Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Joyce,
    
    I think any two people can have any kind of relationship that
    is mutually agreeable. Why not talk to your friend about the
    fact that your interest in him is platonic? If you don't know
    him very well, he has no reason to assume that your feelings
    are not platonic, and you could tell him as soon as you know
    him a little better.
    
    Eileen
     

    re: .0

>    And then we have the problem of establishing a platonic relationship
>    with someone where there is no impediment to a romantic relationship.
>    Do we just go up and say "HI, I would like to have a platonic
>    friendship with you!"

    Sounds like a good idea to me!  I've never been very successful
    at figuring out what someone is thinking unless they tell me
    directly, so I appreciate it when they let me off the hook early.
    Of course, I also realize this theory looks better on phosphorus
    than it works in practice.  Sigh...

    That's basically what I do.  I make it clear to a male friend if I only
    want the relationship to be platonic.  I have a lot of friends who just
    happen to be male.  Some of them are very close friends.  I have never
    had a relationship and I don't ever want to.  Not because of them, but
    because it would ruin the relationship that have.  
    
    Joyce, be up front and honest with him.  Tell him that you would love
    to go out for a walk some time, but explain that it is only as a
    friendship.  You don't expect (or want) anything more than a
    friendship.
    
    Holly

    	One of the keynotes of friendship is honesty - therefore, when
    dealing with a friendship, let the intention be known and agred
  upon right at the outset.
    
    	Some times there is no choice, thus no problem -i.e. electronic
    friendship with one who lives humndreds of miles away, has little
    risk of becoming anything other than platonic.
    
    	When there is a choice, it is important that both parties know
    and
    agree on the platonic status.
    
    	Guy B.
    

RE: .4 

>    ...						 I have never
>    had a relationship and I don't ever want to.  Not because of them, but

    	Uh, Holly, you didn't *really* mean what you wrote, did you??
    (I think you forgot the "with them"?? ) :-) :-)

    	I have to agree with previous replies...talk to him.  I've
    asked a male friend to go out, and mentioned it would be "as 
    friends", and I've had the same done to me.  Actually, it makes 
    things easier, because then you know exactly where things stand, 
    you don't have to worry what the other person expects, etc.  You 
    can just go out and have fun (or stay in, whatever).

    	As in all kinds of relationships, it seems, communication is
    the key.

    	Amy

	I generally agree with the trend so far - I think it's important
	that you let him know that you want things to be "just" platonic
	*before* any misunderstandings occur.  Why take the risk of losing
	a good friend over a misunderstanding?  As far as telling him, I'm sure
	there are as many approaches as there are people.  Just be honest
	and calm about it, and things will be fine.

	What's the good of having a friend if you're uncomfortable when
	you're around them?


	>>AL<<

RE:          <<< Note 756.6 by LDYBUG::GOLDMAN "He who laughs, lasts" >>>

>	Actually, it makes
>    things easier, because then you know exactly where things stand, 
>    you don't have to worry what the other person expects, etc.  You 
>    can just go out and have fun (or stay in, whatever).

	I have to agree strongly with what you've said. Romantic
	relationships are exciting and challenging and friendships
	are comfortable (but can be fun to). It's much easier to
	relax and be yourself with friends. I've had
	some relationships start out to be potentially romantic
	and they've turned into great friendships. Women have great
	insights into relationships with other women and are can be
	more comfortable than men talking about certain things.

Chuck

    
    This may be the cowards way out...I sometimes can't SAY face to
    face to someone what I feel.   In that case I by a card.  I hae
    seen several...."I like you as a friend" or "it's nice having a
    friend of the opposite sex".  Works for me!
    
    Linda

    	Joyce:


    	*Always* be honest -- without honesty, you can't have trust.  And
    without trust, you don't have much of anything.  I'd say something
    like:  "Say, would you be interested in <whatever>.  I have to be up
    front with you however, and let you know that I'm only interested in
    doing so as friends."  You'd be surprised -- people generally aren't as
    put out as you might think.  Certainly, *I'm* not.


    	Communication *is* key, no matter who you're dealing with.  What I
    can't figure out is if it's so well known, why doesn't it take place
    more often?  I guess the implementation is harder than the theory.


    	I'd go talk to him!  You'd be no worse off, right?


    Brian

    Uh, oops!  Sorry about that.  I meant to say that WE have never had a
    relationship, and I would never want to.  
    
    Holly
    

    But then again.. there was this time I asked a guy in our building
    if he'd like to have lunch while we were both working in the building
    on a Saturday, and he jumped down my throat telling me he already had 1.5
    girlfriends...
    
    Geez...  I only wanted lunch, not to marry him...
    
        
    But back on the topic, I've had to clearly state up front that I
    only wanted to be friends...  
    
    I think the hardest thing I've found is how to be friends after
    you've been more than friends...  that's still a realm I'm trying
    to define.... 

    
    
    Thanks for writing this note, Joyce.  I've been pondering over
    something similar for about a week and could use some advice.  So, if I
    may... 
    
    Here's the scenario:  High school girl has crush on high school boy. 
    Looking back girl sees what a fool she made of herself.  Twelve years
    go by and she runs into a friend of the person (electronically) she had 
    the crush on.  The friend doesn't recongnize her name because it's a
    married name.
    
    Here's my question:  With intentions only being to strike up a friendly
    conversation such as "Gee, haven't seen you since school.  What have
    you been up to?", how would you do it?  Keeping in mind that for this
    person to recognize you, you would have to jog the memory of something 
    you really would like forgotten.
    
    Suggestions???
    
