Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I think you're right - "chivalry" can be harmful if it prevents
    the recipient from learning how to take care of herself. Among the
    many things I bless my Dad for is his insistence that I learn how
    to use tools properly - including cars! He was always willing to
    show me how to use something, or let me work it out myself, rather
    than leaping in to do it for me. (He does like to help out, of course,
    but only when invited; he knows how touchy I am about doing things
    myself.)
    
    I'm a bit surprised about the tire-changing, though. My driver's
    ed. course included a session of tire-changing in the parking lot;
    I'd assumed it was a standard part of the curriculum, like seeing
    those movies about teenagers driving in front of trains...
    
    Re learning these things: I'd recommend practicing your tire skills
    (?) when you *don't* need them. It's a lot easier to read the manual
    and find all the bits and pieces in daylight, in your driveway,
    rather than on a twisty road at night (invariably the place where
    flats occur).
    
    -b

    Having learned to drive in the snow (Upstate New York) and then
    relearned in Massachusetts after many years on the West Coast, I
    can sympathize.
    
    While I can change a tire and the oil in my car, you will never
    catch me doing it if there is a chivalrous male around to volunteer.
    I believe we (women) should know how, but not necessarily feel we
    have to.
    
    Easy enough to learn -- might be a good excuse to meet an interesting
    neighbor:  "Excuse me, but could you show me how so I can be prepared?"
    Good luck!
    
    jh
    

    You're right about learning to change the tire (I do change oil
    and such myself, I learned when there was no one around to "teach"
    me).  Also, driver's education is (was) not required when I got
    my driver's license, or at least not where I'm from.
    
    It's just so important to know how to do these things myself, driving
    in inclemant weather, etc.  Yes, it's great to have someone who's
    willing to do these things for me.  But, it's even more important
    to be able to do these things for myself.  After all, I believe
    that I'm the only person I can *realistically* rely on.
    
    
    SandyC
    

    
    
    By and large, I haven't known many women that ever had any inclination
    to learn this sort of thing.  My wife would never think of learning
    to change the oil in her car, change a tire or do any of the hundred
    and one myriad "dirty" things involved in maintaining a household.
    It used to frustrate me completely until not too many years ago
    I just gave up completely - it will never happen with her.  HOWEVER,
    I have two daughters (5 and 11) and you can be DAMN sure that they'll
    be a little more self-sufficient.
    
    Mark
    
    

There are some things that I *know how* to do, like change a flat tire, but
just don't have the *physical* strength to carry it out!  I wanted to learn
how.. so I could be prepared and self sufficient  and all that... but when
it came down to actually having the flat, I couldn't get the lug nuts loose
from my wheels... in fact standing my weight on the bar wrench didn't do
it for me either, so I was thankful when a gentleman offered to *do it*
for me.  I'm not a 98 lb. weakling either, but I do recognize that I do have
certain limitations!  BTW, the gentleman couldn't *do it* either, and it
took having the car towed to a garage where they had some kind of electric
tool that unwound the lug nuts to get the tire off.  Ugh.

Penny

    
    
	I agree, it's important to be able to know how to handle an
    emergency whether that be car trouble or anything else.  You never
    know when you'll be in a situation when you only have yourself to
    depend upon.  When I have a flat, I usually prefer to use my AAA
    card that I pay more and more for each year! :-)
    
    As for this snow business, what are you talking about??  It suppose
    to be 88 today in the L.A. area! ;->
    
    
    Donna

Re:  .6

>There are some things that I *know how* to do, like change a flat tire, but
>just don't have the *physical* strength to carry it out! . . . . but when
>it came down to actually having the flat, I couldn't get the lug nuts loose
>from my wheels. . . . it took having the car towed to a garage . . . to get
>the tire off.  Ugh.

