Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    This is obviously a complex situation.  I don't pretend to havea
    solution.  I only offer one observation.
    
    It's obvious that she is not "in control of her life".  She is not
    with the person who she really wants to be with (you), and she is
    unable to do anything about it.  Even more ominous (to me at least)
    is the fact that she is hoping her current partner will "notice a
    difference" and decide to leave her.  In effect, she is explicitly
    waiting for him to control her destiny, and is unable or unwilling
    to exert control herself.
    
    I don't intend to minimize the difficulty of the situation, or the
    complexity of resolving it.  But, I only point out that it is
    difficult to establish a "good" (whatever the hell that means)
    relationship with someone who doesn't at least attempt to control
    their own lives.
    

    I wonder is her SO her husband? The answer to that question would
    affect half of my resonse to this delema.
    
    If I assume she is married, I say take advantage of the physical
    space between you and break off the relationship, let her go back
    to her marriage. Her move is well times for you to do this.
    
    If her SO is not her husband, insinuating less commitment, then
    you would have every right to fight for her return. Yet...it seems
    that you broke up your own marriage due in part to this other woman.
    
    From the information in your note I have many other questions:
    
    - are you confusing physical satisfaction for love? I take it you
    were not receiving that satisfaction at home? 
    
    - Have you given up on repairing your marriage?
    
    - What steps did you take to remedy that and other issues with your wife?

    - I wonder if the woman is trying to avoid hurting YOU, rather than
    what she is saying about hurting her SO. Afterall no on forced her
    to move. 
    
    I can understand your confussion there are many issues going on
    here. You need to work on them one by one. I doubt you have come
    to terms with your seperation and therefor hve little energy to
    try to sort out problems of an affair. 
    
    In shor I'd say "Time out". Leave the woman that moved alone for
    a bit, you need time to regroup your priorities and feelings.
    
    Gail

    

Re: .2
    
Her SO is not her husband.
My marriage has been "running out of gas" for quite a while. While this
situation may have hastened the separation I believe it would have happened
anyway. We had been going to counseling, and we reached a stalemate where
my wife was expecting certain changes to take place in me that I was not
willing to make. At this point yes, the marriage is beyond repair and while
we are on a friendly basis,  we both know we cannot live together.

I have given considerable thought to your point that maybe she didn't want
or doesn't want to hurt me. But my response is that upon her leaving while
I knew where she was going I did not have her address nor a phone number to
reach her. At the first opportunity she had after moving *she* called me
(which happened to be at 6:30 AM after her SO had left for work. She probably
calls me a lot more than I do her, and I usually receive mail (post office type)3-4 times a week.

I have thought a lot about the physical satisfaction vs. real love. And while
that was lacking in my marriage and perhaps initially was the reason for this
affair, I recieved much more from her than physical satisfaction. I was able
to be *me* as I wanted to be and she could be *her* and not what our respective
partners wanted us to be. I still think about that aspect, however and having
been without physical satisfaction since the X period she has been gone, I dwellless on that than just being *with* her. Is that real love? maybe, maybe not
but it feels that way to me.


I have tried to say lets not talk or write to each other for a while. But
both of us go a little crazy if we are out of contact for more than a couple
of days.

I will give a lot of thought to your points.

thanks

    Set mode/Dear_Abby:
    
    Just my opinion, but I would set a time limit.  You can't sit around
    and wait if it's causing this much havoc in your life.  She has
    to decide what she wants to do.  Waiting around for her SO to get
    tired of the situation is (bluntly) manipulative and cowardly (not
    to mention pretty unproductive).  Her SO deserves to know that her
    feelings for him have changed; it's his relationship, too.  You
    need to be able to make plans for your life, so you can't wait around
    for something to happen.  She doesn't want to hurt to her SO, but
    she's hurting you by keeping you dangling.  If she thinks this
    situation can be resolved without someone getting hurt, she's not
    being very realistic.  She needs to get this resolved one way or
    the other, and I doubt she'll do that without some kind of deadline.
    
