Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    One thought I had upon reading your note, when it comes to meeting
    and developing relationships with women, is that they may be afraid
    you are trying to find a new mother for your child(ren).  By that,
    I don't mean that they won't develop a relationship with you and
    your child(ren), but that they are afraid the moment they acquiesce
    to a relationship, they must immediately take up all the wifely-and
    -motherly duties.  This may be highly unrealistic on their part,
    but may be understandable.  The last thing I'd want to do when
    developing a relationship with a man is immediately become
    babysitter/chore-doer/transporter/stepmother to his child(ren).

    I think the stigma that child-rearing has among men is related to
    the concept some men have that "child raising is not a man's thing".  
    Although it is perfectly acceptable to these people for a man to 
    raise a child in conjunction with a woman (which makes it clear
    that she is the "mother" and perhaps does the "primary care" part
    of the child-rearing), sometimes they can't understand WHY a man
    would want to take over the whole thing.  Perhaps they don't understand
    what YOU get out of the deal (child-raising has some remarkable
    payoffs - emotionally, mentally, developmentally, etc), or perhaps
    they can't imagine giving up their "free time" for anything they
    see as being so mundane or "un-macho".  
    
    Also, some people believe that men can't raise children right. 
    I am of the mind that some PEOPLE can't raise children right, be
    they men or women, and that's primarily because they are not interested
    enough in doing a good job, or don't spend enough time/energy to
    do a good job.
    
    A man raising a child is as natural as a woman raising a child -
    the only thing that is against it is culture and tradition.
    
    more power to you
    
    -Jody
    
    

    Good news!  You're NOT alone.  I was single parent with 5 children
    still at home for several years.  When an interested man would query
    me as to children at home and I answered that I had five, kiss off
    any dating!  They all headed the other direction.  At first, I felt
    rather defensive about the situation, but I finally found it rather
    amusing to watch my would-be suitors' shocked expressions and
    stammering replies as they tried to extricate themselves from a
    now undesirable situation.  You can imagine my surprise when I met
    someone who thought I was special enough to date and that children
    were no hindrance.  I was NOT looking for a father for my children.
    I just happened to find one.
    
    In your situation, I greatly admire anyone, male or female, who
    is caring enough to love and provide a home for their children.
    I would love to have had a father who cared enough to raise me,
    and I feel that your children are very lucky.  Good for you!
    
    Barb

    It doesn't take five kids -- one will do the trick, especially
    if you didn't get married first.
    
    But I eventually found out that the only people who were scared
    off by my situation were the people who were so shallow and
    insecure they couldn't deal with anything they hadn't seen on
    "Leave It To Beaver."   They were people I didn't need to know.
    Maybe I didn't have as wide a circle of acquaintances or as active
    a social life as I did before Kat was born, but I had better
    friends and eventually found a one-in-a-million partner. 
    
    I admit I was shocked by the number of shallow and insecure people
    there are in the world, and it's not easy to learn to cope by
    yourself.  And I expect, given the sexism of society, that a
    single father might take more obvious flak than a single mother. 
    
    But I'm curious -- are complete strangers always trying to marry
    you off?  Fending off offers of blind dates arranged by
    well-meaning acquaintances who couldn't imagine that I was able to
    cope by myself was the most annoying thing that happened to me in
    my single-parent years. 

    --bonnie    

    Bonnie,
    
    	Does the fact that I don't want children (at least right now
    and for the forseeable future) make me "shallow and insecure"?  Single
    parents don't shock me, but I don't continue to read notes in the
    Singles conference past the mention of children. 
    
    	I don't like most children, and I make no secret of it.
    
    	Don't get me wrong, I didn't take .3 as a personal attack in
    any way, I just thought your wording was a bit too much of a blanket
    statement about people who don't want to get involved with single
    parents.
    
    						--Doug

    
    	RE: .5 by PBA::GIRARD
    
    	 Since when does loving someone mean you HAVE to love
    	children?
    
    	 I'm a single parent, but I can understand someone not
    	wanting to get involved because I am a parent. What's
    	so damn bad about that?  Should they lie to themself
    	and you and claim they just love the little darlings?
    	As much as I love my kids (two), I don't expect every
    	single person on the face of this earth will also love
    	them. Face it, not everyone sees the world thru the same
    	colored glasses you do. If you love kids, fine, but don't
    	put down and call shallow the ones that don't. It's alot better
    	they acknowledge to themself and everyone that fact rather
    	than hide it and maybe become a child abuser later on. If
    	you don't like kids, fine, be up front and say so, if someone
    	don't like, it's their problem not yours.
    

    Not committing to a permanent relationship because you're not
    ready for the parenthood the other already has is one thing,
    cancelling an after-class drink when you find out I have a
    daughter [which happened more than once in my single-parent days]
    is quite another matter. 

    Relationships with a single parent are more complex, I grant you
    that.  There are many non-shallow reasons why such a relationship
    might not work.  But rejecting a person you're interested in
    *solely because you find out s/he is a parent* means you're buying
    into unexamined stereotypes about parents, children, and yourself. 

    You're stereotyping yourself if you assume a date for dinner
    obligates you to play parent.  You assume the only way you can
    relate to not-adults is as some sort of parent figure.  
    
    Refusing to even consider a relationship with a single parent also
    means you assume, without taking into account either your
    personality or the parent's, that you have to relate to a parent
    in a different way than you would "a person I'm interested in."
    You reduce the single parent to that one dimension, regardless of
    what other similarities you may have, and then decide that person
    isn't eligible to be a social or sexual person because of it. 
    
    You're stereotyping the children by saying, "I don't like kids",
    as if all kids of all ages were the same and had personalities cut
    from a mold. Try saying "I don't like old people" or "I don't like
    software engineers" and see how it sounds.  

    Very few people stop seeing someone they're interested in because
    they don't like the other person's mother.  They may eventually
    break up because they can't get along with the mother, but the
    dislike is seldom enough to stop them from exploring the
    relationship in the first place.  

    I'm sorry, but I'm going to stick by what I said:  rejecting a
    person strictly because they have kids, before you have a chance
    to know the person or the kids, is shallow behavior. 

    --bonnie

    
    	RE: .7
    	  Bonnie, I feel it is a stereotype to assume all adults
    	should like kids. What is wrong with someone not liking
    	kids, is it not the way they feel? I don't buy into the
    	line that kids will always bring nothing but joy and
    	happiness into ones life.
    
    	 Another little nit, why should someone consider dating
    	a single parent, knowing full well they hate kids? What
    	would be the sense of doing same, after all if the person
    	is searching for a lasting relationship why bother when
    	you know it won't work. If you felt that there is no way
    	you could ever live with a person that say was bald, why
    	then would you date bald men? Somehow the logic doesn't
    	add up. It's easier for some to never start a relationship
    	than it is to break it off later on if one of the parties
    	start to serious, also alot less pain.

