Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    reply .1
    	what an arrogant jerk!
    reply .2
    	i always do a NEXT UNSEEN to HIS replies...
    reply .3
    	He thinks he can tell everyone how to live!
    reply .4
    	let's tar and feather him and run him out on a rail and see
    if he can FORGIVE THAT!
    reply .5
    	My sentiments exactly!
    reply .6
    	what a waste of disk space!
    reply .7
    	why doesn't the moderator DO something about HIM!!
    reply .8.......
    	and on and on and on....
    
if i reach one person....who reads it....acknowledges it....and
    responds favorably...
    i'll feel good....
    
    i already know how many of you will respond to it...
    now...does that make me clairevoyant?
    or other people.... predictable?

    try this....instead on anger and hostility....
    laugh!.....
    say..."oh rik!  you're such a silly, arrogant guy!....and you sure
    are crazy!!!...but we forgive you!..."
    
	a life of growth to you all
    	rik
    

    
    why is it...
    that I'll be very surprised...
    if .0 is still here in all it's glory and wisdom tomorrow morning?

    why do i think it will be deleted?
    
    is this a premonition?
    is god talking to me?
    are the drugs of my youth surfacing?
    

    A potentially interesting note/discussion gets turned into a self-pity
    party.  Now that's depressing.
    
    If you want discussion, let us discuss.  Your .1-.3 indicate to
    me that you don't expect a discussion; rather, you expect people
    to criticize you.  You have heard of the term "self-fulfilling
    prophecy," haven't you?  Perhaps you should spend some time considering
    it.  I was prepared to discuss .0 but if what I'm going to hear
    from you is going to be along the same lines as .1-.3, I'm not
    interested.  If you had purposefully planned a way to discourage
    participation in the topic, you couldn't have done a better job.
    I don't want to participate in a discussion where I have to spend
    half my time explaining my intentions.  I want to discuss the topic,
    not the discussion.  I don't feel I'll be able to do that here --
    because of the contents of .1-.3.

    
    Geez, rik.
    
    Can I get a word in edgewise?  (And howdy folks... it's been a while,
    eh?  Just readin' lately, not much writin')
    
    ... I'm becoming AWARE that the others here might have a point about
    your writings after all... but saying so is not really my intention 
    here.
    
    Rather, I would like to thank you for your kind invitation to join
    in the ranks of the AWARE people.  I think it's really nice of you
    to extend yourself like that.  And no, I didn't hit Next/Unseen nor
    was I "offended" by your note.  I simply wasn't impressed.
    
    You see, rik, I'm single because I choose to be.  I don't listen
    to people who say "You must get married."  And true, I'm not crazy
    about suits and ties, but I wear them to work every day anyway.
    I doubt that it's because I'm UNAWARE... no, it's because it is
    considered the appropriate way to dress for this business, and besides,
    I think most people look good in a good suit. (M *or* F!)
    
    And others in this conference (before 'your time', I believe) know
    that I have had my share of life's downers.  But I never, ever
    considered that "my life is over."  These low points are simply
    life's way of balancing things out... the ole' Ying & Yang, I guess.
    
    Alas, I guess my only problem was that, well... I was UNAWARE that
    I was UNAWARE.  Now that I'm AWARE that I was UNAWARE, I guess that
    means I'm now AWARE, right?  After all, you have no rules, no clubs,
    no real guidelines, right?  (Which raises a question of how you
    AWARE people draw the line between those who are AWARE and those
    who are not AWARE... or is that on a case by case basis?)  
    
    And if you truly have no real criteria other than feeling loftier
    than the next person 'cause you've been AWARE longer than they have,
    then I suppose it could also be said that everyone really IS aware,
    just a different levels.  
    
    Or am I just starting to get a headache?  I'm not sure anymore.
    
    No, rik, though I appreciate the offer, I sort of feel aware enough
    right now, thanks.  Could I use some more awareness?  Yeah.  I'm
    sure I could.  Everyone could.  It's called "Personal Growth."
    But I've got some degree of awareness.  I think the difference between
    you and I might be that I temper my awareness with an "I'm no better
    than you, you're no better than I" attitude.
    
    I don't preach my awareness.  I enjoy it... to whatever extent I'm
    able.
    
    Sigh.  'Nuff said.  I'm going back to silent anonymity now.
    
