Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Take things very *slowly*.  You said that you are both starting
    to see counselors - GREAT!  That could be the answer to this whole
    sad situation.  You wife may 'get in touch' (and that phrase is
    not as trite as it sounds) with her feelings.  She may be feeling
    frustrated, bored, etc. .  and find out, through counseling, that
    she may be taking these frustrations out on the wrong person.
    
    Please take your time with her.  Some things you do may be
    misinterpreted by her, pushng her further away.
    
    I wish you all the best.  You both have a long, difficult
    road to travel - but you also have a family and 14 years working
    in your favor.
    
    Good luck and be patient and good things will happen.

    If you do NOT want to leave, by all means, DO NOT. Once you are
    out of the house, it is a lot easier for your wife to prevent
    your coming back. Indeed, should you move out, it could be 
    construed that you have "deserted" the marital abode.
    
    Also, you should seek legal advice immediately. In Massachusetts
    (as in many other states), there no longer has to be "cause"
    (a guilty person or an innocent person) for divorce. "Irretriev-
    able Breakdown" of a marriage is sufficient grounds -- even if only
    one person in the marriage wants out.
    
    Additionally, since there no longer has to be a guilty or innocent
    party (and even in those cases where divorce is filed for "cause"),
    the financial settlement is independent of who is guilty, or who
    wants "out", for whatever reason.
    
    It is very possible, nowadays, for one person in a marriage to do
    horrendous things in a marriage (adultery, abuse, drug or alcohol-
    dependent, etc.), to obtain a divorce, and still end up with half,
    or more, of the marital assets.
    
    A person wanting a divorce no longer has to "ask" his/her partner
    for permission to obtain one. So long as one wants out of the 
    marriage, that's it.
    
    I know that right now in your life, you are reeling from the shock
    of the possible dissolution of your marriage. I'm sure you don't
    need to hear any worse news than you have already heard from your
    wife. But you should also be knowledgeable of your rights and the
    possible financial ramifications as soon as possible.
    
    For your sake, please see a lawyer.
    
      Alan
    

    Please be sure that your counsellors are LICENSED and qualified.
    There are self appointed and titled religious counsellors who hide
    under the "freedom of religion" who will add to your woes.
    
    Seek SPIRITUAL counselling as well as secular counselling. They
    are not the same; yet when you get a perspective of your life, they
    will be very instrumental to your well being.
    
    Then, follow note .2's advise and protect your interests [and sanity]
    because under stress, folks have a habit of DESTROYING each other.
    
    /cal

    Leave? WHY?  It wasn't you that changed! 
    
    Congratulations for being brave enough to put a note in here.  I
    couldn't.  The pain was too great to think logically and sort out
    things before acting.  Your children and you should now be the 
    primary source of strength.  Because with the lack of love shown
    towards you there will follow days, weeks, months of no support
    shown towards you, no consideration of your feelings, no help
    emotionally and probably a lot of physical frustration, which can
    distort reality.
    
    As Louis Busceglia has stated over and over again, affirm you feelings.
    Depend on them!  Understand that they are your strong points.  Affirm
    your love of her but realize that her love of you can quickly turn
    into hate.  I was her age when mine began, and lasted through dozens
    of disasterous attempts at relationships before we finally got
    together.  But you had some happiness of a returned love.
    
    There are very few alternatives to you and me and anyone else who
    is finding themselves in this similar situation.  I keep hearing
    divorce screamed at my ears, and have been told your crazy not to.
    But when you have loved for so long, cutting your own emotional
    ties is more painful than for her.
                 
    Qualities which you will have to exhibit in yourself stronger than
    ever:
          Patience: this could go on, and on.
          Love: if you really do love her, continue. Just don't empty
          it!
          Consistency: by knowing yourself.
          Calmness even during the worst.
          Be the best father you know how.  They will grow up to respect
          you for it!
          
    And to ignore everybody else's opinion, because only you know what
    is right for you and your kids.  Educate yourself only to be able
    to make your own decisions, not to be swayed by what others think.
    
    

    Getting counseling is the first thing to do, you've taken the
    right step there. I don't understand why separate counselors
    though. I'd think that one counselor would be better even if
    you didn't see him/her at the same time. Since you wife is seeing
    a counselor on her own it sounds like she's making an admission
    of sorts that she has something to work out. She may not know
    herself what it is. You'll need help to sort out your feelings
    too. Hopefully, once your wife can and is willing to explain
    what she really wants from you you can start working things out
    together.
    