    	Children aren't pets - you can't leave them home with a bowl
    of food for the weekend while you and your SO head for the Cape.
    They get upset if you decide at the last minute to spend the night
    at the party your attending...  You can't ask the neighbors to feed
    them once a day while you're out of town....
    
    	I've thought about this for some time. Dating someone with children
    comes with responsibilities that I do not choose to accept at this
    time, and were I to date someone and not accept the responsibilities,
    then all parties would be worse for the experience.  I hardly consider
    that shallow.
    
    	The notes in Singles that say "no beards" are shallow - beards
    can be changed.  Children can't be discarded on the doorsteps of
    orphanages any more.  If it hurts, don't do it...
    
    			--Doug_who's_both_bald_and_bearded...

    I've been a single parent for two years now, and have not noticed
    a dearth of women willing to get involved with me simply because
    I have a child.  On the contrary, to many women, especially those
    who are single parents themselves, it is an attraction - especially
    if the single father appears caring and competent.
    
    The way I look at it, any woman who doesn't like children is a woman
    I'm not interested in, so it doesn't bother me if she's not interested
    in me.  My son is part of me - though in my particular arrangement,
    there are times when he is not with me, there are an equal number
    of times that he is, and he will be an important aspect of any
    relationship I have with a woman.  I've been pleased to find that
    most of the women I have met like my son and enjoy his company.
    I consider him an asset, not a liability.
    
    				Steve

    
    
    When I was single (note the past tense) and a parent (that's
    present tense!), I had no interest in dating men who did not
    care for children.  I would have been angry if a man had started
    dating me, and then told me at a later date that he was not in-
    terested in pursuing the relationship, simply because I have a
    child.  I made in clear from the start that Jamey and I were a
    package deal.  I also made it clear that I was not interested
    in casual dating.  
    
    I don't find it 'shallow' that a person would not date a person
    with children. I find it honest.
    
    As an aside, I did date a man who was rather 'iffey' about children.
    He thought he didn't like them but wasn't sure.  That man is now
    my husband, and a very devoted and proud stepfather.  I agree with
    the person who stated that 'not all children are alike'...Chuck
    understands children much better now;  he still does not want to
    be around the majority of kids for any period of time.  Come to
    think of it, neither do I.  If I were single again, I probably would
    not date a man with children...or I would have doubts about the
    situation.
    
    

    Dealing with someone elses children can be difficult but it can
    be very rewarding as much as if they were your own.  Dealing with
    the ex-spouse and the unresolved baggage is the killer.

    
    Out here, the more visible a man's children, the less 
    favorable a woman's reaction will be. 
    
    Most would rather not be bothered with such a man.  

    Again siding with Bonnie...
    
    With clear glasses on: Some one who clearly stops reading a Singles
    ad with the mention of children is think of his/herself first not
    of what he/she can give to a relationship.  
    
    The same old "meet market" scenario.  I want a person X-high, X-color,
    X-weight, X-hair, no kids, my way, my type, my everything.  Leaves
    a lot of doors shut including the children, who are human beings
    also. And ignores what is really important in another person, emotions!

    I think .12 needs some amplification. There are a lot of problems
    with dating a person with children - 
    
    -The 'other' demands on her time, nurturing, and attention (romance
     takes *time*)
    -the intrusions of the ex - joint custody is a never-ending game
     of chickenshit. Bring the kid back on Sunday night stoked up on
     candy, dirty from head to toe, tired and cranky. "Oh, I can't 
     take him this weekend." 
    -the disagreements about child-raising
    -her (or his) priorities
    -the child's perceived rivalry for Mama's atention/love
    
    The good part - 
    
    -she knows what she wants and needs
    -she's more stable
    -she *has* priorities
    -she values leisure time more

    Currently dating my second woman-with-a-kid in a row. 
    First one only saw the father in court hassles. Second has
    joint custody. Prefer the first. Accept the second. Because
    she is who she is.
    
    Dana

    
    	Just a small little point I wanted to bring out after reading
    	.12, since I read it as "If I date a single parent, I have to
    	worry about caring for the child". Maybe that wasn't the intent,
    	but it came across like that when I read it. 
    
    	 I have never asked a woman I have dated to guide my children,
    	thank you, I can do just fine myself!! To me that would be one
    	of the quickest ways to end a relationship, I am not looking
    	for a mother for my kids and would not welcome anyone trying
    	to form a relationship with me and also trying to play mother
    	to my kids. If there's anything I hate it's dating a woman a
    	couple of times then she thinks she has free reins to determine
    	my childs behaviour.

    There's been alot said about the single parent.....
    
    What about the single non-parent who is dating the single parent.
    If/when the relationship "runs-a-muck" and ends, the single non-parent
    not only loses his/her SO, but also loses the relationship he/she
    has developed with the child(ren).
    
    No matter how you look at it, single parents dating each other or
    single parent/single non-parent dating each other is difficult,
    but worth it!
    
    P.
    

    re: .18
    
    The idea of comparing the discovery of another human being's
    thoughts and feelings and the development of a commitment to
    endure life's storms with the purchase of a car is almost enough
    to make me retch. 
    
    And comparing children to a car stereo or an automatic
    transmission, as unacceptable features of the relationship you're
    buying, pushes it over the line. 
    
    My God, can't you see that these "children" we're talking about
    like baggage left off after camp are PEOPLE -- living, breathing,
    growing, caring, often suffering people with opinions, interests,
    feelings, insights, strengths, and potentials just like any other
    person we know? 

    One of my absolute, no compromise standards was that I wouldn't
    marry out of my religion.  I believe deeply in the power of a
    mutual Christian relationship and I thought it was the only kind
    of relationship worth having. 
    
    Then I met Neil.  And thank God I gave him the chance.  It's been
    difficult at times since I have strong religious feelings and he
    has almost none, but I've never doubted that our relationship is
    as God intended -- and teaches me again and again not to prejudge
    people on the basis of my own inadequate, shallow standards. I'm
    not very good at it yet, but I'm getting better.  And every time I
    overcome a prejudice, I find a new and valued friend. 
    
    I'm not saying that anyone has to like children, or single
    parents, or bald people, or smokers.  All I'm asking is that
    you give people a chance instead of checking them off on a
    shopping list at some emotional department store.
    
    --bonnie

    RE: .18
    
    Maybe the reason there ARE so many single parents is that children
    are considered baggage.  Buying a car compared to starting a rela-
    tionship ---  how sad!

    Re: .15
    
    Joint custody doesn't have to be the ugly picture as you paint it.
    In my son's case, it is working out quite well, thank you.
    
    Re: .13 
    
    Bob, you are generalizing a bit much, I think.  Your "out here"
    covers a wide range of people.  I'm sure there are many women who
    would be attracted to a man with children.
    
    				Steve

    I think Doug has a point. I know a variety of people, male and female,
    single and married and divorced, all of whom really *dislike* children.
    They have no patience with children, no desire to know children
    and will go out of their way to avoid being around children. 
    
