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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

627.0. "I'm in love and don't know what to do" by QUARK::HR_MODERATOR () Thu Nov 17 1988 14:16

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I need some advice.  I'm in the process of getting divorced.  I have dated a 
few times but then along came (I'll call him Mike).  Well, we went out to 
dinner on our first date (the week after I met him) and I can honestly say 
that I started falling in love with him that night.  I kept thinking - it's 
only infatuation or something like that so I didn't say anything to him.  
We were also intimate that night all night and couldn't believe how "right" it 
felt for both of us and how much we have in common.

Anyway, we both decided we would take things slow because we both were coming 
out of bad relationships and also we both had other problems.  But, it wasn't 
going as slow as it should have.  Anyway, he would ask me 3 or 4 times now if 
there was any chance at all I'd go back with my ex (there definitely isn't) 
and then he would say things like he doesn't want any committments etc...so I 
told him not to worry - we can be friends and need each other and be with each 
other but not have any committments.  He said he didn't want me falling in 
love with him and end up hurt in the long run.  I told him it's okay - that 
I wasn't in love with him (I didn't want to tell him the truth because I 
didn't want him to get scared off) and we would take it one step at a time and 
if one of us or both of us fell in love we did and if we didn't then we 
didn't.  

I've seen him several times and he calls about twice a week as do I.  
When we are together we are real happy.  He keeps telling me he's "confused" 
and has a hard time resisting me when I'm with him.

Well, I had invited him over for dinner one Saturday night and he couldn't
make it. That was okay - I was a little disappointed but no problem. 
Then I talked to him on that Sunday night and he wasn't feeling well so our 
conversation was one sided - I was doing the talking - he was giving me "yes" 
and "no" answers.  I kept asking him what's wrong but he wouldn't tell me.
So I said okay - bye.  Then he called me back about an hour or so later, I 
told him I couldn't talk but to call me back - he did and again I couldn't 
talk - someone in my house said I was sick and would get back to him within 
the week.  Well he called me on Monday night and the first words out of his 
mouth were "Don't hang up".  I didn't.  We talked and I told him I had 
something to say but wrote it in a letter - I couldn't tell him on the phone.  
He was upset about that. I told him how I had gone out Friday night and danced 
all night and he had said how many slow dances with different guys?  I said 
not any and he said sure but then he said "well it doesn't matter cause I 
don't care anyway" then I asked him about his Saturday night - he went out 
partying all night and got home the next morning and I had said well were you 
with another woman and he said he was with lots of women and men - friends.  
Then we started talking about other things and he said the only reason he 
called was to make sure I was okay.  Then he said that it was none of my 
concern if he was with another woman - I agreed to him.  

Anyway, from our conversations - I get the impression that he is falling in 
love with me but he keeps pushing me away saying I should see other men, I'm 
not good enough for him - (he has a low self-esteem).  I on the other hand 
don't want to see anyone else.  I have been searching for him all my life.  I 
am being picky about who I date and he walks into my life with everything 
I've always looked for and I'm not sure what to do.  I know I have to give him 
"time"  that will be most advice I get I suppose.  I wrote him a long letter, 
I told him exactly how I felt and that if he didn't want to see me again that 
I'd be okay and I'd understand.  I know he got the letter.  It's been 3 days 
now.  I haven't herd from him and I want to call him so bad.  Should I call 
him?  Should I just suffer through it? I really love him and I love being with 
him and I know it's mutual but he won't come out and say it and I'm really 
frustrated over it.  I'm sure from our conversations and the few people I've 
talked to that he is falling in love but is scared.....I keep thinking I"ll 
call him - what exactly do I have to lose if I do right? or Wrong?
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
627.1AXEL::FOLEYRebel without a ClueThu Nov 17 1988 15:5011
       
       
       	Call him and ask if he got the letter. Then ask to talk to him
       face to face and confront him with your feelings. If he doesn't
       open up and tell you wants going on then consider moving on with
       your life..
       
       						mike
       						(Not the one in this
       						example, although, he
       						sounds all too familiar!)
627.2RUTLND::KUPTONThe Office Time ForgotThu Nov 17 1988 17:009
    
    
    	Just tell him you love him, he's what you have always wanted
    in a man (up to now) and your his if he loves you too. If not, thank
    you very much.
    
