Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    TALKING!!!  To him not to us.  

    
    See a counselor.
    Learn to love yourself before you try to love anyone else.
    
    From your note,  I'd be willing to bet almost anything that one
    or both of your parents (or whoever raised you) were alcoholics.
    Adult Children of Alcoholics exhibit certain traits in their adult
    lives which are directly attributable to growing up in an environment
    where the parents/guardians were substance abusers (usually alcohol).
    
    You're not alone  --  so find some help.  You'll be pleased with
    what you learn about yourself, and it almost certainly will help
    you in the rest of your life and relationships.
    
    Good luck!
    
    -Don-
    

    If you think you would like to get support from a great group of
    people struggling to grow beyound living in abusive relationships,
    contact MEIS::TILLSON for membership in the ACOA (Adult Children
    of Alcoholics) NOTESFILE.  Many of the members are from other 
    dysfuncional families.
    
    Marty 

    
    	Re earlier:
    
    Although positive in context, I dont see how you can conclude that
    this person is the daughter of alcoholic parents by the information
    given in the base note. Seems to me that her *abusive partners* were
    the ones who might have been children of alcoholic parents, not
    her -
    
    In one of my past relationships, *I* was the one taking abuse, yet,
    I'm "the man"!?! Works both ways, ya know. (And if you think getting
    clobbered on the head with a glass bottle or having boiling hot
    water tossed on you is not abuse, just send me mail and I'll straighten
    you out on just_how_abusive that was...) She was the daughter of
    alcoholic parents. 
    
    A suggestion for .0. Try to believe that there are some guys out
    there who are not of the "breed" you happened to associate with
    those_first_two_times. Yes, question strongly anyone you are thinking
    about going with, find somethings out about the person in terms
    of their home life and past relationships - but dont be so cold
    as to take *all* the romance out of it either. Your barrier is actually
    well founded and may continue in it's strength until someone shows
    you otherwise. I'm about to sound Mega-Concieted, but I've been
    personally told that, through knowing me, someone has "been shown"
    that *all* men aren't assholes! Believe, please, the truth in this.
    Do your homework, take maybe a *year* if you have to, but you *will*
    find a fine guy with no "issues" or "hidden agandas" or "BTWs".     
    
    	Because we exist. We do.
    
    	Joe Jas       

re; < Note 502.3 by GUCCI::MHILL "Void if Detached" >

    >membership in the ACOA (Adult Children
    >of Alcoholics) NOTESFILE.  Many of the members are from other 
    >dysfuncional families.

At CXO, the EAP offers a 2-half-day (mornings, 8a-12n, one each week) class for 
Adult Children of Alcoholics or Substance-Abusive Parents.  My mom did neither, 
but she was abusive, and the same, co-dependent behaviors developed in me, as 
developed in children of substance abusers.  Yours sound like similar 
co-dependent behaviors; the therapist leading the class said that sometimes, 
even a teacher who is abusive, for whom you encounter for only one year, can 
make co-dependent behaviors come out in you.

good luck!

    re: .4
    
    It's easy to understand that there are nice guys out there. I think
    the base note person thinks she may have one. Unfortunately that
    is only a start for someone from an unloved background. In fact
    because she questions this seemingly nice guy's motives might lead
    to some very defensive and often abusive behavior. I don't mean
    physically abusive but maybe mentally.
    
    I couldn't recommend strongly enough that she goes to EAP who can
    recommend support groups and individual counceling. This is a problem
    that has taken a life time to build up and it can not be resolved
    through will power or well meaning noters. But noter friends sure
    do help!  
    
    Gail

re; < Note 502.4 by FLOWER::JASNIEWSKI >
    
>    Although positive in context, I dont see how you can conclude that
>    this person is the daughter of alcoholic parents by the information
>    given in the base note. Seems to me that her *abusive partners* were
>    the ones who might have been children of alcoholic parents, not
>    her -
    
I just wanted to clarify;

A lot of co-dependent behaviors were found in children from homes where one or 
both parents were alcoholic.  However, these behaviors (which are defenses, 
learned early on, usually) are not limited to those from that type of home.  If 
abusive relationships have been the trend, one thing that develops is the fear 
of a close relationship, which sounds like the case, here.  With further 
understanding into one's own defense system, and how that system is set up to 
deal with abusive people, one can overcome that defense system; open up and 
share emotionally without fear, and *not take* abuse, any more!

When you're set up to deal with an abusive person, that's what you tend to 
attract.