    Now, this may or may not be their loss, but for someone who has these
    sort of feelings about dealing with children, I see no problem in their
    excluding children from their lives. I see this as an analogous
    situation of the person who is allergic to smoke, choosing to exclude
    smokers from their life. Sure, they'll miss out knowing some neat
    people, but that's their decision. Just because children are part of
    life for a lot of people, doesn't mean that other people can't decide
    that there is no place in *their* life for them. Again, it means
    possibly missing out knowing some neat people, but that's their life. 
    
    I think I tend to see this as paralleling medical problems because
    the reactions I've seen from people who can't stand kids, verge
    on the anxiety/asthma/migraine attack type behaviors.
                                                                         
    Tamzen

    Though I do not now, nor will I ever have children (out of biological
    default more than anything else) I do sometimes have a fairly strong
    reaction to some children.  That is, some of them I like, and some
    of them I do not like (sort of makes them sound like _people_, doesn't
    it?).  That's why I have a hard time understanding the general
    catigorization of "I do like kids" or "I don't like kids".  What
    _is_ a kid, after all, if not an underdeveloped person.
    
    Marion

Bonnie,
    
        I think we're at the "agree to disagree" point in this discussion.
    One of the problems is that children are a much more emotional topic
    than transmissions.
    
    	I realize children are people, (and my comments earlier about
    them being a different case from beards is directly related to that.)
    That's at least part of the reason I am bothered by the "shallow"
    label.  There are probably better labels for people who *do* believe
    that children are baggage.
    
    	As for "give them a chance" - I have lots of friends who have
    kids.  People I like very much.  Mostly, I don't like their kids.
    Sometimes, I even permit children in my home.  When I do though,
    I know they are going to be leaving again.  I also let my friends
    smoke in my home, even though it causes me physical discomfort,
    because I know they will be gone and the smoke will dissipate.
    I could not live with a smoker.
    
    	I'm glad that you overcame one of your absolute requirements
    and I hope you're happy.  I may even have children myself someday,
    but that is going to mean a change in my overall point of view about
    children.
    
    	I've had one relationship end because I wouldn't "come to Jesus"
    and one because I wasn't Jewish.  I have no formal religion and
    religion isn't an issue from my side of the fence.  I don't complain
    about the people that won't date atheists, but neither do I answer the
    ads in Singles that say "looking for man with strong Christian beliefs."
    Would I be doing anyone a favor by answering the ones that say "you
    must like children as I have (n) little darlings and they are the most
    important things in my life?" 
    
    	I also think that you (in .18) and the author of .19 took the
    analogy a little farther than I had intended.  The analogy was on
    making decisions, not on treating children like transmissions or
    "buying" a relationship.  We face these kinds decisions time and
    time again in our lives.  I'm going to ask myself these types of
    questions when I try to decide to ask someone to marry me, and I
    hope she makes a similar analysis before she answers.
    
    	Maybe what you can accuse me of is trying to be too rational
    and not romantic enough.  Call me a cynic, but I don't think I really
    believe that love conquers all.  I believe you have to ask some
    serious questions up front.
    
    						--Doug

    This note is entered for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    *************************************************************************
    
    I am entering this anonymously because I am currently seeing someone
    with children and I have very mixed feelings about it.  We had become
    involved before he told me about the children, and to this point we
    have had only one major *issue* because of them.  But I am leery about
    continuing the relationship, based on my feelings and his expectations
    about the kids *involvement* in the relationship.  So until we resolve
    some issues I'll take advantage of the cloak of anonymity so that I
    don't add any fuel to an already potentially explosive situation. 

    There are a lot of things that Doug and I don't agree on but this is
    one instance that I will strongly support his views.  Not all of us
    have a *parenting instinct*, we don't all want to raise and love
    children.  It's not that we dislike people who do, or think them wrong,
    we just do not want to participate in the activity on a full or a part
    time basis.  Getting involved with a single parent means that there is
    a potential that the child/children will become part of your life. 

    Why is it shallow to be honest and say I don't want children, therefore
    I will not date a single parent.  Is this really any more shallow than
    saying I am not interested in a homosexual relationship therefore I
    won't date a homosexual. Now before you start flaming me for comparing
    homosexuality to children, stop, count to 10 and take a deep breath.
    What I am comparing is situations, and ones where I do have a choice.
    Yes in both cases I am potentially missing out on meeting a lot of
    wonderful people.  But we are not talking about acquaintances and
    friendships, what we seem to be discussing is the issue of DATING and
    RELATIONSHIPS.  This involves commitment to the person as well as the
    person's situation, and I don't see how you can fault someone for being
    honest enough with themselves to recognize that they don't want to be
    in that situation 

    >>  The same old "meet market" scenario.  I want a person X-high,
    X-color, >>  X-weight, X-hair, no kids, my way, my type, my everything.
    Leaves >>  a lot of doors shut including the children, who are human
    beings >>  also.  And ignores what is really important in another
    person, emotions! 

    If emotions are so important in another person, why aren't they
    important in me! Are you saying that because I don't want to have a
    child (mine or anyone else), that because I recognize in me the
    inability and/or unwillingness to rear and nurture a child, that I
    should disregard my emotions about all of this for the sake of another
    person.  Seems a bit odd to me. 

    I thought the analogy of the car was very good.  Sorry that some of you
    thought it was insulting to compare children to cars, but it was also a
    comparisons of *situations* not *subjects*.  For myself it is more
    like: I don't like chicken, I don't eat chicken, why go to a restaurant
    that only serves chicken?? Lot's of people think that's weird, they
    tell what great dishes I'm missing, but I don't like chicken.  Like
    wise I *don't* want children, why then should I start seeing someone
    who has children? 

    And why should I have to defend myself for not wanting/liking
    children?? The issue has come up about couples feeling pressure from
    family and friends to have children, and the general consensus is it's
    none of their business, do what is right for you.   So why as a single
    person, who does not want kids, do I feel attacked for choosing not to
    date someone who has children?? 

    The issue of children is not *shallow*, it is something in this day and
    age that becomes a consideration in dating.  The fact that some have
    taken a stand and said NO, seems to me to indicate strength not
    shallowness. 

                

    This is from a different anonymous noter.
    
    *************************************************************************



    I have been reading this note and subsequent replies with great
    interest as I too, am single and was involved with a single parent. The
    problem wasn't so much that I don't like kids, I *love* children, but
    being around his child was a  reminder that I'm 32 and single and
    childless.  Sure, I have nephews that I spoil, friend's kids that I
    adore and I had made many sacrifices out of love for this particular
    child. 

    The ex-wife complained when I spent too much time with her son. My
    friend complained that I didn't spend enough time with his son.  I was
    the only source of discipline this child had. (Yes, I believe a four
    year old should be told that it is NOT acceptable to throw an ice cream
    cone at a stranger). 

    Both parents feel great guilt over the divorce (3 years ago) so they
    spoil the child.  A counselor told us that the child would be setting
    fires at the age of six if he didn't get help. Neither of the parents
    has time to take the child to a counselor though.   I felt as if I had
    a huge burden on my shoulders and it was very difficult at times. I'm
    not blaming the child.  At times he was a real terror but only because
    everyone let him get away with it.  At times he was a joy to be with
    too. 

