Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Quite some time ago I dated a lady, who after several months of
    dating revealed to me that she had in fact been raped by a family
    member. It never seemed to be a problem as far as our intimate
    contact was concerned. I sensed a nervousness on her part when we
    still in the early stages of our relationship so I never pushed
    her. Finally she asked me why, since so many other men would have
    started grabbing right away. When I explained that I did sense a
    hesitancy on her part she agreed that that was true.
    After that there never seemed to be a problem, we spent several
    years together in a beautiful relationship. We've since gone our
    seperate ways and only now do I look at the possibility of her
    incounter as perhaps making it impossible or at least difficult
    to make a commitment, because that is why we broke up. So in my
    experience it was not sex that was a problem, but commitment.
    I sure that this must have an even greater effect on some women,
    and only time, compassion, and understanding will help them to
    realize that:
         1. It's not their fault.
         2. their not dirty because of it.
         3. That they can live a happy life afterwards.
    It's to bad that there is still this type of problem in this day
    and age, and I hope some day that we can look at this problem as
    a thing of the past.

    
    	I would like to encourage all men who encounter a woman
    who has been thru this to urge her to get counseling for several
    reasons.  It will help her to get over the pain, it will help 
    her to deal with any guilt she may be feeling and it will help
    the two of you to continue a loving and healthy relationship. 
    
    	I think that rape...be it violent or date rape...is something
    that requires professional help to deal with.  And I speak from
    experience! 
    
    	My
    

    Mike your note was a honest expression of your feelings and
    contains nothing that anyone feminist or not should blast you
    for.

    In my case, I felt very sad also (upon hearing about it). Fortunately,
    the lady had come to grips with it and it wasn't bothering her very
    much. It helped me understand some of the things in her past. She
    was an adolescent at the time and it effected her teen years (relat-
    ionships) heavily. Her abusive father had more of an effect, but
    thats another subject. If the guy was still around, or I knew his
    name and bumped into him, I'd apply Mike's methods.
    
    Bob Mc
    and God help anyone that inflicts this pain on my family while I
    have breath in my body!

    
    	I couldn't help but love a woman so much  and try to give her
    immense understanding to her feelings at times of intimacy, be it
    physical or emotional. If she wanted to talk about I'd leave work
    in a second. It means that much. It means building a stronger 
    relationship and a better understanding to hold us together. I would
    be the strength she needs to get out of bed every day.
    	And the scumbag best be dead this ordeal enter my family!
    
     Dave

    RE: .3
    
    " I think that rape...be it violent or date rape"
    
    RAPE is a violent crime, period. How can you possibly even
    begin to seperate the two! The act is violent, wether or not
    any other type of physical punishment is committed. One of the
    problems with date rape is that we tend to put it into some 
    sort of special category as if it were less serious. It is JUST
    as serious!
    
    Your advice on counseling is excellent and contrary to some
    notes, I feel a woman never gets over it, but somehow learns
    to live with the pain and lead as normal a life as possible.
    
    						Art
    

        As I have said in Sexcetera way back when, and in WomanNotes
        more recently, the value that I see in distinguishing between
        date rape and classical "violent" rape is that the causes and
        the method of preventing the two may very well be different.
        This doesn't mean that it is any "better" to experience one
        than another.
        
        A plausible analogy is the range of homicides, from first degree
        murder through involuntary man-slaughter. If you suffer one of
        these it doesn't much matter which, you will be dead and that's
        pretty traumatic. From the point of view of the victim, they are
        not terribly distinct, unless there is an after-life and the
        victim is extremely understanding and can see the distinction.
        Likewise, any sort of rape or sexual asault is a very serious
        thing, especially viewed from the victim's perspective.
        
        On the other hand, the legal system for justifiable reasons
        punishes different types of homicide in differnt manners. Not
        only that, but the reasons that each occurs and the ways that
        you would attempt to prevent them are quite different. Full
        blown first degree murder is pretty hard to prevent. If someone
        has decided in cold blood that it is worth their while to kill
        someone, you aren't going to talk them out of it, or avoid it
        through education. At the other end of the spectrum, many
        involuntary manslaughters might be avoided. 
        
        Rapists who jump out of the bushes at strangers are pretty hard
        to stop. Dealing with that problem may mean fundemental changes
        in society or greatly increased protective measure, or may just
        not be completely feasible. At the other end of the spectrum, a
        number of date rapes may be avoidable if we can help men to
        understand that "No" in all its forms means "No", (which may
        seem fairly obvious, but which we are not in fact teaching very
        well) and in turn teach women to more clearly communicate the
        distinction between "yes" and "no". 
        
