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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

644.0. "Is your relationship dull or exciting ?" by GENRAL::WOOLF (Ken Woolf) Wed Dec 21 1988 17:50

	
   The following article is taken from an Earl Nightingale INSIGHT magazine.
	
	"Here`s a real shocker for you: One psychiatrist has estimated that as 
high as 90 percent of all marriages are endured but not particularly enjoyed. 
That`s the sort of indictment that if true, could cause a person to turn in 
his membership card in the human race. Even if that psychiatrist is 50 percent 
correct, its a heck of a thing to contemplate.
	But do you know the reason for the negative reaction on the part of so 
many people toward the highly touted bliss of matrimony? Take a guess. What`s 
causing this dismaying lack of enthusiasm on the part of married couples?
	The answer is that, in about 90 percent of marriages, the interest has 
gone out of them. They have been permitted to grind to a boring halt in the 
interest department.
	We have contests and conventions for salespeople and businesspeople. 
Professional people have their associations and a constant inflow of new 
material on interesting improvements of breakthroughs. Working people have 
baseball of bowling teams and various other kinds of interesting 
get-togethers. But what of marriage? What do the average married people do to 
constantly inject new interest and excitement into their marriages? According 
to the records, they do very little-or nothing about it at all. 
	Let me tell you what one extremely successful married couple I know do 
to keep charm and interest in their marriage. Each of them tries to think of 
ways in which he or she can demonstrate to the other his or her value as a 
partner in marriage. Hardly a week goes by without one or the other sending a 
card-usually a funny card-to the other. He travels quite a bit, and he sends 
her cards from airports all over the country.
	At the beginning of the year, each of them marks off important days on 
the calendar, days they don`t want to forget-birthdays,anniversaries and other 
special occasions. These days never pass without some knid of remembrance. 
They especially celbrate the anniversary of the day they met. And they have 
parties on the children`s birthdays.	
	They plan trips for weeks in advance,which gives each if them 
something to look forward to. Several times each year, they go to a nearby 
resort for a weekend and play golf together and just generally change the 
setting of their marriage. 
	From time to time,each of them gives the other a prize for being a 
good wife or husband. They think of little, sort of inexpensive things to do 
for each other.
	They know that unless they work at making their marriage successful 
and interesting, it will slowly become dull and average. They have made a 
career of having a happy, interesting marriage. And their marriage if as 
interesting now-20 years later-as it was the first year.
	They believe, as I do, that life is dull only to dull people. They 
don`t want to be dull people, and they`re not. Their marriage is high in the 
successful 10 percent. How about yours? What have you done lately to let your 
partner know how much you appreciate him or her? 
	If you find the interest has largly disappeared from your marriage, 
remember that with very little effort on your part, it can be restored. You 
don`t have to talk about it-just start doing something about it."

	The subject of this article may have been discussed before but in case 
it hasn`t, I think it might be helpful for others. Most of us do not pay much 
attention (speaking from the experience of a past 19 year marriage) to our 
relationship until it is too late. If you have things you do that keeps your 
relationship exciting please respond so the rest of us can learn from what you 
are doing.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
644.1A little clrification pleaseRUTLND::GIRARDWed Dec 21 1988 19:136
    Ken, can you clarify.  Marriage or relationship. 
    
    Just that if your going to limited to marriages and the article
    is correct then the responses will be few.  
    
    It might be reverse if talking about anything other than marriages!
644.2Let`s not get too technical.GENRAL::WOOLFKen WoolfThu Dec 22 1988 02:098
    For clarification (marriage or relationship) = a man and a woman living
    together with or without children.  I hope this is enough but if
    it isn`t excuse me cuz I`m new at this and I don`t want to get too
    technical. I mean the above definition could include brother and
    sister relationship but that isn`t what I have in mind. Just some
    feed back on what two people in love who are living together do
    to make their life interesting and exciting.
    