    ***  HE IS NOT MY SON!!!  ***, yet I got mixed messages about what
    responsibilities I had. Was I happy, sometimes yes, but more often no.
    I can't say I didn't try, but that experience had left me so hurt and
    exhausted that I don't think I could ever deal with another person's
    child in a serious relationship. To you single parents, yes your
    child is fantastic, great to be with etc., but I don't see him through
    YOUR eyes, I see him through my eyes and the view is different. 
    
    It is a responsibility to be involved with a single parent and I guess
    I just can't do justice to that responsibility. So why don't you just
    let me admit it, without judging me as shallow. Yes, I know when I have
    children, (in my eyes) they'll be the most perfect ;^)  but at least I
    won't force my standards on others.  Nor will I ever try to shortchange
    another single parent.  I had a lot of love to give, but apparently it
    wasn't enough to sustain the relationship. 

    

    re: .25 (anon)
    
    	Bravo!
    
    re: .19 (Bonnie)
    
    
    >>	My God, can't you see that these "children" we're talking about
    >>	like baggage left off after camp are PEOPLE -- living, breathing,
    >>	growing, caring, often suffering people with opinions, interests,
    >>	feelings, insights, strengths, and potentials just like any other
    >>	person we know?
    
    	Which is precisely why some of us don't want or aren't ready to
    	take on the responsibility of another human's development.  It's 
    	*not* wrong to not want children, whether your own or someone 
    	else's.

    >>	teaches me again and again not to prejudge people on the basis of 
    >>	my own inadequate, shallow standards.
    
    	Bonnie, we all have different concepts of what an inadquate and
    	shallow standard is.  Doesn't seem that knowing you don't want 
    	children (now or ever) is shallow--better to realize your true
    	feelings than become an inadequate or abusive parent.
    
    	Personally, I wouldn't get seriously involved with a man if he
   	had children.  I *know* I'm not ready for children, nor life's
    	compromises necessary to incorporate them into my life, at this
    	time.  Someday, maybe, but someday isn't now, and someday won't
    	be until *I* am ready.
    
    						  Carla
    

    I'm another one who doesn't particularly like children. I've never
    liked children. Although I don't remember it, I've been told that when
    I was not quite three and my mother was pregnant with my sister, I told
    a friend of the family (who ultimately ended up ten of her own) who
    insisted that all children like siblings and who had the misfortune of
    asking me if I was looking forward to a new brother or sister, "No. I'm
    doing fine by myself. I don't like kids." I'm told she was pretty
    flabbergasted, both by a child not liking children and the irony of the
    statement, "I don't like kids" coming from the mouth of someone not
    quite three.
    
    A decade later, I upset my poor father when he gave me the old, "You'll
    understand when you have kids of your own" line and I replied, "Why
    don't you explain it now. I'm not going to *have* kids of my own." 
    
    When dating, I never automatically discounted someone solely because of
    children. But it *was* a consideration. I gave the whole idea long,
    serious thought and came to the conclusion that yes, indeed, I don't
    like children. I *do*, however, understand these days why someone might
    want to do that -- in an abstract way, I see it as sort of an expensive
    hobby, much the way I humor my friends who do ham radio (another
    expensive hobby). 
    
    Now, on the other hand I *am* looking forward to the day when my nephew
    is old enough for slot cars, Dissect-an-Alien kits, chemistry sets,
    model rockets.... heh heh heh. I think I'll enjoy being an evil uncle. 

    	Jon

    There's one side of this being left out, I think.  The kids.  I
    didn't used to like kids at all (too noisy and hyperactive), but
    am starting to have second thoughts.  If I were to date someone
    with kids, I might grow to really like them.  And, heaven forbid,
    they may even like me.  Suppose that happened but the other
    relationship didn't work out quite so well?  Where does that leave
    them?

    (I will admit, however, that I am one of those scaredy-cats about
     dating someone with kids -- I'm shy enough about regular dating
     as it is.  Kids just makes things sooo much more complicated, or
     at least they appear to.)

	Random comments on attitudes, custody, and single parent relationships:

	Speaking as a single parent, I find I *agree* with Doug and the 
	anonymous .25.  Another problem in a relationship between a single
	parent and someone who is undecided how they feel about kids is the 
	(high?) probability of eventually hearing that the latter has decided 
	that the kids are too much responsibility/not their thing/not as good 
	as NOT having them around/generally unacceptable....

	Ever try coming up with a non-hurtful, non-judgemental, but still honest
	way of explaining to the kids why they (and mommy/daddy) won't be 
	seeing that person much any more?  Especially where the kids often 
	LIKED him/her and had fun together? [um, btw, that question's meant to 
	be rhetorical. No suggestions necessary or really wanted!  :-) ]  

	Comment on joint custody: *any* kind of custody works as well as the
	parents are willing to let it.  If they still have unresolved issues
	between them, these will often come out as hassling over details - and
	joint custody simply gives ample opportunity for such details to crop
	up.  Joint custody CAN work well - and does in several cases I know of,
	including my own - but the parents have to be willing to make the 
	effort, as *parents* (regardless of any other lingering disagreements), 
	to make it work.

	Does it make things any better to date only other single parents?  Well,
	consider that there's now potentially two sets of parents/kids to be 
	upset should the relationship end... though it's less likely to be over
	having had kids involved in it!  :-)d
		Helen

This reply reserved for child haters not daters
    
There is a similarity in the 'cant stand'/hate children syndrome to the 
out of hand rejection of many groups that share the earth with us. I find 
the rejection of children to be the ironical intolerance of a person to 
themselves. 

The discussion quickly came onto the subject of dating. That someone should
wilfully select another when there is an obvious impedance is senseless. I
interpreted Bonnie Randal's point however more in the way a child owners
becomes last years model. You know the one without air conditioning. This
change takes place as soon as the word parent is mentioned. 

The child owner is usually able to read the departing expression which says 
something like...  She/he has to go home during the night. 
                   I cant stay all night in case little one comes in.
                   etc.

It is the departing expression which conjures up the meat market picture to 
the parent left standing.

Is your quest for a partner so intense that you cannot afford to finish your 
drink with someone you found attractive five minutes ago.

I have a scenario of the child hater excusing themselves mid sentence as soon 
the the word parent is  mentioned  and finding the back door on the way to 
the loo.

I try to select the people that I like after I have communicated with them, 
not on their height. It seems strange that someone should hate a person 
because they are below 150cm. without having met them.
    Stephen

    
    re .31
    
>I try to select the people that I like after I have communicated with them, 
>not on their height. It seems strange that someone should hate a person 
>because they are below 150cm. without having met them.

    What does choosing not to select a person have to do with hating
    a person?  I don't understand the connection.
    