    Bob "I was never gone, 'rally" Hanson
    

       To rik,

       chill out, be mellow, hang loose, do a lude, do whatever but
       relax. geeze, most of us don't really care that much, guess I've
       never been part of the in crowd anyway. liesl

	 now the question is, folks....are each of us AWARE or not...
	 I mean...i could be AWARE but be UNAWARE that I'm AWARE,
	 but then, conversely, I could be UNAWARE but be UNAWARE that
	 I'm UNAWARE....or maybe...now that I'm AWARE of the fact that
	 I'm UNAWARE of whether I am AWARE or UNAWARE, I could maybe
	 do something about it...

	 hummmm....all this boggles my UNAWARE mind...I know I am
	 AWARE of the fact, though, that all of this AWAREness is
	 making me sleepy....

	 just want you to know, rik, if I have nightmares about which
	 club I'm in, its all your fault!  8^)

	 can we get this notesfile back onto meaningful discussions,
	 instead of whether you're right & I'm wrong or whatever?  all
	 this discussion is stupid...but....then again...that's just
	 my opinion!  8-)

	 kath

    This is amusing. My first reaction to .0 was "Aha! A lovely
    illustration of the perils of US-and-THEM thinking!" I kept expecting a
    line to the effect of "...and then I discovered that THEM _is_ US," but
    it never came.
    
    I think most of us (educated types) consider ourselves aware; however,
    so do most other folks who are willing to express an opinion. It's all
    very well to snuggle in with a group of like-minded people and enjoy
    the mutual agreement; indeed, I do not advocate seeking out folks who
    disagree with you on fundamentals (unless you like arguments). However,
    I have noticed that, as other people's experiences differ from mine, so
    might their views of reality - and what they consider the truth may be
    as valid for them as my views are to me.
    
    The US/THEM idea is insidious, and is probably impossible to eliminate;
    indeed, I don't think it needs to be eliminated, as some sort of
    selectivity is not necessarily a bad thing. But (I believe) we need to
    remind ourselves now and then that a large proportion of the world's
    population opens its eyes every morning to a completely different world
    than the one we see. (And many of those folks live down the street from
    us...)
    
    -b

RE:  .0

US/THEM
AWARE/UNAWARE
SUBJECT/OBJECT
YING/YANG
I/YOU

HO!  Already a million miles from the truth!

john

    re .0
    
    	My perception is that "US" are doing exactly what "US" accuse
    "THEM"  of doing.  As an earlier reply noted "THEM" is "US" which
    you seem to refuse to understand.
    
    Ernie 

    Interesting, Rik.  Until this note I didn't think you had a
    specific set of "right" ideas in mind.  Now it seems that
    you're expressing an intolerance for anyone who does not agree
    with the opinions of you and some people who agree with you.
    Do you realize how loaded the words "aware" and "unaware"
    are?  Do you realize how folks will consider themselves
    insulted by being called unaware?  

    I can't believe that someone who styles himself aware can
    fail to realize that.
    
    So I'm really wondering if you want to talk to people, or simply
    want to talk AT people.  Are you trying to understand people and
    discuss ideas, or are you preaching to convert?
    
    --Louise

    
    Re: .12
    
    Ah, Louise!  I knew that there was something about .0 that really
    got my hackles up, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it until
    you came up with the word that I was looking for:  Intolerance.
    
    In the true style(s) of people like Jimmy(s) Bakker & Swaggart, et al,
    .0 has set about to "label" any given individual as aware or unaware,
    depending of course upon his criteria of what constitutes such
    awareness.  I've also noted his brandings of liberal/conservative
    (which, in some political discussions is not in and of itself harmful,
     but seems certainly so intended here...), and right/wrong... all
    in his opinion, of course.  I'm sure that there are other examples, too.

    I don't appreciate, agree, or support people like the 'Radical Right',
    nor anyone else who expresses an intolerance for other peoples' rights
    or opinions.  And neither will I fight them until they impinge upon
    my right to live/act/feel/do as I choose.  If and when they do, quite
    simply they will lose.  (At least in the land of the free...)
    
    So I echo my opinion expressed in .5    I won't fight .0  I won't
    be offended.  I won't be overly vocal about it all.
    
    I am simply not impressed in the least with [whatever-the-heck-it-is-
    that-he-thinks-he-has-over-the-rest-of-us-all] and therefore really
    couldn't give a d*mn.
    
    I'm done... again.
    
    Bob_H

    This definately takes the cake of being the most boring thing I've
    ever read in this privileged, useful program we call notes!  
    
    I totally agree with .7.  
    
    Whatever this guy is on, I want some, but I want to stay locked
    in my room so I won't make an a** out of myself!
    
