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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

788.0. "How to protect my son's innocence?" by QUARK::HR_MODERATOR () Mon Jun 26 1989 15:40

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				Steve

				




I have a sticky situation here and I haven't really decided yet "How" I"m
going to handle it.  I'd appreciate any advice I receive from this.  I will
sleep on it for a week or two before I act. 

I'm in the process of a long drawn out divorce.  The worst is basically over
but we still have a few more things to go through before it's final.  Anyway,
on Saturday's my son goes to my ex-husbands house to sleep over.  My ex lives
with his girlfriend.  Anyway, yesterday morning they were sleeping and my son
didn't have anything to do.  He poked around a bit (he's 11 now) and found a
tape to watch in the VCR.  Anyway the tape had a title that
would make a child, and most adults think that it's a family tape and would be
fun to watch. To my son's amazement, it was a "skin flick" with 2 women in it.
When he realized what it was, he stopped watching it and put it away.  When I
tucked him in last night he was telling me about it because he felt "guilty"
for seeing part of it. I felt so very bad for him and so upset and mad at my
ex at the same time which I didn't let my son see. He confided in me and said
to please not "tell daddy" that he found it. I'm sure (knowing my ex) that he
would be very mad at my son for finding it. 

Now I'm wondering what exactly to do. A few thoughts are going through my
head.  Should I talk to my ex (our relationship now is still somewhat hostile
but not too bad) tell him what "our" son found and ask him to please keep his
things like that in his own room far away from innocent hands? (The tape was
found in the family room) and if so how do I be tactful about it?  It's none
of my business what he does now in his new life.  Should I let it slide?  I
told my son not to go poking around anymore no matter how board he was.  He
said he wouldn't.  I'm worried because yes, my son may not want to watch that
tape now but what if he becomes curious in a year or two down the road?
Naturally I don't want him exposed to that kind of stuff.  What if my ex has
more of those type of tapes?  What else does he have "kicking around"?  What
if my ex's girlfriend's son finds it? (He's almost 16) or what if it's
actually her son's tape and they don't know about it - then I'll be exposing
her son.  What if it's "her" tape and my ex doesn't know about it?  Or what if
it's my "ex's" tape and she doesn't know about it?  How can I be reassured
that my son will not be exposed to that type of thing while he's visiting
there?  Yet, how can I "butt in" about what they keep in their own home ect? 
It's a sticky situation.  My son confided in me not to say anything at all
reassuring me that something like that wouldn't happen again - how will my son
trust me if I he knows I said something? But at the same time, how can I just
let it lie worrying about if there are more tapes and other things?  My ex was,
(and I suspect he still is) "irresponsible" so he will become very
defensive and mad etc, if I bring up the subject.  I'm not sure yet how I'm
going to handle this..... 


Anyone got any suggestions?
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
788.1You can't protect their innocence!MARCIE::JLAMOTTEJ & J's MemereMon Jun 26 1989 16:1828
    Knowing what I know now I think everything is fine.  My boys are
    men and they survived many inappropriate introductions to intimacy
    each in their own way.
    
    The most important thing is your young man confided in you and in
    so doing asked you not to tell his father.  How you honor that this
    week is the basis of the next six or seven years.  This is the only
    real issue in your note.
    
    If your son is interested in this type or any pornography
    in the future he is going to be able to find it.  I personally would
    prefer that he find it in his father's home then on the street.
    
    I also, in a similar situation, expressed to my son my views about
    pornography and how I felt about it.  I told him that other people
    look at it differently and that doesn't necessarily make them bad.
    
    My boys did not have their father around during the years that they
    were exploring their sexuality and I think it caused a lot of trouble.
    Whether or not you approve of your ex's viewing tastes I think it
    is important that your son feel comfortable talking to his father
    about sex.  
    
    Good luck, a difficult situation....
    
    Joyce
    
    
788.2VMSSG::NICHOLSHerb - CSSE support for VMSMon Jun 26 1989 16:5919
    re .-1
    <knowing what I know now I think everything is fine>
    What do you know that causes you to conclude everything is fine.
    