    -dave    

    I lived for 2 1/2 yrs. with a man who has custody of his two teenage
    daughters.  He didn't want or expect me to become a mother to his
    children which was fine with me as I had no interest in that either.
     But, I found that I sometimes truly resented the time he had to
    devote to them and the importance they played in his life.  This
    is simply an honest statement.  Perhaps some women would not have
    resented the amount of attention he had to give them, but I did.
     The only man I had ever lived with at that point had been my
    ex-husband and for the first few years of our marriage our needs
    came first, then our daughters.  It was very difficult for me to
    have to take a backseat to my SO's children.  This is still not
    the reason the relationship ended, but all in all I would be very
    wary of ever again living with a man who had his children with him
    full time.
    
    I am now living with a man who has joint custody of his two small
    sons.  They spend every other weekend with us and I find this to
    be no problem at all.  He takes care of all their parenting needs
    and expects that I only be friendly and pleasant to them.  This
    seems to work out well.  I have no desire to have to play mother
    to a child who isn't really mine, and he doesn't expect it either.
     He's enjoying his chance to be with is kids.
    
    My ex-husband and I have joint custody of our 14 yr. old daughter.
     She lives with him but spends a lot of time with me as we have
    no visiting rules in our divorce agreement.  Our arrangement seems
    to work out fine, and actually, to my surprise, I find that I usually
    agree more with my ex-husband on issues of childrearing than I do
    most other people.  I don't think either one of us is could be
    considered a single parent.  She was 11 when we separated and we've
    continued to share in parenting.
    
    One thing that used to really annoy me when I was living with my
    former boyfriend and his daughters was the inordinate amount of
    times that people - both men and women - would tell him how wonderful
    they thought it was that he, a man, had raised his two girls all
    by himself.  Once at a party a drunk woman started crying while
    gushingly telling him how wonderful she thought it was.  I could
    have puked.  Millions of women have raised their kids alone and
    people just take it for granted.  Why should a man deserve more
    praise for raising his kids than a woman?
    
    Anyway, for me the main difficulty with relationships with single
    parents is not that I dislike children, but that it is difficult
    to have somebody else's kids around on a daily basis. 
    
    Lorna
    

RE: .8

I enter into a relationship with the attitude of 'what can I give?', not 'what
can I get?'.  And untill I know THIS particular situation, I won't know whether
I have anything to give or not.  You might as well finish your drink... 

When I am getting to know a person, I am *NOT* marrying them, or expecting them
to mother my children.  Perhaps those of you who drop old lovers off the edge of
a cliff into the sea when you are finished with them may have a different
attitude, but people are good for other things then spouses or co-parents if
such a relationship does not work out.

When I am with someone, I am with them here & now.  I am not with someone who
had better measure up to my (nonexistant) rigid standards of my mate in the
future. 

"Another little nit, why should someone consider dating a single parent, knowing
full well they hate kids? What would be the sense of doing same, after all if
the person is searching for a lasting relationship why bother when you know it
won't work."

There is something to be said for serenpidity; finding something valuable
in a place unlooked for.  Who knows, you might find that you liked THIS kid...

"Millions of women have raised their kids alone and people just take it for
granted.  Why should a man deserve more praise for raising his kids than a
woman?"

Because that's one less woman that will get to do it.

Jim. 

    re .34, Jim, I have nothing against men being the ones to raise
    their kids.  If the parents cannot come to a mutual agreement then
    I think the court should decide which parent should have the kids
    without regard to sex.  If you feel you should have had custody
    of your children, and you don't, then I'm sorry.  
    
    In a way, it's an insult for people to rave on about how wonderful
    it is for a man to have raised children, as though suggesting that
    most men are incapable of it.
    
    Lorna
    

Re .32


    Sorry dave I escalated dislike to hate. This was wrong of me. I was trying 
    to illustrate the grouping of people for the purpose of disliking. 
    The little one might think you hate him when you really only dislike 
    him.:-) ---he added quickly and defensively
    Stephen

    Me
    I
    hate
    dislike....
                    And who said the "ME GENERATION" is over?
                    It's just getting more vocal. Why do we
                    spend so much time thinking about how we
                    can't love rather that finding ways we
                    can?  
    
                    My heart goes out to the all the lonely
                    children. With so many people not liking
                    them it must be pretty lonely!

I hear two comments here from people who would not date a single 
parent.

One group says they recognize the responsibility of children, and
they understand the requirements of parenting and their lifestyle
is not compatible.  I think that is valid and I respect and admire
individuals that think before they act.  It is not responsible to
date someone and after an attachment has occurred to back out siting
a condition that was present at the onset.

But the group that says they dislike children is something else.  I
view them as prejudiced and I feel differently about them.  In my
eyes they have a problem.  To these people I present other thoughts.
I suggest that their thinking is not rational and maybe they should
take some action to develop a different mindset.  That might not 
mean that they would want to date a person with children...it would 
only mean that they would view a major portion of our population as
individuals not as a stereotypical group.

I also have difficulty in understanding an individual that does not
like children...knowing that they were once children...and also 
considering that there is also the real possibility that they will
become childlike in their old age...

I find some of the replies to this note very sad....and I feel that 
a dislike or disrespect for children is one of the reasons that there
is so much abuse.

re: < Note 530.37 by PBA::GIRARD >

    	...and what makes your view of the world any more correct than
    that of those of us who dislike children?
    
    	Are you implying there is nothing you dislike?
    
    						--Doug

If a person makes a blanket statement about blacks, are they a racist?
You bet.

If someone insinuates that women know more about blueberry muffins than
manual transmissions, is that sexist?  Sure.

However, some blanket statements about children are perfectly legal and
accurate in my book.  How about "children are immature" or "children are 
childish"?  I'm sorry, they are.  They are emotionally underdeveloped,
and I don't enjoy the company of adults who are that way any more than
children.  I really don't care that they'll grow up, or that Sally is
more mature than  Sammy...I just don't want to deal with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an ogre.  Children usually like me...I seem
to attract the neighborhood kids like a magnet.  And I'm nice to them.
But after a while these kids get on my nerves, and they don't understand
when enough is too much.  Why?  BECAUSE THEY'RE KIDS!  And I simply choose
not to deal with it if I have the choice.

.jim

    re .38:
    
    I'm afraid I don't understand. You're saying that because I don't like
    kids, I'm practically a child abuser. Hmm. Here all along I thought I
    was doing them a favor by leaving them alone. I thought it might be
    better for the kids to not inflict a father who doesn't like kids on
    them. 
    
    	Jon

re: < Note 530.38 by FSLPRD::JLAMOTTE "The best is yet to be" >
    
    Joyce,
    
    	Some of us fall under both categories.  I went back and read
    over my notes in this topic, and I started out by mentioning that
    that my dislike of *most* children is what keeps me from wanting
    children of my own for the forseeable future.  It also makes me
    leery of the responsibilities of a partner's children.
    
    	None of us had a choice about being children.  Biology won't
    let you pass childhood on your way to adult.  I see no logical reason
    that one cannot dislike children based on the fact that one was a child
    once. 
    
