Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    See also notes 57, 65 and 665.
    
    			Steve

>    Another question...WHY would a single person want to get involved
>    with a married person?

	 challenging, dangerous, possibly physical with no strong
	 emotional ties....some people just don't like things handed
	 to them on a silver platter....

	 k

         If you are talking "really" married...ie: with no
         intention of leaving the relationship...just for
         having outside interests...then you have a totally
         safe environment...one in which a single person can
         "play" all they want without the threat of long-term
         committment...
         
         If you are not talking "really" married...then you
         have the challange of the competition....to "steal"
         away from someone else what you want...[of course
         many people who do it for this reason immediately
         lose interest once they have won...]
         
         And then you have those folks who didn't really "plan"
         it you know....just happened and they have no better
         idea "why" than you do....
         
         Melinda

    Why would a single person get involved with a married person??
    It is called chemistry....and sometimes chemistry is there between
    two people, a very strong attraction.  Even though the person is
    married...there might be some quality that attracts the unmarried
    person.  Sometimes it is very hard to resist, and since it is
    "dangerous" for the married person,it make it even more fun.
    
    All I can say is the married person has to try to avoid
    temptation,sometimes it is hard, but it can save a marriage, and
    your mind.
    
                                    Lynne

    I agree it's Chemestry....but what causes that Chemestry.
    
    	Right now, I'm in a situation where there is Chemestry between
    myself and a lady friend of mine.  She is spoken for...not married,
    but she does have an SO.  We have been friends for a couple years,
    and we have both acknowledged a spark betwwen us.  Now this is where
    I stop my pursuit.  I care enough about her that I know if I force
    her to choose between me and her SO, that it will hurt her one way
    or the other.  We are able to act as friends, and we do see each
    other on a friendly basis on occasion.   We both still know that
    the feelings or "spark" is still there.  We accept it for what it
    is, and cherish the closeness it creats.  She is becoming one of
    my very best friends.  If later on she decides that she no longer
    wishes to be with her SO, then that spark between us will hopefully
    be there.  If the spark dies, then we can cherish our friendship.
    
    	I guess what I'm trying to say is,   It's ok to have feelings
    for others, but it is a representation of ones charecter as to what
    one does with those feelings.  You can both live with these feelings,
    as long as you keep them under control.
    
    Bill

>    	Right now, I'm in a situation where there is Chemestry between
>    myself and a lady friend of mine.  She is spoken for...not married,
>    but she does have an SO.  We have been friends for a couple years,
>    and we have both acknowledged a spark betwwen us.  Now this is where
>    I stop my pursuit.  I care enough about her that I know if I force
>    her to choose between me and her SO, that it will hurt her one way
>    or the other.  We are able to act as friends, and we do see each
>    other on a friendly basis on occasion.   We both still know that
>    the feelings or "spark" is still there.  We accept it for what it
>    is, and cherish the closeness it creats.  She is becoming one of
>    my very best friends.  If later on she decides that she no longer
>    wishes to be with her SO, then that spark between us will hopefully
>    be there.  If the spark dies, then we can cherish our friendship.
 
I think this is fine and honest and shows you have strong sense of 
right and wrong and the determination to stand for what you believe in.
The subtle power to atually "live" what you believe is a gift lacking
in many of us.
   
>    	I guess what I'm trying to say is,   It's ok to have feelings
>    for others, but it is a representation of ones charecter as to what
>    one does with those feelings.  You can both live with these feelings,
>    as long as you keep them under control.

But with this I have a problem. Not once in this paragraph do you
indicate that what you are stating is a *personal* opinion and that
the *judgements* that you blatantly make are valid only for those
who *believe* as you do...

I suggest that it is "OK" to do several things other than the single
choice you mention and still be a human being of character. I also
suggest that you can "live" with these feelings under control or
otherwise and also function quite exceptionally.

[FLAME ON]

I *resent* the implication [that *appears* to be here...perhaps I
am over-reacting?] that any other course of action but denial and
chastity are tantamount to moral turpitude....there are many definitions
of morality, and I prefer to let most folks define it for themselves.

