Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Tough subject. I am recently seperated and soon to be divorced.  It wasn't by
my choice but it's reality and I have to deal with it.  I can say that I was
the one who was devistated and wanted to work things out way back when it
happened but now, I am a stronger person for it and I"m actually glad it
happened.  I don't know much about men and how it effects them as I try not to
talk to or see my ex at all.  I haven't been exposed much to too many divorced
men but the ones I have been exposed to (who I've become friends with) seem to
be taking (or took) the seperation quite as bad as I did and in some cases
even worse.  Men (this is only my opinion) do not show their feelings as
easily and as often as we women but they do hurt as badly - they just react
differently.  Women tend to be able to show their emotions that they feel from
their heart, men (from my observation) don't show their emotions but still
feel all the pain that we women do.   I think that in every case I've talked
to that everyone seems to loose their self-estime and if men (which I do not
know) go out and have a sexual encounter right away, it may be to let them
know that they are still attractive and still have the right stuff.  Women I
think (in my circumstances) tend to "stay away" or remain shy of a sexual
encounter right away because I think they are too hurt from the initial
seperation and afraid of "getting hurt" right away again.  Do women heal
quicker?  Hard to say - I've healed amazingly fast and I had an 12 year
relationship but when one is stabbed so many times in the back a person (woman
or man) can and will only take so much - it makes it easier to "fall out of
love" with the person doing the stabbing.  Some men do talk about their
breakups however I have noticed that most of them don't want a relationship
with anyone - I think (again just observing here guys) that they were too hurt
and are afraid of the same thing we are so YES I'd say there are scars for
future relationships just like us women.  I think the "usual routine" is
affected by both men and women.  Ending a relationship no matter how long it
was or how loving it was always hurts both men and women unless one of the two
is totally an uncareing individual.  It may not effect one or the other right
away but it will eventually and both people will shed tears.  Again, this is
only my observation and opinion so I hope no one takes offense. 

/c

    Purely speculating as to how men feel, I think a breakup may well
    threaten their ideas of manhood.  I think they may actually take
    things harder in some ways, so to remain looking strong, they bury
    their feelings deeper.  I agree with Colleen that they may "jump
    into bed" with another woman to prove that they still really are
    men.  Yet, because their wounds go deep, they do shy away from
    permanent relationships while still hoping to find one, leaving
    them both questioning and questing at the same time. 
    
    As a woman, I find that while being devastated, life goes on.  I
    talk it out because it helps me to work it out.  I'm NOT prone to
    "bed hop" because I am the one who could end up getting hurt (i.e.
    pregnant, or emotionally devastated) since "making love" is more
    than just sex.  I need to have "feelings" for the man I go to bed
    with--it has to "mean" something to me.  I too question, but if
    I think the relationship will work, I am willing to at least give
    it a try because I like being in a relationship.
    
    I'm interested in what others have to say on this issue.  Any more
    comments?
    
    Barb

After a breakup, I am not interested in anyone for a while and hurt
very deeply so my experience as a man has not been as .0 suggests.  I
do talk about it to with friends whom I feel close to.

john

    My experiences are quite a bit different from yours.
    
    > It's safe to say that both parties are suffering emotionally, but the 
    > man seems to handle it better.  Basic differences are:

    Your examples are so far from my experience that I felt like I must
    be another species or something.  "has sexual encounters frequently"
    is never true (for me), and especially not after an emotionally 
    traumatic breakup (3 in the last 10 years).  I just don't function 
    that way.
    
    > ...I think these are standard differences found in most breakups.  
         
    Again, I don't recognize this as "standard" at all (your mileage
    may vary!  I'm not challenging your feelings, but I don't see it
    the way you do either).  
    
    > How does the fact that they can immediately take part in sex with 
    > someone else reflect on their ex-partner?  Does it show a lack of 
    > respect and/or caring?
  
    Lets get something straight first: a person's actions reflect on 
    themselves, not on their ex's.  Thats what personal responsibility 
    is all about.  
    
