Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I wouldent make a general statement on that to save my life but
    in some cases I've been in that seems to have held true and others
    not even close. I'd say the same applies to men some I know have
    to bitch about something all the time.
    I think the term that covers it best is "unhappy with life".      
    
    
    -jerry
    

Like the song goes, "It's cruel to be kind - in the right measure"
	Joe
< Note 445.3 by RANCHO::HOLT "Prismatic Outlook" >
                                     -<  >-

    
    Women seem to be attracted more by jerks than by normal fellows,
    provided the jerk is good looking, has a macho vehicle, is
    sufficiently amenable to female manipulation, and has an IQ not
    exceeding that of a California grey squirrel.

>>> < Note 445.3 by RANCHO::HOLT "Prismatic Outlook" >
    
>>>    Women seem to be attracted more by jerks than by normal fellows,
>>>    provided the jerk is good looking, has a macho vehicle, is
>>>    sufficiently amenable to female manipulation, and has an IQ not
>>>    exceeding that of a California grey squirrel.



       excuse me?  did you forget the ":-)" ?

                                                 tlr

    re.3 & re.5
    I sure he had to have forgotten his :-).  I went out with a man
    from "Men in Motion" a couple of times.  The man was gorgeous,
    made good money (he also had a few "business" adventures), had
    a fair to moderate IQ, and didn't excite me half as much as 
    some of my not so good-looking, not even good-looking, and down
    right ugly boyfreinds.  I didn't even try to encourage a relation-
    ship with him.
    
    Lets look at the men who, no matter how much they complain, will
    stick with a b**ch through thick and thin.  They may have had a
    real *nice* girlfreind, maybe she treated him like a king (or close
    enough) and he got bored.  He finds a beautiful "Ice Queen" and
    forget it!  He'll lick up her crumbs and kiss her spike heels for
    life! (How's that for another narrow minded statement?)
    
    
                                        cj
    
                                          (really DECXPS::CJACQUES)
    

    RE .0 There are indeed some women like that. And after encountering
    a few it's easy to draw the conclusion that mistreatment is a
    valid technique for maintaining a relationship. The alternative
    course of action is harder - find a person you can be happy with
    and who is happy with you. Bad attitudes are so much easier to
    maintain than good ones, alas.
    
    Dana

       I went out with a woman once who didn't appreciate what a
       wonderful guy I am, so all women are probably the same way.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    I think there is something wrong somewhere when a person stays in
    a relationship with a person who is abusive. A person who stays
    with a monster perhaps feels that he/she doesn't deserve better.
    
    Some people make a hobby out of getting someone to change to their
    liking. Sort of a way of testing their power?
    
    A few years ago I had a relationship with a woman who was mostly
    very inconsiderate. Why did I stay with her? Because I felt I didn't
    deserve better, _and I kept hoping she'd change._  I didn't think I
    could get anyone better.
    
    Finally, I woke up and began seeing my self-worth. I started dressing
    better, working out, lost some weight, changed my attitude. You
    know what? She began seeing me change and hated it! The most
    significant part of my change was my change in attitude. I would
    not take her abuse any more. I broke up with her. 
    
    Because I started feeling better about _me_, I started dating nicer
    women, because I felt I deserved them. Much healthier! 
    
    Most women who have good feelings about themselves like nice guys, and 
    most men who have good feelings about themselves like nice women. 
    
    You know, I think the most exciting person you can run into is the
    one who's interested in _you_, not just ``mothering'' you, but helping
    bring out the best in you...
    
    ...period!
    
    WW
                             

    
    Unfortunately, at least its starting to seem true to myself, 
    "Nice guys finish last...."  But that doesn't mean I'm going
    to change and start treating everyone like dog waste...
    
    -dave

    
    
    HEY .9, I think your 110% right!  Self worth is EVERYTHING!!! 
    
    
          jack

    
    
         You know ... I sit here and read what you all
       are saying ... I can only base the answer to this
       on the way things have gone for me and what I have
       seen to be true.
    