    - Beckie

    When I meet someone I like, and I'm not interested in a relationship,
    I will mention, at some point, casually if possible, that fact.
    In ways like, "It's really nice to have a friendship without any
    pressure for anything more."  or "I'm still hurting from my last
    breakup...(etc, explanation)...it's so nice to just be friends with
    people."  Sometimes, if someone doesn't realize they are making
    me uncomfortable with something, I'll indicate that I feel that
    action goes with a relationship, which I'm not looking for.  It
    feels really nice if someone double-checks that you're not looking
    for a relationship, and it's really really hard for me to put myself
    first, but I feel genuinely glad when I can say, "No, I still don't want
    a relationship, but you're really special and I really like you
    a lot, friend."
    
    Then again, sometimes either you or the other person still want more
    than friendship, and it just won't work to keep the friendship because
    there's too much tension, and your perceptions and reactions are tainted
    by memories/feelings/comparisons from the past....and then you have to
    decide whether to keep it up or let it slide back into
    acquaintanceship. 
    
    It's very difficult.  Made more difficult by the fact that people
    have different definitions for "friend" activities and "relationship"
    activities.....clarification may be embarassing, but communication
    is VERY key (I'll echo what others have put forth) to maintaining
    a friendship that is comfortable for all...
    
    -Jody
    

    My best and closest friends are women.
    
    There were never any expressed rules of friendship and we never
    drew boundaries on our expressions of friendship.  They developed
    as naturally and as effortlessly as the any friendship I ever had
    with a man.
    
    Since I can hug, kiss, hold hands with, and walk arm in arm with my
    female friends, they are more important to my sense of well being than
    any male friend I have ever known.  I can expose weaknesses to them,
    divulge my fears to them, and be more human with them than societal
    rules will permit in the presence of other men. 
    
    Somewhere along the way the question of our relationships degrading
    into anything less than platonic ones became unthinkable. 
    
    I don't think I could have developed or maintained these friendships
    if anywhere along the way either one of us had to say, "This close,
    but no closer."
    
    Kris

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I've been reading this notes conference for several months, but this is
the first time I'd made an entry.  I'd like to respond to the base note
about platonic friendships by stating my own experience.  It's somewhat
lengthy, but hopefully, it'll be an appropriate response.  

I've had a male friend for the past nine years.  I met him here at DEC
and have worked with him for most of those nine years.  We did spend much
time together (outside of work) and I always thought of him as only a
good friend. During that time, he experienced many tough times in his
life.  He went through several operations (one was extremely major where
he could have been left paralyzed) and also his girlfriend would leave
him whenever he had medical problems (which hurt him very much).  

At those times when he was extremely depressed, I WAS the one who was
ALWAYS there for him and would take the time to tell him and convince him
that, even though he was extremely depressed and hurting very much
emotionally, there was reasons for him to live, that he was a good person
and that there was  someone who truly did care about him.  Well, in the
process of trying to convince him,  I ended up convincing myself about
him and obviously, I fell in love with him.  We always thought of
ourselves as "just friends".  However, I felt as if, at times, his words
and actions indicated that he thought more of me than just a friend.  And
I also thought that he might realize one day that there was ONE person
who was ALWAYS there for him, during both good and bad times, and that
person was me.  But, in fact, he never did come to see that cause he is
now back with the same girlfriend who has continued to hurt him very
badly.  I still think that he just didn't know what to do with me cause
he was NOT used to having someone who was good, honest, trusting and
faithful to him.

I never wanted or wished this to happen, but it did.  At this point, we
have trouble in being just friends.  I cannot continue to stand by
him and give him support when he continues to be hurt by her, cause in
the past, it just tore my heart to see him hurt so much emotionally.  I
cannot continue to have him accept all the emotional support and love
from me and continue to try to work out a relationship with her.  

What I'm trying to point out by entering this response is to just be
careful with your male friendships.  During those nine years, all I ever
tried to do was be a good friend for someone I cared about and what ended
up happening was that I lost a good friend, my best friend and also the
only man I have ever loved in my life.  I do feel somewhat bad that I
cannot continue to be a friend, however, I can't continue to give him so
much love and when he feels good about himself, he literally avoids me
and tries working out another relationship with her -- I had to step out
of the "cycle" we were in.  I have feelings too and need that love
returned also.  Perhaps that's why there's the old saying, "I've loved
you too much to ever just be a friend."

I do wish that your friendships are a lot more pleasant than mine turned
out to be.  Yes, perhaps being open and honest with your friend might
make things easier, however, a couple of times in the past, my friend
said to me "I love you" (and used those exact words), now he says, "I
only loved you as a friend"!  You're right .14, people do have different
definitions of friendship activities vs.  relationship activities and
that's definitely what we experienced.

I know this was quite long, but thanks for letting me share my experience
with you - I hope that never happens to anyone!

RE: .15

Kris... why do I always agree with your notes a lot, but disagree with your
ending? :-)

I too prefer not to "define" my relationships, and would rather just let them be
what they are.  It is always nice to know what people need/want out of a
relationship and what they cannot/willnot give/put up with, but that can be done
sensibly without being brutal. 

I like it when relationships do develop naturally, and grow.  If it comes to a
point where one person has to say "NO", then you've obviously gone too far.  I
would like to think I would know before the other person well enough beforehand
to know whether they will like or dislike something.  

But perhaps I'm expecting too much?  Perhaps I'm expecting to be able to read
their mind?  Maybe... Sometimes things need to be spelled out.  But I am
very definitely against defining what my relationship with someone is going
to be before I get to know them.