    I will reverse the question and tell you why I *don't* immediately 
    engage in casual sex on the rebound, though.  Its because casual sex 
    has damn little attraction for me.  I've been *in love* and making 
    love with your loved one far outshines a casual encounter.  I flipped 
    the first time I heard the song "Romeo and Juliet" by Dire Straights, 
    when Mark Knopfler sang the line, "when we made love, you used to
    cry", because I know firsthand the intensity of that experience.  
    After that, for me, why bother with casual sex?  It holds no
    attraction.  This is not a putdown of anybody else, I'm just sharing 
    my personal take on it.
    
    > Why don't men talk about their breakups?  Are they refusing to feel
    > their emotions, therefore staying in control of the situation? 
    > Can denial cause emotional scars in future relationships.
    
    Thats probably a good description, but I'd apply it to anybody who
    fails to learn from their mistakes, and internalizes it all; women
    make that mistake, too.  Our society doesn't permit men the space
    to show their emotions, and thats also part of it.  But your
    conclusion, about emotional scarring, is right on the mark.  I'm
    honest enough with myself to try to work out my scars, and talking
    to friends is part of it.  "Refusing to feel one's emotions" and
    "staying in control" are the road to a barren emotional landscape.
    Its a bleak place to live, and I'm trying to leave it behind.
    
    DougO

    	RE: .0
    
    	Your evaluation of the gender-specific differences in
    	the way people handle breakups is vastly different from
    	my experience, too.
    
    	I've known men and women that could fit either one of
    	your scenerios (as well as plenty who had their feet
    	planted firmly on parts of *both* lists.)
    
    	It might be interesting to know why some people keep their
    	pain to themselves, but if you ask 'Why do men do it and
    	women don't,' I don't think it's possible to categorize
    	the behavior of men and women into distinctly separate
    	lists that way.
    
    	If you've seen only one distinct pattern of behavior in
    	the people with whom you have been romatically involved,
    	perhaps it's because you tend to seek out partners with
    	certain distinct manners of behavior.
    
    	Other people (with different tastes in partners) will tend
    	to see other sorts of patterns (which may or may not appear
    	to be as tied to gender as your experiences have been.)

    Re: .4
    
    Doug, I couldn't have said it better myself.  Your sentiments echo
    mine exactly.
    
    				Steve

    RE: .0
    
    I disagree...  I know of one man in my department that separated,
    and he could not function for months...  it was awful attempting
    to do our job and his too... 
    
    I think when you generalize, you fall into a trap... all people
    are different, and react differently...  Some men are stronger than
    women, some women are stronger than men...
    
    Each person goes through their own "working through it"...
    what-ever-that-may-be...

    RE: .0 (S_Smith) I think this is an excellent topic to get out in
    the open, and thank you for bringing it up.  I hope things are going
    well for you.
    
    Frm my own perspective, and from my observations with the Over-35
    crowd, I believe that there ARE some generalizations that can be
    made.  But the problem with generalizations is that they are not
    specific (obviously), and cannot speak for everyone.
    
    I believe that many woman have been brought up to believe that they
    are defined by their relationships with other people.  They "should
    be" wives, mothers, etc.  This is a very unfortunate belief (which
    is not to in any way diminish these very important roles).  But
    a woman is a Person, with many dimensions to her personality and
    her life.  But because of this cultural belief, a woman is made
    "less than whole" when her relationship/marriage ends, or when the
    children "leave the nest."
    
    A man, on the other hand, is defined by things like career, sports
    participation, outside interests, etc. as well as in his role as
    a Father, husband, lover.  So less of his life is disrupted when
    his marriage/relationship ends.  The way a man deals with this loss
    is quite different, also.  Men are taught to hide sorrow, sadness,
    as signs of "weakness."  Much of the loss he feels (and he DOES
    feel it!) is hidden.  As far as sex is concerned, he can more easily
    get into a sexual situation (not necessarily "Frequent Sexual
    Encounters," but light relationships).
    
