Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    	I've never been in a situation like yours, but I do admire your
    	courage to admit your weaknesses.  Good luck to you and to your
    	family.
    
    							Carla
    

         
         Well, I think it's a big point in your favor (and a necessary
         step towards resolving your problem) that you have admitted
         to yourself (and your family) that you have a problem. 
         
         My only other advice is to make sure that your kids
         especially know that you still love them (even if you do have
         trouble dealing with them on a day-to-day basis).
         
         I haven't had any real experience in this area either, but a
         little moral support always helps. :*]  Good Luck!
         
         >>AL<<
         

    I don't plan to have kids, for much the same reasons you've given.
    However, I am capable of dealing with them occasionally.  If we're
    at all similar, your chances of being a better father by seeing
    them on an occasional basis are pretty good.
    
    It's good that you're able to look ahead to both the problems and
    the benefits of separation.  Realistic expectations help to prevent
    severe disappointments.
    
    One possible arrangement (which you might have considered already)
    is living in the same neighborhood as your family.  That way you're
    close enough to get involved occasionally, but you're not in the
    middle of things.

    The first step to solving a problem is recognizing that there is
    one.  You got that far.  Family counselling works, sometimes it
    works pretty fast, sometimes it drags out.  Admitting that counselling
    is needed is a sign of maturity and, believe it or not, mental health.
    Everybody has scars from their childhood.  Some are worse than others.
     If yours are causing a problem, try to heal yourself (seek
    counselling) and see what happens before drawing a worst-case-scenario.
    If you need a little space...that works.  Being alone is nothing
    to fear, either.  'Some of my best friends are weekend parents!'
    
    I admire you for your insight...for exploring the possibilities...for
    knowing how much you have invested in your marriage and family...for
    knowing that you need professional help and are seeking it.
    Personally, I would do the professional help first and then decide
    on the rest.
    

    re just the living alone part... there is another fairly current
    note on this in this file that you might want to reread.  My two
    cents -- like you I had not known what it was like to come home to
    an empty house for over 18 years.  What I found out is that I didn't
    die of loneliness... and, in time came to like it.  I have a roommate
    now for economic reasons, but since I am away 3 weeks out of 4 on
    a special project, during that time I come home to an empty place.
    It has it's virtues... chief among them is that I can chose when
    I want to be with people and when I just want to be with myself.
    It is both freeing and confronting... confronting because it always
    presents the choice.
    
    I know one thing as a result... that I never again want to be in
    a relationship that is more a habit than a choice... which is what
    my wife and I had let our marriage become.
    
    You have courage to face the truth so squarely... good luck to you.
    
    R.
    

This reply is being posted anonymously

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Talk about striking a cord...  this note you wrote sounds like part of
my life story.  I too am in the middle of a trying time and am going to be
separated "Starting next weekend" after 11 years of marriage.  I have 2 great
kids and can't deal with the day to day sh*t with them although I love my
kids with all my heart.  My wife and I just can't get along no matter what
we do and we have both gone to counseling.  There are times when I hate
living with my wife so much that I just take off and not come home for the
night or at least 8 to 10 hrs when I cool of a little.

You mentioned about your family and I know how that feels coming from a 
strange and broken family myself.  My wife though came from a "Traditional"
family and has no idea what trouble is... "Until Now"

Don't be ashamed as to how you feel about it because from what I have been
told it's probably in our past and we just haven't found it yet.  If you care
to talk to someone who is going through the same stuff you are feel free to
send me mail directly as I know how you feel and I feel better just knowing
someone else like me is out there... 

No name...  "yet"

                   
    	Wow. I can feel your sense of frustration and anguish. Personally,
    I think there's plenty of hope for you to have a healthy relationship
    with your children. After all, they will always be yours. You might
    just have to go "through the mountain" to get there, but from what
    I hear, it's worth it!
    
    	I believe we tend to model the behavior of our parents with
    deadly accuracy and are unaware at times that we are doing so. If
    you *know* that your parent's - either of them - had the so called
    "dysfunctional" character traits, it is highly likely that you carry
    some of them in you. They map right on over like genetic information
    does, IMHO. Different process, same carbon copying...
    
    	In order to effect what has been, shall we say "learned" into
    you (the short fuse, the verbal abusiveness) it has been recently
    discovered that one must confront it directly. This is a difficult
    process, because of the defensive layers which have been built over
    time between the pain of this original "learning" and your
    accessability of it. 
    