I like women friends for many of the same reasons Kris does..., yet... there
are sometimes that I can't be open when I might like to.  Because I don't
know how it would be taken, and I wouldn't want to impose.... 

RE: -.1

Have you ever stopped to consider that by you helping him, you are helping him
stay with her in what should be obviously a bad situation by now.  I've been
there.  You may have to stop supporting this. 

Jim.

    .16
    
    You did a wonderful and caring thing... and I can't help but think
    that you did know what you might be walking into.  It's too bad
    that it ends up hurting so bad that you can't still love freely.
    
    This stuff isn't very easy, and for some of us it is harder than
    for others, but I've been coming to some realizations that I think
    apply.  1) That you can never make someone love you, 2) that love
    in expectation of a return of a certain kind probably doesn't work,
    3) that you need to be clear about where you are and to communicate
    that -- secret unrequited love is a bummer, and 4) that you can
    have feelings (loving someone or being attracted to them), you can
    talk about those feelings or not, and you can act on those feelings
    or not... that you have choices at each step along the way.
    
    For me to feel that "I love you" and that "I want something more
    from this relationship" doesn't mean anymore than that... there's
    no requirement for you to respond or for me to do any particular
    thing... and if you don't, then you don't and it doesn't mean my
    feelings are wrong.  Sometimes it hurts or gets uncomfortable, but
    I guess I'd rather end up keeping a caring friend than dump it because
    she doesn't feel the same way about me that I do about her.  
    
    Now, being human, I don't always handle this as well as I'd like...
    but I do try to keep working it that way.
    
    Bottom line -- I find it a lot easier to deal with someone who is
    clear with me about where they are and what they are feeling, even
    if it is not what I might want, than to have this all under the
    table and not talked about straightly.  
    
    My opinion... FWIIW...
    
    R.
    

    re .16
    
    I admire you for being there for 9 years for someone who was "just
    a friend" for most of that time.  I agree that you've probably done
    the right thing by ceasing to support him in this (apparently) hopeless
    relationship with his girlfriend.  You need to realize that you
    can't make someone love you, he may have issues of his own where
    he doesn't want a good relationship.  It's too bad that you can't
    just be there, get what's available in your friendship, and develop
    other friends and SOs to fill in your other needs.
    
    I think the main mistake here was forming an expectation that he
    would leave his girlfriend for the person who was always there for
    him.  By setting up expectations, you're setting up for a fall.
    It's much better to give what you're comfortable giving, accept
    what comes back, but don't expect any particular outcome.
    
    Take Care,
    Elizabeth

    How to have a platonic friendship?  Just do.  It may not stay that
    way -- in life there are no guarantees.  Know your limits and be
    honest about them.
    
    I have a little bit of trouble with the 'have it all out in the open up
    front', though. I have never wanted to start _any_ personal
    relationship by setting down the terms and conditions, let alone a
    friendship.  It all seems so contractual somehow. 
    
    I know what I want from relationships/friendships and I know my
    limits.  I give people the benefit and respect of expecting that
    they will too.  We don't always have matching needs, and if the
    relationship isn't moving where we want it to be [together or
    separately] then choices arise.
    
    There's an ebb and flow to relationships as there is to human needs.
    Limits shift.
    
    I have and have had many friendships that I would characterise
    as 'intimate' -- only two have involved sex.  When the relationship
    ebbed away from this physical intimacy, one friendship didn't 'mend,'
    the other did.
    
    '_just_ a friend?'  no.
    
    Friends are too special,
    
       Ann

    	When starting a relationship, if there is some absolute limit
    you want to adhere to, it is best to make it known, and obtain
    agreement at the very outset.
    
    	As a married person, should I pursue a friendship with a woman,
    it would be far better to waive the friendship because of a conflict
    of interest than to start a friendship, allow feelings to develop,
    and then have to be in a position where someone has to say NO.
    
    	Yes - there is a need for spontaneity in developing human
    relationships, but there is also room for honest discussion before
    it's too late. I don't think clearing the air up front will stifle
    the relationship to follow.
    
    	Just a humble opinion from one who thinks honesty is paramount
    in human relationships.
    
    	Guy B.
    

    I don't think that developing/maintaining a platonic relationship
    is as easy as just saying the words. I make it very clear to my
    male friends that I am happily involved with someone and that our
    relationship is none other than platonic. Yet, I feel a need 
    to keep a certain distance with these platonic friends because to many 
    of these friendships disolved because someone wasn't listening to 
    the "just platonic friends" part. 
    
    Gail

    re.21
    
    As a married person myself, I concur.  Honesty is indeed best. Perhaps
    my approach to friendship is different.
    
    While I'm not renowned for being self-effacing, I just never had enough
    ego to presume that a man would want to be 'more than friends' without
    even knowing if he liked me as a person.  [Note: casual encounters
    would, for me, fall into a separate category not being discussed here] 
    
    The friendships I pursue now begin no differently than before I
    married.  I know my limits. Others know theirs.  And they become
    apparent fairly early on. 
    
    If a friend questions my motives in spending time with him, I will tell
    him why I do -- more often than not followed by some query as to his.
    Sanity checking as it were, checking for alignment. When there is a
    conflict, it's either compromise or choose.
    
      Ann
 

	 Kris (.15) could have written this reply for me, simply
	 substituting "men" for "women".

	 
	 My closest, most intimate friends have always been men.

         When a true male-female friendship develops I don't think
         I've ever had to "draw the line".  It's natural, it's
         wonderful, it's effortless....it just happens. 

