Conference quark::human_relations-v1

	 You know what I said in MOANS, but I'll say it again here.
	 Its YOUR wedding and you can plan/have it in any way you
	 want.  It seems to me from this note that you will never be
	 able to "please" your MIL, so, why try?  Eventually she will
	 see that her 'ploy' to run your life is not working and she
	 will give up.  First of all, you put who YOU want in the
	 wedding party.  Second of all, if people don't show up for
	 your wedding because of something your MIL said, then maybe
	 they aren't the people you thought they were.

	 This is a time for YOU!  The more you give into your MIL, the
	 more she will try to run your life.  Stand up to her and tell
	 her what YOU want, she may hate you to begin with, but after
	 a while, she'll begin to respect you.  Look at it as if she
	 is testing your strength and endurance.

         And no matter what people say, IMHO, you're marrying *HIM*,
         NOT his family. Its unfortunate that you have to live with
	 them in order to pay for the wedding. PLEASE do not let her
	 get the better of you!  Stand up to her.....

	 kathy

    It sounds like you have a tough road ahead of you.  I think it is up to
    your fiancee to tell his mother to BACK OFF.  If I was you I would tell
    your fiancee to pack his bags, both of you move to an apartment and
    rather than have a large wedding (complete with obnoxious in-laws) I
    would have a small, intimate wedding and just enjoy the day.
    
    Fortunately I got along with both of my mother-in-laws and part
    of the reason is I never let them get the better of me.  My first
    husband and I paid for our own wedding and laid down the laws. 
    I know my mother-in-law wasn't thrilled about the receiption location
    but tough.  That is all we could afford.  As it turned out everything
    went fine.
    
    My current husband and I had a small wedding at our house and had
    a ball.  I definitely liked the smaller wedding better.  Much more
    intimate and fun.  Both our families were there but I made all the
    arrangements - caterer, flowers, etc. and I actually was complimented
    by my mother-in-law in putting together such a successful wedding.
    
    Better try to get your husband to participate in the friction now
    or else I think you know what your future will be like.
    
    ALso, don't forget, BIGGER is not always BETTER.
    
    Good Luck. 

    How about a do-it-yourself wedding?  I've made wedding dresses for
    both my married daughters and one friend who could never have afforded
    it otherwise.  I also made the cakes and did the flowers by copying
    designs out of flower shops and bakeries.  It's more time consuming
    than costly. It also made the day extra special because everything
    was done with love instead of money--a good start to a "loving 
    relationship."  If you want more information on how-to, send mail.
     One thing to consider--is it worth starting your married life
    frustrated and possibly still in debt from a one day event when
    you could have the fun and memories with a "down home" style wedding?
    
    Best Wishes,
    
    Barb

	
	    When I was married, I had no problems with my in-laws, BUT
	my wife was having all kinds of problems with my step-mother.
	My wife wanted to keep peace in the family so she let her stomp
	on her and didn't tell me about the problems until it just got
	too far.  We confronted my step-mom about this problem and 
	she admitted that she didn't realize that she was causing so
	much problems.  That was almost 10 years and we all get along
	great.
	     I agree with the earlier replies.  The two of you sit down
	with your M-I-L and tell her what you want. It is YOUR day!

	Good luck!
	Dan
	

Step #0 How does your groom feel about all this?

Step #1  Get out of that house!

Step #2  If your mother in law is a pain, stay away from her.  You don't
         need the agravation.  Possibly she thinks you HAVE TO put up with
         her.  Show her different.

Step #3  Have a wedding *you* can afford and enjoy.

Life is difficult enough...  Don't make it any harder then YOU want it to be.

Jim.

    First, get your hands on a copy of _Miss_Manner's_Guide_to_
    _Excruciatingly_Correct_Behavior_.  In this, you will find
    authoritative assurances that the wedding *you* want IS traditional
    and correct.  (Among other things, you can point out that *you*
    invite the guests, not she, even if they are her relatives.)
    
    Clutching this fat, funny book firmly, follow the other good
    advice you've gotten in this note.  ;-)
    
    						Ann B.

