Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    One thought that came to mind reading your note -- and a
    conclusion that may not be correct:
    
    It sounds like there might be a flaw in this woman -- not a
    permanent flaw, but a developmental injury.  From what you said,
    it sounds like she either has such low self-esteem that she
    believes she doesn't deserve to be loved, or for some reason,
    commonly but not always from growing up in an alcoholic or abusive
    home, learned that the only way to be in love is to be used. 
    
    I'm sure she sincerely wants to meet and love a good man, but when
    he treats her well, it's such an unusual and uncomfortable feeling
    that she tries to make it into the kind of relationship she
    learned meant love, that is, one where the man is using her. Then,
    of course, if he does use her, she can't love him any more,
    and she wonders why men are such rats.
    
    This pattern of behavior tends to repeat itself.  If she's not
    aware of it, it will probably sabotage your relationship with her,
    too.  She'll probably need counselling or a support group to help
    her work through her experiences.  It could take a long time. 
    
    You might find the book _Women_Who_Love_Too_Much_ useful in
    understanding where women of this type are coming from.  It would
    probably help you figure out if this really is a danger in this
    relationship or whether summarizing a relationship in 20 lines left
    out some key differences. 

    --bonnie

    
    	Perhaps she feels that she needs to be that giving in order
    to deserve anything in return. 
    
    	Perhaps your love for her - as a person - is unacceptable
    to her because she really does not love herself as a person.
    
    	Perhaps this is why she tells you that she doesnt love you.
    
    	Maybe she repeats this pattern because she knows this behavior
    will inevitably reinforce her poor self esteem. Note how quickly
    she accepted your decision to terminate the relationship (a negative)
    and how that was initially irreversable.
    
    	She's kept the negative value of "your rejection", but perhaps
    it's "supportive" effect has worn off by now. Is she ready for another 
    go around to the same end? Make sure this doesnt happen - with you,
    or, with anyone else!!!
    
    	Joe Jas            

    re: .0
    
    Your note has a familiar 'ring' to it, and I'll try to explain why
    this seems so.
    
    Somewhere there is another note, either here or womannotes, but
    from the womans perspective, of being exceptionally generous with
    people he/she likes, and constantly being taken advantage of.
    
    In some of the replies was the query "is this person sick in some
    way ?". In the final replies (there were quite  few as I recall)
    someone suggested (sorry for my vagueness. I may be remembering
    inaccurately, and inserting my own opinion.) .. in one or
    more of the later replies somone suggested that "SOME" people tend
    to remain in "failure" or "used" mode, because that was their pattern
    of living. To make the break from that pattern forces them into
    a very uncomfortable situation because ... niceness .. isn't what
    they are used to. If one were to confront such a person, their response
    would MOST likely be: "B*** S***" i'm being self destuctive !!
    
    Perhaps someone else knows where this other note is, as it seemed
    to address this type of situation very nicely.

    Love, per se, is  a very eleusive term, in spite of its popularity.
    If I can find this other  reference, I'l include it later.
    
    Bob    
    

    I believe that "other note" that might be helpful is #21(?) in
    MYRRH::SELF_HELP

I don't believe that people who are naturally generous have something wrong with
them.  People who stay in abusive situations, yes, but merely being generous?

RE: .0

A lot depends on how you react to her lifesytle of being generous.  If you
can enjoy it, and her, and not abuse her, then go with it; if not...

Jim

    I was in a situation a long time ago where I broke up with someone
    that I lived with for a year.  The breakup was hardly friendly;
    it wouldn't be completely inaccurate to say we hated each other at
    that time.  A year later I used a ploy (returned some stuff back
    to her) which got us talking again.  We kissed and made up, so to
    speak.  Although we stopped going together several months later
    (I remembered why we broke up originally -- one of us (me) wasn't
    mature enough to handle the situation), I'm very glad that we did
    talk things out.  A lot can happen in a year and people do change.
    If she wasn't married and we had started talking again today (5-7
    years later), who knows?
    
    Now, to answer your note: you summed it up:
    
>>>	b.	Am glowing inside at the thought of even seeing her again. 
>>>		In retrospect, I see that she is a wonderful woman and I have 
>>>		to wonder where my mind was when I broke it off. 

    You're point about her just getting out of a relationship is a very
    good one.  In this man's opinion, however, it would be foolish to
    not at least start talking with her.  Don't sleep with her and don't
    stay over at her apartment, though.  It's real tempting, especially
    when there's so much past history, but when you rush things like
    that it doesn't give the relationship enough room to grow.  Afterall,
    it has been a while and you both have probably changed during that
    time.  If you really liked her, by not talking with her now you
    might always be wondering "what if..."  
    
    As to would it be a mistake to renew the relationship -- if you
    both like each other and you get along with her better than anyone
    else you've met, then how can it be a mistake?  Beware if you see
    exactly the same things happening all over again, unless you can
    react to them differently.  If you find that you don't love her
    (something you seemed to hint at), then breaking up is probably
    the best recourse.  You both will eventually become miserable again.
    But if you find you do love her...