    	The longer you drag this on, the worse it will get.
    
    Ken
627.3APEHUB::STHILAIRENothing But FlowersThu Nov 17 1988 19:3328
    I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I honestly don't think he
    is falling in love with you.  He may like you, but not enough to
    get involved, otherwise the present situation wouldn't exist.  I
    think men often use "scared to get involved" and "confused" excuses
    (or else women looking at the world thru rose colored glasses use
    those excuses *for* men!) when they don't want to hurt someone they 
    aren't in love with.  
    
    If he wasn't around on a Sat. night, and he told you it wasn't any
    of your business if he was with another woman, I think you should
    take the hint before you get hurt.  If you weren't in love with
    him, and only wanted him as a friend, and/or casual lover, and didn't
    really care when/if you saw him again, then his attitude would be
    fine.  But, you care and he probably doesn't (at least nowhere near
    the  way you care about him), so I think you should just put him
    out of your mind and get on with your life.  (You'll have enough
    problems when you fall in love again with someone who loves you
    back, nevermind falling in love with someone who doesn't!)
    
    I don't mean to sound cynical, but I hate to hear these stories.
     (Reminds me too much of some things that happened to me in the
    past :-( )  I've fallen in love with people who loved me back and
    with people who didn't love me back, and there's a difference. 
    When it's mutual they don't act like this guy is, and they want
    to be with you all the time, especially Friday and Sat. nights.
    
    Lorna
      
627.4It hurts, but there are better things on the horizon, I promise!BUSY::KLEINBERGERMost of an angel is in the insideThu Nov 17 1988 21:5740
    I have to agree with .3....
    
    First of all, my first thought with the yes and no answers, and
    having to call you back was that he had a female with him at the
    time you called, or someone there that he didn't want to share that
    you were on the phone.
    
    Second of all.. a letter is a *cop-out*... it is often "the easy way out".
    it avoids, or at worse, defers the confrontation.  sometimes, just
    putting your feelings down on a piece of paper (or a tube)
    "solidifies" or "clarifies" them for the writer.  And, while the risk
    of not being totally understood by the recipient of the letter is very 
    real...the author generally doesn't really care about that, and quite 
    easily rationalizes it to himself.  It is a form of telling yourself
    (the author) that you have "done your duty" and "advised" the "enemy" 
    (wrong word, i know...but effective) of your intentions.  The fact
    that the "enemy" is not party to the decision, has little or no effect
    on its implementation, and may not even *understand* the
    decision...has no bearing on its validity to the author.   
    
    Now you are in the "give me space mode".... Know what... its a
    lose-lose situation....  He wins that he has no contact with you,
    but loses out when you two don't talk things through, and come to
    an understanding of what your hidden agendas were. You win because
    you can play the martyr... but you both lose. You clearly had hidden
    agendas, however he was just a much at fault, because he led you
    to believe that things were okay, when in his mind they weren't.
    
    I'd say forget about him....  He may be worth it, but is the pain
    worth it?... The cat and mouse games began way before the letter,
    do you *really* want them to continue?.... Sometimes the most mature
    men are really the least insecure, and until the are confronted
    with some real hard feelings, they don't know they can't handle
    them....
    
    I know... easier said then done.. but usually the best deal all
    around...  if he *really* wanted to be with you, he knows your node...
    
    Gale
    
627.5relax, back off, take stock of yourselfQUARK::LIONELAd AstraThu Nov 17 1988 22:2415
    I'd basically agree with Lorna and Gale, and would further comment that
    you (and he) are extremely vulnerable, having just come out of "bad"
    relationships.  This is the time you're most likely to grab at any
    chance of happiness that comes along, without stopping to think about
    whether or not this is REALLY what you want.  When things move as
    quickly as you say they did, that, to me, is a signal to slow down.
    
    Do you really think he's going to change?  How long are you willing
    to hide your feelings to keep from "losing him"?
    
    I haven't had a situation exactly like yours, but I've been in the
    vulnerable position enough times to be able to recognize it for what
    it is.
    
    					Steve
627.6CSC32::WOLBACHThu Nov 17 1988 22:4949
    
    
    The last three replies could be very true.  You may very well
    be opening yourself up to a world of heartache.  And let me
    tell you how I know this.
    
