Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    If you don't want to be a hyprocrite, tell him the truth... Heck,
    if you can't do it for your daughter.. why do it for someone you
    haven't seen in six years???... If I was your daughter, I'd sure
    pitch a fit if you went to be in a {ahem} best buddies wedding,
    and refuse to even walk her down the aisle...
    
    Just my 2 cents worth... take it or leave it...

    
    I think I'd ask him why he wants you to be his best man and take
    it from there.
    
    On a personal note - if a close friend asked me to be his best man,
    I would be very honoured. It's something I always wanted to do but
    no-one ever asked me :-(
    
    On the question of the daughter - all beliefs aside (and I'm divorced
    so I appreciate the bad side of marriage) but if anyone else walked
    my daughter down the aisle on her Wedding Day - I would quite happily
    take their head off (from the ankles upwards). I'm her Dad and if
    that's what she wants - that's what she gets and I will put away
    my cycnicism for a day (I'm also quite happy to pick up the check
    to ensure that they get the best start possible - that's what Dad's
    are for !)
    
    Steve
    

    What's the problem, here? If you've already told your daughters
    that you do not intend to be at their weddings - you're obviously
    not concerned about hurting THEIR feelings - then why are you
    going through this soul-searching about what to tell your friend,
    whom you haven't seen or heard from in 6 years? Are you concerned 
    about hurting HIS feelings?
    
    Sounds like your priorities are pretty screwed, man.
    
    BTW, how does someone who claims he is so naive, get so cynical?
    Naive people usually are positive about everything.
    
      Alan

    re: .0
    
    So whats the question ? 
    
    Some old friend comes on about getting married and wanting for is
    best man. Either you do or you don't. Besides, you didn't mention
    (or I forgot or didn't read) WHERE the nuptials are being held.
    
    Ive personally known both people AND preachers who had ceremonies
    at sunset on the top of a good size mountain.
    
    I'm not sure if YOUR sure your against the "pomp and circumstance
    of fancy costly dos" or "against spending money against your better
    judgement" or just "against wedding ceremonies of all types, kinds,
    sorts, and people who want one".
    
    Lastly, and this is the really serious part: WHen someone asks me
    to do something, my answer always depends on ONE thing. Who is this
    person who is asking me, and why would I want to please them MORE
    than I wish to please myself.
    
    Thats the question to answer in your own heart. Maybe you wouldn't
    want to please someone else; to make their day or part of their
    life a bit happier because YOU consented to put aside your personal
    feelings for a thing, and considered only the others persons wants.
    
    Bob_feeling_introspective_today_and_wanting_to_get_home_to_ ('et
    trois')

    My, aren't *we* jaded!
    
    The first thing that came to my mind, was "Why is this friend just
    appearing out of the blue sky to ask a meaningful favor like that?"
    Does he have no other friends?  I know I wouldn't ask someone I
    wasn't "close to."  You said he'd been married before, maybe he's
    "used up" all his other friends.
    I agree with a previous note saying that if you wouldn't do it for
    your own daughter, why for someone who you haven't seen for years?
    And on the subject of not taking part in your daughters' weddings,
    my comment to you is that if *you* don't want to get married, then
    by all means, DON'T.  But don't put them (or anyone else) down for
    making that choice.  
    Whether or not marriage is the right thing for you doesn't have
    much to do with going to weddings.  I feel that it is an honor to
    be invited to someone's wedding.  It makes me feel good that they
    want me to be there on their special day.  Wedding invite lists
    get trimmed, dinners must be planned, the whole thing.  It's nice
    to know that you were one of their chosen guests.
    
    Like I said, if you don't like the idea of weddings, don't get married.
    I think it's rather rude to "boycott" weddings of other people just
    because YOU happen to think it's "pagan."
    Back to the original question, just tell your friend (politely,
    if you know how) that you've had second thoughts about it, and you
    think he should probably ask someone else.  You don't have to offer
    him any explanation, especially since he'd probably be offended
    by your point of view (obviously he DOES believe in marriage.)
    
    The above opinion is the opinion of this noter only, and not
    necessarily that of this notesfile.
        
    (I call that my "appropriate disclaimer)
    
    Stacie

RE: .0

Well, the first thing that I would do, is realize that, although a wedding is
meanless to you, it is very meaningfull to him.  Do you want to take that
meaning away from him?  Why?  Would he want to you to?  Which is more important
to you? a) please your friend, b) hold your principles, c) 'enlighten' your
friend.

I think above all, I would be honest with your friend, and a) tell him your
principles; b) tell him that you are glad that he's happy, and wish him
happiness, *even* if you *don't* believe he will be happy, if he is your friend,
you should still wish him happiness; c) try and disuade him from getting married
if you must d) be the best man if you can.

Now, as to your principles...