644.3SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCEWFOOFF::LEWIS_BThu Dec 22 1988 08:437
    IN RESPONSE TO  IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP DULL OR EXCITING I HAVE ONLY
    THIS TO SAY,THAT I WAS ONE OF THE NINETY PERCENT,HOWEVER I HAVE
    LEARNED A GREAT DEAL FROM THAT FAILED MARRIAGE AND I KNOW NOW THAT
    IF A MARRIAGE IS GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL THEN BOTH PERSONS INVOLVED
    HAVE TO MAKE THE COMMITTMENT TO KEEP THERE MARRIAGE TO KEEP IT BOTH
    INTERESTING AND EXCITING.   SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE 
                                              ROBERT P LEWIS.
644.4Huh?ELESYS::JASNIEWSKITake it away...Take it away!Thu Dec 22 1988 11:5229
                                                
    	Other appaling "statistics" say that upwards of 90% of all families
    are "dysfunctional" to some degree! Gee, I wonder if this correlates
    well with the 90% figure you quoted...
    
    	I tell ya, I'd hate to have to "demonstrate" *my* worth on a
    continuous or even a periodic basis to ANYONE that wasn't *paying*
    me to do so! That's bullsh*t! That's one of the base factors of
    a dysfunctional family - that One only has "value" if they can
    demonstrate their behavior against a set of objective criteria! 
    The "criteria" might include things like:
    
    	a) "Nice people dont call attention to themselves"
    	b) "God takes offense to what you might be be thinking"
    	c) "No one will like you unless you obey your father"
    	d) "Big boys dont cry"
    	e) "You owe it to us to act like a nice girl tonight"
    	f) "Children may be seen but are not to be heard from" 
                             
    	This, again, is all Bullsh*t! What ever happened to the "inherant"
    value a person has, just because they are a child of God? Or your
    child? Or your Wife? Or your Friend?
    
    	None of my friends "must explicitly demonstrate" their
    friendship to me! I hold them in my mind as "valuable" simply because
    they want to be my friend and are interested in *me*. What more
    can anyone ask for? If I'm "bored" with them, that's *my* problem!!!!
    
    	Joe Jas
644.5UsMEMV03::CROCITTOIt's Jane Bullock Crocitto nowThu Dec 22 1988 12:2146
    What a neat topic!  I recently married, but before that we lived
    together for nearly two years.  Although I feel that we have a pretty
    good time together, I got some great ideas from the couple you
    mentioned--thanks!
    
    We are lucky--we have some separate interests, but we have a few
    in common that we enjoy.  One of them is karate--we are both black
    belts, and work out together in a class at least once a week.  Then
    he comes with me when I teach my own class, and either works out
    under my direction, or helps out.   I also teach self-defense seminars,
    and when I do, he is my "attacker" ;-).  It's a lot of fun, even
    tho it must sound pretty weird.
    
    We also love to travel, and since he loves golf, many of our vacations
    are to golf resorts.  While we are there, he either plays in
    tournaments or for fun, and I go shopping, biking, walking,
    sight-seeing, picture-taking, visiting, boating, etc., etc.  Then
    we get together in the evenings for dinner, dancing, backgammon,
    or miniature golf.  It's a great vacation, because both of us get
    to do the things we like best!
    
    We  tell each other every day that we love and appreciate each other,
    and whenever we have "words", we don't let a lot of time go by to
    apologize.  We also remember little occasions, like the first date
    we had.
    
    It's funny, but one thing that started out being a disadvantage
    has turned to an ADvantage.  A few months ago, he was hit in traffic
    by a 4X4, and although he wasn't hurt, the car was totalled.  In
    all the ensuing red tape, expenses, etc. we haven't gotten
    another car, and are just using the one.  Fortunately our buildings
    are within 5 miles of each other, so logistics wasn't a problem.
    However, it was aggravating at times not to be able to leave when
    he/I wanted to, and all the other situations you can think of. 
    But now, after months of only having one car, we have adjusted to
    the point where we rarely have a location problem.  We also enjoy
    the commute in and out with each other, as it gives us a chance
    to catch up on our days and what's going on.  We can vent, gossip,
    talk, discuss, whatever.  I guess I'll be sorry when we DO get another
    car!!
    
    Sorry for rambling, but I am very happy about our relationship,
    and want it always to continue to grow and change.
    
