don't 
realize until too late that they did something against their will.  A 
date-rapist is smiling and being *nice* through it all, yet is ignoring 
the other person's wishes (or probably thinks that they "don't really
mean it").  It's frightening how conditioned we are to think that if 
someone is being nice to us, we have to be nice back.  

In this situation, the victim has three choices:

       1. Tell the person off - break out of the pattern of deflecting
	  the ever-increasing "passes" and say NO!!!!! with the subtlety 
	  of a sledgehammer.  In this case the pursuer will have to either 
	  stop the pursuing, or cross the line into _Rape_.  Depending on 
	  how strong the pressure is at this point, this may or may not
	  work ("She/he *wants* it," is what the rapist is thinking).

       2. Keep on smiling, but get away from the pursuer.  The pattern 
	  has now been broken by the victim's removing him/herself from 
	  the situation, and the victim never had to be out-and-out nasty
	  to the pursuer.

       3. Stay within the pattern - the pressure will become stronger,
	  and the subtly applied "no's" will be ignored, until the victim
	  feels that if they're in this situation, it must be what they
	  asked for.


Yes, it would be wonderful if everyone knew exactly what their mind was
and had no problem stating their preferences clearly at the outset.  A
date-rape victim *has* stated his or her preferences, but they have been
ignored (with a smile), and they think that they must not have gotten 
their point across (and they probably never expected this kind of pressure
from this person - so they're caught off-guard).

It's a horrible situation to be in.  I have not been "date-raped" per se,
but I was recently in a situation where an individual was "pursuing" me,
at first subtly and then not-so-subtly.  Every signal that I gave off
clearly said "no," but I was too "nice" to apply my point with a sledgehammer,
as it were.  I chose to leave (with a smile) instead, and it wasn't until 
the next day that I was able to see what had happened, and be furious at 
how the other individual had repeatedly ignored my wishes.  

He talked about being attracted to me; I talked about how committed I am to 
my boyfriend.  He tried to fondle my hand (several times); I pulled it away
(more and more violently each time).  He tried to kiss me (after more shows
of lack of interest and more talk about my serious relationship!!!), and 
when I pulled away and said "NO" (very clearly this time), he raised his 
eyebrows and said "Really?"  At this point I very, very clearly said "listen, 
I have absolutely no interest in you sexually - leave me alone."  He talked 
about how the sex was bad in his marriage (the guy was married for heaven's 
sake!!!  I did nothing to deserve this treatment but be nice to the guy - 
something I do with most people, without such results).  I told him that
was between him and his wife, and he agreed.

After all this, and talk about how he hoped he hadn't made me uncomfortable,
he invited me up to his hotel for a Coke.  There's absolutely no getting
through to some people.  Date rape is perpetrated by those with selective 
reality - where someone is saying no, and they consistently interpret it as 
yes.  It can be *extremely* subtle at first (as I found out), and only with 
a little perspective on the situation can you really see what happened.

I'm no expert on date-rape, but what happened set me thinking, and I've 
shared my interpretation of it.  Sorry if I ran on (quite) a bit, one fact 
about being put in the above situation, is that it's *very* upsetting, even 
though you know that you did nothing to deserve it!!!!


 - Sarah

	I was  confused and  surprised on  reading this topic here a
	while back  when seduction  was spoken  of negatively and in
	the context of date rape.

	My attitude  towards seduction  basically  echoes  .4  (Mike
	Zarlenga) --  that seduction  is a "mutual thing" and can be
	fun.

	However, the  book  "Surviving  Sexual  Violence"  describes
	research on  rape in  terms that  would support  thinking of
	seduction in negative terms... :

	     "Many  rapes  merely  extend  traditional  heterosexual
	     exchanges,  in   which  masculine  pursuit  and  female
	     reticence are  familiar and  formalized.  Although rape
	     is a  gross exaggeration  of gender  power, it contains
	     the  rules   and  rituals  of  heterosexual  encounter,
	     seduction, and conquest."
	     .
	     .
	     "It  is   equally  relevant   to  ask  if  rather  than
	     distortion, rapists  may not  represent one  end  of  a
	     quasi-socially  sanctioned  continuum  of  male  sexual
	     aggression."

	... which  only confuses  me more (that seduction is part of
	rape).

	Clarification, anyone?
	                                             nancy b.

I can only speak from personal opinion and observations(not voyeourism :-})
IMO date-rape is not very different from forcible rape by a stranger in an
alley(or wherever) it is still the violation of the attacked by the attacker
a legal system that allows any differentiation is wrong.

Seduction should be fun, it should stop immediately when one or the other
person says "NO". it may be continued later but should "start-over"
not pick-up from the point where someone said *NO*. if the same point is
reached and *NO* is encountered then it is time to quit *NOT* to apply
pressure, and certainly to never assume that no=yes. 

I have heard men say "oh they always say no when they mean yes"
I don't believe it, I always found women would say yes if that was what they
meant and  when they said no they meant that too.

 My personal observations have been that women sometimes say no when they
mean yes. But they always mean no when they say NO!

**** caution: explicit example follows! ****

 For instance, one particular woman said no while at the same time raising
her buttocks so as to allow me to remove her undergarments (a sure sign of
yes). Afterwords, I asked her why she said no while meaning yes. She said
she wasn't sure, but that it was related to social pressures on easy girls.
I explained that her body language and her words were inconsistent, and that
it could be confusing for a guy. I don't know if she ever changed her
modus operandi.

 It is very rare that a guy can mistake negative body language.

 re: seduction

 Many seductions are games. Each person plays a role. The man is usually the
aggressor. The woman is often coy or somewhat reticent (and needing to be
coaxed.) I think that many date rapes occur when the man has decided the
outcome of the game before the game begins and causes the outcome regardless
of the disposition of the woman. The seduction thing is not always guaranteed.
In fact, seduction very often leads to no conclusion at all (too often, if
you ask me :-) but that was before I was married.:-)

 The Doctah
    

    seduction influences to an outcome to which neither party has inherent
    objections
    
    date rape forces an outcome in the absence of consent.
    
    persuasion is _not_ coercion.  psychological pressure/blackmail is
    _not_ seduction
    
       Ann