	 Slap the woman across the face...  oh I guess that isn't a
	 good idea, eh?  Well, I'm sure you want to, though!

	 
>    	if the wedding is not done by tradition, then it's wrong.  That's
>    	part of the reason she's putting me through hell.

	 does that mean that the way you do it is wrong?  No!  go
	 ahead with your plans!  Hell, My bridesmaids (if I ever get
	 married) are going to wear black!  I'm sure I'll get hell for
	 it, but its MY WEDDING!
	 
>>	She ended up saying that she wasn't going to invite
>>    	any of her friends or relatives.

	 You invite them... Ask around and find out names and
	 addresses and invite them yourself.  Chances are I bet they
	 come, despite her b*tching.
	 
>>	In the middle of the hug, she'll sneer over his 
>>    	shoulder at me.  It's really evil looking.

	 Sneer back!  Don't let her get the best of you!  Fight her
	 with her own medicine!

	 I'd also suggest getting out of the house, too.  You don't
	 need that...so what if your wedding will have to go without
	 something...at least you'll have some peace of mind.  There
	 are many ways to 'cut corners' with weddings.  If you want to
	 know, send me mail.  My sister's wedding cost all of $600 for
	 it all (of course that was 4 years ago, but....)
	 

	 kath

    
    Say the hell with everyone, and ELOPE !  Escape to someplace extremely
    romantic or to a favorite place that you and your fiancee like to go,
    and simply tie the knot...
    
    This may sound boring to some people, but you can make it a very
    special wedding for you and your fiancee - Remember, it is you and your
    fiancee who are getting married, not anyone else !!!
    
    Instead of spending all your hard earned money to please your
    'wonderful'(said with sarcasm) mother-in-law, spend it on yourselves. 
    If you like the Maine seacoast, for instance, rent an elegant/romantic
    room at a resort or an inn.  Sip champagne in the hot top.  Spend a
    little extra money on the wedding night attire - go all out for you. 
    Don't think twice if you want to order filet mignon.   Spend a few days
    or a few weeks away from everyone.  When you come back, you will be
    married without having to go through the hasle of a big wedding.  
    
    Also, and most importantly, you will have enough money to get out of
    HER house and start your own lives together.
    
    One other option is, if she wants the wedding HER way, tell her to PAY
    FOR IT !!!
    
    Good luck...keep us posted...
    
    Ellen

    I'd like to concur with Ann. When Tamzen and I got married, it was
    anything but traditional, but it was all done according to Miss
    Manners. Her book is one of your best defenses and weapons.
    
    As a quick bit of advice, in a *traditional* wedding, it's all done by
    the bride's parents, unless the couple does it themselves (including
    pay for it -- the only way the couple has any control is to pay for
    it). The groom's parents are there to pick up the tab on a dinner or
    two, and that's it. If your future mother-in-law objects, point out
    that it's *traditional* that she does nothing. Tell her that if she'd
    wanted to run a wedding, she should have had a daughter. Tsk.
    
    	Jon

    re .9:
    
    	"One other option is, if she wants the wedding HER way, tell her to PAY
    	FOR IT !!!"
    
    No, *don't* tell her that!!! She's *bound* to take you up on your
    offer! Do *not* give the dear thing an opening like that.
    
    	Jon

    "The Dear Thing" seems quite ill to me, and what's happening regarding
    the wedding is just one expression of her problems.  The way in
    which she is relating to her son and to you is quite unhealthy.
    
    Given that, I doubt that there is anyway to manage, control, or
    appease her.  She is setting out to compete against you for her
    son's affections... the "hugs and sneers" are skirmishes in her
    battle for dominance in his life, and the wedding is one of the
    bigger battles.
    
    I hope he has begun to look at and work out his issues with his
    mother... cuz if he hasn't, your wedding won't be the prelude to
    your dreams... no matter what you do.
    
    I feel for you... you've gotten good advice here, but it will take
    a lot of courage and determination on your part, and his love and
    commitment to get on with your lives together.
    