    The problem, of course, is setting a deadline without provoking
    the "don't you give me an ultimatum!" reaction.  Find out how long
    she thinks it will be until her SO realizes that she's no longer
    interested in him.  Figure out how much longer you can wait and
    tie those two times together.  Tell her that the uncertainty is
    tearing you up and if something hasn't happened by <x> then she
    needs to decide.  It might be that she won't leave her SO.  But
    at least you'll know and you'll be able to get your life out of
    limbo.
                       

    Hmmm....
    
    I'm not one to give advice, mind you... and I won't.  But I remember
    seeing a movie which reminds me about this type of situation.  I
    vaguely remember the guy, (you), feeling so strong about her, so
    "right" about her, and knowing that she felt the same about him.
    Anyway, he had enough balls to lay his cards on the table and confront
    her and her "SO".... in other words.... he fought for her.  And
    after he did so, and it was out in the open, even in front of her
    "SO".... she also felt that such a burden had been lifted that she
    confessed her true feelings and decided to marry the dude, (you).
    
    Of course, this was only a movie.  Like I say, I won't give you
    any advice, but I admired the fellow for taking the risk and following
    what his heart felt.  Otherwise, they may have never been able to
    share their love.
    
    Just thought I'd mention it.
    
    Best regards, Dwight

    May I add a word of caution here from a different direction?
    
    There is a tendency for people to try and replace a relationship
    fairly quickly after a divorce. Very, very often these relationships
    are rebound type relationships with the first or second or third
    nice person that comes along. Be really careful...you are still
    two newly single...not even divorced to be really sure of your
    feelings in re another person.
    
    Bonnie

    
    	...change it around abit,...and,...let's just say I can relate.
    
    		If I may offer, first, my repect.  It takes ALOT to
    	wait for someone you love.  It's very lonely, you do much soul
    	searching,...and like many things in life, you're never 100%
    	sure that it will come true.
    
    		With all the other questions out of the way right now,
    	I'd like to offer you a few pieces of time-tryed advise.
    
    		- Take control of YOUR life.  As much as you may want
    	love, and need her, you can only control you and your actions.
    	She's got to control her own life.  If she's not strong enough
    	now to do that,..then you have to live with that.  
    
    		- Be there as her friend.  Be her supportive confidant.
    	Make sure she knows you're there for her as that.  Not the 
    	jealous, selfish person that wants only what's best for the
    	relationship, but who wants what's best for her.  When something
    	as emotionally gut renching as a divorce/seperation is going
    	on, you need a friend first, a lover second.
    
    		- This may sound corny, but keep busy.  There is 
    	nothing more awful than an entire Sunday night, thinking about
    	what the other is doing, why they are doing it, and why they're
        not with you.  Keep BUSY!
    
    	I don't pretend that these are your answers,..but these
    	suggestions may help you get through a very rough time.
    	
    	...and keep that hope in your heart.  Dreams DO come true.
    
    	Tina
    	

    I have to second Bonnie's warning about being too newly single.
    As a rule, after a breakup/divorce situation, it will take at least
    a year to go through the grieving process and being to gain the
    perspective that healing will give you.  I didn't do this after
    my first marriage, and paid dearly for it.  Now, I know better,
    and during my upcoming divorce, I intend to take things far more
    slowly.  Take time to sort through the old stuff before you get
    too mixed up in the new.  It will be to your advantage and that
    of your new love if you do.
    
    Best Wishes,
    
    Barb

    I am in a similar situation, whereas my SO left me in August to
    move away to be with someone else.  After my SO was settled and
    living far away he realized that it was me that he really wanted.
    The situation right now is, he doesn't have enough money to come
    home and I am not willing to move at this point in my life.  We
    talk on the phone and write letters.  It seems though that the more
    that I talk with him the harder it gets.  If I let myself get caught
    up in my life of working, working out, being with friends, etc and
    I go a week with out sepaking to him, it hurts a little less.
    
    
    I do believe in dreams and hope that mine as well as yours will
    come true.
    
    I do know one thing though, if you are meant to be together, someday,
    someway you will be.
                                 
    My advice?  Don't sit at home waiting for her to call, go out and
    do things with your friends, by yourself, whatever...but don't stop
    living while you wait.  If this is meant to be...it will.  Time
    is all that it takes.
    