    	"Short fuse" is a characteristic of emotion blasting up through 
    these layers, much like a geyser. This emotion is usually that of your 
    unresolved past learnings, and can go right back to the dawn of your 
    consciousness. The very first things you can remember.
    
    	But even the most buried emotions can be resolved, in theory.
    It's just a lot of work, in the dissapative sense, you're going
    to be really "going through it" for a while. For some people, this
    is too much, and they'd prefer to leave it all buried and live with
    their subsequent "handicap", often as an addict of some kind, until
    death.
    
    	I am only this harsh because this was the final road of my own
    mother, who, as far as I'm concerned, died as a indirect result
    of "family dysfunctionality" in her reality's "family". I also like
    to believe that she did not have the choice of "going through it"
    (Going through what?) that we perhaps do today - because the
    information that is available today on this disease was not, just
    10 years ago.
    
    	Go get a copy of "Bradshaw On: The Family" and read it cover
    to cover. You'll find that your current problems are manefestations
    of a bigger single problem (which you know of) and has a solution!
    
    	Best of luck to you.
    
    	Joe Jas

    

	...Copied with permission from another Conference - Hope this helps.

				*	*	*

    "There is a concept that I have been reading about, that is new to
    me, and I think perhaps this is an appropriate place to share it.
    When we relive the pain of our childhood, we need to be validated.
    We were betrayed, in a sense by our parents, who were not emotionally
    available for us, and did not validate our feelings.   But, beyond
    that, there is a second betrayal.  We are going on, doing to ourselves
    just what our parents did, we are not validating our feelings, we
    are not comforting the child within.  We must strive to change our
    relationship with ourselves. This was an eye-opener for me.  This
    author was saying, that some folks get stuck  at the first betrayal,
    caught up in the raging feelings, and get stuck going up against
    the past, which cannot be changed.  When we move on to the realization
    that we are doing the same thing to ourselves, then we can move
    on in recovery, and this is something we CAN change!  To me , thats
    an exciting concept.
    
    I hope it made sense.  Wish I had the book in front of me.  I think
    the title is "Healing, the Road to Recovery"  The author's first
    name is Timmens  Anybody have a better memory than me?
    
    The feelings you are experiencing are overwhelming.  Each individual
    has his/her own pace of recovery.  Maybe you need more time to feel
    these things that have been long buried."
    

    Hi--
    
    First of all, my prayers and hopes are with you and your family
    at this time.
    
    Do see a counsellor.  Remember, it's the truly courageous who seek
    out help!  When you do this, TELL your wife and kids that you are
    doing it, and why.  They already know what you do--that you are
    having a problem dealing with them and there are problems within
    your family that everybody owns.  But by letting them in on the
    fact that you are willing to work on it, you give them (and you)
    hope.  
    
    It's never too late to start, and the help that comes happens much
    sooner than you think.  I was in counselling for 10 years, and what
    I learned about myself was invaluable.  What will happen is that
    you will eventually learn how to "counsell" yourself, and you will
    be much better able to head trouble off at the pass.
    
    Let your family in on it.  They will respect you for doing this,
    and it might make them look a bit deeper into themselves for ideas
    on how they might be able to help the family situation.  
    
    Families are definitely worth the effort and the work.  No one person
    in a family owns that family's total problems, successes, sorrows,
    and joys.  By your example, you will encourage each member in some
    way to pull their emotional weight.
    
    Good luck to you, and please remember that you are not alone.  Please
    let us know how things are working out for you.  We are here to
    support when we can!
    
    Jane

This reply is from the author of 769
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	re.7
		I can no longer keep these emotions buried,my past 
		experience has been to shove it all way back into
		the recesses of my mind and deal with it by not dealing
		with it.I lived day to day ignoring my behaviour with
		my kids,ignoring the heated arguments with my wife,the hate
		that built up between us as a result.
		In the last few months I can't do this anymore,I don't 
		like what I see in myself and I have to rectify it.It has
		already destroyed our relationship,I can't let it destroy
		me as well.

An anonymous reply to 769
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                                 *****


To the anonymous author of .0:

You are not alone.  Others have traveled the same path you're facing 
and have survived, even thrived, in spite of the pain.