[FLAME OFF]

I do not denegrate "your" position at all....in fact a respect you for it
and applaud your strength of character....I just wish we would resist
the urge to hold other's character up to a mirror of our own dimensions,
it somehow negates our intentions to accept other's uniqueness.

Melinda
    Bill

    DONNA -
    
    	Interesting questions - allow me to share a personal observation.
    
    	As a married man (28 yrs.), 4 chiildren, nice home, job, etc.,
    on surface quite the good life - yet there is a void. In my case,
    I have been a victim of long term depression resulting in a terrible
    long term loneliness & isolation. I haven't actually had an affair,
    but if the occassion presented itself, I would give it a try, not
    so much for lustful pleasure as for the joy of intimacy with another.
    
    	I recognize the moral questions, and the bottom line has to
    rest withone's personal values, one's personal life situation.
    
    	Hope this modest observation helps ...
    
    
    					Guy B.
    
    

    Maybe I should have used another word apart from "charecter".  

    I didn't mean to imply "everyone who doesn't believe in my ideals
    is weak of Charecter."  I never said anything derogatory towards
    people who don't feel that way.   I just  said that it shows how
    one feels about infidelity, which is a part of the make up that
    is defined as "Charecter".  I didn't mean to shoot down anyone.
    
    BTW I just assumed that every note is the writers "personel opinion",
    I didn't think that I needed to state that fact.
    
    Bill

    This is from a noter who wishes to remain anyonmous.
    

    ************************************************************************
    
                              


		       Walk Awhile in My Shoes


    Having debated with myself for over a week about the advisability of
    entering my response to this question, I was finally convinced by the
    judgmental tone of so many of the responses.  Perhaps I can shed some
    nonjudgmental light on the original question:  why WOULD a single
    person have an affair with a married person? 

    The tone of the question itself implies that anyone in his/her right
    mind would shy away from such an affair.  Certainly the majority of the
    responses concur with that implication.  So let me begin by saying
    that, in comparison with the general population as I know it, I am
    reasonably healthy emotionally and have never been hospitalized for
    mental or emotional reasons.  I have been treated by
    psychotherapist(s), who, knowing my situation, supported the choices I
    made in having the affairs described below. 

    Yes, affairs.  Plural.  I've done it three times.  Each for a different
    reason.  Here's why: 

    1.  To prove a point (affair with married man #1):  I was technically
    still married myself when this affair started.  My marriage of over a
    decade was breaking up because I had realized my husband was abusing me
    emotionally and, since he didn't/couldn't recognize his actions as
    abusive, he wouldn't/couldn't change.  One of the several means he used
    for abuse was to tell me almost daily that I was frigid.  My gut didn't
    believe it, but my head was beginning to wonder.  And I had no other
    experience to draw upon in support of either side.  So I set out to
    prove to myself where the problem lay.  A married man whom I had known
    for several years was my willing partner in the experiment.  I chose
    him on the basis of his being "safe" (i.e., married, so there would be
    no chance of his wanting "to make an honest woman out of me," discrete,
    and healthy -- as far as anyone can tell).  We never were "emotionally"
    involved with each other.  I suspect his motivation was the challenge
    of the chase.  We were both successful in our individual goals.  Total
    length of our affair: three encounters.  Cold and calculating?  You
    bet, but self-preservation usually is. 