    Jane
    
644.7Up and down?YES::CLARYOutta control_yThu Dec 22 1988 13:0918
                                                                         _______
enjoy           enjoy            enjoy             enjoy                /
   ^               ^               ^               -----               /
  / \             / \             / \             /     \             /
 /   \           /   \           /   \           /       \           /
/     \         /     \         /     \         /         \         /
-------\-------/-------\-------/-------\-------/-----------\-------/------------
        \     /         \     /         \     /             \     /
         \   /           \   /           \   /               \   /
          \ /             \ /             \ /                 \ /
           v               v               v                   v
        endure          endure          endure              endure



Happy Holidays,
Bob
644.8who do you live for?NOETIC::KOLBEThe dilettante debutanteThu Dec 22 1988 15:1419
       Joe Jas has brought up a point that hit home to me. Do you have
       to be a good little girl or boy or nobody will love you? I spent
       most of my marriage living under that fear. Always trying to be
       what I was "supposed" to be. It didn't work and I felt like a
       failure when no matter what I did it wasn't "good enough" to be
       loved. You lose your sense of self and end up living in fear that
       you will do the wrong thing and not be loved.

       I noticed this same thing in the note on friends. It really
       bothered me when in note after note about what people thought a
       friend was it came out to be someone who was "totally" there for
       you and never acted like a real person with wants and needs for
       their own.

       I think that our expectations of what love and friendship
       "should" be lead to the failure of many relationships. We can't
       always be good little girls and boys without losing ourselves in
       the process. liesl
644.9 I don't buy itRETORT::RONFri Dec 23 1988 18:4434
I find the premise presented in .0 to be far from true, at least in
my particular case (I have known my wife for over 30 years and have
been married to her for almost that long. I --we-- feel that our
marriage is easily within the definition of 'enjoyable',
'fulfilling', 'emotionally enriching', etc., etc., etc..). 

.0 claims that "as high as 90 percent of all marriages are endured
but not particularly enjoyed". It then goes into the story of a
couple who work very hard at their marriage, because "They know that
unless they work at making their marriage successful and
interesting, it will slowly become dull and average. They have made
a career of having a happy, interesting marriage.". And, oh, yes: 
they do not want to be dull people, so they do non-dull things...

Well, I got news for all wretched married people, struggling with
their dull, drab, lives [ :-)]. IT AIN'T NECESSARILY SO. 

First, I find this 90% number a touch suspicious. How was it
derived? How come it's so round? 83.76% would have been a bit more
plausible. How big was the sample used to generate it and how was
'endured' vs. 'enjoyed' measured? 

Assuming the number is valid, I take exception to the idea that "At
the beginning of the year, marking off important days on the
calendar, days they don`t want to forget" can transform a barely
endurable marriage into an enjoyable one. Or that a weekly card can
turn the trick.

Anyone who buys .0's ridiculously simplistic approach to
life, marriage and relationships - be my guest. Me, I do not. 

-- Ron 

644.10I do buy it!AITG::FERGUSONTue Dec 27 1988 04:4618
    I believe .4 missed the point.  The idea is to make your partner in the
    marriage feel valued.  
    
    Responding to .9, I'd guess that making his partner feel valued is part
    of his marriage if it has lasted for 30 years and is enjoyable, etc.
    
    I feel like we are missing the forest cuz we only see the trees.
    The example presented in .0 is the way that one couple accomplished
    making each other feel valued.  Another couple will find another way
    to attain this.
    
    I believe the concept of making your partner feel valued is simple,
    yet powerful concept, that works.  It also works well in relationships
    with children.
    
    John
    
    
644.11Dire Maker?ELESYS::JASNIEWSKITake it away...Take it away!Tue Dec 27 1988 11:2742
    
    	re .10-
    
    "Making" someone else feel valued, or like they have value, can
    be a dangerous thing sometimes. Especially doing so within the
    context of a relationship. You may lead them to a state where they'll
    lose any sense of self-value, and can only feel a sense of purpose
    or "value" within the relationship. That's stacking a lot of weight
    on thin ice; however permanent we like to believe our relationships
    and marriages are, reality shows us that this is typically not so.
    Change can come, and should that happen, someone who's been "getting 
    their value" within the context of a just_changed relationship is 
    now going to have a hard time with it.
    
    Children, on the other hand, can use as much "value making" as you
    would care to give. That's because they're *children* and have not
    yet learned to value their selves highly *despite* what anyone else
    thinks. For children, you build this core belief for them, through
    various demonstrations of your unconditional love; you show them
    that their "value" in your eyes never changes - no matter what life's
    incurred circumstances may be. This is the belief that you'd want a
    child to "internalize" about him or her self - that the self is
    an inherantly good and unconditionally valued "thing".
    