Yes, it may all seem very silly and childish, but ... 'simple things for simple
minds'.  Don't take their enjoyment away from them.  Just as I don't tell my
childish 2 year old to shutup, when he's hopping up and down, and laughing his
head off over a tank of goldfish.  I don't tell him it's childish. It's
appropriate for him to be excited over it, because he is a child.  And I share
his excitement; I'm willing to get down with him, and laugh and point with him,
and share that with him, and be childish with him. 

Can't you do this for/with your friend?

As for your daughters, the same thing holds...  Although I do as you do, in that
'your money is where your mouth is', and I don't think I would pay for something
that I didn't believe in.

But consider...

Even *if* marriage is not 'forever', marriage can still have meaning.  It can be
a celebration of love at that time, it can be devotion for a time, and divorce
*is* an option.  Can you participate in a marriage in that light?   It's better
for you to be there, wishing them happiness, even if you don't think it will
work, even if you don't believe in "marriage" as our society has made it, as
long as you believe in your friend (and the bride).  As the best man, that is
what your role is, to support your friend.

I would not try to disillusion your friend, and convince him that marriage has
no value.  Share your thoughts, yes, if your friend ever has doubts, listen to
him, but don't strip him of his happiness, and give him nothing in return. 

A marriage ceremony is what the people involved make of it.  It is no more
pagan, or Christian then the people involved make it.  Don't *you* make it
silly, childish, immature, underdeveloped, meaningless. pagan.  Let them make
their marriage what they want it to be, and support them in that.

Jim. 

Jim.

Re: .0 -

Consider for a moment that some people really *do* believe in the institution
of marriage.  There are those who hold this commitment sacred, to whom this
tradition is very important.  They have these ceremonies to mark history, to
share their joy with friends and family, to herald their newest beginning.

Does part of you wish to join in the happiness and the hopes and dreams that
such ceremonies represent?  Is that why it seems so hard to just turn your 
back and walk away?

>> so what do i do?

Do not betray your heart and soul.  If attending such an event will truly be
an imposition on your beliefs, then decline.

>> and what about my conscience/morals/ethics/beliefs....???

Would attending such an event threaten to unravel your tightly woven belief 
system?

Life is not always so bitter.  The potential for joy is infinite, but it's 
up to each and everyone to make it last.

Do what you feel is right for *you*.

And don't feel guilty.

Carol

    Rik,
    
    It strikes me strange that your friend is not already aware of your
    veiws about marriage, unless you have had a recent alteration with
    your views on the subject.
    
    Anyway, being "best man" does not seem to be what is at issue here.
    It sounds to me as though you have a basic delemma with the art
    of giving. 
    
    What I found most disturbing with your anxiety is that you were
    able to equate marriage and suicide in the same breath. Too, I was
    not aware that others paid dollars for someone to commit suicide.
    
    Advise: Look in the mirror and ask "is there something wrong with
    this picture?"
    
    Good luck.....Pat

    
    first...i stated in .0 that i did, indeed, really and truly and
    honestly  understand that this marriage was meaningfull to him.
    i also stated that i appreciated that fact and was indeed honoured
    by it....much like when a cat brings a mouse home for his master...
    
    second, i did not put him or anyone down for wanting to get married
    or believeing in marriage. i just stated that i don't believe in
    the concept of *marriage equals love forever*
    
    please try to not through things into the issue that only muddle
    up things and get hostilty started...
    
    3'rd, to whoever stated i was trying to take the meaning away from
    him....c'mon...that's not my intent...that's why i'm having the
    dillemma...
    	my kids and i know each other very well and have been able
    to deal wit hthis issue quite well.
    
    	this guy i haven't seen in 5 or 6 years so i guess my problem
    is i don't know how to tell him *no* without hurting his feelings...
    
    for example, i openly andhonestly stated how i felt and most of
    the replies, though not actually hostile, were obviously holding
    back on hostilty because my point of view is so *obnoxiously alien*
    to most of you....
    	
    	re:4 bob 
    	good points...
    	where?
    	and what type of wedding...
    
    	i'm not against people having a wedding where they vow
    to each that they will love each other and be good for each other
    in an open and honest manner until they decide that it's time to
    seperate...
    	this i can do.
    
    	but i just can no longer tolerate going to weddings where they
    make unrealistic vows (love forever, death do us part? so help me
    god?) to a god that i don't believe in...
    
    	having posed the question to others who don't note but
    whose opinions i trust (and they said the same thing as most of
    you) i've decided to just talk to him, find out what kind of
    ceremony/vows he/they intend to have and then make the decision
    to either not be a part or be a part...
    
    	also, (watch this! i'll bet most of you can't do this!)
    	i realized that i actually can go to my daughters wedding
    as long as they do not have a traditional religious wedding complete
    with unrealistic vows!!!!
    