    2.  Chemistry (affair with married man #2):  I was divorced.  We met
    each other in the business context.  It was chemistry.  I had never
    felt such an instant and total attraction to another human being in my
    life.  He felt the same way.  All we had said to each other was,
    "Pleased to meet you," and our eyes did the rest.  We fought it for
    over a year, aided by the fact that we lived over 1000 miles from each
    other.  But then we gave in.  Sex was ho-hum, but the feeling of
    soul-mates continues to this day.  About 14 months into our
    (long-distance) affair, he decided to leave his wife.  I asked him to
    consider the action carefully and to do it ONLY IF HE WOULD DO IT EVEN
    IF I WEREN'T IN HIS LIFE.  He did, in fact, move out of the house, only
    to turn around and move back in (we didn't even see each other during
    this time), because he couldn't stand the thought of being away from
    his children.  I encouraged him to put all his energies and efforts
    into making his marriage work, since that was his decision.  Although
    we occasionally talk with each other over the phone, we haven't seen
    each other since, and he IS putting more effort into his marriage.  Did
    our affair harm his marriage?  I don't think so.  I believe it tested
    it and pointed out the strong areas and the areas they both needed to
    work on.  I have no intention of seeing him again as long as either of
    us is married to another.  But I do fantasize that someday, in the
    distant future, we will both be free of other obligations and will find
    each other again. 

    3.  Loneliness (affair with married man #3):  We had known each other
    for over five years, working in the same office and on the same
    projects. What had started out as an instant and mutual dislike had
    grown, over exposure (Oops, 8^)) into a grudging respect and finally
    friendship.  We were both lonely people, living at great distances from
    family, moving from one location to another too frequently to have
    developed close friendships, turning to ourselves for affirmation and
    support.  That's undoubtedly why we were open to friendship with each
    other.  I knew his wife socially, and could tell that there was
    something deeply wrong, but didn't know what.  He provided moral
    support for me during my divorce, and I provided moral support to him
    when his wife made several suicide attempts. (No, I wasn't the cause.
    This situation pre-dated me by 20 years.)  Without going into details,
    I was aware as a friend, long before I became his lover, that his
    marriage was dysfunctional to the extreme and had been so for over two
    decades.  He was fully committed to the marriage, though no longer
    sexually to her.  I was never a threat to his marriage, and we both
    knew that eventually I would go on to a permanent relationship.  We
    answered a deep and basic need for each other (more than sex, though I
    can't find the words to describe it). 


    In summation, I believe our society has attached far too much import to
    sexual encounters.  To me they are (1) basic, instinctual drives and
    (2) a deep expression of the love one human being has for another. Just
    as I can love more than one person without being disloyal to any of
    them, I can choose to have sex with more than one of the people I love
    without being disloyal.  I do not believe the human species was
    designed to be monogamous, but that some of our religious and social
    institutions have demanded it.  I believe that the outrage some people
    have expressed over a spouse's "infidelity" stems from social and
    religious programming rather than from a basic drive for monogamy. 

    Be that as it may and contrary to the above, I am sufficiently well
    programmed by my society/religion to be essentially monogamous.  I'm
    now married to a wonderful man, and I CAREFULLY considered my ability
    to live with the vow to "foresake all others and cleve only unto him"
    in our marriage ceremony before taking it.  I have no intention of
    breaking that vow, but the social contract of marriage is a contract
    between two, fallible human beings, and I've long since lost all faith
    in "happily ever after." 

    Just one woman's opinion. 
  

    

    That was courageous, honest, and (I think) quite thoughtful.  Since
    values are very often introjected (i.e., swallowed whole at our
    mother's knee... or from other similar injunctive sources) I think
    many of us (me included) may have a very pronounced tendency to
    judge others harshly about our own values.
    
    I especially appreciated the wisdom I saw evident in the last statement
    -- the idea that "happily ever after" may be an unrealizable fantasy.
    
    Thanks for sharing that, anon....
    
    R.
    

    >many of us (me included) may have a very pronounced tendency to
    >judge others harshly about our own values.

    Not intending to start a rat hole, but...
    
    How does one judge another if not by there values? If someone elses 
    values are quite different from mine, I will judge them harshly. I
    am not talking trite differences in opinion, I am talking basic
    values in life. 

    The anon. person has stated her values, obviously she has every
    right to feel that way. I would offer no appology for judging her
    based on those values, if I chose to make a judgement about her
    at all. 
    
    Gail
    
    

RE: .12


>    How does one judge another if not by there values? If someone elses 
>    values are quite different from mine, I will judge them harshly.

Why assume that, if your values are different than someone else's,
your values are more valuable, or more 'correct', than theirs? 