    An adult that needs their value "re-certified" on a daily or weekly
    basis to survive in the game of life likely did not get this need
    met in it's proper time - as a child. It's even very possible that
    the need was well met, but the self belief was later "replaced" with a
    negative one by the child's own mind, simply from observing something 
    that conceptually makes no sense.  One example is to see the end of 
    both parent's love for each other. Another would be to see the end of 
    one of the parent's love of themself - a parent with severe alcoholism 
    or drug abuse problems. Since these things conceptually make no sense 
    to a child, their erronous conclusion is usually that it must be *my* 
    fault, therefore "I am bad" and consequently cannot have value. Should 
    this belief be internalized, the person may search for "someone who gives
    them value" for the rest of their lives if necessary. By giving
    someone their value, or requiring them to demonstrate it, you may be
    supporting a very negative internal self_belief.
    
    	Joe Jas                         
                                                
644.12a lesson learnedDPDMAI::BEANendnode on the ethernet of lifeTue Dec 27 1988 23:0431
   hi...
thought i might as well jump in...since i have an opinion,too!  8*)

i was a partner in a failed marriage that lasted nearly 25 years.  i suspect
we may *never* had had much excitement in the marriage, and neither of us 
realized that or tried to do much about it.  our marriage was one where 
each partner pretty well felt "obligated"...first to each other, then to 
the marriage itself, and finally to the children.  at long last the marriage
ended (this year) and i think we are both on the way to better lives.  at least
i know that *i* am.

now, the next time around for me will be different.  i see the value in an
added effort to the relationship...on the part of both participants.  i fully
expect that the examples that the marriage referred to in .0 will also be in
my next one.  it takes so little effort to please another...to add a little
surprise here and there.  a card, a note.  even a flower.  (few things please
me more than a flower from a woman...that says a lot to me).

one of the previous replies suggested a degree of hostility towards the notion
of "proving worth"... i think the author intended to tell us that his friends
showed each other (by little acts of love and respect) the value the "other" 
partner has to "self"...  not the value of "self".  i have found it is very
easy...to speak through our actions... to convey to the "other" partner in the
relationship..just how much "they" are valued by me!  and it pleases "me" to
be able to do so.  a win-win situation.

so, onward to the next marriage and life long (not so big) effort of showing 
my love through daily actions.

tony
644.13 CIVIC::JOHNSTON14 steps to enlightenmentWed Dec 28 1988 19:2139
    to set the context:
    	Rick & I have been together since 1973, married since 1974
    	we have no children
    
    Things we do that are 'sacred' to us:
    
   	"do" Breakfast at Wimbeldon - champagne, croissants, strawberries
    & cream, fresh orange juice - on US TV - someplace different every year
    - one year we had just completed a rennovations upstairs so we just
    stayed home un-plugged the phones and bought bed-trays
    
    	Moet & Chicken McNuggets when one of us does something major
    at work [raise, promotion, release, ...]
    
    	Doing our own photo-portraits, thank you very much, with the
    assistance of tripod & timer
    
   	His February camp-out in Vermont.
    
    	My September assault on Mt.Jefferson [just scrambling]
    
    
    OK, so much for 'what is it you do...'
    
    We both have many and varied interests which do not include the
    other.  Which is not to say that the other wouldn't be a welcome
    addition in most of these cases.
    
    At the bottom of it all, I don't agree that one must "Work" at
    relationships to keep them vital, but rather invest in them.  To
    many this may seem a semantic difference, but to me it is much more.
    The little things that we do are work, anyway.
    
    While it may sound trite, vital people make for vital relationships
    
      Ann
    
        
   
644.14Sounds so simple typed out...%^>SUPER::REGNELLSmile!--Payback is a MOTHER!Thu Dec 29 1988 13:3621
         When he speaks, I *listen*.
         
         When I speak, he *listens*.
         
         We accept the things we do not like in each other
         as just as much a part of what makes each of us special
         as the things we like.
         
         We are gentle with each others terror.
         
         We giggle with each other...and cry.
         
         For 16+ years we have *worked* to make it work...
         Anything worthwhile having is worth working for.
         
         And probably most important....we still laugh at
         ourselves....
         
         Mel
         
644.15A vote for enjoyment.COORS::REINBOLDThe god I believe in isn't short of cash, Mister!Thu Jan 05 1989 01:1657
    Wow!  .0 makes so much sense to me - I have no trouble understanding
    it in a positive light at all!
    
