Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re: .0
    
    Please accept what I am about to say, as a hypothetical response,
    to a real problem shared by many people.
    
    As a means of establishing rapport; several years ago while working
    part time in an incoming inspection department, I met an adult woman
    (about 50 ish) who wanted to do three thins in her work life. (Yeah, I
    know, ALL adult females are woman by definition. However, some adults
    seem to have the mind of a 13 year old -qv PAC Transactions). 
    
    Come to work.
    
    Work her hours.
    
    Leave.
    
    She was totally against doing anything other than "her job", which
    consisted mainly of taking components from a box, putting them in the
    test fixture, then putting them into another  box (good, bad, retest). 
    
    I read your note, and was reminded of a situation with which I am
    familiar. The lady has low self esteem, and worries a lot about various
    things. Her SO is totally dedicated to her, and is able to perform "low
    level counseling". 
    
    The way this SO managed to get  around the resistance of going to
    counseling was to identify ONE thing she wanted to improve on. Together
    they could probably do it. But, because the specific behaviour was not
    "within or known" to him (so he said), it was necessary to consult
    another 'resource' who specialized in the correction of this behaviour. 
    
    Once she got some confidence in the  improvement of this behaviour,
    they were able to capitalize on this "learned  experience" by applying
    the rules of this success to the next "important" issue that SHE wanted
    to improve. IMPROVE, not "cure". RESOURCE of experience , Not
    Counseling or a Psychologist. In cases like these, semantics can be
    important; even clever euphemisms. Deceit is NEVER appropriate, unless
    a separation is desired. 
    
    Can this approach work ? Yes, it can. But, in my opinion, only by the
    people who WANT it to work, especially the person who needs it most. 
    
    (pls no 2nd  gsng.)

    

    
    	Stop enabling her, and give her some incentive to recover her
    self esteem. This hardly means "pull the plug" on her after 15 years
    or whatever, but rather a more gentle, subtle encouragement like
    "Gee Hon, we could almost make that 2 week Bermuda vacation this
    year" coying leaving out an explicit invalidation like "If it wasnt
    for *your* low paying job, we could've..."
    
    	Motivation must be desire based, in general. Guilt, shaming
    and talking in negative contexts usually gets poor results when trying
    to motivate someone to a positive end. If she has any desires, try
    to make that the "carrot" by subtly arranging things so that she
    *has to* secure a better work position in order to get it for herself.
    Like maybe that backyard pool, or the new car, or the sailboat she's
    always wanted. You can only give so much to someone before it becomes
    literally a bad thing to do for both them and you.
    
    	If she has no desire for anything and feels there's nothing
    to be gained from living anymore; no aspirations or future plans,
    etc, then I have no suggestions for even a point of leverage to
    work from.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    
    
    Re: .2,    Yeah Joe....some more good advice!!
    
    Kathy  :*)

It may simply be that she likes being supported mainly by you, and doesn't want
the responsibility of being a main breadwinner.  Therefore, you get stuck with
the job.  :-< Congratulations :-<

Jim. 

    It sounds to me like she is afraid of trying anything challenging.
    I am not sure this is something that will be changed after 15 years,
    by you, she may need professional help (if she wants help).  If she
    doesn't want to change, you will NOT change her.  Most people love
    challenging work, and I for one enjoy not having to depend on someone
    else to support me financially, but you haven't really told us what
    type of personality your spouse has.  Good luck, but remember people
    don't change other people, they change themselves!!

    
    	I'd also like to add a comment not brought out so far.
    	Trying to force someone to change when they don't want/
    	desire the change is one of the quickest ways to have the
    	love that person has for you to turn to hate. 
    
    	IMHO
    
    	G_B

    This is a reply from the author of the base note.

****************************************************************************
Here is some more info relative to my base note. My wife has always had a
HUGE fear of failure. I don't think that she likes challenges, preferring not to
"rock to boat". A good deal of this is because of her lack of self esteem
brought on by her earlier family life. In her parents world, women were not
supposed to be successful on their own, they only existed to shop and spend
money (a rather detestable attitude if I say so myself). She can't handle
conflict at all and usually prefers to run away from it rather that face it
head on.