Why do you feel you have the right to judge them at all? 

As long as others' behaviour does not infringe on our rights, you
and I should accept **their** right to live by **their** standards
and values. That's known as 'freedom of choice'. If we want it for
us, we should insist that 'they' have it, too. 

I find that if I refrain from judging others, they, in turn, refrain
from judging me. One can convey EXACTLY THE SAME IDEAS by saying: "In
my opinion..." rather than "You are wrong, because...". 

-- Ron

    
    I am fairly recently separated (last September), and I was talking
    over the phone to a woman friend (a month ago).  I was sharing about my
    desire to have a relationship again, but the confusion I was feeling
    about whether I was ready for a committed one yet, or whether
    I just needed someone for sexual needs and to relieve lonliness.
    
    She said something that sort of shocked me.  It brought up
    all sorts of questions in my head.  What she said was, people that
    are recently separated and not ready for another committed relationship
    yet, should consider an affair with a married person.
    
    Her rationale was that there are women out there that are married
    but unfulfilled in their marriage, and an affair with such a one
    would be a situation in which I could be temporarily fulfilled without
    the "committment".
    
    No, I haven't bought into this idea, but it certainly raises all sorts
    of questions.
    
    For instance, suppose you're a single person and attracted to a married
    person.  Is it not right (loaded phrase) for you to pursue the
    married person ?  Or is it "fair" for you to do so, and leave the
    responsibility on the married person to choose between keeping their vows
    or have an affair with you ?
    
    Related question:  When a married person gives in to another in terms
    of a romantic affair, can we assume that their marriage had a problem
    already?  Or instead can we suggest that the single person is to blame
    for "damaging" their marriage ?
    
    This gets into the whole question of human emotional strength. 
    Personally, I've had experiences where I didn't have much of an
    interest in a person, but when she revealed that she "liked" me, or
    that she was "attracted" to me, suddently I started feeling much
    more strongly towards her.
    
    Can happily married people be "won over" in this way (i.e. by another
    person expressing a romantic interest in the married person) ?
    
    If so, then it would start to sound like it's the responsibility of
    single people not to pursue married people, since human nature is
    weak enough that such a pursuing could tear the marriage apart.
    
    On the other hand, if people are not generally so weak, it wouldn't
    matter that a single person pursues a married person.  If it's a sound
    marriage, the married person will not give in.
    
    I'd like to get personal here, for a moment, in case any of you
    are attempting to judge me by my rambling.
    
    I'm currently single, and have been separated since last September,
    and intend to go through with a formal divorce.
    
    I recently started seeing a woman with whom I very quickly became very
    emotionally attached with.  Unfortunately, she has chosen to have
    an exclusive relationship with another man, whom she actually had met
    before she met me.
    
    So I'm no longer seeing her.
    
    But my feelings for her were very strong.  If I were in a relationship with,
    or even married to, a person with whom I felt that strongly, I would
    easily make vows of fidelity.
    
    Now that I've experienced that strong feeling, I realize now that
    that's what I'm looking for -- someone with whom I can be in a
    relationship with whom the feelings are so strong that I won't want
    to have affairs with anyone else.
    
    So, until I find such a one again, I will keep meeting women and
    attempt to be honest with them, but not let myself get into a
    "serious" relationship until those strong feelings are really there.
    
    (it can be so difficult to express these things accurately in one
    flick of the fingers, so feel free to send me mail if you want
    to talk with me about any of this)
    
    Thanks for listening.
    
    /Eric

    Although fairly young (29)I have been married for ten years this summer.
    As opposed to cheating I feel I have a solution. 
    
    Although sex is still exciting with my wife, I, like a lot of other 
    people, still feel the urge to share an intimate time with a different 
    person. My solution is to be upfront and explain this to my mate. If your
    relationship is strong, you may find you can seperate sex from your
    marriage and both indulge in a fantasy or two from time to time.
    