         Two live_in girlfriends in 7 years .... Both whom
       I would have done almost anything for. Now I'm alone,
       again. I ask myself, why ? I must hold the answer some-
       where in my mind .... and I do ... I just can't beleve
       it. Both ladies did the same thing. The first got married
       to a guy 5 months after we split ( she was playing while
       I was working ). Now, well soon after, she tells me and I
       have seen the way he treats her. Good beatings, not showing
       up after work, you know, all the things nice guys do. I just
       wonder why she puts up with it, I would never do this to any
       girl, I think it's in_human ( some peoples kids ).
    
        The second girl, we just split up 3 months ago, told me right
       up front why she was leaving ( I can praise her for that ).
        She told me it was not me in general, just she couldn't handle
       NOT having to ever worry about anything. She felt like I was tring
       to BUY her by giving her anything she wanted and I suppose things
       she didn't want ( Diamonds,Gold,Opels,Flowers.. etc ). I always
       made sure the bills got paid, made sure she had money (she worked
       also). The most ackward part of it all is, she moved in with
       my best friend ( so I thought ), the differ of us .. I have not
       a heck of alot .. he has nothing ... well a motorcycle (kow 1000J)
       and he drives one of the camaros I bought for her this past spring.
    
        So .... If you dare ..... try to explain this .. logically..
    
                                               _Skip
    

    I think that alot of it has to do with challange. If everything
    is bing given to you you feel useless. I am also the type that will
    do anything for anyone and have lost more than one girlfriend because
    of this. You have to let people do things for you also. I think
    that sometimes when a person is getting everything, except an argument,
    from someone else they tend to do things to try to get a reaction
    out of the person who is doing the giving. A person has to be shown
    that they are really cared for and this cannot be done by buying
    everything for them, though I must admit that flowers once in awhile
    don't hurt:-). If you are never wanting or unhappy than happiness
    doesn't mean anything because there is nothing to compare it too.
    
    						Have a very very merry
    
    
    						Geoff

RE .13

	Sheesh, if I wasn't straight as an arrow, *I*'d date you! (But
	never fear, Mike is VERY hetrosexual)  Sounds to me like you
	were buying her everything.. Sounds to me like she got bored..

	I only date people that make me feel good. Whether that is
	someone I can laugh with or someone I can cuddle with or better
	yet, both, I try my best to look out for #1, me... Frankly,
	my friends, I don't give a damn about people who only want
	to use me or want to be used..

	Special friends ARE special. They are the people I can learn
	to care about.. alot...

							mike

    as a typical noter I shall ignore anything said by anyone.
    
    
    easy hunh?
    
    re.0 right! try to treat a woman nicely and she will freak !
                women who can't bitch about their """"""""SO's"""""""
    
    

    re .0
    
    Having "nothing to b*tch about" means either 1) the guy and the
    relationship are PERFECT or 2) they are too hopeless to work on.
    
    1) has never happened to me <sniffle> but when I find myself with
    someone who adores me and who I am pretty sure will not work out
    in the long run, I don't complain about what's wrong (everything)
    -- I just leave.
    
    If there's ANY hope for the relationship, it's worth working on
    -- and "working on" a relationship means speaking up about the things
    that bother me (ie: b*tching).
    
    Lee

    I've been in and out of more relationships (and "types") then
    I have fingers and toes, and wouldn't want to count them anyways.
    (No, not bragging, just stating my credentials :-} ).
    
    I have had a couple of previously mentioned men. They bought me
    plenty, no not everything, but an exaggerated amount of flowers
    and/or cards, and cutesy little gifts, so many that you lose
    your appreciation of these things and him.  Did I leave him
    because of this?  Not really, I have found that in most cases
    these men were also devoting most if not all of their time to
    me.  They stopped seeing their own friends.  They wouldn't make
    plans on weekends unless consulting me first.  They would make
    me feel like they had no life beyond me.  If I wanted to do
    something else, I felt like I was letting them down.  Leaving
    them to find time to fill.  
    