    	And before anyone starts in on me with the "Boy, you must have had a
    miserable childhood..." line, I'll say that my childhood was "perfectly
    normal" and I would consider it happy.
    
    	I can't think of a good closing "argument" - perhaps because
    I don't believe I'm so far off from most of the notes.  I'm just
    looking at it from the "other" side of the question.
    
    						--Doug

  .38


  >>I find some of the replies to this note very sad....and I feel that 
  >>a dislike or disrespect for children is one of the reasons that there
  >>is so much abuse.

 
    Having worked with a child abuse center in R.I., I would offer that 
    much of the abuse stems from the fact some people are not honest enough 
    with themselves to admit that the don't like children and are therefor 
    not ready/able to cope with them.  

    It is not simply the dislike or disrespect for children that causes the 
    abuse, but that fact that the person with those feelings find themselves 
    in a situation with a child.   In many of the cases I encountered, it was 
    the 'step-parent' or the parent of an unplanned child that was a child 
    abuser.  You may not like the fact that someone says 'I don't like 
    children' but at least give the person credit for being smart enough to 
    avoid becoming involved in a situation that has a high possibility for a
    physically or emotional abusive outcome for the child.  

    
     Allison
            

    I would like to remind people that we are discussing an issue here,
    not people. Some of the replies to this topic are starting to get
    a teensy bit heated. If you are feeling very emotional about this
    topic, please take some time before entering your next reply. Write
    your thoughts to a file and wait 24 hours before entering them.
    
    Tamzen, co-moderator

    In  some culutres they have an effigy in the corner with a big stick. I
    thought that DEC had notesfile.???? 

    I hope this does not get me kicked out but I think that it must be
    said. The dating issue is not the problem. 

    The problem starts far before that. If a persons mindset allows them to
    prejudge groups on their height. I believe that they are not being
    honest to themself. They should at least reexamine the issue. 

The reasons are as follow.

1. A group which they have left
2. A group which they will eventually rejoin.

           What do they think of themself?

3. There are more people over 150cms deserving of the title childish/childlike
behavior in the derogatory sense than under. (QED an adult who behaves like 
a child is a lot more difficult to take than a child manifesting the same 
behavior.)

If one examines history there are enough cases where the practice of 
grouping human beings for the purpose of dislike has had very unhealthy 
consequences. 

For the people who declare that they hate children, either they are winding 
us up. I believe that this is the case. Or they should seek to be a little 
more childish and open minded.

There is one more point to help to understand the position of child haters.
In the begining the man said >>"go thee forth and multiply and he gave him
the urge to do so" :-)>>*** We have been very successful. Child hate could be a
response to the success as people see their living room being used up.
Their hate/anger should be directed at the areas of society which
automatically sees them as breeding machines. Not at the children, which is
afterall themselves. 
    

    Child haters and child abusers are two different creatures.  The
    discussion of child abusers has no place under the base note. I
    would be happier if another topic was started which I could then
    avoid. The discussion as I see it is that people attribute certain
    charistics and behavior to population groups less than 150cms. This
    is unfair to this group. 
    
    Stephen

    >>  not the exact words

    
    One very interesting observation.  How does dislike get transformed
    into HATE.  I don't feel that the two are synonomous.  One group
    says I dislike children, therefor I avoid them, the other translates
    it into you hate children, why do you abuse them.  
    
    Has any one asked - why do you dislike children, many have assumed
    that it becuase of their behavior and size.  But while I have a
    nephew I *adore*, I do find him and all children to require too
    much care, nurturing and responsiblity.  I don't deny them any thing
    and have worked actively to support childrens rights and causes,
    I do not hate them, or wish them any harm.  I just prefer not to
    spend a lot of time with them.  It is not that I do not have
    paitence it is that I do not want the *responsibilty* of guiding
    of a child into adulthood.  That is what *I* do not like about children, 
    well that and changing diapers ;^).
    
    Allison                                              
    

	Since putting the entry in on single parenting, I have read
	all of the additional notes with great intrest, to all of you
	who added their comments, thank you, I may not have totaly
	agreed with you, but I do appreciate your input.
	However of all of the notes entered I found that the one I 
	found the most thought provocing was the one under DISLIKE=PREJUDICE
	.7.  Yes I, and think most 'adults' have forgotten what it was
	like.  The inocences, the caring, the unbias love that only a
	child seems to be able to give.  I would give so to find that
	ability again, and not have to be gaurded with me feelings,
	trapped because I do care about other, and hurt because others
	can neither see nor accept me simple because I am me.
	Have you ever noticed (are had the change / cared to notice)
	that a child will love you in spite of yourself.  Even when
	I have to punish my children, this does not effect the love
	that they have / show for me, at least not for very long.
	Is that emotionally immature or is that real human caring?
	I have yet in my lifetime found an adult that was that or
	will show that type of caring to another adult.
	Yes, I would admit that I have a lot to learn, or maybe better
	said as relearn from children, expecialy my own.  I can not
	honestly say that I always like my children, or again better
	said not always like what they do, but I can honestly say that
	I always love them.  I would also say that I love and care 
	about all people, sure some more so then others, but I would
	like to think that I have never, or atleast tried never to 
	prejudge/discount anyone because of the color of their skin, hair,
	their height, marital status, parental status ...
	Maybe this 'ideal' is just a left over from my own childhood, if
	so, I hope that I never grow up enough to lose it, and all I think
	that I have ever asked in return, was to be judged, liked, or disliked
	because of who I am, the inside me, and not based on some situation
	that will probably be different tomarrow. I AM NOT MY SITUATION,
	I AM ME, I THINK, I FEEL, I LOVE, I CARE, AND I EVEN HURT AT TIMES.
	If this is the case, how then can anyone judge another in a instance
	of time.  For those of you that perfer not to be around children,
	maybe I should wear a shirt that says 'I'M A DAD AND PROUD OF IT".
	I would hope that 'you' would not discount my friendship or my ability
	to be a friend just because I am a parent, and if during the course
	of that friendship a relationship developed, children should not be
	an issue. Either the relationship will become strong enough to over-
	come the problems of the children, as well as any other of the multitude
	of problems, if so no problem, if not, no problem.
	I quess this all leaves me with a question. Am I destined to everytime
	I meet a new person, start of the conversation with "Oh by the way,
	do you like children, If so we can be friends, if not ..."  If if comes
	to this, am I not being as narrow and judgmental?
  

On a related topic...

Would you date someone who had a handicap?  If you were dating someone and
you found out they had a handicap, would you break up with them?  Having
children is a handicap, in a way...

In a general sort of way...

Do adults in general have any responsibilities toward children, or just their
own child, and if they have no children, does that mean they have no
responsibilities to children in general? 

Children are important...  they are humanity's future...  And for this reason if
no other, I feel children should be important to everybody, not just parents.
What do you think? 

I do feel people who cannot handle children or immature people have a problem or
handicap (you could look at it that way).  If nobody wanted to be around
children or immature people, how would they ever get the experience to grow up?