        Some "date rape" is just ordinary street rape between people who
        have some amount of acquaintance. Some date rape can honestly be
        the result of tragicly flawed communications. All of it, is very
        traumatic, and needs to be prevented. Understanding the kinds of
        things that can lead up to it and the nature of our societal
        responsibility for it is very important. 
        
        I hope I have made this clear. I'm very much not trying to blame
        the women in date rapes, or to deny the validity of their
        suffering. This is such an emotional issue that I much fear that
        someone will see what I am saying as implying one of those.
        
        Without going into the details--which I did in both Sexcetera
        and WomanNotes--let me say that my perspective is based at least
        in part on my own experience with being sexually assaulted, and
        that although I can see why my assailant may have interpretted
        my "no" as a "yes", I still hold him in extreme contempt. That
        doesn't preclude me from seeing that there may be reasons, and
        that there may have been things I could have done to better
        convey my meaning. 
        
        JimB.

Probably victims would do best to 'next' past this...



I wonder if anyone ever wonders if "rapists" ever 'get over' the act of rape? I
cannot imagine the act not having a severe effect on a human, making them
'incorrigable' (hopeless case)...

I doubt that anybody thinks of this, it's so much easier to dehumanize the
criminal, especially for the victim...  Yet, does this dehumanization encourage
and delay getting over the hate, anger, and bitterness of being a victim? 

Jim.

    That's pretty radical.  I think if I had such a thought, I'd keep it to
    myself.
    
    - M

    re: .9 (Jim Baranski)
    
    	Quite frankly, I really could care less and find your musing
    	highly distasteful, victim or no victim.
    
    						Carla
    

    RE: .11
      That's YOUR opinion.
    **SOME** wmnters told him and others (MEN) to go to "soapbox or
    Humanrelations" to ask questions, he did.  He is not in wmnts so
    let him say what he wants.
    
    Disclaimer:  I neither agree nor disagree with Jim but I think that
    he has a right to ask and say what he wants.  That's HIS opinion.
    

    RE .9  Jim,
    
    	When someone knows they've done something terrible, forgiveness
    is what they are lacking.  Once one has committed an evil act,
    the journey for forgiveness of the self can often only come by
    asking forgiveness from the victim or from God.   Without forgiveness,
    yes, I believe the perpetrator of a crime is damaged, perhaps even
    more permanantly than the victim.
    	I hope that helps toward answering your question.
    
    	Alan.

        As a victim, I don't think my assailant was much scarred by his
        sexual assualt or attempted rape on me. In point of fact, he was
        down right surprised that I thought that "no" could be taken to
        mean "no". I don't think that I ever go through to him. I expect
        that he continued in his way, convinced that he'd never done
        anything wrong. 
        
        This may mean that he is 'incorrigable', but I think the act
        results from the condition, and not the other way around. The
        act may reinforce it, but I don't suspect that it is a major
        factor. 
        
        As to whether the question is insensitive, and in poor taste, I
        will point out that it was behind a form feed and a warning that
        it might be unsettling to victims. I was grateful for that, as
        it gave me a moment to prepare to read it. I contemplated not
        reading it, but as a moderator, I felt obliged to read it, and
        besides, I do believe that attempting to understand victimizers
        is essential to combatting victimization. On the other hand, the
        question would have been easier to take if it had been posed by
        someone other than the person who wrote it. Somehow it felt like
        part of a pattern that implied considerably more sympathy with
        the rapists than was probably intended, and as such it did
        strike me as warranting the warning. 
        
        As moderator, I have as yet no opinion on the suitability of
        this note. I mention this only because I said above that my
        being a moderator was a reason for reading the note. As a victim
        of sexual assault, I feel I'm more involved than I care to be
        when making a moderator judgement. If my comoderators or a
        reader want me to form an opinion as moderator I will. 
        
        JimB.

    As a moderator, I think Jim Baranski is free to ponder aloud, as
    it were.  Sure, the thought makes me uncomfortable too, and I agree
    with others that most victimizers don't have any remorse about what
    they did.  And it is perfectly reasonable for any of us to offer
    our own views on the subject.
    
    				Steve

RE: .13

That was approximately what I wished to say...  Thank You...

I do feel that if we are to decrease the number of violent crimes, we must try
to understand criminals, understand what made them what they are, why they
continue to be what they are, and ask how we could change what they are.

Also, to be blunt, I *do* feel that victimizers hurt themselves as well as
others.  I know there are several religious proverbs along those lines, but they
escape me at the moment.

