Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    First, you feel what you feel; even if the reasons may not be
    satisfactory, don't deny the feelings. The anger won't go away just
    because somebody tells you you "shouldn't" feel that way.
    
    In my experience, I don't think I've ever gotten angry, or even
    particularly hurt, at not receiving a gift at an expected time. In
    fact, I tend to be utterly surprised when anybody *does* offer
    something; I seem to forget that in some circles, gifts are considered
    mandatory!
    
    If relations between you and your siblings are otherwise cordial, I
    don't think I would read anything into the absence of an "official,"
    gift-wrapped-type present. However, if your feelings are causing you
    grief, you should take steps to deal with them. I'm afraid I can't
    guess whether it would be better to talk it over with your sister,
    or just work it out yourself; I trust somebody else will have some
    suggestions, though!
    
    For what it's worth,
    
    -b

    RE:  VALKYR::RUST
    
    You bring up a good point that I should probably have mentioned.
    I have nearly no other relatives save my brother and sister.  Both
    my parents were only children.  When they died (fairly close together)
    both my brother, sister, and I were the only people in the estate.
    At the time my brother, who was executor or the wills, did what
    I consider to be some legally questionable things (to his benefit,
    naturally).  Quite a spat developed.  Though I managed to stay out
    of the disputes for the most part, I doubt that relations within
    my family will ever return to "normal".  By my inclusion of both
    of them in my wedding, (they are still barely speaking to each other)
    I was sort of saying "though much of the warmth has gone out of our 
    family, you are still my brother and sister.  I want to share my 
    happyness with you".  By their actions after my parents' death,
    the two of them showed me just how petty and selfish they could
    be.  They both were so tied up in fighting over things that belonged
    to my parents, that they forgot totally about me.  I received nearly
    nothing to speak of from my parents' estates mostly because I refused
    to fight over it (For example, I don't _need_ an oriental rug
    badly enough to fight tooth and nail over it).  I guess what I am
    asking of you all is an independant judgment call.  It will help
    me decide if these two are just too self centered to bother with.
    The wedding was a fairly traditional one.  Formal invitations for
    everybody, Attendent's gifts etc.  I am wondering if there is anything
    I am missing in the way of tradition that says that if the relatives
    are actually involved in the wedding, does it make a wedding gift
    optional?  I don't think for one minute that they got together and
    decided to snub me out.  I was just wondering if you think they
    exhibiting their usual "Marion can do withut" attitude.  If so,
    then to heck with them.  I just want to know if I have overlooked
    something in unspoken tradition.
    
    Marion
    
    BTW - thanks for the ear!

Imagining myself in your shoes...

If you wanted to use the occasion of your wedding to help bring your family back
together, don't stop now!  Don't let your behavior be a reaction to someone
else's less-then-charitable actions or attitudes.  

Write a thank you note that says that you appreciated their participation in
your wedding, and expresses your hope that the wedding would bring your family
closer back together. 

Make it obvious that you notice the lack of gift, but that it is no big deal;
because it isn't, it seems you are more worried about the significance of the
lack of gift, rather then the actual lack of gift. 

Something like... 'Your prescence meant more than any gift...'

Since you chose to not fight for what you didn't need (estate), leave it at
that, unless you've changed your mind. 

Jim

     
    could it be that they just plain forgot??
    
    send them a wedding thank-you letter.
    that outta stir some things.
    if they approach you, and say i didnt send anything, then simply
    say oh i'm sorry i forgot..
    and leave it at that, and that way they would know that you knew
    it.  
    i wouldnt be hurt though, but i would let them know i knew.
    i think that is rude on their part.
         
    		wendy o'
    
    

     
    re.3
    i didnt see your reply, but i would still send out a letter
    of acknowledgement.
    			wendy o'
    
    

    You could continue with your life and forget about the little things
    that have caused you all this time.  The older I get the less meaning-
    ful the presents get.  Just to be close to the one you love is the
    Gift of love.
    