    There is always some family acting out around the family ritual
    events like weddings and funerals... some of it is just normal human
    stuff... and some of it is pretty toxic.  Please do what you need
    to do to protect and care for yourself and your SO.
    
    IMHO...
    
    R.
    

    Perhaps, you could tell her that if she doesn't behave, she won't
    be invited to the wedding?
                     
    Just a thought.
    
    :-) :-) :-) ;-)
    
    Eugene

    
    < Note 679.8 by SSDEVO::GALLUP "set def [newyork.city]" >

    	"Sneer back!  Don't let her get the best of you!  Fight her
	 with her own medicine!"
    
    I wouldn't suggest doing this in that it will bring you down to
    her level...
    
    re.- .0
    
    My wife and I had a similar problem except it was with my sister
    not my mother. She would berate my wife to my family and compete
    for my affections. Ultimately I was the one who had to resolve the
    situation. It came down to a choice between my wife or my sister.
    I'm still married if thats any indication of my choice. Your future
    husband will have to make that choice, it's something that "should"
    have been settled before the wedding was planned.... I use the term
    'should' loosely because I'm no counseler and I am far from perfect..;')
    One last thing, it sounds to me like his mother has serious emotional
    problems although I wouldn't suggest telling her that....
    
    Brian  'can you say, throw mama from the train, sure, I knew ya
    could' :')
    

RE: -.1

        
    >I wouldn't suggest doing this in that it will bring you down to
    >her level...

    But she could have the satisfaction of THINKING it!  Have a sense of humor,
    will ya?  If you don't have a sense of humor in this kind of situation,
    you'll have a harder time making it through, ya know?

        

    Or she could whip out a small camera, and take a snapshot of
    her mother-in-law-elect just as the snear hits.
    
    						Ann B.

       I'm in the midst of planning my own wedding, which is at the end of
    July.  My mother has alluded to the fact that she would like to have
    both of my parents walk me down the aisle ("There are certain things
    we have to let the hotel know.  For instance, they'll have to leave
    extra space for the aisle if both of us walk you down.")  Then when
    I was visiting them once, a magazine appeared on my dresser, with
    a sentence underlined in red, stating that it is becoming more and more
    popular for both parents to escort the bride.
    
       I really do not want my mother taking part in this part of the
    ceremony.  My wedding is not very traditional - performed by a justice 
    of the peace - but this is one area where I would prefer the
    traditional way of my Dad giving me away.  But I feel as though to tell
    Mom that I don't want her giving me away would be like slapping her
    in the face!  I know it's MY wedding, but should I just acquiesce, or
    should I tell her no?
    
        I considered writing to Dear Abby, and hoping Mom reads the letter, 
    but that's just a little too risky!  :-)
    
    --Sharon                                     
    

    re: walking down the aisle:
    
    Paul was escorted by his mother and her mother (a sweet little old lady
    if there ever weas one, and in those days still able to do a slow hora!
    - not anymore, sad to say); his father attended but not his stepmother,
    which was really unfair to the stepmother (who is a nice lady) but
    which would have caused WWW III among the relatives, and everyone
    understood that only too well.
    
    I was "escorted" by both of my parents, but in fact they actually
    walked one pace behind me - my skirt was so wide that even one
    additional person wouldn't have fit, so they were right behind the
    train.  It wasn't clear until the very day how much my mother was going
    to be able to participate since she had just had back surgery (we had a
    chair hidden in the front of the synagogue in case she needed it, but
    she didn't), but I wanted them both with me if possible. 
    (Unfortuneately, the surgeon absolutely forbid mother to dance at the
    reception... must have been the right thing since she is fine now,
    seven years later.)
    