I do feel that worrying about victimizers is more productive in the long run. It
can prevent further victimization.  Worrying about victims does not. (not that
we should not do our best to help victims) 

Back to .13

Yes, when someone 'sin's (if you will allow such a term), they need to be able
to push aside their pride to realize that they have done 'sinned'; they need to
(I believe) realize that forgiveness is possible; they need to ask for, and be
given forgiveness.

Clearly not many rapists find themselves in a situation where they can admit to
having done something wrong.  It's kind of a contradiction, but I doubt that
they can ever imagine being forgiven for what they have done;  I do believe that
they feel that lack of forgiveness. 

So what do they do?  They block it out.  They become unfeeling.

I quite agree with you that the majority of victimizers *need* to be unfeeling;
that is a necessary trait to be able to victimize someone, and not feel their
hurt. My question is 'how did they get that way?'  How did they become so
unfeeling, so incorrigable?  'Which came first, the chicken or the egg?' Maybe
they 'worked up to it'? 

I do feel that the rapist is (or feelings that they are) gradually forced and
molded into being a rapist.  For that I have sympathy for them, because they are
being less than they could be.  

I do not see this as meaning that I feel any less for the victim.  I am amazed
that the FF was actually necessary and even deemed insufficient by some. I am
amazed that the idea that victimizers need to be forgiven is such a radical
idea.  (Do people see this as saying that vitims need to forgive? Not entirely
the same statement.) 

Jim.

 

    I can see Jim Baranski's point.  Drawing a very unlike comparison,
    how many dieters have said to themselves, "well, I've blown my
    diet now, might as well finish this box of cookies."?  I think this
    might be a much slighter version of the psychological state Jim's
    looking at.  A damned person, damned by society even if he/she is
    not religious, might well have the feeling that now that he/she's
    blown it, nothing can make it much worse.  So why not keep on
    doing terrible things - after all, if they catch me I'm already
    dead/locked up forever?
    
    Now, I'm not for pampering criminals.  What I am for is stopping
    crimes, and if looking at the psychology of repeat offenders can
    stop crimes, let's do it!
    
    --Louise

    Whatever is wrong with the rapist, it was wrong long before they
    raped.  The rapist might need forgiveness for the _crime_ but the
    problem is not just the rape -- it's what he was _saying_ by raping.
    He is saying "I can control _your_ body, I can control _you_, and
    I can do it any way I please."  The fact that he even _wants_ to
    control someone else's body is the sickness -- the rape is merely
    an expression of that sickness.  Being forgiven, forgiving himself
    for having raped, that's all well and good, but it won't make him
    a normal human being, a not_rapist, if he continues to want that
    control, if he continues to think that forcing someone to have sex
    against their will _is_ control.
    
    See?  The mind is sick.  The sickness expresses itself in rape.
    If that sickness is not fixed, the rapist is still a rapist, whether
    or not he ever does it again.  He'll find another way to violate,
    another way to control someone else.  Maybe that one will be perfectly
    legal.  He's still sick, sick, sick.
    
    [ps. yes Jim, the form-feed was necessary]
    
    Lee

    To paraphrase Rand, the desire for power over others is the worst
    form of self-esteem deficiency (sp?)
    

RE: .18

Thanks for the feedback, Lee...

What I was saying was quite like what Louise was saying...  Once you are damned
you might as well give in to your base impulses...  Sure, they were sick before
they attacked someone, but the feeling afterwards is that they cannot afford to
*ever* admit to themselves, or anybody that what they did was even *possibly*
wrong.  If they do, they damn themselves.

Whereas another person might have problems with controlling people, and might be
in a situation where they are manipulating someone into having sex with them,
but for one reason or another it does not happen.  It might be pointed out to
them what was happening, and because they do not have the guilt of committing
that violence, they might be able to say, 'Holy Shit, was that what I was
doing?', and be motivated to spend the effort on themselves to make sure nothing
like that ever happens again.

I see a difference between someone who controls because they like the power
trip, and someone who control in a particular instance because they want a
particular thing.  Neither is right, but the motives are different. 

I think that 99% of people have had problems with exerting undue control over
people at one time or another...  Is this a sickness?

RE: How do men handle rape victims

Here is something I remember being a definite no no...

(I think here a formfeed is necessary, details follow)



(Phew... after writing this, even third hand, I find it a heavy story)



I remember a friend at UM who had a date one night with a nice guy... they
really hit it off well real quick, or so it seemed...  About halfway through the
evening it came up that the woman had been raped about six months ago (no
details)  Later that evening they decided that they would go back to her house,
where he would spend the night (no promises of anything more or less).  