         With men I don't feel the competition that exists when I'm 
         are friends with women.  I find that the most appealing thing
         in a male-female friendship.  With women, there is almost
         always the sub-concious competition, be it for men, for
         grades (in college), for status, for whatever....it's there
	 and I don't like being a part of that.

         I can laugh with, hug, hold and kiss my male friends without
         worrying that they will begin to feel something for me.  It's
         unwritten....it's understood.  To the naked eye, many people
         do see my male friendships as being more than platonic, but
         they're not.  I believe true male-female friends can share
         everything...the expression of love being included in that
         list.  People may see them this way because they just don't
         understand that level of sharing, of caring. 

         I feel I understand men more than I ever could have if my
         friends were female.  They understand women thru me. My male
         friends know that if they need an ear to bend for a woman's
         point of view, they know they can come to me...they know
         it'll never go further (with women I've found this RARELY to
         be true).  If I need a man's point of view, I know where to
         go.  It's honest, it's sincere. 

         My friendships with men evolve into more genuine, more open.
         more loving friendships than I've ever had with a woman.
         They are natural...I'll never give up that 'naturalness' by
         trying to 'draw a line'..........the line has always come
         effortlessly and I will never give that naturalness of it up. 


	 kath
	 

    Replying to .17
    
    It's okay, Jim.  I never agree with anybody on anything.  Narcistic
    to the max.
    
    
    There's something that everyone might want to ask themselves regarding
    this platonic/sexual/romantic relationship topic:
    
    What is the motivation for a friendship?
    
    
    The following are not, in my mind, motivations for friendship:
    
    	- A hopeful sexual encounter.
    	- A hopeful mate.
    	- Awaiting the breakdown of a present relationship.
    
    
    The scenario, as I put it together, in 756.16 is as follows:
    
    X waits around as a "friend" for Y to dump Z (or vice versa).  When
    this happens X moves in on an emotional comando raid expecting payoff
    from Y for being such a good "friend".  X is hurt because Y says,
    "Hell NO".
    
    That scenario, to me, borders on an insult and I would thank you not
    to use the term "friendship" when describing it.
                                               

RE: .25
	     
>    What is the motivation for a friendship?

	 Giving, sharing, loving
	 Support
	 Sharing innermost thoughts/secrets
	 Companionship

	 I believe my list of desires for a friendship is almost
	 identical to my list of motivation for a romantic partner.
	 Or at least a large subset thereof.  It may be a different
	 kind of love, a different kind of sharing...but the basic
	 rules are the same.

	 Companionship perhaps being the lowest on the list for a
	 reason.  Many of my male friends I don't see or talk to for
	 months/years at a time....but we'll always be there for each
	 other.

******************

         While we're speaking on the topic of male-female
         friendships...there is something that has been bugging me for
         a LONG time.  I quite frequently get asked "so did the
         romance of the century happen?" when I come back from a trip
         back east to visit friends.  (This bothers me to no end!)
         *WHY* does society today put such emphasis on the fact that
         there MUST be romance between a man and a woman? 

	 Let's not just discuss how to define the line, but WHY the
	 line is there!
                                               

	 kath

    re: the anonymous noter # 16...
    
    This relationship triangle sounds unhealthy for not only the noter,
    but for everyone involved in it; I wonder about the noter's need
    to stay in a relationship where her own needs are clearly not being
    met. This seems to be the issue, not whether or not the relationship
    is platonic or not.
    
    Dear Anonymous,
    I don't know whether you have heard about co-dependent relationships
    but there are some excellent books on the subject. Many women I
    know have been helped by the book "Women Who Love Too Much" although
    co-dependent issues are certainly not experienced by women alone.
    Another such book is "Codepedent No More" by Melodie Beattie.
    Check this stuff out. I think you will find it helpful.
    
    -roger
    
    
     

        
    Kathy,
        
    You asked why is there such an emphasis on romance.....perhaps because
    it is only recently that people have more freedom to have platonic 
    relationships with members of the opposite sex.  In the past, the  
    emphasis was for people (especially women) to marry and therefore, 
    platonic relationships were not considered important/necessary.
    Old habits are hard to break.                                
                                                                 
    I am sorry that you feel "bugged" by people's curiosity....I have
    to admit that I've been guilty of such crimes - wondering about
    friends.  I tend to be a curious individual - I have found that
    it is better to keep it to yourself and wait until the friend tells
    you personally.  You may want to keep in mind, that people do mean
    well and wish you only the best.                                           
                                    
        
    As ever,
        
    Kris
               
    

<         While we're speaking on the topic of male-female
<         friendships...there is something that has been bugging me for
<         a LONG time.  I quite frequently get asked "so did the
<         romance of the century happen?" when I come back from a trip
<         back east to visit friends.  (This bothers me to no end!)
<         *WHY* does society today put such emphasis on the fact that
<         there MUST be romance between a man and a woman? 

<	 Let's not just discuss how to define the line, but WHY the
<	 line is there!

      There are a lot of reasons kath. Certainly part of it is that men
      and women are attracted to each other and one of life's great
      pastimes is to find out who's seeing who and why and doing what.
      (of course *I* never indulge in idle gossip, heaven forbid! ;*})

      Back to your question, the line is there because we can only give
      of ourselves sexually to a select number of people (I realise this
      is IMHO) and there has to be some way to differentiate those
      relationships from others. 

      We distinguish between friends on any number of criteria but sex
      is a major dividing line because of the level of intimacy it
      involves. Since the major traits I look for in both friends and
      lovers are quite similar it would seem natural to me to think that
      someone's close friends of the opposite sex (that's my
      heterosexual bias showing I'm afraid) might end up as lovers or
      loving friends even without a "great romance". Each friendship has
      it's own boundaries and limits. 