    Three years ago, I separated from my huband.   Over Thanksgiving,
    I met a co-worker.  My initial reaction when meeting him was
    "This is it."  That sounds so silly and illogical.  But those
    words truely did go thru my head...almost subconsciously.  And
    for the next 18 months, our relationship closely paralleled yours.
    He was 'afraid' of commitment (because of negative past experiences).
    His career was a top-priority item in his life.  Etc Etc.  And his
    behavior gave me mixed messages.  Sometimes I thought he was crazy
    about me, and sometimes I thought he couldn't care less.  Most of
    the time I thought he couldn't care less, but the times he indicated
    that he cared very much gave me hope.  And quite frankly, my intuition
    told me that we had an excellent chance for a relationship, if he
    would recognize, and conquer, his fears.  Something told me to hang
    in there.  And I did.  Don't misunderstand-his actions caused brought
    some real pain into my life.  And I sometimes questioned my own
    sanity.
    
    Now for the punchline-a little over a year ago, we were married,
    and he is everything I could possibly want in a husband.  And more.
    He is devoted, loving, considerate, giving-the list goes on-and
    a terrific stepfather, to boot!
    
    Somehow, I knew what was inside, and helped him to release all those
    wonderful qualities.
    
    The practical advice:  Get very clear on what YOU want.  If necessary,
    make a list.  Are you looking for a commitment?  Is marriage important
    to you?  What are your basic values?  (do not EVER compromise your
    own values, or allow them to be compromised)  What areas are
    negotiable,and which areas are non-negotiable? (fidelity is a
    non-negotiable item in my life.  leaving wet towels o the bed is
    negotiable)  When you are real sure what is important to you, tell
    him how you feel and what you would like to happen.  Then act on
    that old saying "If you love something, set it free."
    
    You have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, by telling him
    where YOU are coming from, and where you are planning to go.
    
    Good luck to you!!!
    
    Deborah
    
    
627.7Be Careful Too.ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIAh, the road within withoutFri Nov 18 1988 10:5462
	If I'm in an intimate relationship with someone (beyond
"holding hands") it is VERY MUCH my business to know if they
were "with" someone else on a night I wasnt available to them.
He is bullsh*tting you if he's telling you "it's none of your
business"...I'd tell him "fine...goodbye".

	We all know what's out there. Would you risk it, however
improbable, by accepting "Oh, it's none of my business who he's
with or what he's doing"? Safe sex, I hope...

	Why do I hear the "dating game" jingle in my head? Please
be careful with yourself when playing. Set up some foundation
rules that are not to be breached, like "No monogamy - no nookie",
"no honesty - no relationship" and "no feelings - no interest".
Enjoy your integrity.

	Joe Jas

























< Note 627.5 by QUARK::LIONEL "Ad Astra" >
                  -< relax, back off, take stock of yourself >-

    I'd basically agree with Lorna and Gale, and would further comment that
    you (and he) are extremely vulnerable, having just come out of "bad"
    relationships.  This is the time you're most likely to grab at any
    chance of happiness that comes along, without stopping to think about
    whether or not this is REALLY what you want.  When things move as
    quickly as you say they did, that, to me, is a signal to slow down.
    
    Do you really think he's going to change?  How long are you willing
    to hide your feelings to keep from "losing him"?
    
    I haven't had a situation exactly like yours, but I've been in the
    vulnerable position enough times to be able to recognize it for what
    it is.
    
    					Steve

627.8ANT::BUSHEELiving on Blues PowerFri Nov 18 1988 11:5740
    
    	For myself (which is the ONLY person I can speak for), I am
    	not afraid of commitment. I am however very very protective
    	of my "free" time to myself. In my 12 1/2 year marriage I
    	somehow allowed myself to be put into a position where I had
    	to give up being me to keep the relationship going. Now that
    	I'm divorced I can say I'll never ever allow myself to get
    	into that sort of position again. In any relationship I may
    	have in the future, I will not allow anyone to place demands
    	on all my time, or to feel I must account for every minute
    	that we are apart. I also don't feel I would want to spend
    	each and every free minute with the other. I'd say something
    	like twice/three nights during the week plus Saturday night
    	and Sunday would be about right for me. I need Saturdays to
    	myself to do things I enjoy alone, such as fishing, just hanging
    	around with MY friends, whatever.
    