    Again, speaking for myself, I was pretty devastated by the loss
    of a SO after a very short, but intense, relationship.  My way of
    countering it was to immediately go out and date and get involved
    with a series of women for whom I couldn't develop deep feelings.
    This was not a conscious thing, but through a lot of self-analysis,
    I realized that this was happening.  I was not doing this to in
    any way diminish what I felt for the woman whose love I had lost,
    but simply as a means of self-protection.
                               
    Regarding sex, I believe that men have a stronger physical need
    than do women.  This is why we tend to desire sex in a relationship
    before our woman partner.  Also, women have been brought up to believe
    that they Should be in love with whoever they have sex with.  For
    that reason, I believe that when they DO get sexually involved in
    a new relationship, they "try to fall in love" with the person,
    in order to "justify" the sex.
    
    I hope this response help you see another possible side.  I'm sure
    that many people disagree with my assumptions, but this is how I
    see it.
    
    Jack                   

    The people whom I've known who have been hardest hit by a breakup
    were men.  I've also known those as described in .0... "more fish
    in the ocean".  Women I've known generally get it all out and move
    on.  We are a fairly vocal group while getting it all out, agreed.
    
    Marge
    
    

    
    RE.4
    i disagree with your point about conduct only reflecting on the
    particular individual.  People should take responsibility for
    their actions, but unless you live in an isolation tank, others
    are always influencing your behaviour, and i should think if an
    individual is in an intimate relationship with someone then that
    someone is most likely going to have more influence than most
    others.  This not a way to excuse a person's conduct, we are at
    all times responsible for our actions, but it is important in
    understanding a person's conduct.
    
    About men "bed hopping" after a break up, well they way i see
    it (speaking generally - and probably getting into trouble),
    its the way the system is set up.  Women can have sex anytime they
    choose and men have to try and get the women into bed.
    Women can proposition a man and are generally going to be 
    successful.  A man could approach a hundred women with the same
    proposition and spend the whole night being slapped.
    so, i'd say, perhaps women aren't as likely to jump into bed
    right away because they know they can always have sex if they
    want, where as men know that they have to go out and work on
    it.
    I know this is a broad generalization, but i'd say its in keeping
    with the generalizations in the base note.
    
    

    Re: .10
    
    > I know this is a broad generalization,
                       ^^^^^                
    
    Quite an adjective, when talking about women in this context. :-)
    
      Alan

    
    Alan
    
    *thanks* for the spotlight on my poor wording. :-)
    
    Bob
    

       I believe there is SOME truth in the statement that men may go
       out and have (or try to have) numerous sexual encounters after a
       breakup. I believe women are less likely to do this because (by
       virtue of anatomy) sex is a much more invasive process. The woman
       must accept the man into her body to become part of her. At a
       time when you are feeling hurt and closed it is hard to open up
       and risk yourself again. I find the thought of doing this with
       someone I was not very fond of distasteful (if not impossible).

       For a man sex is exterior to himself (again somewhat by virtue of
       anatomy). He may use it as a means of trying to prove he is
       "still a man" regardless of how little it may prove in this
       case. Obviously, I'm generalising, as have we all, and the set of
       "normal" behavior for men and women overlaps as does the set of
       "abnormal" behavior. I think that at the time of an emotional
       breakup most of us are in a period of somewhat abnormal behavior
       as it relates to what our life was like before things crumbled
       before our eyes. liesl

    re .13
    
    Temporary affairs "matter", because it involves 2 people.  If it
    is understood that it is just temporary by _both_ individuals, fine.
    If there is a gap in communication and a difference in expectations,
    then one person is going to get hurt.  
    
    It's easy to be logical and analytical about the situation, until
    the emotions kick in and you're swept up by the moment...only to
    kick yourself afterwards for not seeing the writing on the wall.
    