      Friendships can involve sex or not. It depends on the persons
      involved, but to me the potential is there and it seems strange to
      deny it. liesl

    Another aspect of platonic friendships is the bare fact that some
    people don't require, need or want them.  They have SO's of the
    opposite sex and friends of the same sex.
    
    That occured to me as I read through these replies.  
    
    In line with that a platonic friendship for this type of person
    could be a way of passing time until the right one came along and
    the withholding of intimacy could be a form of rejection.
    
    Another thought that I had from my own life...is it might be that
    I feel that men should be friends...they are obligated it is just
    a matter of deciding whether the friendship be platonic or intimate.
    
    So perhaps the first question to ask before any relationship is
    determined is 'is there a basis for friendship'.  
    
    

    
.30>    	By the way, everyone says that honesty is important, but how
.30>    many here believe that white lies are Ok?  And why?
    

    I don't know WHAT I think.. sometimes I think to protect someone,
    they are okay...  (ie.. me telling my girls I'm at a lounge with
    a bunch of people... where there are a BUNCH of people in the lounge,
    but I'm only with a certain "one" of them)... if it is to protect
    one's heart at an age that needs protecting.
    
    If it also means hurting one, versus not hurting in a situation
    that really doesn't matter...  (ie:  That dress is lovely on you,
    while you are thinking that dress make you look like a tent)...
    if it makes another feel good about themselves, and it had no relevant
    value later on.
    
    To protect a loved one in a given situation (ie:  when men were
    at war, telling them the kids were all right, when indeed one was
    being ready for minor surgery - better to not tell them the truth,
    so they can focus on staying alive, and not on a sick child at home)..
    I think is also all right...
    
    Yeah, given the situation, there may be times when its okay...
    
    Gale

    
    Kath (.24)
    
    I echo your sentiments exactly.  I've always found it more difficult to
    maintain very close friendships with other women than with men.  Part
    of this, I think, is what was mentioned about competition amongst women
    regardless of what they are competing for.
    
    Men, on the other hand, don't seem to be in competition with me at any
    level.  This makes it much easier to communicate openly and enjoy time
    spent together.
    
    Anyone that knows me knows how open a person I am.  I'm that way with
    everyone for the most part, but tend to clam up more with women.
    
    
    Jerry, (.31)
    
    Thanks.
    
    
    Mike Z.,
    
    I think a person's motives for telling a little white lie has to be 
    considered before determining if it is okay or not.
    
    - Beckie

RE: friendships with the other sex

A number of people have mentioned being more comfortable with the opposite sex
because of a lack of competition.  Do you suppose it feels comfortable because
you know that (the opposite sex) *cannot* compete with you?  

How do you think this feels to your friends of the opposite sex (FOTOS? :-))  I
can remember having one friend who had lots of FOTOS, and them being
occasionally refered to as her 'harem'; which I felt was very insulting, an
insult by implying something was going on when nothing was going on.  I can't
ever *quite* feeling in comptetition with the other friends, but sometimes it
can close. 

I've also heard the theory that exclusive FOTOS, is a form of ingrained
homophobia, either either fear/hatred of homosexuality, or fear/hatred of your
own sex/yourself.  Comments? 

RE: White lies

I very seldom tell white lies for the purpose of not hurting someone's feelings.
I wouldn't say 'that's nice, dear' about a tent dress.  I'd tell the truth. I've
been called tactless for that. :-)  On the other hand, sometimes I use white
lies to protect myself, to avoid telling someone something that I don't want to
tell them.   Perhaps it would be more honest to say 'I don't want to answer
that', but that is even more tactless, and very difficult.  But I reserve the
right to open myself to people in my own time, and in my own way.  If I had my
way I wouldn't do it at all, but I find it is necessary sometimes. 

Jim.

This is the noter who entered .16

I just read .31's response and I say thank you for understanding.
Perhaps some people didn't completely understand what I was saying.  I
truly believe the "relationship" or whatever wasn't completely one-sided.
At those times, I was definitely given the impression that I was wanted,
that I was needed and that I was appreciated for all the emotional
support and love that I was giving.  Never once was I "avoided".   In
fact, a very close friend of both of ours has recently told me that he
felt bad for the way my friend was "using" me for emotional support and
love that his girlfriend was unable to give him and that he was getting
the best of both worlds.  

I know this might sound naive, but I never once thought I'd end up having
the feelings that I did.  I gave him this type of support and love
because I cared about him for the person that he is and NOT for any other
reason.  I think that out of everyone (including people who knew us) I
was the last to recognize my feelings.  I never "waited around" for his
relationship with her to end, but was just "there" when he had no one
else and it made me happy caring about him.  Hopefully no one will get
the wrong impression that I just hung around for  X and Y to break up.  I
was there because of three reasons:  1) he certainly appeared as if he
wanted me to be there 2) because he certainly sounded like it was over
between them and 3) cause I loved him for being him.  My friend spent
many hours alone with me telling me how she deceived him and hurt him
deeply, and he would tell others that I was the only one to ever give a
"hoot" about him.  So what else was I to believe?

.17 Jim, I believe your last paragraph was directed toward my response.
Yes, you are right, even though it hurts me not to be the caring person
that I am, I must stop supporting him, which I recently have.   I think
right now I'm just looking for some feedback and support about this issue
because last week, when he came to me about the emotional hurt he is
still experiencing, I told him that I could no longer help him.  Perhaps
this was wrong of me in that a friend should be there, but I can no
longer continue to see him hurt because of her -- I can't be a good
friend to him because it just hurts me too much to see him hurt!  Anyone
have any ideas how I can get to feel better about myself?