       
       
       	I'd go back.. But slower.. Take your time... Lets face it, she's a
       giving person, someone who really gives of themselves freely, and
       she's probably gonna start right back doing what she did. But tell
       her that although you appreciate it with all your heart, you feel
       the best this is for YOU to take that part slower.. So you can
       learn to cope with someone so giving.. (That is, if you haven't 
       already)
       
       	Why do I say this? Cuz I'm very much like her..
       
       							mike

    You have answered your own question already.  If it is feelings
    you are interested in, then there shouldn't be a problem. If it is
    something else, then there most likely will be.
    
    

    For some reason, your note sounded alarm signals inside me, and
    I haven't quite put my finger on why yet.  Perhaps it's because
    I used to be incredibly like your friend.  There is a point where
    giving too freely may have "secret hooks" involved.  By over-giving,
    this lady may be trying to encourage you to become more dependent
    on her to the point that you can't live without her.  My former
    therapist called this a "sick dependency" fostered by a need to
    control the other person.  Those of us who have had backgrounds
    where we felt we had to "buy" another's love and affection, frequently
    have (or had) low self-esteem and a need to feel more in control of our
    lives than a person who felt love and esteemed in their earlier
    years.  The act of loving implies vulnerability--the opening up
    and letting down of your defenses so the the beloved can really
    "zap" you if he/she chooses.  It also implies mutual trust in that
    your partner won't use the opportunity to cause you unnecessary
    pain.  It doesn't sound quite like your lady is ready for that yet.
    Perhaps, over time, that could change.
    
    I would encourage you to listen to your "gut level feelings" on
    seeing her again.  Since this is no longer a full-blown relationship,
    make it a point to go slowly, and stress some good verbal
    communications to help you build a strong foundation for possible
    future involvement.  Try to get her to agree to tell you her real
    feelings about things and be open enough to share your feelings
    of guilt and insecurity her former giving caused you; that would
    be a good place to start rebuilding feelings.  Please let us know
    what happens, since I believe all of us are hoping for the best
    for you in this situation.
    
    Good Wishes-
    Barb
                                                      

I understand how -.1 feels about an overgiving person needing to buy love.
But I don't feel that that is necessarily the case.  It is possible to be
very giving without 'needing' to give.

A good test of this is to try relating on a 'one for one' level for a while,
and see if the person is capable of stopping giving.

I had this problem with one person.  Someone who insists on doing laundry and
ironing for me, regardless that I told her that I didn't want her to iron my
stuff, and that I was quite capable of doing my own laundry.  I don't think that
she 'needed' to buy my love exactly, but it is akin to that. 

Jim.

    
    
    	This situation sounds a little familiar.  I was raised in
    an alcoholic family.  And I learned that the only way to recieve
    what I knew love to be was to do things to get it.  I was always
    giving of myself and many times never recieved the love I wanted.
    I carried this mind set into the first serious relationship I
    had.  Fortunately or unfortunately,  the man I was involved with
    was also brought up in an alcoholic family.
    
    	So at first we both were doing things beyond the realm of
    normal giving.  Each of us were using the techniques we had both
    learned as children to recieve love.  After a while we both 
    started suffocating each other.  We were smothering each other
    trying to show our love for each other.  Thankfully,  I got
    a hold of a children of alcoholic's book.  In it I found
    the reason for our continuing love patterns.
    
    	Fortunately, and with much patience , we both recognized
    our problems and worked to change them.  We now have a great
    relationship which has lasted 3+ years.  
    
    How does this relate to your situation?  Well this woman for
    whatever reason is afraid to get emotionally close to a man.
    I know because I was and it took a very long time for the
    walls to come down.  But I was lucky enough to meet someone
    who was just as scared as I was.  So we worked through our
    walls together.  I'm not just talking your ordinary walls.
    When you grow up in an alcoholic situation, you don't
    want to love anyone because the people who love you also
    hurt you emotionally when they are drinking.  So these
    walls of distrust are fortified every time hurt occurs.
    Unfortunately , It is a defense mechanism which takes a very
    long time to overcome and change.
    
    	She was giving you everything to make you love her.
    But she wouldn't allow herself to trust you enough not
    to hurt her.  The way she shut off her emotions after
    your breakup is a very strong indication that she should
    seek help to break her pattern and find the cause.
    Unfortunately,  I don't think you should go back to her
    until she recongnizes her problem.  You will only end
    up getting hurt in the end.  REMEMBER she will shut off
    her emotions to avoid the hurt.  And she probably does that
    very well.
    
    	My advice is to try to see her as a friend  not as a lover.
    Don't take advantage of the things she will try to give you.
    Talk to her and try to get her to see her problem.  If you
    really want a relationship with this woman, she has to learn
    to trust you.  In this case, it will take a long time.
    But by getting to know her slowly  and not allowing her
    to continue the same pattern with you,  you may just get
    what you want.
    