    It seems to me, that problems occur when you close down the lines
    of communication and cheat, not by the actual act of sex itself. By 
    being upfront with your spouse you can talk through any issues that 
    bother you and perhaps realize that you do not want to end a marriage 
    just because of sex.
    
    Although this note may sound a little wierd, due to the fact that my 
    wife and myself can discuss this issue, we have both learned a lot 
    about each others true sexual feelings and feel we could very easily 
    handle the situation should it take place, thus elminating the coined 
    phrase "Cheating". In fact it has added a spark that we have not
    had in years. Once again I think you have to be honest with your
    spouse and yourself and just talk things through. If this is an
    urge you feel constantly then I guess you have to examine your married
    relationship a little closer.
    
    
                                 
    For what it is worth
    Mike

    I think in missing my point, you may have proved it...
    
    

    
    
    .16 was not clear (at least to me).  It said
    
    	"...you may find you can separate sex from your marriage and both
    	indulge in a fantasy or two from time to time."
    
    Mike, does this mean you and your wife from time to time have sexual
    experiences with others?  Or did you mean that by TALKING about the
    desires with your wife, the problem has been kept under control ?
    
    Thanks.
    
    /Eric

    Eric (.17)
    
    Kind of a hard question to answer over the airways but I guess having
    started something I should reply.
    
    My wife and myself have cheated on each other in the past without
    consent and caused damaged to our marriage that took years to rebuild.
    We decided that sex with a stranger wasn't worth the price we paid
    in the trust and faith we both lost in each other.
    
    In answer to your question, although the great event hasn't taken place
    yet, we have met another couple that wants to pursue the same type
    of adventure. My wife and myself have had more laughs planning this
    encounter then we have had in years. Not a single stone has been
    left unturned and we feel we couldn't be closer.
    
    Don't get me wrong however. I am not suggesting, even for a minute,
    I could live this type of lifestyle forever. It just seems at
    this point in our relationship we both need that little extra zap
    and have found a way to do it with peace of mind.
    
    Isn't life great !!
    
    Mike

How does 'a little extra zip' outside your relationship help you in your
relationship?  I've always felt that matter most in a relationship are those
things that you do *in* that relationship. 

Some times an affair merely diverts attention from a problem in the relationship
which is difficult to deal with to the affair.  It's a good smoke screen tactic,
and applies to other forms of 'acting out' as well... 

Jim.

    I may be old fashioned but I thought that marriage was supposed
    to be with the person that you wanted to build a family with.  I
    thought that the person you marry was suppposed to be the only one
    that you want for the rest of your life.  I know that people hae
    desires, but I thought that your spouse was suppose to be the one
    and only object of those desires.  I thought that if any of these
    things weren't true then the whole marriage was a mistake, and that
    it was time to try and get a real marriage with the right person.
    
    Bill

         RE:.20
         
         I don't know that I would call it "old fashioned"...more
         like "unscathed".....[smile].
         
         I think your intentions and beliefs are similar to
         what "most all" of us have had at some point in our
         lives....and for various and sundry reasons "some"
         of us have had to "adjust" our beliefs.
         
         Changing how black and white we are about beliefs
         is a normal process....as we experience more events,
         we have to assimilate those into our view of reality.
         And sometimes reality takes a hard hit....[grin]. There are
         classic psychological studies about people who refuse
         to let "any" of their beliefs bend with reality...it
         can do a real trip on your mind...most people bend
         most, and select "some" to use as "truths".
         
         [Notice I said nothing about "growing up" here, it
         has nothing to do with the process...There are very
         young children who get this down...and some very
         sophisticated 40 year-olds who never do...]
         
         Anyway, we tend to choose some beliefs in their lives
         that are unassailable....we won't change them for
         anything....others we will let adjust. Many people
         in our society at least give "lip-service" to fidelity
         in marriage as one of those "unassailables"....You
         have to check the divorce and adultery rate to judge
         the seriousness of the "lip-service" but...there
         are a number of folks who truly live by this belief.
         