Kudos to you for trying!  If you have found that you can't get the lug nuts
off your car, it may help to buy a new lug wrench (should cost less than $10
from an auto parts store) that is cross shaped.  (Make sure that you get one
that correctly fits the nuts on your car, though.)  With one of those you can
easily put *much* more twisting force on the nuts than you can with the sort
of wrench that usually comes with the car.  That may save you a trip to the
garage some day.

					--Q (Dick Wagman)

    Well the last time I got a flat I called my husband. Then I went
    into the trunk to get out the spare and the jack and was trying
    to get the jack to come out of the wheel well when he arrived to
    help me out...turned out that I had to crank the dern thing to get
    it off the fixture it was on. So in addition to knowing how to
    change a tire it is also necessary to familiarize yourself with
    out the various implements are stored in the particular car you
    are driving.
    
    and as to getting the lug nuts off. You can *jump* on the cross
    shaped wrench which will often be enough to eventually losen the
    nuts. To jump on it without stripping it you have to support the
    other end of the wrench on a rock or something so that you get
    a twisting motion not a twisting plus bending motion.
    Also, the next time that you get new tires and they tighten
    the nuts with the pneumatic drill ask them to make sure that they
    don't do it so tightly that you can't undo them yourself if
    necessary.
    
    Finally there are driving schools that teach winter driving skills.
    
    Bonnie

    Sorry Bonnie,  I would not recomend jumping on the spanner wrench
    for two reasons.  1 you could bend it or hurt yourself and 2 you
    are exerting more force in a downward motion that in the twisting
    that you are trying to get.  My wife is VERY petite so I invested
    in a spanner wrench, and a 2"x2' pipe to use as a sort of breaker
    bar.  at just over five foot and under a hundred pounds this comes
    in handy.  It works well.  All you do is put the spanner on the
    lug, then put the bar over the uppermost head of the spanner and
    PULL.  It works.  The last time she had a flat she had to use this
    method due to the A**H**ES at the garage putting the lugs on too
    goddarn tight with the pneumatic drive.  AND SHE ASKED THEM NOT
    TO DO IT TOO.  Some people are just plain jerks.  
                              Hope this helps,    @L

    Should we rename this note 'How to change a tire'?
    
    As far as auto repairs/maintinance goes, let's not get too one sided.
     It is generally assumed that males know about cars and females
    do not.  This is not true all the time.  It's frustrating when I
    see a woman on the side of the road with the hood up and a gaggle
    of men helping her out, yet I have to wait for AAA because I am
    a man with car trouble.  Problem is, with few exceptions, I know
    squat about cars.  Anywho, on to the topic...
    
    While chivalry may often be misguided, it may also be a lost
    opportunity.  When you have car trouble, or plumbing problems or
    what-ever, and help is offered, take *full* advantage of it.  You
    would be suprised at how much you can learn simply by watching,
    and seldom are questions rejected out of hand.  I have learned quite
    a bit in this way and the lessons seem to stick better than those
    learned in a classroom.
    
    So don't look at it as 'he's doing it for me', because that is all
    it will be.  Rather see it as a private tutor lesson and gleen it
    for all that it is worth!
    
    jim
    

    re: winter driving skills
    
    The way I learned was on a very slippery parking lot in the middle
    of the night, skidding around at the direction of a friend.  You
    learn how to _play_ with the car when there is no traction and then
    you know (both with your head and your body) how to handle the thing
    in an emergency.
    
    Unfortunately, my new car is front wheel drive and has different
    reactions, so I've gotta get out there the next time it snows and
    I'm not on my way to or from work.
    
    Lee

    I just wanted to say, don't feel bad about not being able to get
    the lug nuts off. I'm 6'6" 260 pounds and I too have trouble getting
    the lug nuts off after some of those aforementioned a**h**es have
    taken thier Pneumonic(pre-moronic) wrench to it. It is impossible
    to get the force that they get with those dumb wrenches from the
    average human body.
    
    					Geoff

    Get a hunk of pipe that fits over the wrench to increase leverage.
    The technical term for one of these is "breaker bar".