    Just send them a thank you card saying:
    
    Thanks for coming to the wedding and letting the kids participate.
    
    Love for ever a Day
    
    Sis
       
    P.S.  I love you dearly
    
    
    This should make them feel just great, if you know what I mean.   
   

    RE:  .6                      
    
    To be honest with you, the present is not the point.  In fact it
    think it is classic that I didn't even notice the absence of their
    presents until last weekend - nearly 2 months after the wedding.
    It seems, to my great surprise, that I have identified a big blind 
    spot that I have where my family is concerned.  I never realized 
    it before now, but I have _never_ failed to remember one of their
    birthdays or their kids birthdays.  They, on the other hand, never
    even bother to drop me a card on my birthday.  In fact the only 
    thing that surprises me more than this realization is the fact that
    I hadn't realized it until now!  At Christmas and birthdays etc
    I enjoy putting a special effort into getting that "just perfect"
    gift for people.  While writing thank you notes, I realized that
    I have any number of friends that did the same thing.  At least
    two thirds of my presents were absolutely perfect for the situation.
    It is obvious that those friends put allot of time, effort and
    creativity into the present selection and presentation.  In two
    cases, the presents were hand made just for me!  These are obviously
    people who, like me, take "being nice" seriously.    This is in
    great contrast to my immediate family.  In fact I spoke with my
    brother last night.  I told him I was doing my thank you cards,
    and I didn't seem to remember which gift was from him.  He very
    flatly stated "You didn't tell me what you wanted, so I didn't get
    you anything".  Well, that's just fine.  That is just his way. 
    I can see that now.  On the one hand I have friends that saw my
    wedding as an opportunity to show me how warm their feelings are
    for my husband and me (one friend sent only a card, but it was the
    funniest wedding card I have ever seen.  I will keep it forever!).
    On the other hand I have my immediate family.  It seems that warmth
    and caring are not on the agenda when it comes to me.  That's fine
    as far as I am concerned, but I think at this juncture of my life,
    I am ready to decide if I want to put much extra energy into my
    relationship with them.  Not that I will "go away mad", but
    the next time I have a free Saturday, perhaps I should give one
    of my "real friends" a call, rather than seeing if my sister would
    like a day off from the kids.  Am I out of line here?

    I would like to thank all who have responded so far.  You are really
    helping me think this thing through!  As you can tell, I don't take
    this sort of thing lightly.  I really appreciate your independent
    input.

    Marion

    
    PS - Did any of you see the TV movie entitled something like "Who
    gets custody of the friends" the other night?  I laughed and cried
    thru most of it.  The part I liked best was the end.  The recently
    divirced wife was asked "Who got custody of your friends?"  She
    answered "We both did.  He got his, and I got mine.  We just didn't
    know which was which until now."  Love it!
    
    Marion

    Re .7: I think you've got the right idea. That is, if your siblings'
    non-gift-giving habits simply mean they don't think about it much,
    then it shouldn't matter to them whether you take a lot of time
    over gifts for them or not. While you can still care for them as
    family,  you needn't feel obligated to give them gifts - or time
    - that they don't seem to value. No guilt necessary. [Random question:
    have they ever thanked you for those carefully-selected presents?]

    -b

    
    	Marion,
    
    	 Your brothers/sisters sound just the same as my brother. I
    	can not EVER remember a time where he went out of his way for
    	anyone unless it had a benifit for him. Heck, after I moved
    	back east from New Mexico, in five years he only visited once
    	and that was when he and his ex-wife split. The reason for the
    	visit, he needed a place to stay. Well, I let him stay, which
    	turned out to be four months, not the "week or so until he found
    	his own place". He didn't help pay any of the bills, food included!
    	It's now been six years since then and he has not shown his
    	face around once, nor has he called. It sure isn't cause he
    	doesn't know where I live, it's only about 8 to 10 miles from
    	where he lives. At first this bothered me, now I don't give
    	it a second thought. I don't hate him, he is still my brother,
    	I just know he doesn't place any real value on that. On the
    	other hand, why should I always go out of the way for him? I
    	just don't bother, like I said, he knows how to contact me
    	if he felt like it.
    