    And believe me I know what waiting feels like.
    
    
    

    in re .9
    
    'not one note even had a hing of condemnation for these two people'
    
    maybe that is because we've learned that condeming people isn't
    a particularly useful way of helping them solve their problems?
    
    Bonnie

         RE: .9
         
         "....honesty and integrity."
         
         Honesty is well represented in the base note and
         the replies. Noone has sought to down-play the
         culpability of anyones' actions; nor have they sought
         to condone anyhone's actions. The base-note author
         honestly told his story; the replies have offered
         counsel on how to deal with his current reality.
         
         He did not ask for permission or for ligitimacy
         to his actions ...only advice with his current
         predicament. The replies were mindful of his request
         and responded in kind with great sensitivity.
         
         Integrity is actually a very subjective state of
         mind. However, I believe the highest order of integrity
         is with one's own self....you or noone else has a
         right to judge this person's integrity when you are
         not in a position to *see* what it is based upon.
         
         I hate to further the cause of cliche-mania...but...
         
         "Judge not lest ye be judged..."....and found wanting.
         
         If you have an opinion on the predicament he finds
         himself in, based on your opinion of the actions
         that percipitated it, then state them...generically.
         Otherwise...[IMHO]...you foster divisiveness and
         and intolerance by issuing edicts based on *your*
         interpretation of his character.
         
         [woof!]
         
         Melinda

>    He has already cheated on his wife, does she think he'll be faithful to
>    her? 

	 
	 if you steal something once, does this make you a habitual
	 thief?

	 if you go to bed with a guy/woman you just met, does this
	 make you a slut?

	 if you hated liver when you were a child, does that mean you
	 will never like it?


	 
	 Be real....just because a person cheats on someone else, does
	 not mean that they cannot be trusted ever again.  It does not
	 mean that they do not have the ability to be faithful.  There
	 are times in everyone's life that they do something
	 not-so-honorable to survive (yes, getting the loving and
	 affection you need, could be considered as survival).  That
	 does not make them untrustworthy for the rest of their lives.

	 
	 If this were the case, then I guess we should just forget
	 about prisons/reform schools and counseling.  


	 The basenote is very honest and open.  Condemnation is not
	 too helpful to this person's situation...and to echo a
	 previous reply.....

		"he who is blameless cast the first stone."

	 
	 kath

    Did you ever here the song sung by Rod Stewart called "My Heart
    can Tell you No????
    
    My advice is to give an ultimatum and if she is going to play games
    with you, cut off all ties. I know it is tough, but it is better
    than having you live in a fantasy world, and it can save your sanity.
    And if you make that decision, dont write to her on the vax, and
    delete all her mail messeges so you wont have any reminders.  I
    know it is going to be tough, and yeah, it is going to hurt a bit,
    but you will get over it and eventually find someone that is not
    attached to somone else.
    
    As Rod Sings...When the one you loves in love with someone
    else....don't you know its turture, I mean a living hell........
    
    Good Luck :-)
    
    
    Lynne

    	Why are the last replies critisizing .9 ?
    Maybe the way the note came about was very strong, but I do think he/she
    has a valid message.
    	If everyone read some of the earlier notes here:( 707,694,524,690,
    567,670---Ah, I won't go on,) one would think there would be more
    of .9's type replies. It is a concern to many people. 
    	Some that have been affected by another cheating on them may
    not be able to sit back, read these messages, and sign off without
    adding their feelings. I think (THIS IS IN ADVANCE MY PERSONAL
    OPINION ONLY) .9 was not off base. 
    	When we place notes in here, we should expect answers from all
    types. We should be reading all the following replies to see what
    others think.... Not just what we want to hear. If .9 didn't put
    in a note, I would have soon enough regarding similar questions.
                                                                    
    	Well, have fun with this one. :)
    

    
    "When we place notes in here, we should expect answers from all
    types. We should be reading all the following replies to see what
    others think.... Not just what we want to hear. If .9 didn't put
    in a note, I would have soon enough regarding similar questions."
    