    PKT

    One must be AWARE that we can make choices...but that those choices
    must take into account those around us.  What makes you think that
    YOUR choices are appropriate for others?  No, we can't blindly follow
    "the system", but we have to take into account how our decisions
    affect others.
    
    Jim Jones, to some, was an AWARE individual...his choice certainly
    affected many people.
    
    By letting us know how AWARE you are...the choice is either to take
    your word for it or ignore it.
    
    Frankly, I'll pass this one up for a less narrow view.
    

         You know...my Dad used to sit at Sunday table and
         say the most outrageous things...like "Negros [they
         still called blacks that when I was growing up...]
         are genetically inferior to Whites..."
         
         Well, we would rage and roar and convince and wheedle
         and posture for an hour or more...all about his
         stupidity, and lack of sensitivity and pure
         orneriness...
         
         And Daddy?...He'ld just sit back and watch the fur
         fly...while we crawled all over him and each other
         trying to correct him...he loved to cause a fight
         or an argument...sort of like vicarious sex....hmmm?
         
         I may be wrong...but I see a lot of what my Daddy
         used to do in .0....I have finaly learned not to
         react to Daddy's buttons anymore...I guess I can
         resist Rick's...
         
         
         Melinda

    re: .7
    
    Uh. . .Yeah!. . .what *you* said. . .
    
    Steve
    

    I would like to thank the basenoter for making me AWARE of just
    how UNAWARE I've been.  I wasn't AWARE of how happy and fulfilled I
    could be by becoming AWARE.  I was UNAWARE of how unhappy life as
    an UNAWARE person really is.  Now that I'm AWARE, I'll always look
    back upon my life AWARE that I was a fool for thinking that I was
    AWARE, when I was in fact UNAWARE of my miserable existance as an
    UNAWARE.
    
    "I've seen the light, I've seen the light"
    
    The problem is that even though, thru enlightenment I've become
    AWARE, there is still, in the back of my mind, this little voice
    that says: "This is B.S."  
    
    SandieD

    
    Imagine a blank canvas for a painting.  That is a human being at
    birth.  Over the course of this person's childhood, society holds
    the paintbrush, defining the person as to what he/she should be,
    how he/she should act, implanting the seeds of "accepted" behavior.
    The difficult thing to do is to apply the paint remover to remove
    the illusions that have become so well founded in our lives that
    we just accept them as real.  It takes questioning of these things,
    to say "hey, maybe that isn't necessarily the way it's supposed to be"
    to find out what is right for you as an individual, and to come
    up with an objective view not based on society's laws.  You may come
    to the conclusion that the "crowd is the untruth."  You may not.
    I think what Rik is saying is that you should define yourself, and
    not let yourself be defined by society, and I think (hope)that that
    point was understood by most of the people replying to the base
    note, despite the attitudes conveyed in some of the replies.
    
    Dave
    

    Hi!  I'm Crazy Uncle Stevie.
    
    Are you tired of being UNAWARE?  Well, get ready to copy down
    this 800 number. . .it's your key to an exciting and challenging
    future as an AWAREnik.  You too can be like the thousands of
    people who've discovered that you don't need chemicals, surgery,
    or miracles to be AWARE.  Simply call our toll-free number to
    receive our new booklet which contains a whole new section of
    "before and after" photos.
    
    And remember I'm not just the president of Crazy Uncle Stevie's
    AWAREness club for the cosmically bewildered, I'm also a client.
    
    For further information, please send ridiculous sums of cash in
    unmarked bills to my mail stop.
    
    C. U. Stevie

    re.0
    
    It seems to me that aware/unaware is merely the euphemism-du-jour
    for right-think/wrong-think.
    
    While the contents of .0 would not brand you [in my eyes] as arrogant,
    they would seem to indicate a very narrow world-view diametrically
    opposed to another very narrow world-view that is distasteful to
    you.
    
    I am saddened by that you feel it necessary to place definitions
    and strictures on 'awareness,' branding all not within this pale
    as 'unawareness.'  It would seem to me that you are limiting your
    capacity for happiness and growth by choosing not to find 'awareness'
    in the infinite diversity in the human condition.
    
      Annie

    I agree with .19.  It's an interesting way to look at ourselves
    too.  (How original is *your* painting?)

    It may be what .0 was getting at and, even if it isn't, I like the
    concept.
    