    I'd stay with her. Your communication was not as good as you thought
    it was. Perhaps with help it can become that good. I went through
    very similar things a few years ago. With patience, love and a
    good counselor my marriage is now better then ever before. So my
    final bit of advise is to keep your spirits up and not lose hope.
    Admitting a problem exists is the first step towards fixing it.
    
    	Good luck,
    		Alfred

    I agree with .5, except that I do not believe that seeing a therapist
    is an admission of anything.  
    
    While it is great that you are both seeing individual counselors, I
    also recommend couples therapy.  True, you both may need to sort out
    what you're experiencing, but the issues are expressed in the relationship
    and working with a couples therapist helps you both to see what
    your behaviors are while you are relating.  (I will expand on this
    at greater length if you want more precise information; it's hard
    for me to encapsulate what I've learned through couples counseling.)

    I also strongly recommend you keep an open mind toward family
    counseling and counseling for your kids if they need a "safe"
    place to get their feelings up/out/whatever.
    
    I don't know where you live, but I will provide some references
    for individual and couples therapists in my area
    (Marlboro/Sudbury/Stow/Wayland MA) if you want.  Just send me mail.
    
    Good luck to you all.
    
    Michael McGovern

Re: .0

>> Should I leave? 

A separation appears in order.  It would seem from what information you have
provided that you both need space.

>> Should I see a lawyer? 

Definitely.  You need to know what your legal rights and options are in this
situation and how to protect them.

>> Should I hang in there and hope it changes? 

That's up to you.  IMHO, it won't change, except maybe to get worse.  

>> Should I stay at home and tell her to leave? 

Again, up to you.  Which of you is best prepared to leave?  Also, please
consider - if you ask her to leave instead of yourself, are you asking her
because it is best for all involved, or are you asking her out of spite?
Be sure.
    
>> Should I stay at home and just co-habitate? 

You say you are barely speaking.  Such an existance would be unbearable to
me, personally.  To me, that is not co-habitating.  I suspect that the
tension is mounting.  That is not healthy, for anyone.  Your ability to 
stay friends may be critical.

Love sometimes means letting go of what means the most to you.  She has been 
a part of you for 14 years and you're right - it's not an easy thing to let 
go.  Freedom is precious - one of the ultimate gifts.  You are both growing, 
changing.  Take a step back and look at the whole picture.  Staying together 
may not be the best thing, not even for the children.  You *must* do what is 
best for the two of you.  The panic that you feel right now may not be 
reflecting what is best for you in the long term - *you* need time away - 
to heal and to grow.

Always in motion is the future, once said wise Yoda.  Your personal name
says much.  Change is inevitable.  It depends on how you adjust to it as
to whether or not you will survive.  (And you *will*  I did.) It's your 
decision.

Keep in touch.

Carol



    

    
    	After reading the replies so far I am glad to see that the
    alternative was put over (392.7).
    
    	A situation where you are barely speaking does not seem a very
    happy situation for you, your wife or the children (who are, after
    all, very sensitive to these things).
    
    	I think I understand the hurt - my wife said and I quote -
    
    " I love you more like a brother...know what I mean ??. I just
    don't want to sleep with you ever again" 

    	That one hurt, I can still remember it word for word. My immediate
    reaction was, I already have a sister, I want a wife !.
    
    	My solution was a "temporary" seperation for three months to
    give us space because I loved my wife and didn't want to be divorced
    or with anyone else. I'd never been unfaithful and had always provided
    what I thought was a good home. I left... and never went back !!
    While I was away, I realised I didn't really love her at all (which
    was quite a shock !), I missed my daughter but not my wife and I
    found great support from family and friends (and H_R :-)).
    
    	I'm not advocating that this will happen to you but don't be
    afraid to leave for a while. Experience the other side before
    condemning it, be sure that your love is real, not habit. My daughter
    is better with us apart, my wife and I are better, my family is
    better (I found out they hated my wife - I never knew !!).
    
    	Above all else - take care and don't keep it bottled up. It
    hurts and poisons your mind - the only medicine is to talk it out.
    
    steve
    
    ps.... You're situation sounds very similar to mine - if you want
           to talk feel free to mail me. I can't solve it but I can
           listen. I'm no expert but I've been there (and back).
    

I am writing this on the fly as there are several thoughts in my mind as I 
read / work through the previous notes,  so what follows is likely to be a 
little disjointed and randomised! and is written to the author of the base 
note though has comments on others inputs - so please forgive the 
pomposity, etc, as it occurs as I try to be "all things to all ..."!

If you seek advice from a counsellor or laywer or any other person,
you will have have to work out with them what you want and why you want it.
Without this clearly focussed you are not going to make decisions the 
consequences of which you can cope / live with thereafter.