    I wish you both the best of luck!!  
    PS  don't go into this thinking you can change her.  Until she
    wants to change herself nothing will happen.
    
    Michele

       
       
       	Funny how alcohol popped up, huh?  I'm the adult child of an
       alcohol too.. (and yes, I recognize most everything I do is
       partly caused by being one.. I've been dealing with it for years..)
       
       							mike

    
    Alcoholism seems to be the answer to 50% of the notes in this file.
    People hurt other people without the involvement of alcohol. They
    do it for selfish reasons, and many others. I've have been hurt
    many times. I used to be a very generous person. Not anymore because
    the people I gave to didn't appreciate what I was doing, took me
    for granted and it hurts. (They were not alcohol related either.)
    Now, I hesitate a great deal before I do anything for anyone. Some
    call me cold, but I refuse to be hurt again and I'm only protecting
    myself...selfish eh?
    
    

I don't know...

I know that I am able to give to others without feeling threatened about being
hurt.  I think it has to do with what reaction you expect when you give.  If I
don't have any expectations, I am less likely to be hurt, and more likely to be
pleasently surprised.

Jimb. 

    Sometimes relationships fail because people just aren't ready for
    them.  Maybe you (both?) have matured over those two years, and
    now are ready for a close relationship that you weren't ready for
    then.  Another possibility is that you've forgotten the exact feelings
    that made you break it off before; on the other hand, maybe you
    can deal with that now, or maybe she has changed and there won't
    be any problem.  From the excitement you described, I think you
    should see each other, and see how it goes - give it a chance.
    I've noticed in myself that it's sometimes much easier to communicate
    honestly with someone after I've been away from them for a considerable
    time.  Like when you start a relationship with someone, you don't
    say certain things because you don't want to throw a monkey wrench
    into things.  But later, it's safe - you don't have anything to
    lose.  And it takes honest communication and listening to make a good 
    relationship.  It just struck me that you sound as though you might
    be ready for something that you weren't ready for the first time
    - commitment, maybe.
    
    I wouldn't be surprised if she said she didn't love you, because
    you told her you didn't love her.  If she was anxious to please
    you, and you didn't want her to love you, of course that's what
    she'd say.
    
    As for her taking the breakup so well, maybe she just didn't let
    you see how hurt she was because she didn't want to cause you pain.
    If she really *wasn't* very hurt, maybe she (like I learned at one
    time) learned to turn off her feelings.  Someone I dated for over
    a year repeatedly hurt my feelings by treating me like a yoyo. 
    After a while, I learned to turn the feelings off to avoid disappointment.
    Once you've learned to do that, it takes *knowing* someone loves
    you and will be there when you need them (and sometimes when you
    don't), a lot of time and understanding to develop the kind of trust
    where you can let go of that defense mechanism, and learn to feel
    deeply again.
                                                  
    Good luck whatever you decide.  It sounds like it's worth a try,
    anyway. 
    
    Paula

       
       
       	You're such a card Zarlenga....  {:-)}
       
       						mike

    Re: .0
    
    I sincerely hestitate to offer a reply to what is truly a complex
    and profoundly troubled situation.
    
    With this in mind the Base-Noter should be aware that the woman in
    question is exhibiting is what seems to be demonstrated in epic
    proportions these days; although his description of this womans
    behavior is an extreme expression of;  "Low Self Esteem." 
    
    When one has a poor image of one's self for real or imagined reasons;
    whether that self perception has been wrongly inculcated by another or
    the individual has done certain things that have compromised her own
    values (ethics); a radical self-punishment syndrome can take over as the
    individual tries to "atone" or become worthy *or* self castigates herself
    by allowing herself to be mistreated and abused.                 
    
    I would suggest to this individual that if he feels anything for
    her, then he can be of significant help. He can be the one to guide her and
    restore her through professional counceling and his supportive presence
    to help her realize and face the destructive behavior that will affect her
    adversely in greater ways as time goes on.
    
    I don't want to be an alarmist but when one considers situations
    in the "extreme" . . . suicide *might* be the end result of such
    comportment.                          
    
    
    
    

	Yep - I am an ACOA also.  And have found out, during my recovery, 
that you don't need to be a product of alcoholic homes to have problems 
with relationships, just the product of a dysfunctional family and "they" 
say that 95% of families in American have some dysfunction in them.

	I am also co-moderator of a notesfile that deals with ACOA issues.  
If you feel you are one, or or dealing with someone who is, please send 
mail for access as it is a membership only notesfile.

	Angeline

    
    My advice to you is to listen to Note 538.11.  She hit the nail
    right on the head.  
    
    
    Good luck to you!
    Follow you heart but make sure it doesn't get broken.
    :-)
    
    Chris
    

    re .0
    
    There is a word for people who act like your former lover.  That
    word is CoDependant.  She is almost surely from an alcoholic or
    otherwise disfunctional home.  She needs help.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    
    Anybody remember the old song (circa 1965) by the Lovin' Spoonful
    called "You didn't have to be so nice"?