A friend of mine was in an abusive relationship with a man for 5 years.  She 
sometimes doesn't know how to take it when her husband is good to her; she 
still expects certain types of abuse that don't happen!  These anxieties caused 
her to go to EAP, and take the class I was mentioning on Adult Children of 
Alcoholic or Substance-Abusive Parents.  I would like to transfer the notes I 
took from that class from another NOTES file to here, and if someone can send 
me mail at GENRAL::DANIEL telling me how to do that, I would be glad to post 
them.  We had the first class; the second class is next Thursday.

    You are much too young to feel this way.  My mother is 52 and has
    given up on love.  Even if a man is dead sincere with her and head
    over heals in love with her, she asks herself "What is he after?",
    "What is he conning me for?".  She is totally defensive now, and
    therefore, will probably never experience love again.  This came
    from broken relationships but alot more than you have had I'm
    sure.  I'm 30 and I can't say as though I've given up yet.  I'm
    a dreamer, a fantasist, and thrive for romance.  My attitude now
    is if you want to win, you've got to play!  Every woman deserves
    to get her feet wet and dive in at one point in her life.  You
    have to be careful with whom you select, but don't generalize
    there are some nice men left (not many) but some just the same
    so hang in there!
    
    Kim
    

re; 502.7; here are the notes from the class.

                <<< DMATE2::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DEJAVU.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 688.40                      Adult Children                         40 of 41
GENRAL::DANIEL "If it's sloppy, eat over the sink." 160 lines  21-APR-1988 16:53
                         -< Co-Dependency Class Notes >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today, I attended the first of two classes, titled "Co-Dependency; Adult 
Children of Substance Abusers", which covers, also, those who have been abused 
in many manners and have developed co-dependent behaviors, as a result of that 
abuse.

What Is Co-Dependency?

Definition;  Emotional, psychological, and behavioral condition developed from 
prolonged exposure to a set of unspoken and oppressive rules that prevents free 
expression of feelings.

Notes;

The person with the problem/abusive pattern has the world revolving around them 
so that your needs are not met.  Think of a mobile hanging; when you weigh down 
one of the parts, all of the other parts must adjust before hanging correctly. 
The child often feels that rules (using male gender for grammatical convenience)
for survival are; don't talk, don't trust, don't feel.  These feelings develop 
at a young age.  Children bury their feelings to such a point that they become 
unaware of what are their feelings.

One defense mechanism used is _denial_.  ("I thought that the way I was being 
raised was normal.  I thought what my mom did was normal.  I thought that 
having gallons of alcohol around was normal.")

Abuse is a disease.  You get caught up in the behavior.  It becomes a family 
disease.

Your feelings are seldom validated, so you learn to stuff them, and may later 
turn to chemicals to push them down.

Roles.

There are many roles which you may assume as your defense system.  While the 
behaviors may be normal, the motivations behind them in a co-dependent person 
are not.

Clown - Use your sense of humor, be the center of attention, so that no one 
really gets to know you.

Scapegoat - "I'm responsible for all the problems".  The dumping ground.  Lots 
of anger, not hidden; "I can't show my sensitivity, so since they said I did 
it, I'll go and do it, and they can be right."

Placator - You take care of everyone's emotional needs.  "See how warm and 
sensitive I am.  You like me now, don't you, and you approve of me."

Adjustor - You take pride in being flexible.  You are the chameleon.  The 
danger is, you get walked on easily; not paying attention to how *you* feel 
about what you're doing, which leads to no sense of power or control over your 
situation.  More females than males take on this role.

Ultra-Responsible - You either feel above or below another person; rarely 
equal.  You've taken responsibility that is not yours (you think that the fact 
that the person got abusive or took a drink is because you did something 
wrong).  "If I don't do that, I won't be liked; I won't be acceptable.  They 
must perceive me as good; I take care of everyone but myself because I have to 
be liked."

Inter-Psychic - You're so preoccupied with the abusive person that you begin to 
know them better than you know yourself; you know what they are going to do, 
before they do it.  You want to predict them because you will do anything to 
avoid their abuse.

You learn to keep the lid on your emotions so that you won't be abused;
a) don't express yourself
b) don't let them effect you/don't take them in.

You can measure your recovery from these defensive behaviors of the past by
your ability to make choices; you no longer have to "react", but you can feel, 
experience, think, and Make Choices; bring your feelings and thoughts together 
to make choices.