    No...temporary affairs tend to do more harm then good.  There is
    much pain to work through after a split, but to do it "through"
    another person only displaces the pain, and it will boomerang back
    at you faster than you realize.  Let the healing occur within, rather
    than looking to another for a solution.  (Sort of like putting a
    leg in a cast...some injuries heal faster than others...go carefully
    until you're on solid ground.)
    
    Writing is a good catharsis...you can keep your thoughts private,
    or show them to others, as you choose.  And you can also look back
    on your thoughts.
    
    Judi
    

    Re .10, I don't understand what you mean by "Women can have sex
    anytime they choose"  Talk about a sweeping generalization!!!  Do
    you honestly believe that *any* woman can have sex whenever she
    wants to??  I have never felt that I could.  I'm not an ugly woman
    but I've never felt that there wasn't a man out there who wouldn't
    hop into bed with me given the opportunity!  It's silly to think
    that way!  Sure, maybe I could find *somebody* at any given time
    but I shudder to think who it might be!!!  Sure, at any given time
    there might be *some man* - some horrible looking, perverted creep
    - who would be willing to have sex with me.  But, do I feel that
    just because I am a woman that any man whom *I would be interested
    in* would be willing to have sex with me at any given moment?  No!
     He might be happily involved with someone else in a monogamous
    relationship, he might not find me attractive, he might be afraid
    I'd be looking for more than he had to offer, he might be afraid
    of some of the radical views I've written in notesfiles :-) - he
    might think I was too old, who *knows*!  But, I can't understand
    why some men think that women can always find somebody to have sex
    with.  As has been discussed previously in some notesfile somewhere
    (forgot which one or when) men say No, too, so I don't think it's
    necessarily any easier for women to find *desirable* sex partners
    than it is for men.  The key word is *desirable*.
    
    Re .8, I agree with some things you had to say, and disagree strongly
    with one other.
    
    First, I agree that in the past women have been more defined by
    relationships than men.  In the past, men were brought up to be
    defined more by jobs, sports, hobbies, interests, etc.  Women were
    taught that the most important aspect of life was falling in love,
    getting married, and having babies.  Therefore, I think that in
    the over 35 crowd, women, in general, often do seem to have a harder
    time dealing with the end of a relationship because they were taught
    that having a successful, long term relationship was the most important
    part of life.  A man, in this age group, might be more likely to
    fall apart if he lost his job, or lost all of his money, since men
    were taught to measure themselves by this type of success.
    
    Re .8, I do not believe that men have a stronger physical need for
    sex than women, in general.  Baloney!  That was the excuse for the
    old double standard - men can't help themselves!  Huh!  This is
    almost 1989 where most of us hopefully realize that while most men
    and women do have a physical need for sex, we also realize that
    *both* men and women can control their little urges, too. :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    RE.16
    Yes, the key word is desirable.  i meant just the desire for
    sex, i didn't mean the desire to have sex with any particular
    person.
    i thought my example was pretty good.
    You really think a man going around propositioning women is
    going to have just as much luck as a woman doing the same thing?
    (these are generic people with generic appearances -- i know
    that in specific cases it wouldn't hold true)
    
    "Sure, maybe i could find *somebody* at any given time"
    isn't this agreeing with what i said??
    
    (i'm not sure if you were angry or not, but i'm just throwing
    out what i think --- it'll probably change tommorow)
    
    Bob
    

    re .10, Bob-
    
    > i disagree with your point about conduct only reflecting on the
    > particular individual...
    
    The question I was answering said something like: How does it reflect
    on the ex-partner if one immediately goes out screwing around? 
    My point holds in general, one's conduct reflects only upon themselves
    (and the responsibility they bear for their own actions), but
    *especially* in the specific case I was addressing: conduct of 
    one's own intimate affairs.
    
    > This not a way to excuse a person's conduct, we are at all times 
    > responsible for our actions,[...]
                                   
    Oh, you agree?  I'm teasing you just a bit, Bob, but I see your two
    statements as contradictory.  But (oooh!) this next paragraph...
    