    	but i won't give her away...
    	she is herself.
    	she is an independant person.
    	she is not someones property.
    	she is a person and (i hope) will be responsible for her own
    life regardless of who she lives with or for how long...
    	i can't give her away...
    
    	i can watch as she vows to love someone for as long as she's
    able, though...
    	
    	thanks 
    	

    
    
    re:8 pat
    it was a bad analogy and a rotten joke....
    never was very good at jokes...
    
    and you and someone else brought up a similiar point...
    who the hell is this guy calling me up after 5 years and asking
    me to be his best man...
    	he doesn't, obviously, know me or my views anymore...
    	though 5 years ago they were headed in this direction...?
    
    	hence the title :must be some kinda joke
    
    someone said "sacred ceremony"
    please, what makes it sacred?
    
    i believe that we only consider it to be a "sacred ceremnoy" because
    we have been taught that....without the use of evidence!
    
    can someone provide evidence (please don't quote the bible or your
    mother) as to why this is so sacred?
  

    (Couldn't resist, but I'll probably regret it...)
    
    Something is sacred to a person who *believes* it to be sacred.
    While the definition of "sacred" usually implies holiness, which
    implies a belief in some deity or other, "sacred" can also mean
    simply "worthy of respect".
    
    If you don't believe a wedding ceremony is sacred, then to you it 
    isn't - but to those who are participating in faith, it is. If that means
    that "sacred" is a meaningless term to you, so be it; just try to keep
    in mind that such a ritual may be just as important to someone else as
    your principles are to you. 
    
    Re weddings:
    
    I've been to weddings where everybody involved *knew* that there wasn't
    a snowball's chance in hell of the couple making it for more than a
    year or two. It turned out that we were wrong about one of them, and
    that couple is still very happy. We were right about another one, which
    broke up bitterly in less than a year, but (to me) that didn't mean we
    should have boycotted the ceremony, or dragged the kids aside and told
    them in unison that they were out of their minds. (It *is* an
    interesting picture, but somehow I doubt that even community opinion
    would have persuaded them to wait.) 
    
    In general I'd agree about not going to a wedding if you (a) didn't
    believe in the ritual at all, (b) didn't think this particular couple
    had the right idea, (c) didn't have a close enough relationship with
    the couple to take responsibility for *helping* them to see their
    relationship through, or (d) all of the above. I've departed from these
    guidelines, usually to "make the family happy"; while the kids in
    question wouldn't have known or cared if I hadn't shown up, their
    relatives would have been hurt. But if your principles are more sacred
    to you than the feelings of your erstwhile friend, by all means, make
    your excuses and bow out. 
    
    -b

    Marriage being sacred is not what is being talked about.....But
    for the record, whether the marriage is "traditional" or of another
    variety, it should still be allowed to be defined by the participants,
    as to whether it is sacred or not. To you, what difference? For
    your daughters, should they want a traditional wedding.....que sera
    sera......
    
    regards
    pat

    Tell him "I really can't.. thank you for asking though.. I appreciate
    the honor".

	just a comment on the 'why, after all this time?' theme...

	No, not everyone has an enormous bunch of friends (or current
	and future family :-) to supply a wedding party.  And some
	of those who do have friends don't have ones who are close 
	enough geographically to come (or financially well-off enough to
	afford airfare as well as the normal expenses).  You didn't
	mention whether this person (and/or his wedding) are close
	to where you're living.  You just MAY be the only one he figured
	might be able to accept his invitation!

	Also, even if your attitudes were leaning toward your current
	ones back when he knew you, he may have thought that you'd
	have become more, um, positive in the intervening time!  :-)
	How's he to know?  After all, it's unlikely he'd have asked if
	he knew you were philosophically opposed to marriage!

		-hh

    It has only been in the last several centuries that weddings were
    performed in a church and were considered a sacrament.  Previous
    to that time, they were often done outside the church door, with
    a blessing from the priest, with about the same amount of church
    involvement as someone who currently has their new house blessed.
    
    It has only been in the past few *decades* that the large, expensive,
    church weddings have been done by most people.  Previous to that,
    it was usually a small, private ceremony done in the church with
    the presence of close friends and family.
    
    I agree with .0, that the vows are usually unrealistic.  Even amoung
    the 50% of marriages that don't end in divorce, how many of the
    remaining 50% are happy?  Forever is quite a long time.
    
    I still am having a tough time with the concept that someone you aren't
    close to at all asking for you to be his best man.  Even if he is so
    short on friends, as .15 suggests as a possibility, why is he planning
    a large, formal wedding?  If he doesn't have enough friends to fill a
    wedding party, what will he do for guests? 
    
    I ask you to consider what your daughters will think about this
    matter.  If you choose to "violate" your principle by attending
    your friend's wedding, but have promised not to attend theirs, where
    do you think they will think they are on your list of priorities?
    