    I couldn't agree with you more.  But then again, there are those
    who feel that if you don't agree with their standards, you don't
    belong in this notesfile.  There are those who feel a compulsion
    to bring out a 'flamethrower' rather than debate in an adult fashion.
    And then again, there are also those who feel a need to just
    pull replies that don't conform to their standards.
    
    
                                                                    
    	Well, have fun with this one. :)
    

    I rather thought all the quoting of the biblical injunctions against
    judging others, casting stones and so forth quite interesting.
    
    Roughly, and with bluntness [I like a person who speaks their mind!]
    .9 certainly brought up a valid point.  I am sure .9 did not mean
    to judge the people but to judge the actions.  
    
    I would like to add my 2c worth of biblical lore.  I won't finish
    the sentences but most of them begin with "Thou shalt not...."
    
    
    Marilyn
   
    

    re past few critics:
    
    I hardly think the base noter is looking for a lecture on ethics
    at this point. We've all make mistakes. I'm sure if you sat down with
    this person and he told you his story, you would listen with a
    sympathetic ear and hopefully you could look past your selfrighteous
    attitude and offer some constructive words.  
    
    Contributors come to this note looking for a fresh angle, some insight
    from the community. Can we attempt to offer this and take the editorial
    to another topic (or note).
    
    What ever happened to "do unto others..."
    
    Gail

         RE:.18
         
         ....quotes...interesting....

         See, there's hope for us yet! [grin]
                  
         .....9's point....
         
         Ahhhh....but I was not objecting to the POINT...only
         the manner in which it was [ahem] "couched". *I*
         felt [my opinion only...] it was *worded* abominably;
         resulting in the POINT being missed, and the DELIVERY
         being insulting. I made NO comment about the content
         of the reply; only its form.

	 ...Biblical Lore...

	 Nope, we shouldn't get into that...there is a 
	 proliferance of rather incestuous matings in the
	 Bible [Maccabees...forget the verse and chapter for 
	 one...] that I am sure a lot of folks would rather
	 *not* discuss....

	 I started it...I apologise. I will find another
	 source for my cliches....
         
         Melinda

RE: .19

"my question is, exactly how many times does a person have to lie or cheat
before you'd call him a liar or a cheat." 

'Seven times seventy times...'

'Hate the sin; Love the sinner...'

If you feel compelled to take a biblical stance, don't just take the
comdemnations.  Remember that Christ did not come to condemn. 

Jim.

    Has anyone read the book of Hosea?  How many times did he forgive
    his wife?
    
    Elizabeth

Thanks to all who have replied. I appreciate the understanding and advise
all have conveyed.

Both of us know all to well that none of this should have happened. But all
of the should haves and could haves all go out the window because it did
happen. I had told myself all of my life that I would *never* let this
happen, but it did. I can't change that. I feel the guilt, the sorrow, and
pain over what this has done to my family. Yes I am a liar and a cheater,
but I stop short of calling myself a criminal. Human being is more like it.
I have weaknesses and so do all of us. Each of us face temptations every
day, some we give in to some we don't. We are human. As a former Adult
Sunday school teacher and official in a church I am well aware of what
the Bible says about what we have done, and I have to deal with that. That
is between me and my God.

I came to H_R because there weren't too many places I could go and share
this, and by the time I entered this note, I was an emotional wreck. I 
greatly appreciate the opportunity to air this situation and I want those
who understand and have indicated so, I want you to know that I gained new
insight and was comforted quite a bit by what you had to say. I began to
see this a bit differently and will work to get this resolved quickly.

To those who were less than understanding and who reminded me how wrong
this all is and condemned my/our actions, thank you for that too. In most
cases you were right.

But if I may offer a suggestion. I have dealt with the guilt and hurt and
will continue to do so, probably for the rest of my life. But, I came
to H_R looking for advise and understanding. Others do to, and when
we do, particularly in a situation such as this, PLEASE hold off on
the condemning. Yes we probably have it coming, but I think most people
have gone through all of that. How to deal with the present situation
is where we need the help. Thats what I needed, and I thank you for the
opportunity to share this situation. I *definitely* feel better.

    in re .25
    
    If I saw someone who was troubled enter a note in a place like
    human_relations or womannotes (where I am a moderator) the last
    thing that I would do would be to publically condem the person.
    It is possible to express the idea that you do not agree with
    what the person did without publically 'condeming' them...we are
    none of us called to judge the morality of our brothers and sisters.
    
    and to the base note writer...I wish you well.
    