    	G_B

    Re:  .10  ANGORA::BUSHEE
    
    
    I think you may have hit the nail on the head.  If that's the way they are,
I see no reason to spend any of my (precious little) extra energy on them.
I have decided that if the lack of a gift is the least bit irregular, it
is a sign to me that this is the way they are.  Hence, the base note.  I
need to know if a lack of a gift is irregular (I don't think that anybody
has directly addressed that as yet).  Perhaps I should explain why I feel
a need to make this decision at this time.

Some time ago, my sister and I sort of came to an unspoken agreement.  At
this point in our lives, we have nothing in common.  I expect that eventually
we will (when her kids are grown etc), but as things stand now our lives 
just don't connect, so whether a healthy "give and take" sort of relationship 
is possible with her is a bit of a moot point.  The problem is John (not his 
real name), my older brother.  John lived at home with my parents until they 
died when he was 45.  Up to that time he had never even so much as paid an 
electric bill in his life.  He never vacuumed a rug, made coffee, changed a 
light bulb, or mowed a lawn.  Get the idea? [Does that make him an Irish-
American prince?  :^D]  Then my folks died three years ago.  It has taken 
him these three years to get himself into quite a bind.  The house (left to 
him by my folks) is in a bad state of disrepair.  He has run his credit card 
to the max.  His electric was shut off twice because he forgot to pay it.  
In other words he needed advice on how to run a household and manage money 
etc.  Even though he had never in the past made any move towards friendliness 
with me, six months ago he called me and asked if I would help him set up a 
budget (I am told he had to call my sister to find out what town I lived in 
so he could get my phone number!).  I agreed to do so.  After all, I suppose 
every "give and take" relationship has to start with somebody giving first.  
Right?  So he and I got together and I set up guidelines for a budget.  So 
far, so good.  A month later, he called me and suggested we meet for dinner.  
I agreed, and he said "I'll bring my check book".  I assumed that meant he 
was buying.  Wrong!  It meant that he would bring the check book so I can 
look it over and tell him if he was "doing OK" on his budget.  This is now a 
monthly occurrence.  Also in a weak moment I lent him some money which he has 
failed to pay back as he had agreed to.  I'm not sure I like the way this is 
developing.  I am beginning to believe that he feels that he is keeping up 
his part of the relationship by allowing me to help him!  It's not that 
helping him is such a bother, but I am really starting to wonder if I am 
being used.

Sorry for rambling on.  I sort of figured I'd give a bit more background
on my poser.

Marion
    

    I would
    
    1) NEVER lend him another cent.  Even if he's in some hardship,
    he has GOT to learn by feeling pain.  From what you say, he does
    not learn any other way.  This has been written up - it's called
    Tough Love.  You love someone by forcing them to make it, not by
    spoon feeding him.  You get tough, so they will get tough.
    
    2) Give him the name of an accountant, or a financial manager.
    It will cost him a few hundred, but YOU can't be the one to always
    be there for this purpose.  You don't have the time, and he sees
    no reason to learn to do it on his own since he's getting a free
    monthly session with you.
    
    3) DO NOT feel guilty about not supporting him.  He's a big boy.
    He should have gone through this in his early 20s.  He is fully
    capable of going through it now.
    
    4) If you wish, talk to your sister about him, tell her what you're
    doing, and see if it's possible to enlist her support in allowing
    him to stand on his feet.  If not, that's how it goes.
    
    5) SEPARATE yourself from this, emotionally.  If you need to, tell
    your brother point blank, honestly, what you have told us.  Sometimes
    people need a shock treatment before they will respond.  In fact,
    it wouldn't be a bad idea to set his expectations up front.  Tell
    him you care about him (or whatever you feel) and FOR THAT REASON
    he's going to have to work this out.  You will get him started,
    but don't want to see his checkbook AGAIN after that point.  Tell
    him he's taking unfair advantage of your time, your money(the meals),
    - you can go on from there.
    