    	 This could be what this man is afraid of getting into, a
    	relationship that places demands for all his free time or
    	accountability for it. It may also be his ex was a person
    	like my ex, she never trusted me if she couldn't see me. I
    	never did a single thing to warrent that, it was the way she
    	had been brought up. Living in a relationship where you must
    	always prove you are being faithful and if not then assumed
    	and accused to your face is not fun and does change your
    	outlook for future relationships. A good example was I lived
    	a 20 minute drive from work and if I didn't make by that 20
    	minutes I'd get the third degree. Laugh if you want, but do
    	you know how damaging it can be to take an extra 10 minutes
    	to get home and be called a cheating no good that is running
    	around with every woman I could get within ten miles of?
    
    	I brought this up because my ex-relationship has changed the
    	way I think of relationships. In fact, so much so that for the
    	past eight years I'll run like crazy if a woman friend even
    	makes me think she might be interested.
    
    	Just a thought.
    
    	G_B
627.9APEHUB::STHILAIRENothing But FlowersFri Nov 18 1988 12:5314
    Re .8, unfortunately, it sounds as though you are intent on punishing
    all other women for the negative qualities your ex-wife possessed.
     It's your choice, of course, but if you never give anybody else
    a chance again you may miss out on something good.

    My experience has been that when people first meet and fall in love,
    they do want to spend every minute together.  Then, once they settle
    into a relationship they may also want some time apart for other
    friends and hobbies.  There is a happy medium between being accused 
    of infidelities every time you're 10 minutes late, and spending
    most of your time with other people or alone.

    Lorna
    
627.10Reply from base note authorQUARK::HR_MODERATORFri Nov 18 1988 13:1317
    The following reply is from the anonymous author of the base note.
    
    
    
    Thanks for the many responses.  I'm beginning to "Wonder". Basically -
    he knows how I feel - and he doesn't want to get any closer which is
    fine.  He has his freedom - I have mine but I still can't help my
    feelings however, I"m going to do the right thing - if he calls and
    wants to go out fine, if not - that's okay - someone else will call
    me.....BUT, I think that we both got too close too quickly and that is
    why I fell in love with him - I"ll survive this and move on and if he
    wants to share his life with me - I"ll be here and if not, that's okay
    too but I"m not getting "involved" with anyone else again for a long
    time to come - that probably was a mistake on my part and his but I
    really don't know - think I"ll just put things on the back burner and
    go have some fun and find out more about myself.....boy am I going to
    miss him tho.
627.13Hang in there!WFOOFF::MROCZEKFri Nov 18 1988 15:0010
    .8
    I think you had a very bad experience and when the right person
    comes along you will not run so fast or far.
    
    .9
    I do not think .8 is causing anyone but himself any problem.
    
    If it is right it will work.
    
    Sue
627.14i'm confused...it must be friday...SSDEVO::GALLUPWhen it rains...it pours...Fri Nov 18 1988 16:2124
>>    WHAT IN THE H**L HAS LOVE TO DO WITH COMMITMENT? 
>>    As soon as you attach commitment to love it becomes something other
>>    than love...

	 So, what's it become, chopped beef?  It seems to me that when
	 I love someone, the commitment develops naturally....You
	 cannot force someone into commitment...it will just happen if
	 they really love you...

	 To me, true love and commitment go hand in hand and its very
	 hard to separate the two....Also, I think I realize that I am
	 truly in love when I recognize that I feel committed to
	 someone..

	 If a person can't feel a sort of commitment to the person
	 they love, then what is love anyway?

	 Then again..there are varying degrees of commitment...I don't
	 want to stifle a man, but I also feel that monogamy is
	 something to expect when there is mutual love...

	 kath

627.15Love and commitment are intertwingledQUARK::LIONELAd AstraFri Nov 18 1988 17:156
    Re: .14
    
    Kathy, I agree with you 100%.  It always astonishes me to find people
    who believe otherwise.
    