    Bonnie

    To the base noter:
    
    I really give you credit for putting this note in, you have a lot
    of courage.  You should not make the guilt feeling get to you, because
    it can really mess up your head.  You should use this as a learning
    experience and move on with your life. Life is full of a lot of
    wonderful things and you should not make your guilt come in the
    way of everything that life has to offer.  Just put it behind you,
    because nobody has to know but you, so just keep it your little
    secret and move on.  In time you will forget...as I say in many
    of these "affair related notes" Time Heals All Wounds. :-)
    
    I really wish you luck.
    
    Lynne S.

    
    
    	... and as a further aside....
    
    to all those quoting from the bible....
    
    		please try to remember, to some of us, it's just a book.
    

Guilt is a wonderfull thing for making us get off our dead a$$ and do something.
But, after some carefull thought, there is nothing that you can do about the
situation, forget about the guilt; it has outlived it's usefullness.

Then again, some people prefer to wallow in their guilt instead of doing
something to get out of it.

Jim.

RE:
>    to all those quoting from the bible....
>    please try to remember, to some of us, it's just a book.


	 I, for one, wasn't quoting anything but a line from a book.
	 Religion surely didn't even cross my mind...I'm surprised you
	 thought it did!  Taken out of context a quote from the Bible
	 cannot be remotely considered religious (IMHO, of course).

	 Shall I quote Shakespeare, perhaps?

	 kath

    
    re -1
    
    "I, for one, wasn't quoting anything but a line from a book."
    
    I, for one, never said YOU were.
    
    "I'm surprised you thought it did."
    
    It didn't.
    
    To perhaps clarify things.... Some people referenced quotes from
    the bible.  I would like to point out that for some people, like
    myself, the bible is merely a book, and not a guide to moral living.
    And when I say it is not a guide to moral living, I mean two things.
    First, it is not my guide nor all people's guide, and secondly,
    I live by my own moral guide and not that written in a book.
    
    Gene~
    
    
    

RE: -.1


>    I would like to point out that for some people, like myself, the
>    bible is merely a book, and not a guide to moral living.

Religious considerations aside, the Bible happens to be one of the
greatest masterpieces of literature in history. It **is** a guide to
moral living. Whether you subscribe to those teachings or not is a
different issue.

In my limited experience, people who object to quotes from the Bible
are usually those who couldn't come up with a quote to save their
life  :-). 


>    First, it is not ... all people's guide

True. Jack the Ripper would probably agree.


>    ... and secondly, I live by my own moral guide and not that
>    written in a book.

Interesting. If you did not get your moral guidance from a book, you 
must have either heard it somewhere (do you have a good memory?) or 
invented it all by yourself.

Also convenient. Like doing design work with no spec. No matter what
you come up with, you can't go wrong. There is nothing to measure
the result against. 

-- Ron 

    ... the Bible is 100% great literature, hasn't read "Numbers".
    Boooring.
    
    ... that Hosea forgave his wife a lot, has never asked why he
    married a priestess of Astarte in the first place, nor why he
    expected her to renounce her calling in the second.
    
    This pointless sidetrack came to your from
    
    						Ann B.

    Re .32	($Set humour on high)
    
"Religious considerations aside, the Bible happens to be one of the
greatest masterpieces of literature in history. It **is** a guide to
moral living. Whether you subscribe to those teachings or not is a
different issue."
    
    Tsk! Tsk! You forgot to say the magic words!! Remember???
    In My Not So Humble Opinion....  now, do you remember??
    Your paragraph is your opinion, is it not??
    

In my limited experience, people who object to quotes from the Bible
are usually those who couldn't come up with a quote to save their
life  :-). 

    Agreed. 

>    First, it is not ... all people's guide

True. Jack the Ripper would probably agree.

Not only him, but I believe Moamaar might.  Do you want to ask him??
    
>    ... and secondly, I live by my own moral guide and not that
>    written in a book.