    Re: .30 White lies....
    
    I don't think twice about telling white lies....  If there is something
    that would hurt someone unnecessarily, I'd cover a little for it.
    Why not?  I'd want someone to do it for me.  Sometimes I'd rather
    not know all of the truth anyways... ;^>
    
    
    Katie
    

    In response to .31;

>    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but the inference I'm making is
>    that you think that any platonic friendship that takes on a sexual
>    aspect is the result of X just wanting to get into Y's pants.
    

    My point, Jerry, is that anyone who is involved in a friendship with
    an expectation of anything more than than the friendship is actually
    not involved in a friendship. 
    
    In my mind, there is no difference between X going through all the motions
    of friendship with Y with the expectation that a romance will develop,
    and X going through all the motions of friendship with Y with the
    expectation of receiving $12,000 for services rendered.
    
    If romance develops between friends without expectation, that's different.
    In that case expectation was not the motivation for the friendship.
    
    What if the following note were posted:
    
         I was a good friend to this lady for 6 years.  I always provided
         love and support.  She seemed to love me back.  Every time she
         and her boyfriend (who's a real jerk) got in trouble, I was there. 
         
         She and her boyfriend broke up so I went to her place and, figuring
         that the coast was clear, I tried to remove her clothes.  She rejected
         me.  After all that caring and support I put in so that I could
         be around when she was available, she rejects me.
         
    I would definitely question the use of the term friendship.
    
    Again, a friendship which is motivated by payoff, whatever form that
    payoff may take, is not a friendship, but rather a gross hypocracy
    masquerading as a friendship.
    
    As the saying goes, "The only way to have a friend is to be a friend."
    It doesn't go, "One way to get what you want from someone is to pretend
    to be their friend."
    
    Friendship is its own reward.  Those rewards are more fulfilling
    than even a romance can be.
    
    Kris
    

    
    
    	I have many friends who are male.  I work in a male
    	dominated environment so it's bound to happen.  Most
    	of them know I'm engaged to it's a lot easier.
    
    	But I do have one friend who is not in my group.  And
    	we have a mutual attraction to each other BUT we respect
    	each other and I love my fiance very much so we know that
    	the relationship will not go beyond friendship.  I feel
    	very comfortable around him.  He's very easy to talk to
    	and is always there if I need a shoulder to cry on, so
    	to speak.
    
    	One of my best friends is a man I used to date.  He is
    	a wonderful person.  But he was concentrating on his
    	career at the time and did not want a full time relationship
    	so we decided to remain friends.  He is another who is 
    	there for me.  I try to stay on good terms with "ex's"
    	so to speak.  I find it very difficult to end a relationship
    	on bad terms.  I go to great lengths to let a person know
    	that I want to be friends.  Sometimes it's difficult but
    	eventually the hurt/confused feelings cool down and we
    	are able to have a stable and lasting friendship.
    
    	When I do come across someone that appears that they want
    	more than a friendship I kind of slip in something like..
    	"well my fiance thinks...." or whatever.  That is if they
    	haven't seen the ring by then!  Most of the time it works
    	out.
    
    	Just be honest with him (echo!).  No one can have too many
    	friends!!
    
    	JJ
    

	 RE: white lies.

	 I would never lie to someone just to make them feel better.
	 I've been known to be painfully honest at times.  I don't
	 want anyone to ever lie to me, no matter how small the lie.
	 There are ways to tell the truth, in a tactful manner, so as to
	 not hurt someone.



	 Another comment I would like to add is in regards to the
	 "expecting something to develop sometime" slant.  I will
	 never say that I WON'T let a friend develop into anything
	 more.  A friendship has always been what I have tried to base
	 my romantic relationship.  There is, however, a distinct line
	 been anticipating that something will happen someday, and it
	 just happening without anticipation.

	 I am, also, very uncomfortable calling a relationship a
	 friendship when one of the parties keeps it going
	 anticipating there will someday be more.

	 i have so much more i want to say...perhaps this weekend.

	 kathy

    Mike Z. asked a great question about the telling of white lies.
    
    Reminds me of a story... (oh no)
    
    In Star Wars, Ben told Luke a white lie about his father, that Darth
    Vader had "destroyed" him, and NOT that he had actually become Vader.
    Luke asked Ben why he lied to him.  Ben said something about he
    had actually told him the truth, the the truth was ascertained by
    "one's own point of view."
    
    I can also see the need for curbing the truth to protect others.
    Kath said that there are ways to tell the truth, in a tactful manner,
    so as to not hurt someone.  I say that it the same thing as the
    "white lie."
    
    And think about this.... getting away from the person to person
    white lie....
    
    	Sometimes our government must tell us white lies, or curb the
    	curb the truth, but most folks get very upset about that!  But
    	sometimes it's best that "we" don't know the real truth.  If
    	it's OK for us, can it not be OK for the government?
    
    Good question Mike Z., and perhaps you may want to start a separate
    topic on this as it's getting several responses and worthy of its
    on note.
    
    Dwight

RE: .41 


>    In Star Wars, Ben told Luke a white lie about his father ... 

What a strange coincidence. Here I am, reading notes but also
watching Star Wars, sort of over my shoulder, and a reply about the
movie comes up... Uncanny... 

-------------

As to 'white lies', I suspect their prevalence is a function of
conventions in a particular culture, rather than a specific person's
preference. There are cultures where saying the truth outright, is
the acceptable thing to do, while 'white lies' are frowned upon. 