    So, plan things the way *you* want them; most of the relatives will
    eventually go along with it, and you can probably ignore the protests
    of the others (diplomatically, especially if your new mother-in-law is
    one of them!).  This is easier to do if you and your fiance are paying
    the tab; that's what we did.  Paul's mother insisted on having an open
    bar (most of our friends don't drink, or only drink wine, which we were
    serving anyhow - it was even *good* wine considering that it had to be
    properly kosher; most of our friends do not keep kosher), so she paid
    for that (actually, she paid for the bartenders; the liquor was what
    hadn't been consumed at Paul's sister's wedding a few months earlier -
    she doesn't drink that kind of stuff either, and we didn't want to have
    a bunch of it left for us afterwards - I bet the same bottles reappear
    for Paul's other sister's wedding this April, too...).
    
    Don't lose your sense of humor - weddings are stressful, even when they
    are fun.
    
    /Charlotte

    Honestly, I don't like that custom.  I think it comes from the fact
    that women used to be considered chattel, owned by a man.  Still
    are, some places.  The father was giving control of his chattel
    to the husband.  I think your mother's idea is more loving, depending
    on what the gesture means to her.  Maybe you're thinking, "yes,
    but I want to make that decision."  ???  well, are you really making
    that decision, in either case?  In one case, your mom is giving
    you her desires, and in the other case HISTORY and SOCIETY are giving
    you their "traditional" desires.  
    
    I think you have to go beyond the "I want" and "she wants" arguement
    to the meaning of the tradition and to the reasons for your mom's
    gesture and your reluctance to accept that gesture.
    
    In the case of .0, I would have a simple wedding and live on my
    own money after it.  You know you're going to have a hard time living
    as a member of your husband's parents' household.  You would be
    the most junior member of the pecking order.  In addition, your
    marriage would be open to familial scrutiny.  The wedding is ONE
    DAY.  Living with your in-laws will be MONTHS.   Wouldn't it be
    better to have a wedding marked by love rather than money?  and
    a future without the financial strain of that wedding?
    
    --Louise

    Think about this rationally for a moment. If the reason you are living
    with your future in-laws is to save enough money to pay for a wedding
    celebration that is actually doing nothing but causing you heartache,
    put an end to it. You and your fiance should find your own place
    NOW, have a simple ceremony to your liking, and invite your future
    in-laws along with whomever else you want to celebrate with you. 
    
    In so doing, you will have accomplished some critical things in 
    establishing the importance or your own family unit:
    
    	1. You and your SO take charge of your situation
    
    	2. You make it very clear that no one else should
    
    It's highly unlikely that any parent would miss their son or daughter's
    wedding regardless of how digruntled they may be with the future
    spouse. The lines of respect need to be drawn now....not after the
    ceremony.
    
    Best of luck.........
                                                                  
    
    It worked for me. 

    I agree with .20 and .21 very much.
    
    But I would like to offer something for you to think about.
    
    This woman is your fiance's mother.  He *loves* her, as he *loves*
    you.  And even if he feels that you are not getting a fair treatment
    by her, he is still quite torn between the love he has for you
    both.  And for this reason alone, you both need to be very open and
    honest with each other about how you presently feel, and what you
    intend to do after your marriage when her interference might again
    become a problem.
    
    A wedding purchased at the price of dissent and unhappiness does
    not predict a contented future.  (that sounds like a fortune cookie
    piece, but its true!)  If you can minimize the friction by
    getting out of that house, then *go*.
    
    Frankly, I think you are in for some rough times with that lady.
     And you might find this hard to take, but I suggest that you need
    to look at what you might be doing---consciously or unconsciously---
    to keep this friction at high level.  No one argues alone...
    
    So that you do not think I am pounding on you unfairly, I need to
    tell you that I also had some incredible difficulties before my
    marriage to my husband because of my mother-in-law.   It wasn't
    over a wedding, but that a wedding was taking place---in part---
    because I was pregnant.  *Back when I married, ***nice*** girls
    got pregnant a_f_t_e_r marriage* 
    
    My husband suffered both silently and as tactfully as humanly possible
    for a number of years, trying to keep the peace between us.  Now
    that I am older and wiser, I know that there was much I could have
    done to have lessened the strife.   But I was pig-headed and un-
    willing to bend.
    