Interesting. If you did not get your moral guidance from a book, you 
must have either heard it somewhere (do you have a good memory?) or 
invented it all by yourself.

    Definitely invented it myself.... and you're absolutely right...
    with nothing to "measure the result against", I guess I'm always
    *moral*... maybe?
    
    All points made with tongue firmly in cheek, and of course...
    		In My Not So Humble Opinion
    

I'd appreciate if the arguments about the Bible could be directed elsewhere,
and that those who wish to comment constructively on the topic author's
situation continue doing so.  Thanks.

				Steve

    Re .33 (Ann B)
    
    I *do* believe that the Bible is just a book, but see that there
    are lots of ways to look at it.  I brought up Hosea forgiving his
    wife, and I *have* questioned the wisdom of a prophet of Yahweh
    marrying a priestess of Astarte, expecting her to convert to his
    religion.  Perhaps other people with this problem should question
    the compatible/incompatible attributes in the relationship, and
    figure out what to do about them (I change, you change, we ignore
    them, we split up over them).
    
    BTW, I agree, Numbers is about as good of literature as the Chicago
    phone book.
    
    Elizabeth

I'll be damned if I know what the Bible has to do with the guy who 
loves her, but she's with someone else. However, there were a couple 
of replies I just couldn't resist responding to. Needless to say,
the following is deadly serious: 


RE: .33:

>	... that Hosea forgave his wife a lot, has never asked why
>	he married a priestess of Astarte in the first place, nor
>	why he expected her to renounce her calling in the second.

There is a theory (totally unfounded as yet, but we are working on
it) the lady used to withhold her favours unless the guy forgave her
daily. As to all these spurious questions, he loved her and did not
want her to stray even more, which is why he refrained from asking. 

Several pages before, there's also the mention of Isaiah, who 'came
near' the 'prophetess' (presumably, his wife), to make a political
point. This proves conclusively that the practice of sex was well
known in Biblical times, only the reasons for it have changed
(modern day politicians get sex AFTER making their political point,
but NOT with their wives).


And, RE: .34:
    
>	Tsk! Tsk! You forgot to say the magic words!! Remember??? In
>	My Not So Humble Opinion....  now, do you remember?? Your
>	paragraph is your opinion, is it not??

I can produce at least a dozen other people (not all of which are
Electronics Engineers and some of which are quite literate) that
support this very same opinion. This list of names is available upon
request for a small, nominal fee. 


>	... but I believe Moamaar might.  Do you want to ask him??

Well, I'd rather not. But I have, on the best authority, that he
would prefer the Koran to the Bible. Assuming, of course, that we
are talking here about the same Moamaar. 

-- Ron
    

<
<	 Shall I quote Shakespeare, perhaps?
<
<	 kath


      Ah yes, he had much to say of forbidden love.

      Romeo: This love that thou hast shown doth add more grief to too
      much of mine own. Love is smoke made of the fume of sighs;...

.38>	Romeo: This love that thou hast shown doth add more grief to too
.38>	much of mine own. Love is smoke made of the fume of sighs;...
    
    	Liesl, calm down!  You're delirious!  It's nearly Wednesday!
    
    							Carla
    

    There's some Shakespeare!!!  Way to go, liesl! 8^)

    see ya saturday!!!!

	kath

    PS: you forgot to your trademark, liesl!  what's wrong!?

    To the basenoter:
    
    I can sympathize with you. I found myself in a similar situation
    some time back. I was unhappily married and we both knew it was
    not going to last much longer. Our project had a coop student,
    Christine, working summers for us. I began to grow closer and closer
    to Christine. Soon we were spending time after work together as
    well. My divorce finally came through, but Christine was still seeing
    her longtime boyfriend. He wanted to marry her, but she did not
    feel strongly enough towards him. Neither could she hurt him by
    leaving him. Christine and I became very intimate, but she still
    clung to the other relationship. We professed our love for each
    other, but her other relationship would not die. 
    
      I finally felt that I had to do something. I was tempted to issue
    an ultimatum, but decided not to. I did not want to pressure any
    decisions. Things were complicated enough. I felt that if ours was
    true love, it would endure in time. I decided to stop seeing Chris
    for a while. I decided to join new groups, meet new people, and 
    basically get my life moving again. I would talk with Chris often,
    but tried desparately not to see her. It was sheer agony. To be
    so close to her, yet so far. I reasoned that her other relationship
    would not last much longer. 
    