In such a culture, it may be acceptable to say, "I like your new
dress", even if you think it's ugly as sin. It is NOT acceptable to
say "I really liked the job you did. However, I believe we could
improve it somewhat if ...", when the only improvement is to redo
the whole bloody thing from scratch. 

In such a culture, the person hearing "You did a lousy job" is
already conditioned not to be overly hurt. The person will handle it
in a positive manner. 

In **this** culture, articulating the naked truth is not acceptable.
Believe me, I know. Don't believe all those people telling you they
prefer to hear the bare truth. They are lying... :-).

-- Ron 

>    Kath said that there are ways to tell the truth, in a tactful manner,
>    so as to not hurt someone.  I say that it the same thing as the
>    "white lie."

	 I can say, "That dress makes you look like a cow."
	 or I can say, "That dress accentuates your hips, perhaps this
	 style would minimize them."
	    

	 I've not lied....I've said something tactfully.  There's a
	 difference.  Sorry, I won't intentionally lie, no matter how
	 much the truth hurts.  If I find someone has been lying to me
	 (even little white ones), my faith and trust in them is
	 dimished.

	 kath

    
    i'm not going to attempt to give my answer(s) to the question
    in .o....
    
    cus i understand that "yo...rik...who cares what you think"
    
    however...
    i do have many platonic relationships...
    and as i grow (one way or the other) i find that i have more
    and more of them and they become easier to establish....
    
    i try to brainwash my kids into being able to establish
    and maintain platonic friendships as a natural part
    of life....
    	perhaps, when they are "mature adults", they'll be able
    to handle many types of relationships easily....
    

    
    
    Just one more thing on white lies....  Unless I actually care about
    a persons opinion, I don't really care what the heck they think
    or say...  so whether they lie to me or not, it doesn't really matter. 
    Even if I do look like a hippo in a print dress :^>
    
    
    Katie
    
    
     

    I have lots of friendships that I presume to be platonic.  Problem
    is, I'm not very good at detecting signals.  I'm usually the last
    to know that two people are 'going together,' mostly because I can't
    really distinguish between 'going together' and buddies at the social
    level.  It takes something like a physical display of affection to
    get through to me.  I act as if the friendships are platonic; there's
    a certain amount of teasing/flirting, but nothing that indicates
    that I'm interested in a closer relationship and plenty of signals
    that indicate I'm *not* interested in anything closer.  I usually
    don't feel like spending much time with any one person anyway; in
    fact, I'm cutting back on one association that's getting too intrusive
    for my comfort.  I try to avoid the connotation of being 'paired'
    with anyone on any kind of a regular basis.  The problem is that
    the other half of the pair sometimes assumes that we'll be a pair
    (platonic or not) in a variety of situations and I feel constrained
    by their expectations.  I have to either live up to those expectations
    or disappoint them, a position I don't enjoy.
    
    The reason this works (or at least, I think it works) is because
    all of the friendships have started out as friends of friends or
    part of a group that I'm part of.  We've made the connection within
    an established group, rather than as an isolated one-on-one meeting.
    In this context, the default is more decidedly a platonic relationship
    and it's actually a little presumptuous to assume that a non-platonic
    relationship is going to develop.

    There is a school-of-thought which suggests that the 'white lie'
    is used not so much to protect the other person as it is to protect
    the liar.  The reason is that if I tell a lie the other person will
    not thjink badly about me.  After much thought, I personally have
    found that this is the reason I do it.
    
    As for platonic relationships.  I believe that platonic relationships
    are the things you have while you are waiting for Ms/Mr Right. 
    One surrounds himself/herself with people who don't matter, aren't
    significant, to keep from being alone while you wait.

    
.47>    As for platonic relationships.  I believe that platonic relationships
.47>    are the things you have while you are waiting for Ms/Mr Right. 
.47>    One surrounds himself/herself with people who don't matter, aren't
.47>    significant, to keep from being alone while you wait.

         Hmmmmmm.....that's not the way I feel about it at all!

         For me, platonic relationships are important whether or not I have a
         current "Ms. Right".  My feeling is that platonic relationships are
         important in their own right, not merely a way of "biding my time"
         until someone better comes along.  
         
         In fact, it is often the complete opposite; romantic relationships
         often will come and go, while  platonic relationships tend to be much
         more stable (or at least less volatile).  As a result, they are
         usually there when one has no Ms./Mr. Right, but I don't seek them out
         for that reason.  In particular, by no means are any of my platonic
         friends insignificant to me, and they definitely *do*  matter!
         
         
         >>AL<<

	I think of friendships as dynamic and very much a matter of degree,
	measured by trust, intimacy, and caring.  My wife is my best friend,
	and that is definitely not platonic.  My other close friends are also
	friends with my wife - this makes having platonic friendships fairly
	easy, because one of the things these friends know about me is my
	strong relationship with my wife.  
	
	For example, I met one of my friends at a previous job and we 
	enjoyed each others company from the start.
	My wife met my new friend at a party later that summer, and the two
	of them talked for about 3 hours.  It was fun watching how compatible
	they were.  By this time, I had already met my friend's husband (he
	could not make the party) and we struck up a friendship.  A few weeks
	later they came for dinner.  The result of all of this is a lasting`
	four-way friendship.  Any one of the four enjoys being with any
	combination of the other three.

	My wife and I both have single friends of the opposite sex, and
	the relationships grow in the same way.  Friends are our friends
	rather than exclusively my friends or her friends - even though
	one or the other takes the initiative to get together with different
	people, it's more of a case of habit and opportunity.  Friends
	are too important not to share.