Now, I am not saying that everybody has to have kids, put are there some people
out there who do not value kids?  (just asking, not pointing fingers)

I think Joyce has a point, but I think she has it skewed...  I think it's
parents who don't want to be parents who are potential abusers, not the parents
who avoid becoming parents.

Unfortunately, a lot of parents do not conciously choose to become parents.
And even then, you cannot choose what your children will be like.  And neither
can children choose their parents. 

C'est La'vi?

Jim...

    
    re .48
    
    Jim, I agree with you that children are our future (strains of Whitney
    here), and I value them.  I also do not wish to have children. 
    That's where I stand, anyway ....
    
    - Dave

    re: .48 (Jim)
    
    >>	Would you date someone who had a handicap?  
    
    	"If" questions are usually rather pointless unless a person has
    	previous personal experience.  I don't have such an experience, 
    	so I can't honestly answer this question.
    
    >>	Having children is a handicap, in a way...
    
    	Having children was probably a conscious choice by both adults.  
    	Keeping their child(ren), as opposed to adoption, was probably
    	a conscious choice by the parent.  Physical handicaps, however,
    	are *NOT* chosen.  If I have a child I am hopefully fully aware
    	I am making a commitment to that little (one day to be grown)
    	person for the rest of my life.  Ideally, I would put his/her 
    	needs on an equal level, if not ahead, of my own.  In my inex-
    	perienced opinion this is nowhere near a "handicap".  It is a 
    	*choice* to have children, and like any choice one has to deal
    	with both the good and bad consequences.
    
    >>	Do adults in general have any responsibilities toward children, 
    >>	or just their own child
    
    	Not sure I understand your point.  If I don't have kids, am I
    	obligated to volunteer at a local daycare center or offer to 
    	teach neighborhood children how to swim?  Maybe I already do
    	this, but if I don't it's really nobody's business but my own.
    
    	I can't count the number of times I've seen parents screeching
    	at their children in grocery stores because the child reaches
    	for something on the shelf.  Is the child so wrong to display
    	curiosity?  Don't think so.  In my opinion, those hysterical
    	adults are doing no one a favor by raising children.  *Some*
    	adults have a responsibility to children because they choose
    	to work with kids, they're good with kids, and they have an
    	instinctive knowledge how to play instead of barking constant 
    	reprimands.  I absolutely love playing with kids and somehow 
    	attract their attentions wherever I go.  But I'd feel uneasy
    	if someone insisted I *must* work with children because it's
    	my responsibility.  If I choose it to be, that's fine.  But
    	if I don't, then it's for a probably very valid reason.  And
    	if I did have a child I'd rather he/she have no outside adult 
    	interaction than someone impatient or moody dealing with him.
    
    >>	and if they have no children, does that mean they have no 
    >>	responsibilities to children in general?
    
    	If they choose not to, no.  This "you must do this" attitude 
    	isn't right, because some people just aren't cut out for it.  
    	What's sad is when people who don't feel ready forge ahead
    	and have children either due to societal, peer, or familial 
    	pressure.  Those results are usually not so good.
    
    >>	I feel children should be important to everybody, not just 
    >>	parents.  What do you think?
    
    	No one can set individuals' priorities but the individual.

    >>	it's parents who don't want to be parents who are potential 
    >>	abusers, not the parents who avoid becoming parents.
    
    	Parents who avoid becoming parents are usually not parents. ;-)

    						Carla
        

    RE: .50
    
>>	it's parents who don't want to be parents who are potential 
>>	abusers, not the parents who avoid becoming parents.
    
    While this sentence wasn't written super well, the meaning is clear and
    not hard to decipher. All you have to do is change one word:
    
    	it's parents who don't want to be parents who are potential
    	abusers, not the PEOPLE who avoid becoming parents.
    
    I'm not commenting on whether I agree or disagree with the statement,
    but trying to win debating points will neither persuade anyone nor
    advance understanding. 

RE: .50

If questions are not pointless if they make you think...

"Having children was probably a conscious choice by both adults."

Sigh...  I believe that this is largely false, but there seem to be a lot of
people out there that need to believe it.  I believe that less then half of
parents sit down and discuss it, and decide, 'let's' have kids, before they do.
I imagine that things were even worse if we talk about our parents deciding to
have children before common contraceptives.

"If I don't have kids, am I obligated to volunteer at a local daycare center or
offer to teach neighborhood children how to swim?"

I wouldn't think so...  I wouldn't think that you were obligated to go out of
your way to be with kids.  But, I wouldn't want to dislike kids such that I went
out of my way to avoid kids.

"I can't count the number of times I've seen parents screeching at their
children in grocery stores because the child reaches for something on the shelf.
Is the child so wrong to display curiosity?  Don't think so.  In my opinion,
those hysterical adults are doing no one a favor by raising children."

I agree...  I don't do this sort of thing...  If I am not prepared to take a kid
to the store and let it be quality time for them, I don't take them.  Dragging
kids around and then ignoring them does them a lot of harm, I think. 

Jim

    re: 530.48                      
                                    
    I had someone dump because I am handicapped (tough cookies buster your
    loss wherever you are on this DEC network).  I consider it his loss
    not mine because it is someone I wouldn't want to be associated
    with either.                                               
                                    
    Now back to kids...I dislike kids. Go ahead and flame on peoples!
    Skewer me to the gills go nuts!! Jump on me but before you nail
    me like Joan of Arc to the silly cross listen to me because I think
    a lot of people in Notesland will be nodding their collective heads
    in agreement.                   
                                    
    Not all of us had the Beave's homelife where mom baked cookies and
    dad played ball in the front lawn with us when he came home from
    work.  When you grow up a handicapped child in the seventies you
    still were the ugly duckling.  Kids your own age busted your cubes
    until you could take no more.  Try going home from school everyday
    crying because you weren't picked to play softball because you can't
    run, purposely tripped so they could watch how funny you looked
    trying to get up from the ground, calling you names behind your
    back when they KNEW you could here them, having teachers only make
    matters worse byt trying to explain to these children why they
    shouldn't do what they do, being made to go out/in for recess first
    so you wouldn't get hurt. I could go on but I don't feel like it
    let me get back to my point.    
                                    
    I don't want kids! My chances of passing on Muscular Dystrophy is
    99.9999999999999999999999999999999% to my child who will be most
    likely worse than I was.  I have no patience with children for long
    periods of time because being around kids for lots of time brings
    back painful hurting memories.  I have the right to avoid self
    inflicted pain emotional pain.  Now do I have to like kids? No.
     It is my choice and I can live with it.
    
    Sorry if I offended any and every one out there but things are not
    always cut and dry. There may actually be a reason for someone's
    opinion which is perfectly valid.
    
    Oh, and for the record a little girl no more than five and I sat
    cuddled yesterday on the side lawn of a friends house while I rubbed
    her back from numbness (her lips were blue from being in the pool
    for over an hour).
    
    				Debbi
    
    P.S. Tamzen, honest I counted to ten and even waited over the weekend
         to reply to this one.