    I need a good deal of time for myself, because I've taught myself
    that this time is important.  It makes the time I spend with someone
    else more enjoyable.  I have experiences to contribute to a
    conversation, and like to hear what he enjoyed while not with me.
    Perhaps find new things to go and see or do together afterwards.
    
    I'm leaning toward rambling,  so will still my fluttering fingers..
    
                                        cj *->
    

    This may be 1) wrong, 2) true only in Other People's case's, or
    3) so sideways to reality that it doesn't count, but 4) it could
    be true:
    
    A "nice guy" may be doing all the wrong things.
    
    You open a door for me?  That's nice.  OR  You are subliminally
    implying that neither do I have the brains to figure out a doorknob,
    nor the manual dexterity to twist it, nor the strength to actually
    push it open.
    
    You loan me money when I'm scraping bottom?  That's nice.  OR  You
    are telling me that I couldn't possibly figure out how to manage
    this situation, probably because I'm too self-centered to give up
    even the most extravagant frill, in addition to lacking even a
    shred of foresight.
    
    You are always "there for me"?  That's nice.  OR  You think I lack
    the intellectual resources to entertain myself, or will become
    suicidal in your absence.
    
    The second set of attitudes would not necessarily be held consciously.
    The nice guy might eventually be sent away with the sincerely
    believed-in dismissal of "You're too nice for me.", because the
    erstwhile partner does not realize that the correct reason is,
    "Your patronizing, overbearing attitude is driving me up the wall."
    
    Even a three-year old would rather "do it myself"; do not assume
    that an adult human has abandoned this viewpoint of vigorous
    individuality.
    
    							Ann B.

    After many years, much experience and some observation I have come
    to the conclusion that coupling is initially a game or a ritual.
    And I don't think it is wrong.  
    
    Watch animals....does the female ever allow the male to mount
    instantly?  Watch birds, watch the male dance, watch the female
    ignore...then when he almost gives up she condescends.
    
    You would think that with the intelligence we possess that these
    rituals or games would no longer be necessary...but...sigh...they
    are.  A close friend told me this morning how they really like this
    person and think that the feeling is mutual...but they are going
    to try very hard not to be anxious.
    
    But coupling is not all intelligence it is also instinct...and some
    of our behaviors are because of this instinct from way back when
    we were evolving into the humans we are now....
    
    

Interesting this should come up just now.  I happened to be reading Time mag-
azine over the Christmas break, and came across an article about women who
seek out abusive men.  Seems to me that the behavior they were talking about
is merely an extension of what we're talking about here.

I really don't understand it though!  I could see, perhaps, the first few
times that maybe you don't see the connection between the type of man you're
dating and how he ends up treating you.  But after _awhile_, you've _gotta_
see that it's a bad situation and that you're only hurting yourself seeking
out this type of person!  And yet there's documented cases of women who keep
doing it; moreover, I read that not only does it happen in less educated
circles, but with the middle class and affluent as well.

I must admit, I don't understand the initial "charm" which seems to be there,
but especially why anyone would put up with behavior like that!  I know I
wouldn't, and haven't.  It takes a lot for me to leave a person, but if the
other person's behavior gets bad enough I _will_ leave.  It's all you can do,
no matter how much you love them or how hard it is.

For me, I guess the bottom line is that if the other person doesn't like the
"plain ordinary 'nice' guy", then I probably won't like them either so what's
the point?

And YES, not to be sexist here I agree with .6 in that there are surely guys
who do this type of thing too.  I'm just not one of them!    ;-)


Brian

    It's interesting that someone decided that the world of men can
    be divided nicely into camps of ``nice'' and ``bad'' guys.
    
    I have a feeling that the so-called ``nice'' men who are a problem
    to women are men who are faking being ``nice,'' or are obviously
    being nice for favors. If it's in you to
    buy flowers, send sappy cards, open doors, and so on, then for heaven's
    sake _keep doing it_; that's you! 
    