Symptoms of being abused - Compulsions.  Gambling, sex, eating - We want to be 
too busy to pay attention to our feelings.


ENMESHMENT.

(Sandra drew a diagram at this point, which I will explain as best I can.  
Please pretend that the diamonds are circles.)


   /\  /\	normal			/\ /\	co-dependent relationship;
  /  \/  \	relationship-	       /  \  \	you take on the other person
 /   /\   \	two separate	      /    \  \	to the extent that not much
<   <  >   >	entities who	     <      >  > of you exists, even if it
 \   \/   /	share	              \    /  /	appears to you the other 
  \  /\  /			       \  /  /	person is getting help from
   \/  \/				\/ \/	you/leaning on you (denial).


Denial in the co-dependency model means that you are unaware that your taking 
over of the other person is exactly what they want to not have to change...
you deny that you are giving too much of yourself away.  If that other person 
leaves the relationship, there is so little of you left that you feel lost.

Criteria for Identifying a Co-Dependent

a)	Continued investment of self-esteem.  You invest your own self-esteem
	in to the abusive/dependent person.

b)	Assumption of responsibility - You feel that your behavior caused
	them to abuse.

c)	Anxiety and *boundary distortion* (as in the diagram above) around	
	intimacy and separation - Losing sense of who are you.

d)	Three or more of the following;

	1. Excessive reliance on denial.
	2. Constriction of emotions (with or without outbursts, unable to feel)
	3. Depression
	4. Hypervigilance (constant need to know what's going on everywhere)
	5. Compulsions
	6. Anxiety
	7. Substance Abuse
	8. Has been or is the victim of recurrent physical or sexual abuse.
	9. Stress-related medical illnesses.
       10. Has remained in a primary relationship wiht an active substance
	   abuser for 2+ years without seeking help.

You re-experience thoughts and feelings - they may seem to get in the way - but 
when you are recovering, this is necessary.

Continued intrusive thoughts.

Psychic numbing.

Guilt.

You learn to hide your feelings/feel embarrassment/always seek approval/feel
powerless/develop guilt for not being able to control situations/think that
conflict, chaos, and hiding feelings are norms of behavior.

Evaluate your feelings of pride, shame and doubt; for what are you *really* 
responsible?

Sandra said that when you first start to recover, you may find that you are 
flogging yourself; are hard on yourself.  When you move past this stage, you 
will do better.

Children who are well-adjusted don't feel guilt and fear when they talk about 
their feelings.  You may feel lonely, separated (not connected), fearful and 
anxious (although your anxieties may not make sense to you); may have 
difficulty maintaining close relationships; feel that "something is missing" in 
your relationships; use drugs and/or alcohol, yourself; feel helpless and 
desperate; you will want to keep peace and not rock the boat at all costs. 
Repeated humiliation, judgements, embarrassment, and putting you down leaves 
you with no trust/confidence/reliance/faith in others.  You feel as if you must 
do everything, yourself.

The first time a co-dependent actually has fun, he may be scared because he 
feels like he's lost control.  He must learn that it's ok to be out-of-control 
sometimes.

End of first class.  Next week, we talk about how to overcome using defenses in 
an environment where they are not helpful, because co-dependents use the same 
defenses as they were taught at home, and therefore might set themselves up for 
repeated abuse.

    re.0
    I'm on the other side of your problem. I'm trying to get close to
    a wonderful woman that has been in your place. My desire is not
    to hurt her or use her only to be a friend and more if she will
    let me. I really dont know what to do other than to avoid making
    her feel threatened, take things very slow and hope I can gain
    her trust someday. I wish you much luck. Please believe that not
    all men are that way some just want to love you and be loved by
    you. I only wish there was a way for you to detect the bad ones
    and a way for me to prove my intentions are good.
    
    -jerry
    

        Another note from the author of the topic note.
        
================================================================================

This is me again. The author of .0. I was not raised by alcoholics. I have
had a perfectly 'normal' upbringing. If someone is nice to me, that's fine.
But if they are interested in pursuing it into a relationship, I don't have 
any desire to and would rather remain friends. I enjoy every other aspect of
my life. Work, family (although they are far away), friends (minimal - I'm
new to this area), and I have many hobbies. I am looking for someone special
to share these things with, but just can't seem to let anyone in...

Thanks for the replies so far...

    re: .11 (Anon Author)

    >>	But if they are interested in pursuing it into a relationship, 
    >>	I don't have any desire to and would rather remain friends.
        