    <your young man>
    That is an interesting turn of a phrase for somebody who is 11. I think
    it is more appropriate to characterize him at most as a boy, if not as
    a little boy.
    
    re .-2
    I am particularly struck by the fact that it is a skin flick of two
    women! Who owns it and why?
    It may well be that watching a "skin flick" at 11 is no more "damaging"
    that reading a hidden copy of God's Little Acre was when I was 10-11 forty
    years ago, not sure. 
    But, my intuition is that your son wants you to take some action. I think
    that wants to be explored. If you do chose to take action, the ONLY
    think you should be concerned about is your son and his welfare.
    So almost all your "whatifs" can be ignored.
788.3MAMTS1::TTAYLORMon Jun 26 1989 17:0425
    Hi.
    
    I agree with .1, and I don't think it's such a good idea to betray
    your son's confidence.  He may resent you and it will cause him
    a lot of embarassment and lack of self-esteem (especially if the
    father takes him to task).
    
    Have you given him "the facts of life" bit yet?  Maybe now's a good
    time to do so!  Usually these things don't have a major impact on
    a child, I remember once my parents went to the drive-ins and took
    us, the movie was "R" rated but we were supposedly sleeping (I was
    about 5 at the time) and I peeked.  It didn't do anything for me,
    I wasn't even curious!
    
    Maybe you should have a talk with your ex and tell him that now
    that he's dating he should be extra careful about how he conducts
    his life around your son.  It shouldn't be so much of a sacrifice
    for him to limit his freedom sexually for a weekend (but then again,
    ....)
    
    Good luck!
    
    Tammi
    
    
788.4guilt & secretsYODA::BARANSKILooking for the green flashMon Jun 26 1989 18:3636
To answer the title question "How to protect my son's innocence?"...

You can't.  Especially if he spends any amount of time away from you, and not
just at his fathers; you can't period.  If he wanted it, he could find it, if he
doesn't want it, he won't be interested in it if it's shoved in his face. 

From what you've said, it seems like his biggest reaction is "guilt" at having
seen something that he wasn't supposed to.  It says a lot that he choose to talk
to you about it...  Now it might be that he 'wants' you to take some action
against his father, but it's not really appropriate for you to get yourself in
the middle of that. First off, make sure that you tell him how glad you were
that he could talk to you about it.  Second, make sure that he understands that
he has nothing to feel guilty about, and that there is nothing to be guilty
about or bad about sex, bodies, nudity, etc  (whether "pornography" is bad
is an entirely different question) THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN PROTECTING
HIS 'INNOCENCE'!

Now, what can you do?  While it may be important to not interfere, it may even
help to show that you have no intention of interferring.  Perhaps you could
bring the subject up, and be explicit that you don't want to tell your ex what
to do, but that you wis he would *please* think about leaving stuff around. I
worry about your son 'keeping a secret' that he saw the tape, from his father,
and how that might taint their relationship.  It would be better if it could be
brought out in the open, put to rest.  You would have to talk over ways to do
that with your son. 

As to who's is it, and who else might see it?  Forget it.  It's not your
responsibility.  Don't take on more worry then you have to.

It might be that the tape is somewhere where you could 'discover' the tape
and bring up the discussion about it. 

If you haven't talked with him about the birds and the bees, now is a good time
to do it.  Be prepared to answer why you *think* people watch tapes like that.

Jim. 
788.5My two cents worthTRITON::SHAMELMon Jun 26 1989 20:3490
   An interesting situation. I think your son did just fine. He was bored and
so he looked around for something to keep him occupied. Assuming that he is a
welcomed guest in your ex's home (or your ex's girlfriend's home), he is free
to make himself at home while he is there. I would consider anything that is
right out in the open in the Family room to be fair game as far as reading
material, games, toys, VCR tapes etc. It does not sound like he went digging
through boxes, drawers or looking under the sofa for something to do. 

    It seems that when he saw the tape he must have thought something like "Uh
oh! This is a dirty movie! I'm not supposed to be watching this!" This reaction
means that he has already lost at least some of his innocence. Otherwise he
wouldn't realize what it was. Apparently he has already learned that sex, or
at least nudity, is bad, or dirty, or only for adults...etc. (none of those 
things are "bad", IMHO, but we are often taught this as children.) Because of
his guilt he put the tape back. Unless your son was asked not to use the VCR
he did nothing wrong (my opinion only - as you point out, your ex may think
otherwise and there is almost nothing you can do about that). 