    				Steve
627.16HANDY::MALLETTSplit DecisionFri Nov 18 1988 17:2710
    re: love & commitment
    
    Perhaps what gets a little confusing (or astonishing) is that
    "commitment" means many things to many people; for some it's
    synonymous with "monogamy" for others, this isn't so.  Trouble
    can start when both people assume it their partner's definition 
    is the same as theirs.
    
    (ya) Steve
    
627.17Just not MY cup of tea (I hate tea anyways)ANT::BUSHEELiving on Blues PowerFri Nov 18 1988 17:4216
    
    	RE: .9
    
    	 Lorna,  I never said I was missing out on anything. Please
    	don't assume that cause YOU feel I am, that in fact I am. I
    	have never felt more complete as I do now, away from all the
    	crap I allowed myself to get trapped into before. And no, I
    	never did have any problem with commitment or wanting to spend
    	all my free time with my ex, it's since the divorce that I have
    	come to understand just how much of myself I had to give up
    	for a relationship that was never heading anywhere.
    
    	To each their own I guess.
    
    	G_B
    
627.18...TGIF...SSDEVO::GALLUPWhen it rains...it pours...Fri Nov 18 1988 17:5322
627.19APEHUB::STHILAIRENothing But FlowersFri Nov 18 1988 18:008
    Re .17, it's just that you sounded kind of bitter.  I would feel
    I was missing something if I had your attitude, but maybe you aren't.
    
    I agree with Kathy and Steve as far as love and commitment go. 
    I don't think that love without commitment is worth taking seriously.
    
    Lorna
    
627.22lover ?= friendSSDEVO::GALLUPWhen it rains...it pours...Fri Nov 18 1988 18:5514
627.23Definition of love...well, mine anyway!NYEM1::COHENaka JayCee...I LOVE the METS &amp; #8!Mon Nov 21 1988 11:3712
    re:20
    
    I once defined love to my dad as :
    
    LOVE IS AN ITCH AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR HEART THAT YOU JUST CAN'T
    SCRATCH!
    
    I did this when I was 4 1/2...I think the definition still holds
    true!
    
    JayCee
    
627.24"Falling in and out of Love with You"SALEM::JWILSONJust A Natural ManMon Nov 21 1988 15:3118
    I believe that psychologists define love (and I paraphrase) as being
    when you place the well-being of another person over that of yourself.
    (To me, that spells commitment.)  
    
    On the other hand, you can have a "loving feeling" towards another
    person without being willing to place his/her well-being above yours,
    and without Loving him/her.  There is definitely a difference (to
    My way of thinking).
    
    I like the definition that says that Love is a Decision.  You can
    *feel* unloving toward your spouse/SO/Lover but still make the decision
    to (in the long run) be With them, or For them.  If love is strictly
    a "feeling," then every time you get angry with them, you fall Out
    of Love with them.
          
    With Love,  ;^)
    
    Jack
627.25give him time but keep in touchSALEM::SAWYERAlien. On MY planet we reason!Mon Nov 21 1988 15:3320
    
    I agree with those who suggest confronting him with your dilemna
    to see what he says and how he reacts. I also feel that, should
    he confess to having feelings for you similiar to your own for
    him, you should keep plugging away at him...
    	you indicate that he may be "falling in love with you" and
    that he may be fighting this...
    	ok, let him fight it. But don't give up on him if you feel
    as strongly as you say you do. Keep in touch with him. Call him
    on a regular basis. Keep asking him out. He may be going through
    a rough time adjusting to this "falling in love" experience and
    if you give him some time and just keep hanging around he may come
    to terms with the whole experience and voila'!
    	If you feel this strongly and if you BELIEVE that he has strong
    feelings for you then just giving up and walking away because he
    is confused or having difficulty delaing with the situation is
    probably not a very good answer. Maybe in 3 months or 6 months or
    2 or 3 years he will be able to deal with the situation.
    
    	cus people do change....
627.26COGMK::CHELSEAMostly harmless.Mon Nov 21 1988 15:547
    I think you deserve at least an acknowledgement of your letter.
    Call him or visit him.  Ask him if he received it.  If you think
    the letter was a mistake, tell him that, too.  Tell him what you're
    capable of accepting.  Ask him what he'd like to do.  In other words,
    talk.  Talk about what you feel, what you want, what you can do.
    It might not work out.  He might not be capable of giving you what
    you want, now or ever.  Then again, he might.
627.27He has your number..... (sigh)RAVEN1::S_MACINNISTue Nov 22 1988 12:4711
    
    I don't think you should call him OR visit him. You told him exactly
    how you feel in your letter, now the ball is in his court. If he
    doesn't call or acknowledge your letter I would leave it alone.
    It hurts (rejection always does) but do you really want him to be
    with you because You want him to be ? You have to let him make his
    choice. You already made yours.