    Lorna
    

    yo rik,
    
    do you know somebody by the name of Matt Groening?  (ARE you MG?)
    either he is reading your notes, then drawing cartoons, or you are
    reading his cartoons then writing notes.................or maybe
    even the two of you have never heard of each other, but are simply
    two geniuses who just so happen to think alike....................
    
    personally, i choose to have nothing to do with US and THEM, as
    they both belong to groups and i have no use for groups, unless
    it is a musically group that i like in which case i will join whichever
    group is standing out in the ticket line, the groups i like span
    both US and THEM, your definitions of them anyways.  funny how both
    sides define themselves as US and the others as THEM, i would prefer
    more distinctive titles so i don't start talking to THEM and refer
    to US and have THEM nod thinking that i belong to THEM, as they
    see THEMselves as US.
    
    worn out old joke follows spoiler...................................
    
    
    there are two kinds of people in this world, 
    those who think there are two kinds of people,
    and those who know better.
    

    RE .20
    
    Thanks "Crazy Uncle Stevie"
    
     I laughed out loud over that one!
    
    
    PKT

    
    re Matt Groening
    
    Yeah, he and Lynda Barry write some of the silliest
    comix I've ever seen.
    
    

    I'd rather be ALERT.
    
    American *needs* more LERTs.
    
    Stephen

RE: .7

Your first paragraph... You should get the Nobel prize for clear 
scientific articulation. I wish I'd thought of it myself.


RE: .12

>	Do you realize how folks will consider themselves
>	insulted by being called unaware? 

Me, I am very particular in my choice of people who can insult me.
Rik Sawyer doesn't even come close. 


>	So I'm really wondering if you want to talk to people, or
>	simply want to talk AT people.

Read .0 again. He simply wants to talk. Period.

Too bad. There's probably some merit to what he's saying, but --the
way he is saying it-- who's listening? 

-- Ron

    RE: .27
    
    I pretty much agree Ron. I was hoping Rik would at least answer some
    of the questions posed to him and maybe elaborate on some of the
    points he raised. 
    
    						Hank

    
    re. 28
    first, there were very few questions...
    mostly a lot of abusive noise from people who thought i was insulting
    them and decided that i needed putting in my place....

    once the first 3 or 4 people had told me what an insulting herk
    i was don't you think that would have been enough?
    nope. not for the masses.  these people who believe in god...
    they still like throwing those stones...
        
    and, as the masses do enjoy abusing people, the onslaught was on...!
    i enjoyed it thoroughly!
    it pretty much proved to me that most of the people who replied
    were pretty much what i thought they were....
rather primitive, rather silly, rather ignorant, rather abusive and
    rather unaware...
    but....the masses don't deal with reality very well...
and i forgive them because it's not their fault that they;ve been 
    brainwashed into being good little clones...
            
    2 people replied nicely...of course, they happen to be 2 friends
    of mine who happen to be members of the club of awareness...
    ((sorry, dave and lorna, hope the masses (the disappointing masses)
    don't abuse you now))
	and a few other noters sent mail telling me that they understood
    but please don't mention our names in notes because THEY might attack
    us...
	that was nice...
    	but it was also sad....
    	the more AWARE people are afraid to note in here...
    	very sad...
        
    but so many others, so typically, laughed at, abused, devalued me
    and my whole base note....and did moderators step in?
    nope.
    you remind me of the germans attacking the jews in ww2...
    in fact, your abusive and insulting replies only confirmed for me
    that, indeed, you are THEM and i am part of US...
    and THEM is not a very nice club to be in...
    
    
    .7 said it was meaningless and stupid...
    because she is the expert on stupid and meaningless?
    or because she has a right to dictate to everyone just what is
    meaningless and stupid?
    
    .9 mike "ditto" zarlenga....
    pretty much what i expected....
(i have to be careful...you guys can use nasty words against me but
    i can't use them against you)    

        a few people called it "self pity"
    which is wasn't at all!
    but i guess it makes them feel good to think it was self pity....
    far from self pity it was my perception of the difference between
    you and me...
    them and us...
    if anything, i have pity for you people....
    brainwashed little clones, doing what society tells you, living
    your insignificant little lifes according to silly rules and
    guidelines and regulations set up by unscrupulous men.......
    
    i know there are some very aware people in this notes file....
    most of them are read only....
    unfortunately the ones who reply the most, the most vociferous ones,
    seem to need to grow more...
    
    they could have chosen to disagree or debate but they chose to devalue
    and denegrate....
    .4 made a big deal out of telling me that he was gonna debate but
    my whole note was so full of self pity that he'd rather just devalue
    it....
    he still cold have chosen to debate...but...no...
    