> Now I'm wondering what exactly to do. A few thoughts are going through
> my head.  Should I talk to my ex (our relationship now is still
> somewhat hostile but not too bad) tell him what "our" son found and
> ask him to please keep his things like that in his own room far away
> from innocent hands? (The tape was found in the family room) and if so
> how do I be tactful about it? 

   If it bothers you then, yes, I would talk to him about it. It is a big
concern for you and it affects you. In dealing with your ex I would avoid
phrases like "my son", "your son" or "our son" because it implies ownership.
(I don't mean NEVER use those terms - in casual conversation they are the
accepted norm.) Your son is his own person with his own identity, just use
his name. You might try saying something to your ex like: "I'd like to talk to
you about something that concerns me. Last Sunday morning while you were still
sleeping (enter your son's name here) was looking for something to do and
came across a VCR tape called (enter title of tape here) which, based on
the title, sounded like it might be fun to watch. He stopped watching it as
soon as he realized what it was and put it back. I am concerned about his
exposure to this kind of material so I was wondering if you would be willing
to make the effort to tidy up your house a little bit before he comes over on
Saturdays?" This would allow you to express your concern in a non threatening
way. I have no idea how your ex may react to the information but I am sure it
would be a lot worse if you yelled at him "You're son isn't going to spend
any more Saturday nights with you unless you get rid of all the smut you have
laying around the house!"

    It could be that the tape was marked as an adult movie or "X" or even
"XXX" somewhere on the case but that would be easy for anyone to overlook
if they were just scanning the titles and thought "Oh, this one sounds 
interesting.", toss it in the VCR and hit PLAY.   One thing you could do in
the future is to see that you son takes something with him to keep him busy if
he has nothing else to do. Also, I would tell your son that you talked to
his father about it. If you don't, and your ex says something about it to
your son, your son may learn not to trust you in the future.

> I'm worried because yes, my son may not want to watch that tape
> now but what if he becomes curious in a year or two down the road?

   As .1 pointed out, he is going to find out sooner or later. You might want
to find out when they begin sex education in school. There are also books
about sex for children in bookstores - even for very young children. If you
or the school don't teach him about sex, somebody else will.

What if my ex has more of those type of tapes?
What else does he have "kicking around"?
What if my ex's girlfriend's son finds it? (He's almost 16) or
what if it's actually her son's tape and they don't know about it 
What if it's "her" tape and my ex doesn't know about it?
Or what if it's my "ex's" tape and she doesn't know about it?

   Whoa! Slow down.... these are NOT your problems! You are not responsible
for these people. You are concerned about your son. What difference does it
make who's tape it is? Why should you care? If expressing your concern about
the tape causes a problem at the girlfriends house then that is THEIR problem
and THEIR responsibility, not yours! You can drive yourself CRAZY worrying
about all these things that have nothing to do with you.

> How can I be reassured that my son will not be exposed to that type of thing
> while he's visiting there? 

   Only by asking for help from your ex. Come right out and tell him "I need
your help with this." I don't think you are asking very much of him. When/if
you decide to talk to him, try to stick to your concern about your son. Try not
to get sidetracked from the main issue and blame your ex for your son's
"exposure" or let your ex blame your son for watching it, or blame you for
raising a son that invades other people's privacy.... or whatever. Blame is not
the issue, you son's well being is. 

     I hope these suggestions (and I stress, they are ONLY suggestions) help
you in some way. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do. 

   Rick
788.6ACESMK::CHELSEAMostly harmless.Mon Jun 26 1989 23:2921
    Re: .0
    
    >He confided in me and said to please not "tell daddy" that he found it.
    
    If you do decide to talk to your ex, talk to your son first.  Explain
    why you feel the need to refuse his request not to "spill the beans." 
    If you're going to do something he'd rather you not do, it's better not
    to do it behind his back.  It's not like he won't find out about it,
    since his father is likely to be angry with him.
    