    Good Luck... I hope it works out for you.
    
    Sheree
627.28There's other fish in the sea!CLT::CJOHNSONCalgon... Take Me Away!!Mon Nov 28 1988 16:5215
    
    I agree with re.27.  If he loves you he'll let you know.  I wouldn't
    wait around for his call though.  I've done that so many times and I
    regret doing it.  It just makes things worse and you dwell on it and
    you feel miserable.  If you can, just try to focus on other things in
    you life and move on.  If he calls and realizes that he cares about you
    and you feel the same way, well great!  Just like the others said, make
    sure you're doing what YOU want to do.  I think he's just not ready for
    a realtionship and does really need some time.  Believe me, there are
    plenty of other men out there and somewhere along the line you're going
    to meet someone who's going to care about you as much as you care about
    him and you'll KNOW that he's the one without a doubt! 
    
    CJ
    
627.29Sounds like he cares...CSC32::DELKERMon Nov 28 1988 21:1829
    It doesn't seem that he'd be concerned with how many slow dances
    you danced with how many other guys, if he didn't care.  So, my
    feeling is to disagree with some of the other replies.  It sounds
    like he's falling too, but desparately trying not to get involved.
    If he didn't feel any pain or guilt in your relationship, maybe
    he'll be back.  Sounds like he's afraid of being responsible to
    someone (thus feeling the need to say that he can see other women
    and it's none of your business).  I agree with the response that
    said with what's out there these days, what he does with other
    women *is* your business if you continue to have an intimate
    relationship.  This actually sounds a bit like somebody I knew once.
    
    As for what to do at this point, I'd call (if that's easier than
    seeing him in person - in person would be better) him one more time;
    try to keep it fairly low-key, and be honest with him.  It would
    be nice if he trusted you enough emotionally to tell you how he
    feels or what he's afraid of.  Just don't back him into a corner.
    You get nowhere fast once a person feels defensive.  His calling
    "to make sure you're okay" indicates that he cares how you feel.
    Maybe he would agree to get together and discuss your feelings for
    one another, and where to go from here.  He really does sound confused
    to me; I think he does care.  Just go easy on him. If he really
    doesn't want to get involved, he ought to be able to tell you that 
    in person (or by phone). I think he has strong feelings for you,
    which frighten him for some reason.
    
    Give him a call.  Good luck to you!
    
    Paula
627.30"love & committment': a label to manipulate byYODA::BARANSKIdon't fake realityFri Dec 16 1988 05:438
RE: love = committment

What are your definitions of love and committment?  All I know is that I've very
much loved, and been committed to a person, and it had absolutely nothing to do
the ways that they were trying to manipulate me in the name of love and
committment. Why do they think they can & should & have to do that? 

Jim. 
627.31don't commit!...just love...SALEM::SAWYERAlien. On MY planet we reason!Mon Dec 19 1988 15:5640
    
    i know some of you people are much brighter and wiser then i am....
    and i know many of you have the incredible ability to foresee the
    future and be able to tell just exactly how you are going to feel
    in 5 or 10 or 20 years....
    
    a great gift, that.
    
    but, poor, ignorant me...
    i don't have that ability....
    i have absolutely no idea what will happen or how i will feel in
    5 or 10 or 20 or 2 years....

    many of you KNOW that the person you fell in love with will be
    the person you are in love with FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER ...
    golly.
	sad to say....i DON'T know any such thing....
isn't it odd that so many people who got married and commited to a person
    that they just knew they were going to love forever and ever and
    ever ended up in a nasty, messy, angry and hurtful divorce?
    guess their foresight failed  them.
    
    when i meet a person that i get crazy over (and she reciprocates) then
    we work out an arrangement.
    	we date only each other until one or the other wants to change
    this.
    	we promise to try real hard not to hurt each other and to try
    real hard and work at making the relationship a very positive and
    fulfilling one for as long as it lasts...
    	it doesn't matter how long it lasts....
    	we don't COMMIT to staying together forever, death do us part,
    regardless of how badly we get along or how much we want out of
    the relationship....
    	because i, and the women i've had relationships with, were not
    gifted with the ability to see the future, we recognize that we don't
    know what will happen....
    	today's happily commited love could be tomorrows tragic triple
    murder suicide love affair headline...
    	