A counsellor will normally not tell you what to do - that is something that 
you have to do for yourself - how else do you own it?  They will try and 
help you spell out your options and help you to face things that stare you 
in the face,  no matter the consequences;  but you may need to be brave to 
open your eyes and look in the right directions - and it is not easy.

When a client approaches a counsellor,  part of the work is in determining 
what is wanted:  separation,  reconciliation,  education, ... in your case 
you have the problem that both of you seem to be seeing separate 
counsellors.  There will be two stories put forward - both in all honesty 
and from each stand-point.  The separate counsellors will form their own 
analysis as a result and will have to work with what they have got.  It 
might even be that they will end up working with the clients for different 
goals.  It is important then,  in such a situation, that the counsellor
invite the other partner to attend.  A good counsellor will ensure that the 
separate confidences are maintained;  though will not avoid challenging, 
confronting, as the occassion arises.  If you and your partner can agree 
then try and see the same counsellor.

A good (spiritual / church - based) counsellor will not impose their own
religious view-point or use that as an "argument" for a particular course
of action.  They will tell you what is their own view-point if asked,  or
tell you the church's teaching,  but they will / should make it clear that 
it is you that have to make that teaching your own belief before you should 
feel bound by it (and who can make that happen?).  The normal starting 
point of the counsellors work is to promote reconciliation;  one aspect to
be faced is that if only one partner wants separation and insists on it, 
the other has some hard realities to cope with;  the counsellor has a task 
in trying to resolve the resulting problems of the spouse wanting 
reconciliation and needing to come to terms and accepting reality.

So,  as you go into counselling,  explore your motives,  explore your
feelings (they are natural and therefore normal - even such things as anger
and, dare I say it, hatred - it's what you do with them that is the
problem) and look for the reasons as to why they are there.  Do remember 
that the one you know is yourself;  yes,  you know your partner's 
statements and actions and they are indicative - but knowing their mind,  I 
wonder ... (o^o).  therefore speak for yourself as to where you are, but 
take care when talking about motives and baseing any judgements, 
evaluations on them.  Take into counselling, a measure of trust and
caution; disclose what you feel comfortable with - but be prepared to take
risks - without taking some of the risks, you may never achieve what you
want. 

By all means see a lawyer to work out the legal options and implications 
both short and long term.  But do try and do everything in a low-key 
fashion - you will still have to relate to each other for a long time 
hereafter,  if only because of the children.  Try and renew / establish as
many areas of agreement as you can.  Do this by very careful listening 
(without comment / judgement / excusing) and confirm what you have 
understood by giving a good summary;  doing this will help establish an 
understanding of where your partner is, confidence in and between both of 
you, acceptance of where the other stands and will ease the necessary basic 
communication about more difficult areas that have to be approached.

You mention your youthfulness at the start of your relationship;  whilst
you have the maturity to enter into a long-term relation (an individual
matter) it is not that easy in such a short life-span for experience to
build up and develop the potential of the individual,  such as would be 
possible for individuals, say, ten years older.  You two have therefore 
gone through a lot together, with the pressures and influences of the 
marriage commitment being a factor on how each of you have developed.  But 
now,  neither of you are the same people that you were when you started off 
together; so you could have developed in different directions - is that a 
bad thing?  I would hope not,  for a lot of our sakes.  People can still be 
very different and have a successful relationship.

Your partner indicates a dissatisfaction,  no longer finds interest,  etc, 
in the relationship with you.  It would be worthwhile activity for you to 
ask yourself what attracted you to the relationship in the first place and
what attracts you to it now; to determine independently of your partner
what YOU think YOU brought to the relationship and what you think your
partner bought to it;  what your needs are for the relationship and how 
they were satisfied and what needs to be satisified.  If both of you did 
that and somehow were able to share the information,  it would help you 
clarify the goals, the prerequisites, the options and action plans you will 
want to put into effect.

In all this,  do not expect a rapid resolution - it will take a long time 
and expect to have to renew again and again and again - even within 
yourself.

    I think I'll take this opportunity to state one of the things that
    has been rolling around in my mind as I've been going through a
    divorce myself:
    
    Separation and divorce are things that need to be planned. Just like 
    changing careers needs to be planned, or moving to another country needs
    to be planned. Splitting up is a highly emotional time, but there are
    a lot of practical details to be worked out about who lives where,
    custody arrangements, financial arrangements, etc.
    
    What I'm leading up to: Your wife is doing something very unfair.
    I.e., suddenly dropping on you a statement like: 
    "The marriage is over, please move out."