         But....it depends what is most important to *you*
         as to which of these beliefs you let slide a bit.
         For me, the notion that my husband of 20 years would
         never look, touch, or feel about another woman is
         rather ludicrous...I attach very little significance
         to the mere act of sexual intimacy in and of
         itself...that is not to say I do not attach importance
         to it...I do...but not a great deal of significance
         as far as the effect on my and his relationship.
         We have on-going and frequent conversations about
         this and we had this understanding when we married,
         lo so many years ago...[smile]....
         
         There are *other* beliefs that I do not budge on...but
         this is not one of them....touch my kid and you are
         dead! 
         
         I guess I have two points here:
         
         	First....if we look at the actual incidence
         	of adultery and divorce....I think we must
         	accept the *fact* that it occurs fairly
         	regularly....and that the pain and hurt
         	caused by it are attached to the *protestation*
         	of couples that they *will* be fidelitous...at
         	least in part....if I did not *promise* to
         	fidelitous, I break no promise by *not*
         	being so....if on the other hand, I
         	*promise* to be so....and then for whatever
         	reason have an affair....the damage and loss
         	of trust are huge.
         
         	Second....it makes me angry/sad when we say
         	we are trying to understand....that we 
         	continually write things that indicate the
         	morality of *anyone's* actions in this arena
         	are good, bad, or indifferent. 
         	I suggest that we can only speak for our
         	own moralities....there are no absolutes,
         	except for the ones *I* define for myself...
         	those beliefs I will not let slide. I hesitate
         	to make judgements about others' morality,
	        mine is altogether too frail to stand a return
         	engagement....we each try to do the best
	        we can, I guess....BUT...."black and white"
         	has always scared me....it allows people
         	with enough power behind them to dictate
         	beliefs for the masses...we have had experience
         	with world leaders who have attempted that
         	before, I believe.
         
         Melinda

    Re: 22
    
    Why is it ludicrous to expect a spouse not to "touch" another person?
    
    
    If Bill's view is unscathed, then may I classify yours as being
    cynical?  I may be wrong but I get the impression that you look
    down your nose at people who keep with traditional ideals and values.
    And you also assume it is because these people "don't know any better."
    
    Personally, I don't see how anyone makes it through 21 years of
    living without being "scathed." [smile]
        
    Regards,
        
    Kris
    
                                          
                                  
                                            
    
                                                
                                     

    Re: 23
    
    Why is it ludicrous to expect a spouse not to "touch" another person?
          
	My opinion only...

	I find it difficult to believe in this society, with people
	constantly thrown into close contact with others, that a 
	person would never in a life time of travelling and working
	meet another woman that would appeal enough to him to
	want to be intimate with her.

	I didn't say that *you* could not live your life that way,
	I just said that in my opinion I find it doubtful.
    
    If Bill's view is unscathed, then may I classify yours as being
    cynical?  

	You *may* do anything you like as far as I am concerned.

	Are you asking if I agree with your classification?

	If you are...sure I would accept that view. I probably am.

    I may be wrong 

	I hope you are! I was attempting "wry humor" obviously
	I missed.

    but I get the impression that you look down your nose 

	At 4'10" I "look down my nose" at very *few* people.

	Seriously, my point was exactly the same in *your*
	direction. *I* get the feeling that many folk in this
	Notes File "look down their noses" at any lifestyle that
	does not meet with the traditional standards.

	I am perfectly happy to have everyone live their lives
	the way they see fit...I have no particular opinion
	on whether traditional or non-traditional values are
	*better* for *people* in general.

	I *DO* have opinions on the nature and origins of these
	traditional values; the purposes they *served* when they
	were instituted; and the process of changing mores in a
	society. I have *tried* [obviously unsuccessfully in your
	opinion] to structure my comments so they pointedly did not
	attack the noter but the topic under discussion.  My
	apologies if I *missed*.

	My intent in .22 was to point out that we are all
	taught many things about right and wrong.  Some of
	these things we *edit* as we evolve our own 
	definitions that we will live by. The choice of
	*which* we edit, is a personal one. And one that I
	think is too individual to generally condemn or
	approve by saying "this is right" or "that is
	wrong".