    I was married for 8 years.  We didn't do much together.  The
    relationship became dull.  I grew; he didn't.  I left him behind.
    Afterward, I learned to *enjoy* life - it can really be fun!  I
    learned to pursue my interests, and get soooo much enjoyment from
    continually learning new things, finding new hobbies and interests,
    and growing.  I wanted to share this attitude with someone I could
    continue to grow with - someone who feels there's more to life
    than TV and having a beer with friends.  I think I've found him.
    We try to get away together once a month for a weekend vacation.
    The time alone together is great; it revitalizes the relationship,
    and helps maintain the feelings that we enjoy being together.  We
    give each other flowers and cards and listen when the other is
    feeling down.  We give one another support in whatever we do.  We
    go out on "dates" once in a while.  
    
    re .8  Liesl, I don't feel that I have to try to be "good."  This
    is a mutually enriching relationship.  I like him just the way he
    is, and he must like me, too; he accepts me the way I am.  We don't
    have to try to be something for one another; we're just natural.
    It's not right if you can't be yourself.  But part of all that is
    being courteous to one another, too.  Sure, sometimes that takes
    a little thought and a little effort, but it's mutual and it's
    mutually appreciated, and I think it comes naturally because we
    really care about one another, and we enjoy each other, and want
    to make each other happy.  There's not much "trying" involved.
    And there's not a feeling that we have to be "good."  That must
    have been quite a strain for you!
    
    re .9  Ron, it's not *what* you do, it's the attitude that makes
    you want to do those things.  You could force yourselves to do
    those things, and still have a crummy, unenjoyable relationship.
    It's the attitude that you enjoy one another, and want to have
    fun together.  Not stagnate together in front of the boob-tube.
    It's enjoying life together, and growing together.  But it's the
    attitude that results in the actions, not just the doing.  It's
    not so much "*making* someone feel valued" as simply living in a
    way that shows them you care.  And that has to be mutual - it's
    a shared attitude, and a shared enjoyment of life and the relationship.
    It's shared feelings.
    
    re .12  Tony, I agree with what you said (but now I don't remember
    it all).
    
    I think it comes down to the relationship having a vitality of its
    own.  You maintain your individuality, but the vitality in the
    relationship enhances you both, and you share yourselves freely
    with one another.  
    
    If you haven't experienced it yourself, stop
    telling yourself it doesn't exist, or that you don't deserve it,
    or that you can't find the right person.  It's there for everyone
    who is open to it, and it's great!
    
    Paula
644.16RETORT::RONThu Jan 05 1989 18:5913
    
>    re .9  Ron, it's not *what* you do, it's the attitude that makes
>    you want to do those things......

Thanks to COORS::REINBOLD, who in a dozen lines, in .15, managed to 
say what I was trying to say in 34 lines, only better.

My argument was that the mechanical motions of sending cards, 
remembering dates, etc. are useless if the people involved have not 
been growing together or have not developed the 'right' attitude.

-- Ron

644.17SHARE SOME IDEAS...YUPPY::DAVIESAIndependant OperatorFri Jan 06 1989 11:2316
    
    Re: .16
    
    Agree with you....
    
    ....and to lead on from that, if your attitude is "right", how many
    different ways can you think of to show it?
    Cards, flowers, weekends away and/or changing the setting have been
    mentioned several times.......any more ideas?
    
    I work at keeping my relationship alive using the above, but although
    the feeling is there I could always use some ideas for new ways of
    expressing it.....                  
    
    Abigail
    
644.18RETORT::RONFri Jan 06 1989 16:4019
RE: .17

>    ....and to lead on from that, if your attitude is "right", how many
>    different ways can you think of to show it?

My point was that (at least, for me) zero is the right number. We do
not need ANY way to display our attitude. It's inside our heads and
hearts. When and if it goes bad (it's happened...), we know about it 
right then and there and fix it with a lot more than a small gift or 
a card.

If you need "Cards, flowers, weekends away and/or changing the
setting" and you wish to "work at keeping [the] relationship alive",
that's what works for you and I am not knocking it. I was simply
articulating a different point of view.