    It seems to me that, if she has decided that the marriage is over,
    then the burden should be on her to plan the separation and divorce.
    She should find a place for herself to live, she should move out,
    she should find a job to support herself, she should hire a lawyer,
    she should be the one to file for divorce, etc. Don't do these
    things for her - make her do them and thus face up to the consequences
    of *her* decision. 
    
    Legally, you have just as much right to remain in the house as
    she does. Although you don't give up any property rights by moving
    out of the house (i.e., it is still half yours), you may
    be giving up custody rights, since courts often want to leave
    the children in the family home. So I think you're doing the
    right thing by digging in your heels and refusing to move.
    
       - Rich

    Why would a woman with no job background, and three young kids suddenly
    announce she wants to be on her own?  I'm sure she has no idea of
    the emotional and financial responsibility she's in for.  Whose
    idea was it that she stay home with the kids for 9 years and not
    work outside the house??  Yours or hers ??
    
    Be careful not to rule out the possibility of a 3rd party being 
    involved here.  You may want to get all the reasons out on the table
    before you decide to leave your home and children.
    
    Get as much emotional support as you can from close friends and
    family and remember, the decisions you make when you're in pain
    are the decisions you will live with for a long time.  Take it
    easy.
    

RE: .-1

Yes,  there is an agreement in place between any two people who have
decided to share their lives.  It is a question of natural justice to
negotiate the breaking down as well as the setting up of the agreement; it
should not be one-sided as seems to be the point made by the Author of the
base-note.  Due recognition of the unfairness as portrayed in the base-note
should be given, but were there not signs written on the wall some time
previous to the declaration "The marriage is over, please move out." ?  It
would seem that there was and that things were in a somewhat parlous state
for some time.  If situation is one of avoiding communication, even over
"trivia" (i.e. non-inflammatory matters) - that should have been a portent
of possibilities of breakdown. 

The consequences of statements made, positions taken, do need to be 
understood and in these circumstances need to be spelt out.  As I read it, 
though, the base-note implied a plea for help in achieving reconciliation,
for renewal,  future growth, etc.  Put yourself in the position of the
spouse getting such statements from the partner in reply saying "then if
that is what you want you should ... etc." It would seem to accept and
confirm the rejection of the marriage bond and would imply a lack of 
caring.  Both of these people are in an emotional state with each other and 
could well be saying things in a way they do not intend them to be 
delivered.  By all means, take the position of not helping / making it easy 
to break up things; why should you also declare that you will assist in the 
destruction of something you value - but take care as to how some of the 
messages are given.  Remember that sometimes the message comes across more 
clearly and is taken in in the best way possible if it comes from somewhere
that is seen to be independant (witness the young child who heeds what 
teacher says rather than what mummy has said, even though both say exactly 
the same thing!).

It is important for the well-being of all that the relationship (? custody) 
of the children be maintained.  Do you want to fight?  Why not acknowledge 
the good that is in the other as far as the children are concerned; there 
has been no statement of the other partner being a bad parent so the 
presumption has to be that they are being a good parent.  Give that 
recognition; volunteer it at the appropriate moment and don't tie it up 
into any specific contest.  If that is done then there is more likelihood 
of getting a similar recognition in return and removing that as a cause of 
conflict and need for battles over access; it helps avoid the children 
being used as a weapon against the other,  something that once started is 
very difficult to stop or to forgive. It seems to me that the Author has a 
very great concern about what happens to his children and is caring about 
them and the relationship between them.  The counselling would be to ask 
"what can you do to put that relationship with the children for each parent
on a safe ground - if it is not safe for one,  it can hardly be safe for 
the other."  

I think I am implying that when in the state of breakdown in relationship, 
the reestablishment will take place much more quickly the sooner you can
find grounds for confidence and agreement,  and that is more easily found
in SMALL things;  so look for those things that you can do to give grounds
for confidence and renewal.  You don't have to spell things out or keep on
pointing things out - they speak for themselves,  just DO them.  If that is a
problem for the other one because they suspect motives, etc,  it is not
your problem,  but THEIRS, even though it affects you, they still own the
problem, not YOU;  but be sensitive about that and care about it. 

In principle,  I think that thought has to be given to determine what are 
the areas of conflict and no-conflict.  If reconciliation is to be achieved 
then these have to be sorted out.  Work on trying to widen the areas of 
agreement as much as possible;  take the risk of first steps,  of leaving 
bridges in place,  of walking over them - yes,  it can be painful and may 
seem fruitless,  but if you don't try then ... 

So go for it,  you have something you value - your relationship with her, 
herself.  How does she assess the value you assign to her?  She may not 
think that you value her (that has a lot of questions behind it).