    Just because someone's related doesn't exempt them from being fair
    and courteous to you.
    
    --Louise

        My own perspective on this is a little different from some of
        the rest of the noters who have replied here. Personally I find
        feel trerribly coerced and frustrated when it comes to gift
        giving at holidays and the like, and I think that the focus that
        our culture puts on formalized gift giving at specific times is
        grossly materialistic and has littl or nothing to do with
        genuine feelings.
        
        I feel like I'm being tested every time I have to give a gift.
        The accuracy with which I divine the wants, needs and desires of
        the recipient seems to be taken as some sort of measure of my
        affection for them, and if I fail in selecting the right gift I
        have somehow failed to care for them. To make matters worse,
        there are specific deadlines for when all this has to be done,
        and at Christmas time one is expected to perform for everyone
        simultaneously.
        
        Don't get me wrong. I love the part of Christmas when the little
        boys open their presents and the gleam of joy sparks in their
        eyes. I love putting toys together, setting up the tree and even
        wrapping presents. I also love to buy presents for the people I
        love, but I by far prefer to do it spontaneously, and not to
        some external schedule and in competetion with everyone else and
        with everyone's expectations.
        
        I hate the feeling I get in the pit of my stomach when Christmas
        is a few days away and I haven't found anything that seems right
        for my wife, mother or father. I hate being disappointed by a
        gift by a loved one, because I am tempted to be disappointed
        with the loved one as well as the gift. Over the years my wife
        has bought me a couple of clunkers, some with extreme relish and
        excitement. I hate letting her down when I'm not enthused, and I
        hate the nagging feeling that she could have done better.
        
        I'm sure that over the years my discomfort with presents has
        made friends and loved ones feel that I don't care for them
        enough, and that just makes it worse. I'm sorry that they feel
        that way, but I don't know what I can do about it. I do what I
        can. Sometimes I give really inspired presents, presents that
        make me and the recipient feel great, but sledom to I really hit
        the mark for more than a couple of people in the year. With all
        the others I've failed. I've tried to express the love that is
        really there and failed.
        
        Just the other side.
        
        JimB.

    This probably isn't the situation in your case but here is an
    interesting	situation that happened to me several years ago.
    
    My friend got married and I was in her wedding with a couple of
    other friends.  Well a few weeks after the wedding was over, the
    bride confided in me that she was hurt that friend #1, the maid
    of honor hadn't given them a wedding gift, although she didn't
    say she was mad, she kind of acted cold to the maid of honor.  Well
    friend #2, a month or so after that, was complaining that the bride
    was being rather cold to her, and boy did she have a nerve to be
    snooty, after all she didn't even send her a Thank You for the card
    and money she gave them as a Wedding gift... the more I thought
    about it, the light bulb lit... I went to the bride and told her
    was the maid of honor told me, and the bride said she hadn't 
    received a gift from a few other wedding guests, and was getting
    paranoid... after talking to these other guests, discretely asking
    if they had given a gift, they had given cards and money... looks
    like somebody got their greedy little hands in the wedding basket
    on the day of the wedding.. we all laugh about it now. but it almost
    ruined a friendship.
                           

    
    
    Some "wedding" books say you have a year after the wedding to send
    a gift.
    
    bd

RE: .11 relationship with brother

Realistic, in any relationship you have to be able to A: tell the other person
what you want out of the relationship, and B: tell the other person what you
don't want in the relationship.  Perhaps in the Good Old Days, people were
enough alike that there were less problems, less differences, and we didn't have
to do this, but people are not mind readers.  I feel it's necessary to have a
real personal relationship with anybody; I also get to know the other person
better this way. 

Your brother thinks that your relationship consists of him taking advantage of
you.  You have to teach him different, and also teach him that there is a better
relationship is possible between the two of you.

RE: JB  gift giving...