    If women a, b, c, d, and e don't like these things, maybe woman
    f will. 
    
    Hey, call me boring. Wrong or right, I'm comfortable being me. You
    have to live with yourself first.
    
    
    WW
    

RE: .19

I can't think of many people that have the train of logic you describe, I know
lots of people who open doors to be nice etc...

"Even a three-year old would rather "do it myself"; do not assume that an adult
human has abandoned this viewpoint of vigorous individuality."

A 3 year old enjoys doing it for themselves because 'doing it' is a new
experience of exploring the world.  Unfortunately that enjoyment *does* wear
off a long time before adulthood; teenagers are well noted for not doing
for themselves.

Jim.

    re: .0
    
    I think his premise is basically right .... for him. There are a
    lot of losers out there, and in order to maintain the "feeling"
    that "ALL men are jerks"; some women date only jersk; and if the
    "jerks" try to reform and treat those losers well ... well then
    the lady seems wrong ... so she leaves him for some other loser.
    
    Of course, the roles can be completely reversed, where some men
    prefer losers to maintain their opinion that "ALL women etc etc".
    
    Fortunately, as people migrate through life; those that prefer to
    grow, develop, learn -- their is somewhere a companionable person
    of the oppsosite sex doing the same --- and when each gets dumped
   by their stagnating "loser" the time becomes right to meet one another;
    not always easy to do-- but -- where people are willing to admit
    that the "possibility of doing so exists", so then it become possible
    for it to happen.
    
    Another version has it, is that there is really no such thing as
    "losers" and "winners" -- they are just people who have developed
    one way, and the others didn't change much at all .... fortunately
    again ... with people being people ... the "unchanged" ones also
    tend to meet eventually, and the cycle continues (note: I did not
    say repeat ) ... 
    
    A problem with saying someone is a "loser" or a "winner" automatically
    places a "label" one them; and if the victim chooses to accept the
    label as valid (poor schmucks ! ); then they go downhill from there,
    feeeling that all is lost (for them).
    
    Anyway .. tell your buddy to stick it in his ear (unless you want
    to belive he's right !
    
    Bob+3

    

    
    I, along with I'm sure many women, have dated my share of "losers".
    But I have also dated "nice guys".  I don't like guys who are poss-
    essive.  By possessive I mean he has to everything I'm doing and
    where I am at all times.  I dated a guy like that.  I had just 
    graduated from high school and a friend had a party.  Myself, and
    Eddy and a couple other friends went.  Another of my very best friends
    was there.  Just happened to be male.  I went to say hi and Eddy
    demanded to know where I was going, who he was, how I knew him,
    etc. etc.  Needless to say, that relationship didn't last very
    long.
    
    But I am very happy now.  With a "nice guy".  He does 'nice' things
    for me like balloons and cards etc.  He opens doors for me and tells
    me when he really likes what I'm wearing.  But he doesn't ''overdo''
    it.  So I can really appreciate it when he does it.
    
    He had a nasty relationship with a girl just before we met and it
    really messed up his head.  It still hurts him and it is a subject
    that we leave alone.
    
    So I believe that everyone has had their share of "losers" but that
    doesn't mean that that's all there is out there.  And if women (and
    men) don't like "nice" that 's their choice.  To me, I think it
    would depend on their environment when growing up.  For people who's
    parents fought all the time or the wife/husband beat the other,
    their view of relationships may be distorted.  That's what they've
    lived with so they think that's the way it should be.
    
    I think I've rambled enough so I will give this one a rest.....
    
    
    		JJ
    
    
    
    

    What an interesting range of responses!!!  Got my blood boiling
    in parts and splitting my gut laughing in others.
    
    Don't have much to add except that through counseling and some
    other programs I'm involved in I'm realizing there are not really
    any "losers" or "winners".  I've been in some inappropriate
    relationships and have found that both of us had old tapes playing
    that were so loud we couldn't play some new ones.  I definitely
    agree that self-worth is especially important in deciding what you
    will and will not accept.
    