    The major reason for the "breaker bar" is to be able to remove the
    lugs WITHOUT jumping of the wrench. Bulk or strength has nothing
    to do with it, leverage is the key.  BTW: I am 6'3" at 250lbs and
    even I HAVE had to use it.  @L

    Story : Back about 15 years ago I had a Dodge van. I went to remove
    the rear tire, and couldn't get the lug nuts off. I took the truck
    to a local garage and asked him to loosen them with the air driver.
    When I got home I *still* couldn't remove them. Back to the garage.
    That's when I learned that on one side of the car, the lugs were
    LEFT hand thread. Supposedly so that the rotation of the wheels
    wouldn't loosen the lugs. I believe this is no longer done, but,
    is your car perchance an ancient Chrysler ? 

        Dana

    Can we please continue discussion of the ons and offs of lug nuts
    in CARBUFFS, and accept "tire changing" as just an example of typical
    chivalrous behavior?
    
    					Steve

    in re: changing tires.  I used to help my dad switch from regular
    tires to snow tires every fall, and back again every spring.  I
    LIKED helping him with those bothersome little chores (like checking
    the car's vital fluids, and getting it started when it flooded and
    all).  
    
    in re: chivalry misplaced.  YES.  One place I have seen it happen
    often (having spent so much time in electronics labs through high
    school and college) is when there is a male/female set of lab partners
    and rather than explain what he is doing, or let her do it, the
    male of the couple just goes ahead and does all the work and lets
    the young lady (with her neat handwriting, I presume) write up the
    lab and do all the calculations.  I was once in a chem course in
    college and my male lab partner started in on this.  So I switched
    and got a female partner...we both learned a lot and neither of
    us felt "stupid" or "belittled" while sitting around while someone
    else did the work.  
    
    Then there's the male teachers, some of whom will crane their neck
    over at a female struggling to get some lab done and shake their
    head and either do it for them, or say, "there, there, that's okay,
    don't bother," with an implied "I understand, you're a girl and
    it's hard for girls to understand these technical things."
    
    
    Chivalry my foot.
    
    
    -Jody
        

    
    I've learned that you can't rely on anyone but yourself, so if you
    want it done right...you must learn to do it yourself. 
    

    When I was leaving HL0 Friday around noon, there were several cars
    just spinning their wheels trying to get out of their parking places.
    I was reaching my car when I saw another woman trying to push someone
    who was stuck out of her parking space.  I'm rather small, but I
    thought that maybe between the two of us could manage to push the
    car out, since it was a small car.  We did, getting soaking wet
    in the process.  We went our way, and, of course I couldn't get
    mine out of its parking place.  I looked up and three "gentlemen"
    appeared and helped me.  I can't tell you how much I appreciated
    that, also the woman who I helped push the other car had waited
    to make sure that I got out.  That just goes to show that chivalry
    (today) isn't necessarily the actions of a man towards a woman, it 
    the actions of a person towards another person.  I wanted to tell
    them and anyone else who helps a stranger how much I appreciate
    their assistance.
    
    This note really wasn't intended to knock anyone who helped another
    person, rather to encourage people to think about whether you are
    actually helping that person, or doing it for that person.  I'm
    learning things now that I wish I had years ago.  At the time it
    was great that someone wanted to do it for me, but now that I have
    to do it myself, I realize I should have stressed the word *help*.
    
    Sandy

    I am surprised that throughout this discussion regarding the difficulty
    of loosening lug nuts none have mentioned the use of ANTI-SIEZE
    COMPOUND available at almost all auto parts stores. Simply brush
    on all threads (brush provded in can) prior to putting the nuts
    on. Of course this may not solve the problem when you have the flat,
    therefore you may want to remove all tires when you have the time
    and help captive. If you don't have the compound available, simply
    oiling the threads will work as well.
    SORRY STEVE......I COULDN'T RESIST!