When I wrote .12,  .11 was not there!    

        I'm going to be predictable again.
        
        Many people have advised you. I think I'll do the other thing
        that you have asked. I'll say what I would do. It sort of
        ammounts to the same thing, but only if you assume that I knbow
        what's best for you. I don't feel that I should make that claim.
        
        You say you are very much in love with your wife, but she no
        longer desires you. In such a situation, I would do everything I
        could to win her back. Wooing one's spouse, keeping the romance,
        the fun and the partnership in a relationship is a life-long
        job.
        
        The thing is that when wooing a prospective spouse or trying
        to win back a lost relationship, you have to know what they
        want. In the case where the marriage is in deep trouble you
        can't count on it being the same thing that they wanted before.
        This means I would be extremely careful about any preconceptions
        as to what my wife wanted.
        
        I would work on several levels. I would put in extra effort
        around the house, to make her life easier. We also have three
        kids (6, 3.5, and 1.5 years), and they can be an incredible
        amount of work. I'd work on their dinners, evening toilet, and
        bed-time stories more than usual. I would work at trying to do
        more of the household chores--dishes, shopping, laundry etc. I'd
        be careful though. My wife stopped working outside of the home 4
        or 5 years ago, and I wouldn't want to look like I was trying to
        show her up, but rather make it clear I was trying to help. 
        
        I would also try to bring some of the romance back into the
        relationship. A couple of years ago I used to pass a flower shop
        on the way home, and would periodically bring my wife flowers. I
        would revive that--not orchids or lots of roses, something more
        personally. I always pick out the flowers myself. The
        arrangement may be a little less proffesional, but tyhe thought
        shows through better. 
        
        I would do something that she did once several years ago when
        we'd fought and she wanted to appologize--hand craft a card.
        Hers was an "I'm sorry" card with a little story about a snail
        named Oscar Goo or something and the pictures were cute if not
        superbly drafted. My card would be an I love you. I might use
        the six-sided snow-flakes that I've cut from tracing paper for
        so many valentines over the years.
        
        If I wasn't sleeping in the bed room, I'd probably give her
        a stuffed animal to keep my spot warm. We both like stuffed
        animals, and have given them back and for over the years. 
        
        I'd also try to bring back some of the fun. This would be hard
        if she wasn't interested, but there are some things that she
        likes enough that if I proposed them as an evening out she
        might be willing to give it a go. If that wasn't possible,
        I'd try for a few more family outings, things we all enjoy
        together--Benson's wil animal farm, the aquarium and children's
        museum, stuff like that.
        
        I'd make sure she new I loved her, make sure I said it enough,
        and that I complemented her as much as she deserves, after three
        kids and staying at home she can feel a little frumpy, but she's
        as beautiful as ever to me, and probably more so as I love her
        more than ever, and she has become my ideal woman that I compare
        others to. 
        
        I would try to find out what is bothering her, what is making
        her unhappy, what she wants but doesn't have. I would work to
        help her get the things she needs.
        
        I can't say all of the things I would do, because I'd play it by
        ear. My wife is very important to me and I've never meant to
        stop wooing her, but over the years we get lazy, and let things
        slip. I don't mean to take her for granted or appear to, but I
        don't always live up to that. I'd do more of the things that won
        her originally and that supported the marriage in the early
        years. 
        
        It's all very personal, and what is right for me may not be
        right for you. What my wife wants and needs may not be what
        yours does.
        
        My advice: love her.
        
        JimB.

    
    First of all, I would seek legal advise to ensure that you have
    stated how you feel about visitation rights, etc., JUST IN CASE
    it should come to that.  It's protection for you.
    
    Secondly,  *I* would leave.  You serve no purpose by refusing to
    leave EXCEPT possible further alienation from your spouse.
    
    Third, the grass is usually greener on the other side.  If both
    of you are seeing counsellors, your absence from the premises gives
    both of you space and time to think things out uninterrupted.  Space
    may be all she needs to get her head together before you can begin
    repairing the marriage.
    
    I'm no expert, but I've been divorced once, remarried (and this
    one had it's rough times) and many times all we needed was a little
    distance.  We'd grown so close we were smothering each other.
    
    And fourth, it's not fair to the kids.  You need to see the kids
    every day, but what do they need?  Don't they need a mom & dad who
    are happy or that barely even speak to each other?  Do they need to 
    feel it's their fault?  Many children do.
    