What I'm basically saying is that she says that she "can't do any better" so
she won't even try. He whole life so far has been a long list of "I should have
done x" rather than where will I go next. She won't get any help profes-
sionally because she really doesn't believe that she has a problem. This
attitude has BADLY strained our relationship over the years, often bringing it
close to the breaking point.

In 15 years, I've have yet to be successful in breaking the influence of her
parents (may they retire to a VERY HOT place downstairs), even though we've
moved twice to get away from them geographically (currently over 4 hour drive).
I hope this background material fills in some of the blanks.

    I find .0's complaints very annoying.  (In fact, it crossed my mind
    that perhaps one more thing she should have done, is maybe she should
    have married somebody else.)  Has it crossed your mind, that the
    way you are dealing with this situation may be decreasing her
    self-esteem?  Afterall, she's married to you.  You're supposedly
    the closest person in her life, and yet apparently you have been
    able to do nothing to increase her self-esteem.  I find myself
    wondering why you even married her in the first place.  I wonder
    if you still love her and find her desirable or if you're such sick
    of her and willing to find fault.  What does she really want?  If
    she is happy with her life, and her job, what right do you have
    to make her change just because you want more money?  If you want
    or need more money maybe you should try to get a better job yourself???
     Afterall, she does work.  It's not as though she sat home on her
    ass all day and didn't do a damn thing.  Why should she spend her
    life being miserable trying to attain goals that you set for her
    just because you'd like to have more money and now perhaps consider your
    wife a burden? 
    
    Everybody doesn't want to be a product manager, or an engineer,
    and put all their energy into fighting for a high level job.  Maybe
    she'd prefer to take it easy and have a little less money.  That
    is her choice, not yours.  How would you like it if she told you
    what to do for work?  
    
    It would be one thing if she were complaining about not having enough
    money, but apparently you're the one who does that.  It would be
    one thing if she really wanted to be a product manager, for example,
    but was afraid to give presentations in front of VP's, and asked
    you for your help.  But, if she has no problem and is happy doing
    what she does, and *you* are the only one who is unhappy with *her*
    job, then I think you're the one with a problem and not her.  Either
    you love her and accept her the way she is, or maybe you should
    end the marriage and find a high level female excutive to marry.
    
    IMHO, :-),
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I think Lorna has offered some very good points to ponder.
    
    
    							Hank

    
    [ahem]
    
    Two divergent thoughts assail me...
    
    First...I don't know that I would have phrased them quite in that
    fashion, but I also think .8 has some good points to think about.
    
    So...you love her? So...you would like to see her more self-confident
    and fullfilled? We would all like to have the people we love do
    all these things, but *we* are never gonna make 'em...you know?
    
    Have you talked with her about what *she* wants out of her life?
    
    Does she perhaps just want to be a house wife? Or a Mom? Did she
    want to make the moves that put you in a more financially stressed
    position...or did you? Does she take part in family decisions so
    that she has an equal responsibility for supporting these moves?
    
    I think the point that the last couple of replies are making..is
    that you *appear* perhaps to be assessing *her* level of self
    actualization using *your* goals....and perhaps not hers...? *She*
    needs to buy in to wanting or needing something else or it is never
    going to happen.
    
    One of the most frustrating things that happens to folks, is to
    love someone and think they are wasting themselves. But, as a Mom
    who has occasionally tried to "motivate" her son, I have found that
    I am usually sorely lacking in real clairvoyance...I really *don't*
    know what is right for someone else.
    
    Second....on the other hand...your background information and some
    of the things you say about her view of herself really do smack
    of someone who *might* have some pretty severe problems with image.
    
    Some of the characteristics that you describe are right out of a
    textbook...but again, it is difficult to *force* anyone to seek
    or accept help. And parents of th sort you allude to are all too
    common...[grin]....
    
    Finally....a nasty question....[forgive me, but it's also an honest
    one....]...why *do* you, *did* you put up with it? It seems to be
    a pretty fundamental difference....and a point of on-going and painful
    disagreement...why do *you* subject yourself to such on-going misery?
    It usually takes two to do most anything....you may not *like* what
    she does, but you certainly make it possible....yes?
    
    Melinda