	Ron

    	About friendships -- I must agree with those who say they're
    important, because to me they *are*.  In a way, in fact, to me they are
    as important as the romantic relationship:  the romantic type is great,
    there's no denying it, but it's your *friends* who get you through this
    crazy life; you certainly can't do it alone.


    	I guess there's a tradeoff -- the longevity of friends against the
    intensity of romantic relationships.


    Brian

      I dislike the concept that friends are only there till you find a
      romantic partner. What a waste that would be if it was true. My
      friends are there whether I have a romantic interest or not.
      Besides, this sort of thinking places a large burden on the object
      of your desires. They then have to fill all your needs by
      themselves. I don't believe that's a realistic goal. liesl

    What is a "white" lie?  
    
    How does it differ from any other type of lie? 
    
    Lies are generally told to gain some type of advantage, or to avoid
    some type of conflict, or perhaps the imagined threat of conflict. 
    Trust and honesty are the hallmarks of a good relationship, and to
    me can be used as a measuring stick of that relationship's quality;
    the degree of trust and honesty involved. 
    
    At the same time, all relationships have value, even those with
    lesser degrees of trust. They all fill different functions in
    life.       
    
    -roger
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Question:
    
    Do you think it's possible to move a relationship from romantic
    to platonic - or vice versa?
    
    I.e. Is it a case of "once a lover, always a lover"?
    
    'gail
    

    re:.49
    
    I've always felt that I want to share my friends with my other
    friends. One of my friends, however, feels differently. He tends
    to keep different and separate circles of friends and consciously
    keeps them separate. He's never been able to explain why he does
    this (I'm not sure even he knows why he does it). Different squids
    for different kids.
    
    re:.53
    
    My rule of thumb, based on my experiences (your mileage may vary),
    is that if "X" and I were platonic friends who then became lovers,
    we can go back to being platonic friends if the romance fizzles.
    If we started off as lovers, we can't become "just friends" after-
    wards. I suspect that this is because in the first case, we know
    how to relate to the other as just a friend, whereas in the second
    case, we don't.
    
    --- jerry

>    Do you think it's possible to move a relationship from romantic
>    to platonic - or vice versa?


	 I can only think of one instance in my life where I have NOT
	 remained friends with someone I was romantically attached to.

	 Conversely, I've rarely had a romantic relationship that did
	 not begin with friendship.


	 I think it's possible to move both ways very easily.  Some
	 people, however, are of the mindset that you cannot be
	 friends after romance.  That is sad indeed.

	 kath

    
    	I am in the process of returning to a platonic relationship
    	with a man who I spent a lot of time getting to know.  We
    	can talk about anything and have spent a lot of time talking
    	about this transition.   I guess it's a cooling-off period.
    
    	I have mixed emotions.  On the one hand, I'll miss the physical
    	intimacy, yet we have a non-physical intimacy that actually means
    	more to me.  I'll miss the cuddling the most, though.
    
    	I really hope we'll be able to maintain the friendship.  I guess
    	I'll have to wait and see.  I'm still too new to this relationship
    	stuff (17 years of marriage doesn't count!) ;^)

    			sherry

    I am somewhat distressed by the comment in ( I think ) .6, something
    along the lines of "...as long as you stress that the relationship
    is platonic, then you don't have to worry about how ( or what?)
    the other person thinks..", and then goes on to stress the importance
    of communication. This comes across as a fairly hard-nosed attitude
    and more than a little uncommunicative. So what we should do, then,
    if we are to follow this advice, is to state our relational intentions
    and then totally rule out any change in the other person's feelings,
    because we can " stop worrying about them".
    
    Sounds a little cold to me
    
    Phil-Who-Speaks-From-Personal-Expierience

Re:     <<< Note 756.57 by BREW11::LAWTON "There ain't no Sanity Clause..." >>>

    Phil, 

    	What I was getting at was that if *both* people can talk about
    what they want and expect, and agree to be platonic friends at the
    start, then the expectations are set as such.  (i.e. they can
    relax and not worry.)  Note I said both people involved.  If one 
    person can't handle just a platonic friendship (wants more), or if 
    something changes along the way, I think that should be brought up.  
    That's where the communication is the key.  Communication is two-
    way...if someone's feelings do change and he/she doesn't say
    anything (or do anything that would indicate a change)... how is the 
    other person involved to know?  

    I never said (or at least certainly never meant) that someone
    should ignore the other persons feelings, or rule out a change!

    	Amy (who also speaks from personal experience)

    Maybe it's due to having come of reason in the Naughty '70s, but a lot
    of the platonic friendship debate sounds forced.
    
    Back long ago, the last time I was single, if sexual attraction
    developed, you showed it, and if the other person wasn't interested,
    they said so.  I lost one friend because I said no; I lost one friend
    because she said no.  (Those problems were mostly immaturity, I think.) 
    For the most part, there was no problem.
    
    A certain amount of physical attraction can be natural in friendship.
    It isn't necessary or sufficient, and it certainly doesn't have to be
    consummated.  But what's the purpose of laying ground rules up front if
    both friends are sensible adults?  A truly lustful louse will ignore
    the ground rules anyway, and there's always the chance that the ruler
    will unexpectedly find changed feelings towards the rulee.
    
    Anyway, the way I've always handled it is to assume (no matter _how_
    late at night someone shows up) that the friendship is purely platonic
    unless explicitly stated or demonstrated otherwise.  It's made some
    of my sexual relationships start a little later than they otherwise
    might have, but that hasn't necessarily been for the worse.
    
    Ray