My story is much like yours, except I'm eight years further along the 
route.  Like you my temper and short fuse were causing a rift between 
my children and myself.  My husband added fuel to the flames by 
discounting my needs and my problems and by his insistance that the 
problem was solely mine and not a family affair.  He and I tried 
marriage counseling for a time, but when the counselor advised me that 
my husband was not sufficiently convinced of my needs to make a 
change, I moved out of the family home.  At the time my pain was such 
(I felt like I was a total failure in both roles I'd been reared to 
assume -- wife and mother) that I fully expected to commit suicide by 
the end of the first year.  I didn't, and will be forever thankful to 
the powers and people that showed me the beauty and value in life.

(I won't go into detail here about the separation and divorce 
arrangements because the marriage was no longer my priority; my 
children were.  If you want to contact me either by mail or by phone 
for more information, please contact the moderator who posted this 
reply.)

I took an apartment within walking distance of the house, so my 
children (both elementary school age at the time) could visit me 
easily and frequently.  Although there was a rough period of 
adjustment for all of us, our relationship was on a much better basis 
within six months.  I was seeing the children four times a week and 
remained actively involved in their lives.  I've worked hard at 
getting my priorities in order so that the little nits of life no 
longer irritate me, and I save my emotional energies for the important 
things.  I'm not all the way there yet, but I've come a long way 
toward controlling my outbursts by funneling that energy into more 
productive channels.

Eight years ago, in the midst of the turmoil, I couldn't even see the 
tunnel, much less the light at the end.  Today I can honestly say that 
my children and I have a close and mutually rewarding relationship.  
My daughter has honored me several times over the years by writing 
school essays featuring me as "the person she most admires."  She has 
done extremely well in school and will be graduated from high school 
this year at the head of her class.  My son is having some problems 
with relationships and with school, but at this point I wouldn't say 
they're any worse than average for an adolescent male who's testing 
the waters of the adult world.  There's a good chance he will be 
coming to live with me this Fall.

I have every reason to believe that we've all come through what could 
have been a horrendous period in great shape and are well on our way 
to building productive and rewarding lives.  It's taken work on all of 
our parts (and support from a lot of friends), but we felt the end 
results would be worth it.  And they are!

You, too, can turn this painful experience into a positive force in 
your life.  I'm not promising that life will be the "happily ever 
after," nuclear family all together image that is still held up by our 
society as the ideal.  But I found alternatives that worked even 
better for us.  You can, too.

Good luck.  And let us know how you're all doing.

    Note 7 & 9 offer very sound advice ....
    
    The impact growing up in a dysfunctional family is tremendous
    and the scary part is you don't necessarily realize it....for awile
    until things start getting all screwed up.
    
    We do adopt the behavior patterns of our parents which in a
    dysfunctional family are less than appropriate forms of behavior.
    
    As adults we follow those patterns because we don't know what normal
    really is.....we never saw it as children......and probably wouldn't
    recognize it now.
    
    I'd suggest you contact DEC's EAP office for referrals.
    
    Much of what you relate is similiar to Adult Children of Alcoholics
    dysfunctionality and perhaps counseling and involvement in their
    programs would help.  You need to address your past and they can sure
    help.  Recognizing the patterns you've adopted or default to and then
    changing them is key...but its not easy.
    
    Your experiences and feelings are more common than you realize.
    
    Drop me a line if you care to exchange "stories".
    
    good luck.
    
    
    
    

I was in a situation somewhat like yours, but for perhaps different reasons. I
married a woman who changed dramatically once we were married, and gave me two
children whom I did not want.  You, perhaps did not want to be a father as I
did, and you have problems from your childhood surfacing with your children now.

The most important thing to do is realize where your problems are coming
from.  It's hard because the root of the problem is hard to face.  It is
important to not place the blame were is doesn't belong.  

IE, it was important for me to realize that my children were not to blame, and
that I didn't *need* to meet other people's expectations as a parent.  All that
would do is dump a pile of sh!t on me that I didn't need, and my children didn't
necessarily need and drive me crazy which would not be helpfull to me or my
children.  It was important for me to make a committment to be the best father
possible to my children by my own standards not by any one else's standards. It
was also important to place my own needs as a priority, and be able to say 'no'
when I've reached my limit.

Perhaps you didn't want to have children.  If so, you probably have quite a bit
of resentment about that, but the children do not deserve to be the target of
that resentment. 

I found that the more I was involved with my children, the easier it became. My
childhood was not the best, and I find that I am often able to get what I missed
from my own childhood, with my children.  It was very healing. 

Jim.

    I don't know that this is going to help, but I do want to tell you
    that your situation--in basic form--is common enough that you have
    much company.
    