  
627.32COGMK::CHELSEAMostly harmless.Mon Dec 19 1988 22:2410
    Re: .31
    
    >today's happily commited love could be tomorrows tragic triple
    >murder suicide love affair headline...
    
    It could also be tomorrow's happily committed love.  If we held
    back from doing things because something bad might happen, we'd
    probably never do anything at all.  Any decision of significance
    is a risk; the question is whether the individual thinks the risk
    is worth it.
627.33love=manipulationSSDEVO::YOUNGERNever dream with a cynicTue Dec 27 1988 18:567
    Re .30
    
                  -< "love & committment': a label to manipulate by >-
    
    Hear!  Hear!  I've come to the conclusion that love=manipulation!
    
    Elizabeth
627.34love=manipulation if you want it toMCIS2::AKINSMy BRAIN hurtz!!!Wed Dec 28 1988 05:514
    reply: .33
    
    Not if you don't let it become that....It's up to you...
    
627.35Anonymous replyBRONS::BURROWSJim BurrowsFri Jan 13 1989 15:37146
        The following is a reply from a member of our community who
        wishes to remian annonymous:

re: Note 627.0            I'm in love and don't know what to do           34 replies
QUARK::HR_MODERATOR                                  70 lines  17-NOV-1988 11:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

History .. That's the chronology of past events, as viewed through some ones
interpretation of the 'true' facts. I'll give a man's viewpoint,based on
personal history. 

(If its still there, search HR for "Temporary Relationships"... 


>few times but then along came (I'll call him Mike).  Well, we went out to 
>dinner on our first date (the week after I met him) and I can honestly say 
>that I started falling in love with him that night.  I kept thinking - it's 

Who's to say what it is, as long as it feels good. Based on subsequent
statements, anyone better than your own "previous history" will seem good. 

>only infatuation or something like that so I didn't say anything to him.  

>We were also intimate that night all night and couldn't believe how "right" it 
>felt for both of us and how much we have in common.

Many people have lots of things in common, especially if you like them. Its
when things turn sour that we begin to notice the DIFFERENCES in the way we
are,and how THEY are.This is an especially frustrating point for me, because I
did have a wonderful relationship, and sometime AFTER marriage I began to get
little 'barbs' about what I wasn't good at (like general socialization, etc). 

>Anyway, we both decided we would take things slow because we both were coming 
>out of bad relationships and also we both had other problems.  But, it wasn't 
>going as slow as it should have.  Anyway, he would ask me 3 or 4 times now if 
>there was any chance at all I'd go back with my ex (there definitely isn't) 
>and then he would say things like he doesn't want any commitments etc...so I 
>told him not to worry - we can be friends and need each other and be with each 
>other but not have any commitments.  He said he didn't want me falling in 

When I left the previous marriage I found a wonderful gal who seemed to feel
similar to what you describe. I was great. The physical side was fabulous. She 
did fall in love, in spite of our tacit agreement not to do so. Several aspects
were really great, but there were 'flaws' in her personality which would've
made a long term commitment non-viable. Finally, when we did break it off
(read: I left) the anguish she felt was so deep that I vowed to never again to
enter into a "temporary" relationship, unless it in fact was for only a few
weeks or so (it went on for two years). 


>love with him and end up hurt in the long run.  I told him it's okay - that 
>I wasn't in love with him (I didn't want to tell him the truth because I 
>didn't want him to get scared off) and we would take it one step at a time and 
>if one of us or both of us fell in love we did and if we didn't then we 
>didn't.  

One of the things I learned in good 'singles' club; was the emotional
volatility of 'just separated' and 'recently divorced' people. The amount of
self doubt, reflection, 'why me', or 'we couldas' really take their toll. I
have no doubt that what you feel is genuine affection,and he for you ... but,
there's always a BUT ... the risk you are taking by trying to 'back into' a
good relationship is very high. 