    If your daughters ever do decide to get married, I still admire
    your unwillingness to give them away.  They are not your property,
    nor will they be their husband's property after the wedding.
    Unfortunately, there is a lot of that symbolism in weddings and
    marriage-related laws.
    
    FWIW, most Pagans do not have the kind of "pagan" ceremony you
    describe.                                                        
    
    Elizabeth

    re .17 That was a statement from the heart that should offend no
    one...why should it be deletel?

    re  .19
    
    >everything i write gets deleted
    
    
    Isn't that discrimination ???

    That Mr. Faulkner's note remains is an obvious refutation of his
    statement.  This is not the proper manner or place to discuss
    moderation policy.
    			Steve

    re.21
    
    then why did you discuss it ?
    

re: .0
>    		1. i've got better things to do on that day that attend
>    		some silly, meaningless, pagan ritual so don't expect
    
>    	do i just absolutely refuse to get involved in this pagan ritual?
    
Is this in fact a pagan ceremony?  If not, why are you using the term
"pagan" as a pejorative (at least that seems to me to be your intent)?
As Elizabeth pointed out, the type of "formal wedding" that it sounds
like you're talking about has very little in common with pagan rites.

If you have any bad feelings about being a best man, tell your friend
that you will be glad to attend his wedding but that you have a lot of
bad feelings about being best man and would rather that he find someone
who could be more positive about it to take on that role.  That seems
like a fair compromise...

Hey Mr. Faulker!

Stop deleting your own notes!

Jim. :-)

    
    
    	 rik, i think you've gotten nailed enuff on this one
    
    	 hey man, you know how to say no?
    
    	 sincerely,
         pisano

    I find it difficult to imagine *you* having such an agonizing
    time over speaking your mind.
    
    Someone you're not particularly close to, asks you to do something
    you do not want to do.  Why the big drama about saying "no thanks"?
    Believe me, if this guy knew your feelings, he'd never want you
    for the part.
    
    jacki
    

    
    
    re: 26
    	he called at 11:15 at night..
    i was tired...dazed..confused...
    and didn't want  to hurt his feelinsg so late at night...
    
    but i woke up a few days later...
    and decided that all those who said "say no!"
    are right!
    so...no.
    
    	the happiest days of my life will be;
    	when i sing a recording contract
    	when i play the centrum
    	when there is no more poverty
    	when there is no more hunger
    	when there is world peace
    	when all jobs are paid a fair/livable wage
    	when my car is 100% fixed
    	when my daughters present me with a brand new 5 ounce
    college diploma! one each!
    	when my daughters are financially and emotionally able
    to take care of themselves (having had that responsibility
    by myself for the past 16 years i'm REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS)
    	
    	those are just a quick and dirty list of what my happier/prouder
    days will be....
    
    	if either of my daughters ever decide to marry ( i doubt it)
    i hope.....
    they'll be better prepared for seperation/divorce
    they'll keep their own names/identity
    they won't make unrealistic vows (this is a guess)
    they'll wait (please wait!) until after they establish their own
    careers/identities and are emotionally/financially secure...
    	(is there such a thing as financial/emotional security?)
     

    
    re: 28
    actually mike, i have no idea why you wouldn't blame them?
    
    do you hate me because i have different opinions?
    do you think that, since i have outgrown so many concepts
    that you haven't, that means i can't possibly be talented?
    i don't see the connection....?
    	"hey everybody! we don't like his opinions so let's
    boycott him and throw rotten tomatoes"
    	where have you been mike?
    	have you heard of "valuing differences"?
    	have you heard of "new age thinking"?
    	have you heard of positive emotional growth?
    	
    
    and, mike, i've already been quite thoroughly disappointed 
    by my friends ? on this issue...
    
    i've played a number of times and begged people to show up...
    but i get creative excuses instead...
    
    the same people who wouldn't miss a wedding (nothing special
    about a wedding...everyone does it..and they're all equally mean-
    ingless!...takes no special skill to marry)
    have never bothered to see me play...
    
    so they buy a $25 gift and spend money on clothes to attend
    some primitive ritual loaded with meaningless drivel...
    	"till death do us part!"
    between 2 people whose only talents are probably in clothes
    selection and hairstyling...
    
    yet they don't have $2 for the cover charge to see me do
    something that i've studied and practiced for years and
    actually do quite well....?
    
    i don't understand the priority.

    but, i'm sure you do mike....

    Mayhaps if you didn't constantly offend people by insinuating that
    they are immature with your "I've outgrown this and you haven't"
    attitude you'd get more interest.
    
    There are plenty of talented musicians on the circuit who won't
    look down their self-righteous noses at the audience. Why pay 
    to see one who does?
    
    Edd

    
    Oh, no.  Not again.
    
    DFW

    rik, what instrument do you play?  With a group or solo?

    .32 - DITTO! Here we go again!!