    I wish you the best in whatever you decide.  You asked for "What
    would you do", and this is what "I" would do.  I'm sorry if it sounds
    kind of harsh - it's unintentional.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Beckie
    

    Re: *.5 & *.6  Couples Counseling
    
    Couples Counselors usually will not counsel couples unless BOTH parties
    are willing to 'invest' in the relationship.  The premise must be that
    both parties want the relationship to work.  It sounds like this is not
    the case presented by the basenote.  At this point, it may be best for
    the two parties to seek individual counseling.  For the basenote writer,
    this would help in dealing with the emotional stress created by the very
    possible loss of his marriage.  For the other party, this would help in
    sorting out what she wants out of her life and her marriage.  Not to be
    corny or trite, she needs to get in touch with her feelings.
    
    Re: Legal counsel
    
    Definitely get an initial consultation with an attorney and discuss your
    situation.  You might also consider getting a second opinion if the first
    one doesn't sit well with you.
    
    Mark One_who_knows_couples_counseling_is_a_2_way_street.

    This reply is from the anonymous author of the base note.
    
    **********************************************************************
    
    
    Where there is life, there is hope.    
    

    First of all many thanks to all of you who have responded to my note.
    It really helps in a situation like this to know that people have gone
    through something like this and lived to tell about it. It also feels
    good to see that people really do care about fellow human beings. Many
    of you had requested that I "keep in touch". Let me give you an
    update.. We went to our separate counselors on Tuesday. I didn't care
    for mine and will be looking for a replacement. My wife found hers to
    be excellent and will continue the sessions. BTW these people are
    licensed psychologists. I have decided to leave. I had to face the
    reality that by doing this it will cause the least disruption for my
    children and my wife. Remember I still love the woman and am going to
    give her the space that she has asked for. I believe that she is a fine
    woman and an excellent mother. Together we have drafted an agreement
    which in the event that we do get divorced will be the "legal"
    agreement. I have already made an appointment to see a lawyer to ensure
    that this agreement will be binding. I am not moving out until I have
    assurances of this. The agreement we both believe is a fair one. Joint
    custody, and property settlements, as well as alimony are covered. In
    addition the agreement is written in such a way that IF we do not
    divorce at this time but do later, up until 2002, then the agreement is
    still in force unless it is superseded at some future time. Thanks
    again and keep those responses coming!! 

    

    I wish you the best of luck. It sounds like you have thought things
    through and made your decision. Making the decision is the hardest
    part. It's a good sign that you are your wife are amicable enough
    to reach an agreement.
    
    A couple of words of advice about lawyers and about the law:
    1) The agreement is *not* legally binding until each of you hires
       a lawyer and the agreement is reviewed by the lawyers.
    2) Either your lawyer or her lawyer may try to talk you out of the
       agreement (e.g., "I can get you a better deal"). Don't let them
       do that. Remember that they make more money if there is
       conflict. Remember that you hire the lawyers, they work for
       you, their job is to do what you tell him. Don't let them stir
       up conflicts.
    
    	- Rich

    re: .17
    
    For what it's worth, you have my admiration and respect.  It takes
    a lot of courage to do what you've done.  I have no doubts that
    things will work out for the best and think about you often.
    
    Carol
    

    
    also re: .17
    
    Good luck and keep being positive. Find somewhere where you will
    have people (preferably *new* people) to talk to and get support
    from. Buy things for yourself and get out and about doing new things.
    
    I hope your situation works out for you - use the time to experience
    parts of life that you thought had passed you by and make sure that
    you live your *new* temporary life to the full without any guilt
    feelings. It's hard but after a while gets easier until you reach
    the point where hopefully you will realise that you are really enjoying
    yourself. The more positive you are - the sooner it will happen.
    I have a very strong feeling that you'll be OK !
     
    Be lucky,
    
    Steve

    
    re: .17
    
    I think you're doing the right thing.  Time and space is probably
    the key right now.  The counselling will, at the very least, give
    you an outlet for all you are feeling.
    
    If you live in Massachusetts, I believe all you need to make that
    agreement binding is for two people to witness both your signatures,
    their signatures as witnesses, and certified by a notary public.
    I did the same kind of thing when I divorced my first husband and
    that's all we needed.  Check with an attorney, though.  Better to
    be safe than sorry.
    
    Best of luck to you.
    
    Beckie

RE: .17

OK,  that's where you are.  Deciding to leave to minimise pain for the
others is a generous step.  This does not mean "have given-up all hope,
it's hopeless, irretrievable situation),  even though you have both been
able to work out some agreement about how you will cope with family
business that has to continue. 