On the way home they stopped to neck for a while.  He started playing with the
buttons on her dress; when he unbuttoned one, she burst into tears.  He
confusedly, imediately stops, and tries to comfort her.  Eventually they end up
going back to her house, and "sleep"ing together in the living room.  However,
as well as they had originally felt about each other, they never 'dated' again.

What I heard later was that one of his motives for 'trying', was to 'show her
what it was supposed to be like'.  One of her feelings (not through anything the
guy did that I could tell) throughout the entire evening was that she herself
felt she *had* to please him.  She didn't say that he made her feel she had to
please him. 

Jim.

    Putting my tuppence in...
    
    Sometimes when reading Jim Baranski's notes, I'm not sure whether
    he's writing what he really feels, or he's just playing Devil's
    Advocate. It doesn't really matter, though, in the long run.
    
    What he brought up in .0 was discomforting, certainly. But it
    *needed* to be said. In the best tradition of Devil's Advocacy
    (whether or not that was Jim's intention), things like this need
    to be brought up if for no other reason than to make people think
    about the subject enough to straighten out in their own minds
    just what their positions are and why.
    
    There is nothing unhealthy about bringing up an alternate point
    of view. Condoning the expression doesn't mean condoning what's
    expressed.
    
    --- jerry

Thank You Jerry...

BTW, where's my personal name from? :-)

[ originally posted in Womannotes-V2 525.36 ]
  { =wn=  99 : Side Effects of Rape              }
  { =wn= 525 : Rape - Why? (&for responses to 99)}

re: 525.34 (One of Dick Wagman's questions in response to 99.29)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| And what can men do as friends/lovers/spouses/relatives to help support|
| women who have been victimized?                                        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Men as friends
--------------
My closest friend at the time of The Incident happened to be male.  His
reaction was to simply spend as much time with me as possible.  He studied
with me, ate with me, slept (literally) with me, held me when I cried or
woke up from a nightmare hitting him.  When he couldn't be with me, he made
sure someone else was.  He was an excellent listener, never asking too many
direct questions but always subtly challenging any absurd statement I made
with a passive maybe-it's-not-like-that observation.  Later, he told me he
was worried I would do something to harm myself.  He probably saved my
life.

Three years later, I am a transplant in a different place with different
and relatively new men friends.  Till most recently, none of my men friends
even knew.  The one that now does know asked me some very tough questions
about my feelings that I could not answer logically...which was slightly
startling to me.  But I am tough now, and can handle any question without
being hurt.  So maybe I am ready to start thinking about what happened so I
can eventually sleep normally.

Timing is important.  One year ago I would not have considered talking to
any male friend about this.  Don't press the issue if she is not somehow
indicating a need to talk about it.   If she does seem to need to talk, put
on a listening cap.  Reword your advice in the form of a question, because
she might be more inclined to accept conclusions she has reasoned out in
her mind instead of ones that you have thought through in yours.


Men as Lovers
-------------
First thought that comes to mind:  Too bad they can't be mind readers.

Knowing this isn't possible, and knowing men justifiably get tired of
either having to be mind readers or suddenly being abandoned, rejected, and
left in a state of confusion as to what they did wrong, I still find it
tough to discuss things I would be averse to doing because of The Incident.

Maybe a discussion could take place outside of the bedroom, but while
sharing an intimate moment together.  Ask her specific questions like
"Would it bother you if I did ....", so that the only thing she'll have to
say is either yes or no.  And in order to get the most honest response,
phrase your question so that there is no hint as to whether this is
something you really want to do or not.

When in bed, be aware of a quick mood change or a sudden resistance when
there was none before that might indicate something is feeling wrong.  Be
cautious with expressing sexual assertiveness, especially if it is of a
nature you have never expressed before.

Of course, when making love to someone who's most recent sexual experience
was a violent one, it is extremely important to be sincerely gentle and
take things very slowly.  I've read that men who make love to a woman the
first time after her rape find it quite exciting, as though they were
making love to a virgin.


Men as Relatives
----------------

I think men who are relatives can potentially be the most helpful of all,
dependent on a close relationship existing before the rape occurred.  This
especially applies to brothers.  You grew up with her and could know better
than any other person how she is likely to react to this experience.
Strong guidance might be what is needed immediately following the incident.

I know that if my brother had been around he would've been the first person
I would have called.  He would've known exactly what to do and say.  My
father, on the other hand, is really almost 2 generations before me (my mom
and dad were about 42 when they had me).  I am positive I could never talk
to him about this experience in any helpful manner.


Men as Spouses
--------------

I will punt on this one...

I guess a combination of Men as Friends and Men as Lovers from above ... if
spouse = friend + lover ...


Hope this helps.
                                                       nancy b.