    I agree with the consensus -- this is probably not going to incur any
    serious damage to your son's innocence.  From what I can recall of kids
    I babysat, he probably knows (or thinks he knows) a lot more than you
    realize.  As he gets older and his hormones kick in, he'll be a lot
    more curious about sex.  An interest in pornography might not mean that
    he's "hooked" on the stuff; it might simply be a way of learning about
    that Great Mystery of adolescence.
    
    If it's the lesbian aspect that bothers you, I suspect your son is
    familiar with at least the concept of homosexuality.  That's something
    to discuss with when you're explaining other aspects of sex.
788.7...pack a back-pack...NEXUS::BIONDITue Jun 27 1989 03:5421
What if, if,if,if,if, ...etc.....CHILL OUT!!! That will drive you crazy!
    You mentioned it's a 'hostile' divorce at this time, so what ever
    you do will cause more hostility by confronting your so called ex
    & his lover about the tape..I would be concerned more about keeping
    your son's request in not telling, (it could have been a forgotten
    tape left out accidently, not purposely).  A divorce is new to anyone
    and to solve the tape problem and your son's bordom, try packing
    his own back pack for Dad's weekend and put some of his own favorite
    toys, rent some movie for him or have him pick out his favorite
    movies from your house to take and watch at Dad's.  This way you
    would feel safe knowing your son wont be bored again.  By you making
    such a big fuss over this situation, your son may not confide in
    you again because he sees how upset it makes you...and he can't
    confide in Dad because Dad will get mad too...try to relax and not
    worry too much, pack some books too..even comic magazines!  
    
    P.S.  When miss lover comes out in a black teddy in front of son,
    then it's time to get upset!!
    
    Kathy
    
788.8SUBURB::GLOVERPI'll have a TanglefootTue Jun 27 1989 12:1731
       
    I think you could try looking at it from another angle,and you may
    not agree,but you are going to get alot of these situations as time
    goes on,to differing degrees but non the less,they will involve
    decisions that will/may need involvement with your ex.
    
    My father left and set up shop with his girlfriend when I was 11,and
    as is normal spent Saturdays with him and her,knowing at that time
    the hassle both parents were going through,arguments and bad feelings,
    never agreeing about anything,but both trying to make out that
    everything was "really ok"
    
    The thing that always stuck in my mind when I used to go back home
    though,was the amount of agro my mother was going through so I used
    to do two things, the 1st was try and get some reassurance that
    it was ok to go and visit him,by telling her what *we* did,and the
    2nd was to run the other women down,again to say"I'm seeing my
    dad, not her" which did not always work (I only found this out 4
    yrs ago!) It ended up just worrying ma as to what sort of place
    I was going to.
    
    If I was in your situation,and i know I'm not,I would'nt say anything
    about it at this stage of his re-ajustment,he has to get used to
    the situation,but as time goes on,you will be the person he'll need
    to come to for advise that" family" kids dont need to ask,stuff
    about his dad etc.etc. and the last thing he will want to feel is
    that he cant trust you.
    
    Help? maybe it will or not but I hope it does.
    
    PJg
788.9Did you know?ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIlingering deep within your eyesTue Jun 27 1989 12:2246
                                       
    	Re .0-
    
    	"Protecting your son's innocence", the idea of that, sorta invokes
    an uneasy feeling in me. I see the Great_Motherly_Shield which can
    be at times and in certain contexts, inappropriate. I was one who
    was, shall we say, "virtually" abandoned by my mother in her over-
    protectiveness of me.
    
    	That he did bring this up and *talk* with you about it is just
    fantastic on his part, I feel. I dis-agree however with the "sweeping
    it under the rug" - just forgetting about the incident - "cause
    daddy will be mad" or for whatever other reasoning. As you can see
    and feel, doing that will cause it to eat at you from the inside
    and you can bet that it will do the same for your child. There *is*
    the now_exposed "no talk" family rule; the destroyer of self-esteem,
    the keeper of pain and the purveyor of purlonged misery.
    