    > Women can have sex anytime they choose and men have to try and get 
    > the women into bed.
    
    No, we don't.  Many of us don't try that.  That's buying into and
    endorsing all of the old stereotypes and cultural conditioning that
    have screwed up and alienated us within this culture in the first
    place.  Many of us, men and women, reject this game.  Bed is *not*
    the goal, though its a nice place to visit eventually.
            
    re .14, Liesl-
    
    I won't presume to comment on your feeling that sex is invasive
    for a woman, if thats the way you view it I wouldn't dream of
    contradicting you.  But when you extended your feeling to this...
    
    > For a man sex is exterior to himself (again somewhat by virtue of
    > anatomy). He may use it as a means of trying to prove he is
    > "still a man" regardless of how little it may prove in this case.
    
    you have crossed into the realm of opinion and I will inform you
    that as a man I do not in any way feel that my sexuality is exterior
    (read "separable", "detached", or "alienable") to my identity, to
    my humanity, to my personhood.
    
    It may be true for some men but certainly not for all, as implied
    by your first sentance (of this extract).  Perhaps you didn't intend
    for me to take the statement so strongly but, its hard enough for
    men within this culture to get in touch with their feelings: being
    told that a very core part of our identity is "exterior" to us is
    a psychological castration perhaps more obvious to me than to you.
    
    DougO

    It took me about a year before I was interested in dating again
    and even now 3 years later I find myself using "protection tactics"
    in relationships that I never used before. I had lots of supportive
    friends and talked out every detail it dident make it that much
    easier. Sex I forgot what it was during the first year of divorce.
    
    I believe the list of men's reactions and womens reactions were
    from a womans view point no problems because I as a man remember
    thinking the exact things but it was a mans view with much the same
    content. I guess I wanted/hoped she felt worse than I did...
    
    It hurts like hell on both sides it's just that one side usually
    displays or hides it better than the other.
    
    just my $0.02, -j
    

    Re: Protection Tactics....
    
    You've got that right...  Even after 4 years, I have more of them
    than Carter probably has liver pills...
    
    I don't think anyone will ever be able to break through all of them...    

    
    Re.19
    wanted to say, that my statement about women can have sex 
    whenever they want and men have to work on it is not an
    endorsement of this, it is just a viewpoint.
    i see it as if i had said, "people are starving in Ethiopia"
    and someone comes back and says i'm endorsing people starving
    in Ethiopia.
    
    

    Forgive me for asking this question but there is something bugging
    me...
    
    If the men are having casual sex after a split more than women,
    then who with?  Some logic tells me that it take two to tango.
    
    Or would one answer require the conversation to be moved to another
    restricted file...
    
    ...maybe its better not to apply logic when dealing with stereotyping...

    RE: .23
    
    Forgetting the logistics problems, these men could all be having
    sex with the *same* woman.  (She could be the [happiest, most
    exhausted, richest, *insert other adjectives*] woman in the World!
    ;^)
    
    But there could easily be a smaller group of woman, each of whom
    having sex with a greater number of men.  No mathematical/logical
    problem!
    
    Hope that answers your question.  (Now, for a fee, I'll provide
    you with the name of the woman in Paragraph 1!  ;'}
    
    Jack
    

    Thanks Jack,
    
    But I don't see a lot of exhausted.*  women around... More likely
    the probability men and women are really much more alike than
    .0 supposes.  The difference being that one sex is more open about
    than the other.
    
    

    Re: .25
    
    That makes the most sense to me.
    
    						Hank

    Re .23, I think men and women have both always lied as to how often
    they've had casual sex.  Men (except those who write in Digital
    notesfiles - ha-ha- because I've never seen a guy in a DEC file
    admit to casual sex) usually claim to have more sex than they actually
    have, and women (wanting to keep a good rep in the old double standard
    tradition) usually claim less than they've actually had.  In reality
    they've both done the same amount of screwing around! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Just to make things feel better.  Casual can mean happening by
    chance...
    