    Just for grins....when a woman talks about something that bothers
    her, it's called b*tching.....but a man just talks....excuse me
    for my ignorance, but I don't understand the difference.....
    
    RE: 6 & 7..........My hat is off to you.....
    
    RE: 21  I recommend you read the book "Men Who Hate Women and the
            Women Who Love Them" by Dr. Susan Forward.  It may just
            help you understand that women do not stay in abusive
            relationships because they "like" it.  It is an extremely
            complicated issue.
    
    Thank God that with the help of therapy and my self-worth slowly
    starting to emerge I no longer have to accept the unacceptable.
    It took a lot of years and several inappropriate relationships to
    learn that I do have a choice in how I live my life.
    

	RE: .26

	Nice to see you back Cheryl!

	RE: Women and Bitching.. I bitch too..  Boy do I EVER bitch
	at times.. We all do.. Somehow though, calling a woman 
	"a Bitch" hurts more, I think, that calling a man "a Bastard"
	Too bad.. Maybe women need better shitty names to call us?
	FYI guys, calling a woman a bitch is the WRONG thing to
	do in almost ANY situation..  Call me a bastard and I
	just say "No I'm not" and shrug it off..

	Did I digress? Probably but this it notes..

						mike

    re .27
    Nope, I call women bastards too. The real equivalent to calling
    a woman a bitch, is too call a man a pr*ck.8-) The trouble is,
    folks are too lazy to remember all the terms floating about. 8-)
    
    Bob Mc
    (and the generations always try to come up with *new* terms to
    set them apart from other generations and add confusion to the
    thing)

RE:..."is too call a man a pr*ck"

	Ooooo, forgot about THAT one!!  Yer right Bob...

							mike

    
    RE .19  Just when are you going to stop deliberately finding 
            evil and willful wrong doing in everything a man does ?
            For crying out laud, the man treats the woman with 
            kindness and caring and you make him out to be some 
            kind of jerk, with malicious intents. Why don't you just
            knock it off, its getting REAL old at this stage.
    
    On the other side
    
    Theres a song thats been around for some time now, " Ladies love
    outlaws". A female friend of long standing once told me that women
    are always attracted to "rascals and rouges", but will never marry
    one. At the aforementioned nice guys finish last. So where does that
    leave a guy ? somewhere in the middle I suppose.
    
    I had someone I cared for greatly leave me because I was too nice.
    I couldn't be all the things she wanted me to be, and she wouldn't
    accept me just on the merits of the things I did satisfy. On the
    other side, what attracted her was the rascal/rouge side of me.
    So I am of the opinion that one needs to find the balance of these
    things that matches up with the needs of the other.
    
                                                  Bob B

    I know it's been awhile since this topic was active but I feel
    compelled to add my observations.  One of the reasons that some
    of the nice guys finish last is because they put themselves in the
    position of rescuer.  By giving too much materially and emotionally
    he puts the woman in a dependant position.  Anyone who's ever 
    borrowed money from a friend knows that there is a certain uneasiness
    and possibly resentment towards the loaner until the debt is repaid.
    In this way the rescuer becomes the victim.  In a romantic realtionship
    usually the rescuer will either be made miserable by the anger or
    resentment generated by the "debt" (either material or emotional)
    or will be dumped.  My rule of thumb is, be generous but not too
    generous and _never_ lend money to a SO.
    
    Nanci

    Re: .32
    
    Thanks for that input.  Something I neglected to mention was
    that if someone is _too_ generous it appears (to me at least)
    that he/she is trying to "buy" my affection.  This leads me
    to mistrust (thank you for the proper term, -e-) the person.
    This situation feels to me as if the person doesn't have
    a strong enough sense of self-worth to let their personality
    stand on it's own.  Heaven knows _I_ don't want to be responsible
    for someone else's sense of self.  I have enough trouble main-
    taining my own.  SO...when this sort of thing happens to me
    I generally run as fast as possible for the nearest exit.
    
    Nanci