-- Ron

644.19LoveANT::MPCMAILFri Jan 06 1989 18:3819
    Relatinships are never easy and there are as many ways to ENHANCE your
    relationship with the siginifant other(so), as there are people
    in this world. What works for one couple may not work for another.
      Like Others in this note I am also divorced, after a 7 month
    relationship. Before we were married our counslor said to us, find
    little ways to show your enjoyment. If your partner does something
    that nice say so, don't be afraid to say "you look nice", or to
    compliment the person if YOU really feel like it. But whatever you
    do be as honest as possiable without hurting your spouse/partner's
    feelings. Be considerate, if they are having a hard day, do what
    you can, but don't make waves unless it's urgent and can't wait.
        Above all treat that person like you wanted to be treated.
    and if you can find fun little things to do go ahead, remember it's
    okay to laugh together. and remember you and he/she came first before
    the kids.
        If you find something that works don't fix it. if it doesn't
    work then be patient and fix it.
    
                           Lise'
644.20just a questionFDCV01::RSWRKFri Jan 06 1989 23:2511
    So, what happens when what used to work doesn't anymore?? What happens
    when you've got kids and 2 jobs to worry about (between you) and
    the weekends away (not to mention private time at home) become less
    and less available. What happens when the person who used to be
    your best friend, as well as your spouse, turns into a person who
    only wants to be with you when you are smiling and having a good
    time; only wants to be with you when you want to do the things he
    wants to do - when he wants to do them??
    
    What magic potion do you try then?????????????????
    
644.21Sounds like he needs to grow up!CSC32::REINBOLDMon Jan 09 1989 16:287
    re .20
    
    1)  Slip him a magic maturing potion 
    
    2)  Get counseling
    
    Paula
644.22GLORY::APPLEGATEDon't try this at homeWed Jan 11 1989 17:4523
    re: 20
    I, too, am involved in a relationship which consists of 2 kids (3
    and 1), two jobs (both well over 40 hours/week), a dog, a cat, night
    school (for me),babysitter hassles, in-law hassles, home repair
    hassles, etc, etc.   Is my relationship dull?? no.  It's not
    particularly romantic either, but we still RESPECT each other and
    try to accomodate the other person without smothering our individual
    needs.
    
    My feeling is that once your life becomes complicated, the romantic
    dinners, long weekends away, and the like are too much stress to
    try to fit in.  My wife and I both love to backpack for instance.
     However, that has been shelved for the time being because we want
    to spend more time with our kids.  Another example, we had reservations
    at a very nice restaurant for many months.  The day of the dinner,
    our daughter fell and got a nasty cut.  Goodbye dinner, hello emergency
    room.  
    
    My point is that the little things that you do for each other are
    just that.  Little things.  The important things are the big things.
    My marriage is great and maybe some day will look like a VISA
    commercial, but for now I am content strugglin' to survive and maybe
    have some laughs along the way.
644.23LIFE IS A LESSON !GENRAL::WOOLFKen WoolfWed Jan 11 1989 21:1648
	Well, seems like it is about time I jumped in here again. Since I 
started this note, I would like to make a few comments.
	The reason I started the note was to get a few ideas about what other 
people do to keep their relationship alive. I was married for 19 years and 
have five children. I resolved to do things in my next relationship that would 
keep the romance and excitment in it. When I read what Nighingale had to say I 
agreed with him totally. I even think it is his marriage that he is talking 
about. Any way I just wanted to get some ideas about what others do. 
	Some of you had some good things to say and I will incorporate those 
in my next marriage. Others, IMHO I thought were quite defensive about what 
they were doing in their relationship. My thought was,I wonder if their SO  
would agree. And if that is what works for you, go for it.
	In my examination of the responses, I did not find one response from a 
person who had experienced a failed marriage that didn`t go along with the 
information in .0. Maybe a lesson to be learned form those who have the 
experience. Who knows ?
	The value of a person was also discussed and I would just like to add 
that if one or the other person in a relationship loses their value, then the 
relationship is not a wholesome one. An excellent book on this subject is "Do 
I have to give up me to be loved by you" by Margret and Jordan Paul. I don`t 
think that .0 suggested in any way that you have to lose your value to 
demonstrate your worth. And if you find yourself doing things for another 
person with a resentful attitude or feel you are losing value, I would 
suggested you have a talk with yourself or maybe your SO or maybe a therapist.
	I feel that we all want to know that we are valued no matter how old 
we are or what we have ben through. Some of us will feel this through a gift, 
others by being told, some by being touched, etc. Just my opinion, maybe some 
of you know someone out their that doesn`t want any of this. That`s ok if that 
is what they want.
	All in all, after going thru the break up of a marriage I have become 
very honest with myself. When I am feeling unloved or distant, I am going to 
have a talk with myself, or with my SO or if necessary a therapist. Honesty, 
showing emotion, cards, little surprises, big surprises, special times, 
planned vacations, gifts,etc will all be part of my next relationship.
And, probably the most important thing in a relationship, is when I am talking 
with my SO I plan to *LISTEN*.
As you can expect with 5 children, I had a lot of priorities in life other 
than the relationship. It will never happen again, at least not on my part. 
We all started out being in love with the person we married. We wanted to be 
together and share our life. The focal point I would think ought to be the 
relationship. Issues will always come up. The issues should never get in the 
way of the relationship. IMHO.
	