I don't think anyone can say not wanting to pass a health problem on to children
is wrong.

For those people who had unhappy or problem childhoods...  I believe that being
involved with children can be one of the ways to heal the scars left by
childhood on ourselves.  I know that being involved in my children's childhood
helps me heal some of my scars.   Partly it is by being the parent to my
children that I wish my parents had been.  After that it is easier for me to
understand and forgive my parents.

How many people treat their children a particular way that their parents treated
them?  Either perpetuating a behavior, or actively acting the opposite fashion
because of past behaviors experienced?  How many act solely on a here & now
basis instead of acting on our pasts?

Unfortunately, those who could most be helped by reexperiencing childhood, if
they have no committed themselves to counteracting their past, are most likely
to perpetrate child abuse or inappropriate behavior, because they have no
experience at what childhood is supposed to be like.

For instance (solely of perpetrating behavior)  someone who has been raised that
children should seen and not heard is likely to try to raise their children in
that fashion because they don't know any better. 

Jim.

    	Personally I love kids. If we could have had and afforded 10
    we would have had them. I adore my children from a distance, spoil
    them when I feel like it, punish them when they need it, but most
    of all watch them do the things that they do when they don't think
    I'm watching. I enjoy seeing my 13 year old daughter deal with puberty
    and its hurts and joys. My 9 nine year old is pixie with just enough
    devil behind those eyes to let me know that i'm fair game for her
    tricks too. My 5 year old is in the middle of an awakening of the
    world and he's letting me be part of it.
    
    	I feel sorry for those of you who will not feel what I have
    felt, and will feel in the future. I hope that those feelings change
    and you get to be rewarded in the same way as I. But, I respect
    the way you feel or chose to feel for that's what makes us what
    we are. All I ask is that you be kind to kids and not rude, give
    them a chance to be kind back.
    
    Ken

    RE:   .55
    
    >  ... I feel sorry for those who will not feel what I have felt <
    
    Ken,
    
    Do you like spinach?  If you don't, do you wish you did?  If you
    do, do you feel sorry for those who don't.
    
    I personally do not like spinach.  I also do not _want_ to like
    spinach.  I have no urge to develope a taste for it.  I suspect
    that is also true of those who do not like kids.
    
    I do, however, like carrots.  In spite of that fact, I do not sit
    around feeling sorry for those who do not.
    
    I value diffferences.  The only people who I feel sorry for are
    those who don't.
    
    I know, you _did_ say that respect the feelings of people who do
    not like kids, but I am often "put off" by the mixed message of
    "I respect the fact that you don't agree with me, but I feel sorry
    that you're taste is not as *wonderful* as mine".
    
    Guess I'm just a nit doin' some picking.
    
    :^)
    
    Marion           

       
       
       	RE: .55
       
       	Although *I*'m not ready for kids yet, there is a part of me
       that envies the hell out of you Ken. :-) Right now, I'm getting
       to enjoy a part of what you have thru my new nephew.. It's great!
       
       						mike

    Re: .55
    
    >All I ask is that you be kind to kids and not rude, give them a
    >chance to be kind back.
    
    This seems to point out an underlying assumption in many replies:
    if someone dislikes kids, they will be rude or otherwise unkind
    to them.  Frankly, this is hogwash.  People are not automatically
    rude to those they dislike.  Most people have learned various social
    norms and rudeness is definitely frowned upon.  I think that, for
    the average person, rudeness is the exception.
    
    I guess you could say that I don't like children.  I'm really not
    interested in them.  They can be cute and funny and charming, but
    I prefer them at a distance.  I gratefully gave up babysitting when
    I went to college.  I really don't want the responsibility for one
    of them.  If I had to do it, I'd try to do it right, but I'd really
    rather not have to do it.
    
    Am I rude to children?  Hardly.  Why should I bother?  Usually I
    go my way and they go theirs.  I'm not entirely insensitive.  I'm
    willing to help the kid who lost mommy in the supermarket, just
    as I'm willing to perform any small act of charity.  But on the
    whole, I'm much happier not having anything to do with them.
                             

    	I didn't intend to offend. 
                
    	I do like spinach and I do like carrots 8-). I also value
    differences. I don't feel pity for those who can't or won't experience
    what children have to offer, I just hope that they find some of
    it for themselves someday whether it be in their own or someone
    else's child.
    
    	As to being rude. I didn't accuse anyone of being rude, I asked
    that you be careful not to be. If you don't like something, you
    generally have a low tolerence to it, therefore actions to it can
    be harsh without meaning to be. If you think you're so finely tuned
    in to what you say and do I would beg to differ. My wife pick me
    up on the way I treat different kids. She says that even when I'm
    friendly with certain children, my dislike for that child actually
    shows through in some manner shape or form. 
    	Believe me, kids will pick up your indifference, disklike or
    whatever and try to respond to it one way or another. Some will
    bend over backwards for you approval, others will walk away, and
    a certain group will show you a hostility you only thought existed
    in "Nightmare on Elm Street". 
    	
    	Originally I was going to refer to dating, etc. someone with
    children.  I dated a woman with two children a long time ago. It
    was not one of my more pleasant experiences where former spouse,
    grandparents, and kids put excess pressure on the relationship.
    There were weeknds when the kids were with dad and she felt relaxed
    enough to spend the night with me and the relationship would flourish.
    Reality would set in the following weekend (even though we would
    see each other during the week) because she would want me to leave
    when I brought her home or she'd wake me at 3 am so the kids wouldn't
    know I had been there. What ended the relationship was that she
    didn't want to have any more children. At the time she was 28 and
    I was 23 and it may have been that she wanted an older partner.
    If I was put into the position of dating again, I don't think that
    children would have the impact of the first relationship, but I
    would at least be able to go into it with a better sense of direction.
    
    Ken

    Re: .59
    
    >If you don't like something, you generally have a low tolerence
    >to it
    
    I think there's a distinction to be made between active dislike
    and passive dislike.  My dislike of children is pretty passive.
    It could as easily be termed 'disinterest' rather than dislike.
    My dislike of whining children is somewhat more active, in that
    I will try to avoid them.  My dislike of children is not so active
    that I will try to remove *them* from my environment; instead, I
    remove myself from their environment.
    
    I have a moderate tolerance for children in general.  I have a lower
    tolerance for disruptions, whining, and uncontrolled public behavior.
    Children are a common source of the things I dislike; therefore,
    I have a mild dislike children in general and a strong dislike for
    brats.  A particular child or a particular time with a particular
    child could be quite enjoyable.  It all depends, like most
    interactions.
    
    >kids will pick up your indifference, disklike or whatever
    
    Only if I interact with them.  And since I don't bother interacting
    unless I'm predisposed to like (based on what I've observed thus
    far) or at least sympathize (in the case of the lost ones), the
    ones I don't think highly of are not exposed to my opinion.  The
    boorish adult observed across the Food Court at the mall probably
    has no idea of my opinion of him/her either.