      I figured this would not last longer than a few months, but more
    than a year went by. We still felt strongly towards each other 
    (distance makes the heart grow fonder?). My life was productive,
    I met new people. I found little interest in the women I met, but
    it was heading in the right direction. It still hurt a great deal
    to not have Chris in my life. Unfortunately the attraction is 
    still too strong to have her as a friend. Maybe eventually we'll
    both be free of relationships in the future and pick up where we
    left off. 
    
      I can see now that the circumstances were not right. Relationships
    are hard enough without additional pressures. I used to feel that
    I had lost my last opportunity for happiness. Now I can look at
    my relationship with Christine with fondness. I remember all the
    great times we had together, the openess, and the honesty. I miss
    her a great deal, but still feel I made the right decision. 

      My only advice is to wait. It may sound corny, but if yours is 
    true love, it will endure. You will seek each other out. It may
    take years for the true picture to settle, but you can use the 
    time in between to better yourself. 
    
      Hope this helps. From one who's been there....

      Your resident poetry lover here has found another poem that seems
      to fit the topic and I can't resist. This is from Lord Byron and
      it seems to be discussing this topic. Just substitute SO/boyfriend
      for husband. This was written in the early 1800s, amazing how
      little we've changed. liesl

		Remember thee! Remember thee!
 		Till lethe quench life's burning stream
		Remorse and shame shall cling to thee,
		And haunt thee like a feverish dream!

		Remember thee! Ay, doubt it not.
		Thy husband too shall think of thee!
		By neither shalt thou be forgot,
		Thou false to him, thou fiend to me!

    
    re:.0 "i'm looking for other people's opinions"

    ask and ye shall recieve...
    
    opinion #1 :  humans, in their blind faith to outdated traditions,
    sure do complicate life needlessly.
    
    opinion #2 :  woody allan/ manhattan :  "maybe life is a series
    of relationships and it doesn't matter how long they last"
    
    opinion #3 : if you love each other then you should be together.
    
    opinion #4 : it's better for her "other" guy (the one she'd like
    to leave for you) if she just tells him the truth, leaves him and
    gives him the opportunity to find other people.

    
good luck....
    rik

An update to the situation in note 718.0. Basically we are in the same
predicament and we still feel the same towards each other. I will be seeing
her in the next couple of weeks when I will be on a business trip to her
area. While it will be a time of joy at seeing her again, I also know it will
be a time of serious talk and decision making, as I fully intend on setting
up a frame for how much longer this will go on.

Since posting the base note, while still experiencing lonliness occasionally,
and hurt to the point I can't take it anymore, I have also been keeping busy
doing a lot of things, mainly things that I had always wanted to do, but 
for one reason or another didn't (all legal). So I have kind of set up
another life for myself that was lacking earlier.

I have also learned that I like living alone, having my space and all that
sort of thing, and while I still love her and she me, I don't want to
be forced in to a situation that we would have to live together because
of economic situations. I merely want a situation where we can be with 
each other when we want, and let the relationship develop naturally.


So, over the next couple of weeks I hope to have it all on the table.
I don't intend to go much longer like this, and if I were to walk away
from her now, it would not be because I don't love her. I simply must
get on with my life, and she hers. Life is too short to be this miserable
over a situation that can be changed.

    It sounds like you're doing a good job of coping with a difficult
    situation.  When you talk to her, there's one thing you might want to
    watch for:
    
    >I merely want a situation where we can be with each other when we
    >want, and let the relationship develop naturally.
    
    I think this is a good idea.  However, she might be intimidated by the
    idea of giving up the security of an existing relationship without a
    guarantee of security from you.  You might want to think about how
    you'd handle the issue if it comes up.

RE .45 Thanks for the advice. We have had a few discussions over that
very thing and both feel the same way. We know we love each other, we feel
we're right for each other, but we don't want to be forced into anything.
The only security in their relationship at this point is financial.


Thanks again