    	If you aren't ready to pursue a relationship, don't!  There is
    	nothing more harmful to both parties than to carry on as "more 
    	than friends" if one isn't ready and/or willing, and you have
    	clearly stated that (for now) you need to remain on a friendly 
    	yet uninvolved level.  But then you said:

    >>	I am looking for someone special to share these things with, 
    >>	but just can't seem to let anyone in...
    
    	Do you have close women friends?  Are you speaking about male
    	friendships/relationships exclusively?  This will sound a bit
    	cliche but is meant with all sincerity:  When it's right for 
    	*you*, you'll be able to allow someone inside your invisible 
    	fence.  Until then, allow yourself to enjoy your other aspects 
    	of life, and they sound plentiful, without worrying about the
    	standard set by society that says we should all have a mate.
    
    						Carla

re; original entry vs. .11;

I was hoping to clarify, through what was written, that you *do not* have to 
come from a home where parents are alcoholics, substance abusers, or just plain 
abusive.  All it takes to develop co-dependent relationships with people is 
*abuse*, and you *have* experienced this.  The results between you and those 
who were children of substance abusers/abusive, is the same.  You tend to avoid 
getting close to someone, which is exactly your complaint;
        
-->I've built this barrier around me. I have had so many terrible relationships
-->that it is really effecting me. 
-->I was abused in two of them. 

>I'm to the point
>now where I don't trust any of them enough to go out with them. 

Not trusting, because you've trusted before, and been abused.  You said your 
previous relationships were terrible.  I assume that the two in which you were 
abused, means that you were physically abused.  What about the mental abuse, 
like lies, cheating, etc?

>I don't feel
>I'll be abused again, but I'm scared of being hurt. 

Being hurt=mental abuse

>Things seem to be so
>peachy in the beginning, and then wham, you've been sucked in and then 
>they leave or you find out they're sleeping with someone.
>I question his motives. I think
>that this really can't be true. What's wrong with him? 

Your reaction to this man is based upon previous abuse.

>I am a very outspoken, independent,
>and confindent individual, but this aspect of my life I haven't any control
>over. 

Maybe it would be to your advantage to realize the depth and severity of 
relationships in which you were abused, and what defenses you may have erected 
that might be inappropriate in the present situation.  I'm not a clinical 
psychologist (I have a bachelor's degree, whoppee), but the difference between 
.0 and .11 leads me to suspect that you are undergoing a bit of denial 
regarding the real *roots* of your fears about getting close.  I am not trying 
to sound critical, and hope that's not how it's coming off.  It's obviously 
more of a problem than can be brushed off, judging from .0; .11 takes a much 
lighter attitude.  Perhaps at least consulting EAP and getting a professional 
opinion would be very much to your benefit.  Much better for this to happen, 
than to avoid getting close to someone who potentially could be just the person 
you want, only to get into another abusive situation later on, when you feel 
"ready".
-->The barrier is growing stronger though, and I want to let it down!

Best to you!
Meredith

    
    	Re .13 
    
    I agree that you can "become what you behold" but it's not necessarily
    going to be pathetic. Being hurt = Mental abuse, eh? Where does
    simple "growing pains" leave off and the necessity for legal compensation 
    begin? *Everyone* learns at some point just what another, however
    trusted, can do to their heart. Boy/Girl...Girl/Boy...doesnt matter.
    Sooner or later, the "Thumbelina" is all of us gets wise to the
    "Great big scary world" and simply *compensates* perhaps through
    hesitation and reluctance. *I've* had my heart broken a number of
    times - let's see, there was that time, and the time after that,
    and the time after that, and the time after that - I spose you'll
    tell me that I'm *seeking* mentally abusive relationships! Or I'll
    get a "Well, maybe it's something you oughta think about, Joe" reply.
    Bullsh*t. I've gotten *smarter*. I can identify the women who'll
    likely "tear me apart". My tastes have changed. I avoid opening certain
    possibilities. I'm a lot more careful. And as long as I dont make
    too many *assumptions* about people, I'm fairly confident that I
    wont write off someone who'd "be just fine", and that I can make an
    informed, intelligent choice in who I'd like to share some time
    with. People always want certainty and confidence: "How will I know"
    cries Whitney - without taking the time and putting forth the effort
    necessary to get it. Of course, most people today are so damned
    fickle and impatient, they have to have your answer *right away*,
    before much "knowing" has been established! A year later, you find
    out...
    
    	Joe Jas