	Yes, yes, yes, there *are* indeed mores that an entire
	society will accept as R or W....but if you look at the
	divorce and adultry rates...I think it is fairly obvious
	that fidelity is one that a person can receive very mixed
	singnals on.  On another tack...there are some fairly
	large sects of the world population that not only condone
	extra marital sex, but encourage it...not to mention
	multiple marriages...[grin]  Are they all infidels?

    at people who keep with traditional ideals and values.

	Whose tradition?  Whose values? Do you assume yours are
	better than mine?  What if mine differ from yours?  Does
	*one* of  us *need* to be right? Or can we both have
	our opinions?

    And you also assume it is because these people "don't know any better."

	I fail to find any comment that I made that *assumes* this.
	Please enlighten me by quoting me and I will retract it and
	apologise.  I did not mean to do this.

	If on the other hand, there is not statement that I made
	that substantiates this claim...you might apologise to me?

	[I might *suggest* in my most polite voice...that people who
	make statements about the *motivations* of someone else's
	comments had better be clairvoyant...it is rather difficult
	to make statements like "you also assume" and get away
	with them logically.  There is no way on God's earth that
	*you* can *know* what *I* assume...]

    Personally, I don't see how anyone makes it through 21 years of
    living without being "scathed." [smile]

	I did...[sorry it was a "gentler" age I guess.] I did
	not get "cynical" until about 27 or so....

	And the comment was made in jest...not in seriousness.

	But, if Bill took it as derogatory, I apologise for that also.
	Then again maybe Bill took it the way I meant it....[?]

	As an aside...It *seems* that *I* am apologising for 
	holding a different opinion here than the majority.
	I would hope that my "view" of that is incorrect...
	we *do* spend a good deal of time in here expounding
	on our ability to hear all sides of an issue....I hope
	you are are only *critcising* my delivery and not my
	opinion....may *I* *assume* that?

	Regards right back...

	Melinda

    Melinda,
    
    	I believe it's a given that all these notes are in the writer's
    own opinion.  When I or anyone else states that we think that
    infidelity is morally wrong, we are mearly stating our beliefs.
    It should not be taken as a personel attack on how others who difer
    with us think.  
    
    	You have the right to think the way you want to.
    
    	In my opinion infidelity is wrong.  I don't see your logic in
    comparing the way other countries view infidelity.  You say that
    (not quoting, but this is what I got from it.) in some countries
    infidelity and multiple spouses are accepted.  The same holds true
    for alot of things, including murder.  For example, Iran and the
    Rushdie "Satanic Verses" thing.  Iran and alot of Muselums believe
    that Rushdie should be killed.  The U.S. and other countries believe
    that he should be saved.  Who is right?  Doesn't Iran have the right
    to their own opinion without being condemed?  Doesn't the U.S. have
    the right to condemn Iran's actions?  The same holds true here.
    In my opinion infidelity is worse than murder.   At least with death
    the person who died stops suffering instantly.  The person who holds
    the same beliefs as I do and falls victem to a infidelous spouse
    has to suffer with the scars and scathings that have been left and
    they continue to suffer for years...
    
    (As for me being scathed or not, I point you to the not of The effects
    of cheating on the faithful.)
    
    
    Bill
    

    As for not being able to *touch* another while being married...
    
    Touching is fine ( I do it )  but there are limits (set by me, in
    my opinion) to what is an ok touch.  Sexual touching is right out...
    