    I buried that old woman yesterday was a week ago.  And although
    our relationship was always rocky, and her son was dead over 6 years,
    I was deeply sorry to see her go.
    
    
    Marilyn
    

    Sharon -
    
    By way of compromise you might suggest that your father
    walk you down the aisle but when the officiator asks
    who gives this woman, both parents respond, "We do."
    I did this at my wedding and it would have worked great
    if my father hadn't forgotton and boomed out "I do" at
    the time.
    
    Nanci
    

    re: original question
    You have things in the right persepctive, it sounds like: your
    soon-to-be mother-in-law is being unreasonable, not you!
    
    re: total side issue (what, another rat-hole?)
    In a Jewish wedding, no one "gives away" the bride, anyhow.  So it
    wasn't that Paul was "given away" by my mother-in-law and her mother
    and me by my parents.  They just escorted us to the huppah (marriage
    canopy).  It would have been sort of nonsensical any other way - Paul's
    mother lives a 2-hour drive from us, and his grandmother even
    further, and my folks lived 1500 miles from here - so it wasn't any
    kind of "transferring property" thing for any of them (anyhow, as I
    said, we paid for the wedding, except for the bartenders and booze his
    mother insisted on...).

    it sound to me like your MIL is resentful of you because you are
    a threat to her authority over her pampered son.  
    
    the best advise you have been given is:
    1. separate yourselves from her... you can remain cordial, but you
    must remove yourselves from her home.
    2. DO NOT accede to her desires unless they parallel your own. 
    and even then you must be careful that she knows they are your desires,
    not her own. (don't re-inforce her perception that she can manipulate
    you)
    3. be very sure that you and your fiance' have a clear understanding
    on the role she will play in your lives.... this will be a very
    sensitive issue to discuss, but your future happiness may depend
    a lot on it.
    4. resolve to be strong....do not allow her to control you.  only
    you can be in control of your life.  if you allow her to manipulate
    you now, she will never cease.
    
    good luck
    
    tony	who_finally_achieved_freedom_from_manipulating_family

    i agree that your fiance' does not have to have fallen "near the
    tree"....in my own family there are manipulators...givers...takers,
    the whole gamut of personalities.  i happen to be a giver.
    
    my wife was a manipulator/taker.  and i tried to keep the peace.
    
    for me...the answer was divorce.  i tried other soulutions, but
    none were effective.  i won't say the 25 years were wasted, but,
    i will say that for nearly all that time i did not know happiness.
    
    it is extremely difficult to break out of the habit of allowing
    yourself to be manipulated.  even now, i have to be alert to the
    knowledge that i have the propensity to give in to it.  but, knowing
    this...and taking steps to avoid it, i am now happier than i can
    remember EVER being!  there is a new life ahead of me, and i am
    excited about it!
    
    good luck.
    
    tony	

    For my first husband his MIL was "impossible" - nothing would suffice
    so we gave the wedding ourselves.  Going on to graduate school took
    every cent so we had a SIMPLE service with a best man and a maid
    of honor and the minister.  My present husband has trouble with
    his MIL - we both say "yes" to keep ker at bay and "do our own thing".
    We give in to that extent because of a heart condition that starts
    out manipulative and then she cannot control the consequences. 
    My MIL - I let her completely finish and say I will think about
    it - and just don't do it.  Fortunately (what am I saying) we are
    both in the same boat so we give each other a lot of support in
    this area.
    
    In the years to come you and your fiance will have ups and downs.
    If MIL controls now .... you "ain't seen nothing yet".  I have 2
    siblings who are completely dominated and their spouses could not
    tolerate it and both marriages ended in divorce and neither has
    had a stable relationship since.
    
    NOw is the time to sit down with your fiance and make sure you are
    strong enough to overcome it all. BTW I married my present husband
    at home with a justice of the peace and 2 witnesses.
    
    Good luck.  Keep us posted.
    
    Cathy

    Aw gee, Nicole - I don't think b*tch is the word.
    
    ASSERTIVE, however, IS!!
    
    Pats on the back for ya!
    
    :-)
    
    Carol