I feel the same way about gift giving occasions.  I don't have much trouble with
Christmas, because Christmas means a lot to me religiously.  I wish that I could
be like some people who work on Christmas gifts all year for people, but the way
my life is, a gift that I bought six months ago might not be appropriate today.

The occasions that trouble me most is Valentines Day, which to me is a totally
artifical concept.  I hate feeling like I have to synchonize my gift giving with
everyone else!  What is worse, my normal gift giving impulses are stifled by
gift giving occasions;  If I see something I'd like to give someone, often it's
not appropriate, or I feel like I have to save this gift idea for the next gift
giving occasion when I will "need" it. 

I do best giving gifts on impulse...

Another problem I have with gift giving is that the person I would most like
to give something is often with me.  If I'm in a store looking at cards,
and the person I'm looking for a card for comes up behind me and see the
card I've just spent two hours looking for, that kind of let's the air out
of my sails!

Jim.

	Just a thought;

	The members of your "family" are rarely arised under the same roof.

I enjoy the company of my brother and sister, but my "family" are the people 

that I choose. If you stop and think about it, you will realize that the 

people that really matter to _you_ are your own choice!

	I would suggest that you stop trying to "repair" your relationship

to people who seem to be indifferent.

	Be happy for yourself.... let them be who they are and don't tie

you happiness to them.

	tomc

    Marion,
    
    I can mirror many of the comments in this topic. mainly, not feeling
    guilty about acting or reacting in certain ways about certain things.
     However, I should like to add some to that.
    
    I come from a large family (#7 of 8 kids), and we grew up all over
    the world and were never very close, as a family.  We have had our
    good times and our bad times.  Many times I would find myself very
    angry, upset, mad, etc...  at one or another family member.  Many
    times it was because they truly did something wrong, by me.  Many
    times I was simply being short sighted.  I would also get enfuriated
    when I would do much for them but see nothing in return.  And I
    am sure that they feel the same toward me (I am *lousy* at remembering
    gifts and the such...)
    
    Over time, though, I began to realize something.  Being angry does
    ***NOTHING*** to resolve the problem or the hurt, unless the
    antagonizing person(s) is aware of the anger.  Anger, restrained,
    is quite useless.  I have begun to make my anger and hurt known
    to the offending parties.  This doesn't always work, but does so
    often enough to know that it is the preferred method, for me.
    
    I have also realized that another person can not make one feel guilty
    about this or that.  Only we can CHOOSE to feel guilty.  You have
    no cause to feel guilty about how you feel or act, unless you choose
    to do so.  Mind you, feeling guilty about something is perfectly
    normal, but is not someones 'fault'.
    
    Another thing that I have come to live by (at least try to...) is
    to 'give' of myself, because it is what I want to do.  Not because
    I feel that it is proper or expected.  I am obligated to noone,
    except, perhaps my wife and children.  Nor do I feel guilty or foolish
    if I do for someone who does naught for me.  I have had several
    people tell me "why do you still help so-and-so, when they wouldn't
    even give you the time of day?..."  The way I figure it, the earth
    is a closed system.  You can not put into this system without getting
    something of equal value back from it (eg: action and reaction of
    equal value).  True, the return may be so far separated in time
    and cercumstance as to make it hard to see the corrilation, but
    if you put into this system you *will* experiance the 'reaction'.
    
    If nothing else, that philosophy has help me to do something without
    any expectations (truley), and not questioning the lack of reaction.
    
    The lack of a gift, at any occation, has never caused me any concern
    or worry.  The only time that I consider the proper time for someone
    to get me a gift is when they want to, not when manners say they
    should.
    
    My dearest and closet friend, Jim Meyer, didn't get us an anniversary
    gift.  I noticed this and forgot it.  I do not need a gift to remember
    him by nor to know of his love for me.  about one year later he
    gave me a paper plate with a hand written 1st anniversary blessing.
     I will treasure it forever, because it wasn't expected or necessary.
    
    Sorry that I droned on for so long.  I do hope you didn't get tired
    of reading all of this.  Good luck!
    jim