JimB's note offers encouragement, presuming that you still maintain the 
position that reconciliation is still what you want are aiming for,  and 
gives food for thought as to what might need to be done to get back in 
there.  He has hinted that you will probably have to start from rock 
bottom,  square zero;  you have the advantage that you know you love her 
and that she has shared life with you,  borne children with you who you 
love very much.  On the negative side,  she knows you and you have decided  
to withdraw from a close relationship.  It is not impossible,  just 
difficult;  you have to cause a reassessment of the current set of values 
of each other - so start with the little hills rather than the mountains 
(they are made of many small hills!) and choose some of the ones that you 
know you can succeed with - sounds trite maybe,  but it works.

Is there anything to blame oneself for in all this?  Maybe,  maybe not; if
you have become aware of something(s) with hindsight, is it fair to blame
anyone,  to kick out because of that.  If you find that either of you are
doing that,  it won't help,  and certainly doesn't seem fair.  Hindsight is
for learning lessons and avoiding things in the future;  guilty feelings
are the reward of knowingly going into something bad which could well be
avoided.  Be fair to yourselves and each other.

RE: .0

"I have decided to leave."

I'm sorry to hear that.  I feel that if the woman was serious about divorce,
*she* would move out.  Otherwise, I think she's going for all the marbles, but
doesn't want to pay the price for them.  *who* do you think is going to end up
paying? *You*, that's who, and in a *big* way, for a *long* time.

"Together we have drafted an agreement which in the event that we do get
divorced will be the "legal" agreement."

*DO NOT* move out, untill you have the temporary ***"court order"*** in your
hand saying that you have joint custody, etc...  If the woman is in a hurry, it
can be done in as little as a week.  But do not leave, do not pass go, do not
collect 200$ untill you have the Court Order.  Any other promise or agreement
have absolutely zero worth..  And by all means, get it over *quickly*; it gives
people less time to change their mind/morales, and renege on their promises. 

If you're really serious about getting a fair divorce, I hope to God, you do not
live in MA, because MA doesn't care how you want to run your life, they want to
run it for you; they know best, after all...   *Even* if you have joint custody,
you could quite likely end up forking over 30% of your gross wages in child
support; that's probably 50% of your take home pay, so sayth the MA legislature.
Remember, they know best...  If you live in MA, move out of state, or go to
Nevada before getting a divorce.

Remember, "justice", "fairness", and "equality", are foriegn terms to the
divorce court, the judge, lawyers, and occasionally spouses.

You may think I'm exagerating, but I'm not... 

*I* was promised joint custody of my children, and 'reasonable' child support
when I seperated; I even let her go live with her parents with the children
temporarily out of state after an agreement was drawn up by a lawyer, noterized,
and submitted to the court.  But I let her leave the state before getting it
made a court order, and let time pass before getting her back to MA to get the
legalities taken care of.  As a result, I am paying the 50% of take home pay as
child support, and have had to fight to have my children overnight!  

*Don't* underestimate the possibilities.  Try not to alienate your spouse, but
protect yourself, as much as you can.

Jim.

    
    re: -.1
    
    Jim,
    
    I'm sorry you didn't have a *fair* experience in MA obtaining your 
    divorce.  Please don't let what happen to you make you cynical.
    
    When I divorced my husband, I did so because HE wanted it.  I didn't.
    I paid for the divorce, asking $50/MONTH (not a week) for 18 months
    to cover his share of the household expenses while we were separated.
    Legally, he was liable for ALL the expenses because they were in
    his name, but I believed in playing fair.  When push came to shove,
    I settled for $47.25/MONTH (not even $11/WEEK) and he never even paid
    that!  
    
    First of all, why stay married to someone who didn't want me?  As
    much as it hurt, it didn't make sense to prolong it.  Probate Court
    placed a warrant on him for non-payment in June of 1981, still
    outstanding.  Another warrant was placed on him at the same time
    for assaulting a sheriff, again outstanding.  He fled the state
    then.  Should he ever return and get picked up, I'll be in court
    asking the judge to drop the non-payment issue.  Sure, I could use
    the money, but my past is burried in a box some where.  I'd like
    to leave it there.  All in all, I think the State of MA Judicial
    system treated me pretty fairly.

    Secondly,  you sound very bitter.  Maybe you have a right to be.
    But, remember that hunk of your income you pay for child support
    is just that.  If you were still married, that money would still
    be to benefit them; you just wouldn't see it in the form of cash.
    

I will decline to go into it further here... see WOMANNOTES 24.*, 471.*.

Jim.

    
     First thing , definitely consult a lawyer, and find out where you
     stand. What ever you do , dont move out, in many states once one
     is out of the house for more than 30 days it constitutes desertion.
    