    .11  us and them
    but...from my perspective....there is quite cleary an *us* and
    *them*...
    isn't the number of replies telling me what a jerk i was enough
    evidence to conlcude that they are all one group and i belong in
    another....(i can see the jokes forming now)
    
    dave lorna and i are in the *us* 
    while every other reply, being pretty much on the same level, was/is...
    *them*...
    can't you see it?
    
        you didn't have to abuse me over this issue...
    you didn't have to make fun of me or my point...
    but you did....
    and, like masses do, you all got into it....
    	and i know that many of you enjoyed it...
    	and, though the words weren't used very often....you were all
    pretty much telling me what a jerk i am...
    	which, if ya really knew me, you'd know wasn't/isn't true...
    
    someone suggested...INTOLERANCE....
    i have to admit i have some intolerance for the ignorances of the
    masses but...i think i do a pretty good job of tolerating both the
    ignorances AND the abuses of the masses....
    like...in this note...
    
    one person told me to lighten up...
    and THAT is what i'm trying to tell you...
    LIGHTEN UP!  (see below)
    
    re.28
    answers?
    well, there were no questions but i'll give some answers...
    LIGHTEN UP!
    you don't have to get married.
    and, if you get married and want to get out...it's ok.
    ya shouldn't promise to love someone forever cus ya don't know
    how you'll feel in 5 or 10 years....(isn't that honest? isn't that
    wise?)
    and ya don't have to have kids....
    there messy and noisy....get a cat instead....
    and you can have a kid without getting married!
    yup...you can.
    america isn't the greatest country in the world
    in fact..america isn't even great...it's just..acceptable...
    but it needs lotsa work...
    and ya don't have to stand for judges or anthems...
    dont' you see that when you do that you are granting power to others?
    power over you!
    "yes yer honor yes yer lord ship yes your majesty"
    it's not respect when you HAVE to do it...
    and your right to vote is a joke!....you get to choose between one
    party's hip pocket clone and another party's hip pocket clone...
    big deal....so what....
    you people are soproud to be amaericans and the reasons you give
    are all....b.s....
    the constitution was written over 200 years ago by men who believed
    in slavery, would not allow women to vote, would only allow MEN
    with property to vote and hold office AND they wore suits and were
    religious!...now just how wise could they be if they had all those
    deficiencies?
    and you can wear what ya want to!!!! ya dont' have to stock your
    wardrobe with silly grey and black suits.  you can, yes, you can,
    buy and wear what you want to without worrying about what society
    dictates.
    you don't have to always be following orders and doing what you're
    told by MEN who think it's ok to throw lives away for their own
    financial gain (but they know that if they tell you it's for god
    and country and freedom you'll do it)
    
    went to a celtics game a few weeks ago...
    they played the natural anema...
    everyone stood up like good little boys and girls should...
    everyone but...me.
    
    i imagine how angry this makes many of you....
    
    that night US was outnumbered by THEM 15000 to 1...
    
    so...it's your turn.... all you wise and aware people...
    go ahead and show us again how wise and aware you are by devaluing
    me and my beliefs...
    go ahead and prove how mature you all are by insulting me...
    i love it when you prove my own point.
    
    don't worry....you won't be alone....
    mike and bob and steve and ron and....
    well, there's lotsa you out there who think that abuse and insults
    are a good example of growth and wisdom....

    have fun
    

RE: .29

	 it seems that aware people do not seem to know how relax and
	 take a joke, though, now do they? (RE: .7)

	 Since you seem to be saying in .29 that people who insult
	 other people, and who do not try to understand what you
	 believe in are *THEM*.....for example the following quotes

>>and, as the masses do enjoy abusing people, the onslaught was on...!

>>rather primitive, rather silly, rather ignorant, rather abusive and
  >>rather unaware...

>>but so many others, so typically, laughed at, abused, devalued me

>>in fact, your abusive and insulting replies only confirmed for me
  >>that, indeed, you are THEM and i am part of US...
  >>and THEM is not a very nice club to be in...


	 well, rik...consider the following quotes from .29...

	 	     
>>.7 said it was meaningless and stupid...
  >>because she is the expert on stupid and meaningless
    (a direct insult?)
>>or because she has a right to dictate to everyone just what is
  >>meaningless and stupid
    (another one?)
    