    	Personally, I feel that he should be encouraged to talk about
    this with his dad and that he should know all about certain facts
    of life, especially one that says it's far better to "be in trouble"
    with somebody else (daddy in this case) than it is to be in trouble
    with *yourself*. The "trouble with yourself" in this case is the
    unresolution of that which he just happened upon and how it made him
    feel, which he did share with you, which is just so commendable! 
    
       (Children are naturally healthy - they *learn* how to be dis-eased.)
    
    	I see you feel the "trouble with yourself" over this, and the
    "proof" is that you felt it enough to reach out to this community
    for help in resolving the issue. Your son reached out to you as
    well, so let him go through it to *it's* resolution instead of
    "protecting" him from it. I realize he asked you "not to tell" or
    whatever and that is only cause he's scared, because going through
    things like this takes a certain bravery and *that* takes a certain
    understanding of how important it really is to do so.
    
    	Perhaps you might explain to him why it's so important to be
    brave at times and connect that with how important it is that he's
    true to himself and how he feels, above all.
    
    	You know, unresolved buried feelings often come back later as
    behavioral dysfunctions. I'm sure you trully want better than that
    for him. I wish you success with this!
                                              
    	Joe Jas
788.10APEHUB::RONTue Jun 27 1989 17:2633
I am by no means an expert on this subject - I can only relate my
experience in raising two daughters, who are grown up now. We always
treated sex as a natural phenomena, nothing to be secretive about or
ashamed of. By the age of six, they had already been taught the
facts of life and understood sex, from both the 'pro' and 're'
creative points of view. 

As a result, had one of them been faced with the same situation, she
would have probably brought it up with either parent, never thinking
to keep it a secret from the other. No guilt would have been
associated with it. Had she asked a question, she would have got a
straight, truthful and matter of fact answer. To us, integrity was
more important than innocence. 

The kids knew they could count on us. Had either confided in me and
asked for secrecy (never happened, but hypothetically), I would have
NEVER betrayed her confidence. I would have asked her to talk to her
mother, explaining that this is how we do things in this family and
that this is 'the right thing to do'. 

So, my answer to "how to keep my son's innocence?" is "Don't". I
feel its's more important to make him whole and honest with himself.

From the practical point of view, you can't really shut sexual
awareness out (including XXX movies) for long - by the time he's 13
or 14 it'll happen at a party, at a friend's house or in some movie
theater. The question is, can you bring him up to be able to talk to
you or his dad freely about it and to be able to handle it correctly
within himself. 

-- Ron

788.11from my pastAKAMAI::HILLWind and wavesSun Jul 02 1989 20:0533
    I remember being about 8 when I ran into my first "girlie" magazine
    (word of the times, you understand).  My friend's older brother had
    some issues of Playboy.  Living on a military base and playing in the
    woods, we sometimes ran into some other magazines.  I was probably
    about 10 or 11 when I discovered that my father had some stashed in the
    house.  To get to the point, it was a part growing up.  There wasn't
    the feeling of sexuality that an adult experiences.  It was more like
    having stumbled on some forbidden aspect of the adult world, similar to
    knowing where you father keeps his liquor.  Not to drink, because it
    didn't taste good, but just some sort of fascination with the adult
    world.  (Actually we did used to raid his Collin's mix, that tasted
    good, like the Fresca....) 
    
    I would tell your ex about it.  I'm a bachelor and live alone. I have
    incredible nieces and nephews, but have never had kids. One time, when
    my brother and his family came over, I had inadvertantly left a Playboy
    magazine in a "discoverable" place.  Hate to say it, but it was just
    something that never really dawned on me, that kids will poke around in
    unsual places in the process of exploring and dealing with boredom.
    Fortunately my brother found the magazine first.  He got all over my
    case about it, and we had a brief run-in. But, I was glad he told me.
    The mistake on my part was that it honestly never dawned on it what
    kids can get into.  Now that I know, I'm a lot more careful.  Feels
    kind of odd, though, because it's similar to being the kid and trying
    to hide something away from your parents, only the tables are reversed. 
    
    The idea of telling your ex about it will only work if you and he
    are in accord on the matter of sex education.  If he believes along
    the lines of "open knowledge about all things natural" then he may
    disagree and confront your son with the issue, thus perhaps weakening
    the confidentiality between you and your son.  
    
    charles