	This note was started, for the purpose of giving others ideas on how 
to keep their relationship exciting. I would like to keep the replys centered 
around that idea.

	--Ken--
644.24I second the "listen"!LITE::REINBOLDFri Jan 13 1989 18:1521
	Talk and Listen.
    
    When listening, hear the feelings behind the words, as well as the
    words.
    
    Don't keep quiet forever, just to keep the peace.  If something
    bothers you, it'll come out sooner or later in one way or another,
    even if rationally it seems trivial.  Bring it up at an appropriate
    time, in a non-threatening manner.
    
    If you have a non-spouse related problem, and you feel like dealing
    with it alone, and want to be left alone, think for a moment of
    your spouse.  In the middle of all your turmoil, *he/she* may need
    a hug.  (And maybe you needed one, too, but were too wrapped up
    in your thoughts to realize it.)
    
    I, too, am looking for ideas, and learning from experience.
    
    Ken, I sure agree with your "LISTEN!"
    
    Paula
644.25a purpose bigger than either or both of you...ZONULE::WEBBbetter than I ever didWed Jan 18 1989 20:019
    ... just my two cents...
    
    I think that having some common purpose outside of the relationship
    -- e.g. involvement in community, or some such -- can be a major
    source of vitality....  I know it's going to be something I look
    for in my next time around....
    
    R.
    
644.26If it feels good...BRADOR::HATASHITAThu Feb 16 1989 20:5663
    On the practical level, every suggestion for injecting life into
    a relationship that I've read here seems to make sense.
    
    Think about something for a few minutes;
    
    What is it that makes humans feel good?  What is it that makes humans
    feel bad?
    
    Under the "feels good" list I'd place:
    
    	-Contact
    	-Acceptance
    	-Respect
    	-Passion
    	-Freedom
    	-Variety
    	-Security
    
    
    Under the "feels bad" list I'd place:
    
    	-Rejection
    	-Isolation
    	-Insecurity
    	-Fear
    
    Your lists will vary, no doubt.  But that which will make a
    relationship exciting will usually fall under the "feels good" list.
    
    Our attitudes shape our lives.  There is much power in an attitude.
    If two people maintain an attitude which incorporates their own
    "feels good" list, I think that that would provide a basis for
    something of benefit.
    
    Now, as far as excitement goes:
    
    To me an exciting relationship is an exercise in contrast.  It is a
    stable, calm and safe place filled with torrents of the passionate and
    the erotic and the mysterious and the sensual and the slightly
    dangerous.  It is secure but the security is a dynamic moving target.
    It is black and white in its commitment but a spectrum of colours in
    its variety.  It is a quite talk in subdued whispers and a heated
    debate in raised voice.  It changes every day but remains the same in
    its desire for change.
    
    An exciting relationship is childlike in its acceptance of wonder and
    new ideas and mature in its acceptance of responsibility.  It finds
    something new to play with every 30 minutes but respects the sanctity
    of its own being all the time.  It is happy with being content but
    not content with just being happy.  It grows like a vine and remains
    as unmoving like a mountain.
    
    I have never been married ("Never made the same mistake once"),
    so you might be tempted to view this opinion like you'd view the
    warning on cigarettes knowing that the Surgeon General has a three-pack-
    a-day habit.
    
    But I have had opportunity to observe exciting and dull relationships
    up close.  And this is what I've seen.
    
    Kris