>>.9 mike "ditto" zarlenga....
  >>pretty much what i expected....
>>(i have to be careful...you guys can use nasty words against me but
  >>i can't use them against you)    
  (looks like you are to me...)
	 
>>brainwashed little clones, doing what society tells you, living
  >>your insignificant little lifes according to silly rules and
  >>guidelines and regulations set up by unscrupulous men.......
  (who are you to say who is unscrupulous?)
  (you don't even know us...how can you call us brainwashed by
	 society...you are seeing such a small side of the people in
	 this file....you do not know the REAL me, that's for sure...
	 how can you judge me this way?)
  (my life is NOT insignificant to me....maybe to you...but not to
	 me... and I'm sure not to a lot of other people in NOTES)
	 
>>unfortunately the ones who reply the most, the most vociferous ones,
  >>seem to need to grow more...
  (are you the Almighty Rik who decides who is mature and who isn't?)
	 
>>they could have chosen to disagree or debate but they chose to devalue
  >>and denegrate....
  (sounds exactly like the way I perceive the guy who wrote reply 29)

>>go ahead and prove how mature you all are by insulting me...
  (and just what are you trying to prove to us by taking the same
	 attitude?) 

	 So, rik....take a minute...before you get angry, or fly off
	 the handle, or whatever you wish to do after reading this
	 note, and LOOK!  LOOK at the quotes I have highlighted from
	 you reply.  You say you are an "open-minded" individual...
	 take the time and SEE YOU the way WE SEE YOU....

	 what makes YOU so different than US....I've just shown, by
	 your own hand, that you are exactly the type of person which
	 you catagorize as *THEM*....

	 
>>can't you see it?

	 can't YOU see it, rik?
	   
>>pretty much telling me what a jerk i am...
  >>which, if ya really knew me, you'd know wasn't/isn't true...

	 and rik if you REALLY knew me, i really think you would like
	 me, we think a lot a like...and a lot different...but then
	 again... *I* am *NOT* you, nor a clone of you....right?
	 And maybe if you took the time to know a lot of the people in
	 this notesfile, you might think twice about slapping vicious
	 stereotypes on us.....

	 you said you pity us, rik?  i pity you because I truly
	 believe that you do not have the ability to read what you
	 yourself wrote and to see yourself the way we see you... i
	 really don't think you can do it....(yes...that is a
	 challenge) 

	 kathy
	 
    

    
    A few questions for the base noter. Please answer the following:
    
    Do you perform the tasks your respective manager asks of you? If
    so, why?
    
    When driving, do you obey the speed limits? If so, why?
    
    Do you wear clothes in public places? If so, why?
    
    Do you say excuse me after you belch? If so, why?
    
    Do you still respect your parents? If so, why?
    
    Do you rape, steal, or kill? Is so, why? If no, why not?
    
    Do you use the bathroom for nature calls? If so, why?
    
    No inneuendos here.. Just some questions that will help enlighten
    me as to how enlightened you are.. Bear in mind that by answering
    yes to any of these questions causes the barrier between US/THEM,
    AWARE/UNAWARE, and YOU/I  to diminish.
    
    Brian

    Re: .29
    
    >.4 made a big deal out of telling me that he was gonna debate
    
    Why are you so sure I'm a "he"?
    
    >but my whole note was so full of self pity
    
    Not the whole note, but the first three replies.  If it wasn't self
    pity, then what was it?  What message were you trying to get across
    to this noting community in those first three replies?
    
    >that he'd rather just devalue it....
    
    Since self pity doesn't carry much value for me, naturally I didn't
    feel much liking or respect for those three replies.  I had no
    objections to the base note.
    
    >he still cold have chosen to debate...but...no...
    
    And I explained why.  I knew it would come down to something like
    this.  Rather than discuss the content of the replies, we'd be
    discussing the attitudes behind them.  Rather than discuss the content
    of the base note, we'd be discussing whether or not you were right
    in your evaluation of your fellow noters.  I find such discussions
    usually end up in frustration for most of those involved, since
    they're based on how people perceive each other.  If you honestly
    believe that someone has <x> quality and that person honestly believes
    they don't have <x> quality, there's no resolution to the discussion
    and both you and the other person can end up feeling misunderstood.
    After all, you're communicating something that seems completely
    obvious to you and the other person persists in thinking otherwise.
         

    
    Er Rik, why are you so angry?  You had some good thoughts but you
    rambled rather badly. Could you have gotten to the point simply
    and with clarity?
    
    John

    
    It appears that is Rik's style.