    Bill

       I just wanted to make two comments, the first is:
       
            I once got a one issue, one sided explanation of "why" from
       a woman who lived "down the hall" from me about 15 years ago.  It
       stuck with me because it was delivered so clearly and my wife
       took such great offense (became defensive?). 
            The woman was a secretary for the owner of a small (about
       100 employees, +/- million revenue) business.  He was on a
       zillion community committees and always going someplace on
       business.  She had been divorced twice and had a 10 year old
       daughter at the time.  I thought they were having an affair (read
       romantic) until she gave my wife and I her side of the picture. 
            She said she _only_ dated married men because it gave her
       complete control of the situation with no pressure to
       promise/deliver anything she didn't want to.  If she didn't want
       to go out or have him over, she didn't.  If she wanted to see
       some other man she did.  If she got any complaints, she would
       remind the guy that he was married.  If she wanted to break off
       the affair she just asked the guy "How can you say you love your
       wife [kids] if you are here with me? etc. etc."  And with this
       guy in particular, money was not a problem.
            When I asked if single guys were really that bad, she said
       that when a single guy asked "Are you seeing someone else?, Why
       don't you want to go out tonight?" etc. he had a right to an
       answer.  A married guy had no rights, and he was lucky to be
       getting the companionship, affection and sex and therefore
       couldn't complain.
            The situation struck me as WOW, what a one way street!

       The second comment is;
            I agree very strongly with the comment a few replies back.
       If you promise fidelity you should keep the promise.  If you make
       a point of not promising fidelity and both people agree that its
       OK to not promise, then (IMO) having sex outside of the marriage
       is not an issue. 


                       Richard

    Kudos to Melinda Regnell for presenting a non-standard but
    right-on-the-money view of the way we evolve and adapt our own personal
    moral and ethical systems from (my words, now) "what we were taught"
    to "what we learn for ourselves".
    
    And a doubly-deserved appreciation for maintaining grace under fire
    when Kris Kress jumped her case about it.  In MY opinion, Kris,
    I thought Melinda's first entry was leaning over backwards to present
    an opinion without forcing it down anyone's throat or denigrating
    anyone for disagreeing.  I wish I could write so clearly.
    
    DougO

    It is nice to believe in fairytales, the happily ever after...I
    still do in a way.....but...in real life, almost all married (yeah
    even happily married folks) come accross tempation at least once
    in thier married lives..it is a normal part of life. The important
    thing to do is to avoid temptation, and it will result in a happy
    faithful marriage. :-)
    
    Lynne S.

       While you may choose to not act on it I believe it is in our
       nature to be able to love more than one person. The human race
       would have had trouble in reproduction if we mated for life.
       It's only recently that people could expect to live long years.
       People died during child bearing years and losing a mate would
       put you out of the gene pool if you didn't try again.

       It's natural to love many. It's our culture that says this is
       tabu. liesl

    re:-.1
    
    It's ok to love more than one but why not wait and just do one at
    a time. (I'm not talking orgys.)  Why not have one lover while he/she
    is alive.
    
    re-.2  
    
    	Temptation is what it's all about.  If you have the strength
    not to give into that temptation then good for you.
    
    Bill

<   <<< Note 694.31 by MCIS2::AKINS "I C your Schwartz is as big as mine!" >>>
<
<    re:-.1
<    
<    It's ok to love more than one but why not wait and just do one at
<    a time. (I'm not talking orgys.)  Why not have one lover while he/she
<    is alive.
    
	Bill, I'm not encouraging affairs. I'm just saying that I think
       it's human nature to be able to love (sexually and emotionally)
       more than one person. How an individual reacts to the situation
       is another thing. I was faithful through the 15 some years of my
       marriage (not that it seems to have helped in the long run but
       that's another story). That doesn't mean there were not times
       that I was tempted. liesl

    Oh...I mistook the meaning of love there....
    
    I can relate...I have fallen in love with more than one person at
    a time, but I figured who I really loved the most and went with
    it.
    
    Bill

Some of the comments in this note (and the associated notes strings in
various other conferences) encouraged me to dig out the following old
French verse.  I'm typing it from home on a machine which doesn't fully 
understand such niceties as accents on characters, so just bear with me.

	"Monsieur de Chevreuse ayant declare que tous 
	 les cocus devraient etre noyes,
	 Madame de Chevreuse lui a fait demander
	 s'il etait bien sur de savoir nager!"

Which loosely translates as:
	"Monsieur de Chevreuse demands that all cuckolds be drowned,
	 Madame de Chevreuse asks if he is sure he can swim!"

					Late Night Nigel