Think a moment .. was your LAST relationship good at first ?? All of mine were
... and generally it was varying amounts of time later that they fell apart ...
from 2 weeks to 15 years .... 


>I've seen him several times and he calls about twice a week as do I.  
>When we are together we are real happy.  He keeps telling me he's "confused" 
>and has a hard time resisting me when I'm with him.

Frankly, if I were in his position and found someone so delightful I'd have a
hard time resisting, also. (I think my brain is in my penis ... sometimes.) 

>Well, I had invited him over for dinner one Saturday night and he couldn't
>make it. That was okay - I was a little disappointed but no problem. 
>Then I talked to him on that Sunday night and he wasn't feeling well so our 
>conversation was one sided - I was doing the talking - he was giving me "yes" 
>and "no" answers.  I kept asking him what's wrong but he wouldn't tell me.

People, can be moody, especially if they are uncertain. If possible, accept
this person as a friend .. someone to talk to ... but give him space, and
yourself also ... the 'average' time to recover between relationships is about
two years, then more time to develop another relationship. Some people take
longer, some less. To me, i "hear" this man saying : "CAUTION: BACK OFF ... I
am hurt, and I need to recover, and I'm not sure I wan to take the first great
person to come along .. no matter how good it feels. I need time to adjust ...
to experiment (maybe), and to enjoy life as it now exists." 


>So I said okay - bye.  Then he called me back about an hour or so later, I 
>told him I couldn't talk but to call me back - he did and again I couldn't 
>talk - someone in my house said I was sick and would get back to him within 
>the week.  Well he called me on Monday night and the first words out of his 
>mouth were "Don't hang up".  I didn't.  We talked and I told him I had 

>something to say but wrote it in a letter - I couldn't tell him on the phone.  
>He was upset about that. I told him how I had gone out Friday night and danced 
>all night and he had said how many slow dances with different guys?  I said 
>not any and he said sure but then he said "well it doesn't matter cause I 
>don't care anyway" then I asked him about his Saturday night - he went out 
>partying all night and got home the next morning and I had said well were you 
>with another woman and he said he was with lots of women and men - friends.  

Maybe you both really do care, but need the "illusion" of not caring because
you need time to heal from the old hurts .. even though this one feels good.


>Then we started talking about other things and he said the only reason he 
>called was to make sure I was okay.  Then he said that it was none of my 
>concern if he was with another woman - I agreed to him.  

>Anyway, from our conversations - I get the impression that he is falling in 
>love with me but he keeps pushing me away saying I should see other men, I'm 
>not good enough for him - (he has a low self-esteem).  I on the other hand 
>don't want to see anyone else.  I have been searching for him all my life.  I 

When I hear someone telling me this, I shudder .. shudder because it is  a
frightening feeling to think "suddenly, I've been found" .. never realizing
I was ever lost .... 


>am being picky about who I date and he walks into my life with everything 
>I've always looked for and I'm not sure what to do.  I know I have to give him 
>"time"  that will be most advice I get I suppose.  I wrote him a long letter, 
>I told him exactly how I felt and that if he didn't want to see me again that 
>I'd be okay and I'd understand.  I know he got the letter.  It's been 3 days 
>now.  I haven't herd from him and I want to call him so bad.  Should I call 
>him?  Should I just suffer through it? I really love him and I love being with 
>him and I know it's mutual but he won't come out and say it and I'm really 
>frustrated over it.  I'm sure from our conversations and the few people I've 
>talked to that he is falling in love but is scared.....I keep thinking I'll 
>call him - what exactly do I have to lose if I do right? or Wrong?

People who have "everything" usually have some flaws as well ... If I were the
one to get such a letter; I would turn and run like heck the other way ....
When I came out of my marriage, the LAST thing I wanted was to have someone
"get hooked" on me. No matter what we "SAY" we want; and no matter how much we
WANT to control our feelings and avoid manipulation .... there is a distinct
HUMAN tendency to direct events into the path we'd like them to take. 

Another lesson I've learned is this: "When someone feels they love us, we can
do no wrong. And if they fall out of love with us; we can do no right;" 

Mr. Perfect .... but ain't