    Both my husband and I came from dysfunctional homes.  His had a
    stability and a sameness with love.  However, it was riddled
    with prejudice, anger and Germanic control.  Mine was pillar-to-post,
    abandonment at periods, and the only stability and love came from
    my paternal grandmother.  But that seems to have been enough to
    have broken the worst of the cycle.
    
    During our long marriage, we each found ourselves struggling to
    deal with the garbage we brought into the union.  And looking back,
    I think it is a *bloody miracle* that my children still speak to
    me, much less seem to love me dearly as they did their father.
    
    As another noter said, do just keep letting the children know that
    you love them, and that whatever happens you will still be a large
    part of their lives.  And if you follow through with that, and get
    the counselling you apparently want, I think in the long run it
    will come out okay.
    
    AA has two marvelous statements I subscribe to with all my heart. 
    I offer it to you as a suggestion: "One Day at a Time" and "Easy
    Does It".  

    May He hold you ever in His hand...M

    As many in this note have already wished you the best.  All I can
    do is wish you the same.  
    
    If you want anything bad enough, well, I would say its worth working
    to have.
    
    Wishing you and your family the best.
    
    HC

    "LOVE IS NOT REALLY LOVE UNTIL YOU GIVE IT AWAY"  If we depply think
    about that sentence...we are very selfish with love, we seldom give
    but want to take.  I've read all the positive remarks, advises given
    by noters and that is great, but we DO need to think, do we really
    give anything? I was brought up in a very strict family, so I was
    also strict, I like things neat, (hate clutter) and like to have
    a clean house with a clean sink at all times, etc.  THAT proved
    to be an impossible dream with three teen agers around.  I do love
    my kids dearly (no pride or shame, but I could die for all and each
    one of them) so I became a bit bitchy, always going after them and
    correcting them... I was going bananas and gaining nothing, so I
    put myself in their shoes and thought...what could I do if I had
    a mother nagging me all the time? I always had had a wonderful family
    where there were no tv after dinner, that was reserved for daily
    exchange of feelings, or happenings etc. and where my Dad had a
    great respect for Mother and never ever shouted or got mad at her
    in OUR PRESENCE.  For me, that was the perfect marriage and the
    perfect family.  Now, was I doing the right thing to have what my
    parents had? NO! I nagged and critisized the kids because they were
    messy... The best thing I did was to change and accept kids like
    they are, KIDS, learning to become adults but not there yet and they
    do learn from us....
    Now the older two graduated from college ,(suma cum laude), the
    youngest, at 16, is the greatest boy there is and I am the proudst
    mother you can ever meet.  It has not been easy, everybody has its
    problems, but now, after 25 years of marriage I feel I achieved
    something.
    KIDS can be difficult, but a family is something very serious and
    very wonderful to be taken lightly.  It is a drive for self-improvement
    and a reason to keep on going in life.  You are, at this time, in
    one of those difficult periods of everyday' daily life.  It is not
    over, it is hard, but not over. Have a good talk with your children,
    let them see you like a good human being, not just the stereotyped
    strong male that men are supposed to be... you'd be surprized how
    much a child perceives, how smart a child is, and how easily hurt
    a child can be.  THEY are the future of our society, it is our duty
    to make the best we can to bring them up right.  Please, have patience,
    show love, understanding...you will also receive it... Best luck.
   

    I tend to believe the authors "problems" are primarily within himself and
    attention needs to be foccussed their first.  Coming from a
    dysfunctional family that person can't relate to your lifestyle,
    doesn't know what normal is, doesn't have good examples to compare
    against, doesn't know how to resolve problems, doesn't know what a
    good marriage is like, how love should be shown, or even how to communicate
    their true feelings.  They may not even know why they feel that way 
    and just that it hurts.  
    
    I'm not trying to discount your advice or experience - I'm just
    suggesting that its a difficult problem to relate to and more difficult
    to advise, and most difficult to be in the middle of.
    
    

    I feel the same as Chelsea. I have many and varied reasons for not
    having kids (or actually, being less and less inclined towards it
    as I get older), but one of them is simply that I'm not sure I
    could handle them. I *like* kids (I was a YMCA camp counsellor for
    5-6 year olds and had a lot of fun, and I also had a hand in raising
    my nephews), but there are times when I get so annoyed at trivial
    things they do, that I'm sure that if I had to deal with them on
    a constant basis, I'd blow my top.
    
    Of course, it's easy for me to avoid the problem, being single and
    not having had kids, while you're trying to back out gracefully.
    I'm not sure what I can say to help, other than I sympathize.
    
    --- jerry