    Now THAT is more interesting than superficial!
    
    Uh ooh I think this may pull this notesfile back to its predecessor...
    But wasn't that more fun?

I separated from my wife on Sep. 1 this year (1988).

Since then, it's been hard for me to make new friends.  I find it harder
to just "say hello".

Most of my socializing since my separation has been with old friends, such
as old girlfriends with whom I've remained friends.

I would have thought that getting back into the social scene would have
been easier but it's not.

As far as your question about sexual activity, when I first started
dating my ex-wife, there wasn't as much of an aids scare.

So now, I find sex a bit of a fear, so if I'm with someone and we get
physical, we tend to keep it to non-all-the-way (which supposedly avoids
aids but who knows?)

Your question about talking to other people about the separation?  I talk
to some people.  But with others it's not comfortable.

Interesting questions though!

Thanks.

/Eric

       Doug, you're right that I was painting with a wide brush but I
       was aware that certainly not all men fit my generalization. I was
       responding more at a 'gut' level than an intellectual one. Let me
       elaborate a bit. First off my use of the word invasive was in
       reference to sex with casual partners (though I did not specify
       that) and it was a reference to how I feel about sex in that
       context.

       From the other viewpoint (sex with someone I cared about) words
       like envelop, embrace, and accept come to mind. It just occurred
       to me that the words I have chosen in this context are action
       words describing the female role while the word I used in the
       casual sex context imply the action on the part of the male. For
       whatever that is worth.

<       you have crossed into the realm of opinion and I will inform you
<       that as a man I do not in any way feel that my sexuality is
<       exterior (read "separable", "detached", or "alienable") to my
<       identity, to my humanity, to my personhood. 

       Doug, you are correct that I did not mean this to deny your
       wholeness of being (god, that's awkward but I can't think of how
       else to say it). However, I still believe that sex is different
       in a fundamental way for men and women due to our differing
       anatomy. The closest thing I can think of for males would be
       homosexual sex (Please, I am making no value judgment here about
       the actions of consenting adults). A man does not have to accept
       a woman INTO his body the way a woman accepts a man, and I
       believe this colors our (female) view of the experience. I'd
       better quit now before I dig myself in so deep I can't get out.
       Perhaps this says more about my psyche than it does about
       anything else but it's the only place I can speak from. liesl

    RE: .0
    
    After my fiance and I broke up, I experienced the opposite of what
    you said.  I was all those everything on the woman's side and she
    was everthing on the men's side.  It all depends on each person.
    It doesn't matter what sex you are,  people handle things in different
    ways.  
    
    Bill

    
    RE.0
    	I have to say something after reading this base note. I have
    been holding back, not wanting to offend anyone, but,................
    I resent the insinuations of the base note. I must be abnormal,
    because i never fit into any of the catagories you listed. As a
    matter of fact I never came close.
    	Now I have sat here reading all the replies.........and I am
    even more confused.....
    	Perhaps the reason for so many breakups and not so good relations
    are these type stereotypes. How can people even go into relations
    thinking so d___ negatively? 
    	
    	I feel it is insane to put all people into one group and think
    they are all clones. If what was stated in the base note were true,
    I wonder why there are any relationships at all, nomind marriages.
    
    
    oh well, just my two cents. (which is probably not worth one penny)
    curt
    

    I posted this in another conference.... thought I'd post it here,
    as its how I recently dealt with a separation from what I thought
    was a good friendship.
    
    
    
    			    MY LIST
    			
    			Today I crossed
    			Your name off
    			My list
    			That left one --
    			Mine.
    			I think I'll
    			Cross off mine
    			And throw
    			The un-list away
    			As a celebration
    			Of our separation

    I think this ( .0) may be more a question of perspective than objective
    reality....
    
    Assuming each hurts, and neither wants to show it to the other,
    then it is bound to look like you hurt more than he/she does,
    regardless of gender.
    
    Which is not to say that men and women don't tend to have some
    differences in how they handle things.