     Since you still care and theres counseling going on, ride it out 
     for the time being to see where it goes. If she still wants out,
     SHOW HER THE DOOR. The very next morning, save for what you wish
     to leave her for living expensives, clear out the bank accounts,
     before she does. 
    
    Why do I sound so hard ?? I learned the hard way. Took me almost
    two years to recover from all the finical loss before I got back
    to even. 

    re: .-1
    
    And I didn't???!!!! If you missed it, read .24.
    
    I believe what we were asked for was advice, not cynicism.  Anyone
    who has been divorced feels cheated in some way.  Point is, you,
    I, nor anyone else in this note is going to help the author of the
    base note with cynicism.
    
    "If...show her the door.", and "Whatever you do...", certainly will
    not help this man.  You're biased, as are many of us, because we've 
    been there.  You apparently are still bitter.  I'm not.  
    
    There seems to be alot of hostility towards the woman.  Let me also
    point out that not all men make the perfect prize, either.  Now,
    can we get back to helping this man without bringing cynicism or
    bitterness into it?
    

    I have followed this notes entry and feel that I might have something
    to offer from my own experience. I will admit from the start that I
    have had very bad experiences with the MASS court system. It seems to
    me to be absurd (in some areas), but that is my point of view.  From
    your description of the situation and the short (relative) period of
    time you have been in this situation I will offer a few points to
    consider. I am not in any way trained for counseling, but I have
    reflected on my experience, and spent a fair amount of time discussing
    with married and nonmarried men and women.
    
    1) Recognize that this is one of the most traumatic emotional experiences
    you may have to deal with in life.
    
    2) Because of #1 you may not at all times have full control of a
    rational (objective) thought process (emotion creeps in). Especially
    when confronted with matters having to deal with legality, disposing of
    personal income, or your new relationships with your children. 
    
    3) Definitly seek professional help in the legal area (this is a
    must!!!!).  Like it or not, agree or not, you are facing significant
    financial liability. It is unfortunate that the lawyers reap tremendous
    profit from divorce settlement (talk about big business...but that
    is another topic of discussion).
    
    4) It probably will help to seek emotional support from clergy, or
    other trained professional counselors. If, as you indicated, you can't
    relate to the first  counselor, move on to find one you can relate to.
    It helps your state of mind to have long talks with friends. 
    
    5) Try to protect the children from any bitterness that may arise from
    any given situation (courts, ex, etc). This should be #1 priority. They
    are innocent, and need the support and love of both parents. The
    children already know something is amiss (I'm sure that your sleeping
    on the couch was a suprise for them). They are adjusting as well, there
    is no better time to be a role model. Recognize that when you leave the
    quantity of time spent with the children will decrease, the QUALITY
    becomes more important. This doesn't mean material quality (ie spending
    lots of money on activities, presents etc), but love, emotional
    support, and demonstrating a genuine interest in their well being. This
    is hard to do sometimes as our society does not deal well with divorced
    parenting (schools, courts, even "friends"). 

    6) Don't let the experiences you may have in the short term color your
    view (optimism) for the future. Try not to let your problems compromise
    your ability to work. It may help to let your manager know you are
    experiencing a difficult time outside work. This can be a difficult
    time at work because you can't always leave your emotions at the door
    to the building. It might help to take a vacation day(s) during the
    "rough" parts, like meeting with lawyers, court appearances. If you and
    your wife reconcile, that's great. If not then "letting go" (after
    genuine effort, and reflection) is as important as working out the
    problems between you. Life goes on. I never really fell in love until
    after I was divorced, I was "married" for ten years. No regrets, though
    (that was no persons fault). I also believe our daughter has adjusted
    well because my ex and I have taken great care for her emotional
    and material well being.    
    
    Best of luck, it is a difficult time.
    

    
    RE .27    Look for whats its worth you don't know anything about
              what happened to me, or me you during our divorces.
    
              Wither you wish to perceive me as still bitter or not
              is of little consequence here. The man asked for advice
              from those of us in this file, probably since a percentage
              of us have gone through it and know what happens.
    
              So there fore based on my experience and current knowledge
              of what can and does happen I gave him my advice as to
              what I feel he should do. In essence what I would do in
              his position. Emotions surrounding this is an entity unto
              themselves. It is totally unfair to think that these people
              should feel the same as you about this whole thing.
    
              For that matter I stated that he should ride it out to
              see what happens. To see if counseling and other measures
              help this in a more positive way. BUT if it should not,
              then I believe his best course of action is the advice
              I gave him. To that you have the right to disagree, but
              if so lets take it off line to avoid clouding this note.
    
                                       Bob B