Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Wow!  I wish I could have explained it that well!

Jim.

    I really don't feel qualified to offer you any advice, but I will
    pray for you and your situation.  I know it's not easy when you
    feel so alone.  
    
    Sometimes you can't see the whole picture clearly when you are in
    pain.  I wish there were an easy answer.
    
    Try and remember that you aren't alone.
    
    Jane

    The first thing you should do is to stop blaming yourself for what
    are your true and honest feelings. Whatever the reasons are for
    your not loving your wife, the fact is that you no longer DO love
    her. You have looked into your heart and feel (that's a key word
    here -- feel, because it is how you feel that counts) that you never
    will be able to love her again.
    
    I think you're realistic enough to know that the intensity of the
    initial attraction that one feels for another when two people first
    meet and fall in love can not be sustained at that level, that it,
    hopefully, is supplanted by "the slow and steady fire" of maturing
    love.
    
    While you may be missing that initial "rush" of emotions, I don't
    think that's the main reason for your pouring out your heart in
    your note, which, by the way, I found very touching. You *know*
    that eventually you and your wife are going to split, it's only
    a question of when.
    
    You feel it is best if children grow up having two loving parents
    around them. It is, but only if both parents love *each other*,
    in addition to loving the children. Children sense when something
    is not right in their parents' relationship; they experience the
    tensions and unhappiness, no matter how much their parents try not
    to show it.
    
    YOU deserve more out of your life. You will be a better parent if
    YOU are truly happy. I'm not saying that divorce is easy, either
    on children or their parents. However, children learn to cope and
    adjust to situations, more than we adults may give them credit for.
    
    We are given only one life on this Earth. Time steals away, second
    by second, year by year. One day you will wake up and hate yourself
    for the paths not taken, the moments that you can never recapture,
    the love you could have had and didn't pursue.
    
    Do it while there's still time. You *deserve* that much.
    
      Alan
    

    I totally agree with .3....be good to yourself, you only live once!

    Is this relationship worth salvaging ?
    
    Do you want to work at salvaging it ?
    
    A helpful book in situations where couples have grown apart without
    obvious reasons is - "UNCOUPLING ' by Diane Vaughn...
    
    
    Perhaps a counselor would be helpful to ascertain the ability or
    inability for the two of you to reconstruct the relationship should
    it be salvageable ..
    
         

    "Waiting until the children are grown"
    
    What if you said I am going to do everything I can to make this
    marriage work and hopefully by the time the children are grown I
    will have fallen in love with my wife again.
    
    I have been single for 16 years and I do not have a mate.  I have
    never had one in reality and I am not unhappy.  Happiness comes
    from ourselves.  Knowing what I know now I would suggest that you
    do everything you can to make what you have work.
    
    It is extremely uncertain out here in this world of 'single bliss'
    and I would caution anyone who joins us to be *real* sure of what
    they are leaving before they join us.
    
    Joyce

    Seem to me that your wife hasn't really changed through all this.
    What is changed is how you look at your wife and how your feel about
    her and your marriage.  And, if that is true, you can change it
    back again if you wish.  Of late I've learned that I have a lot
    more control of my own mind and the thoughts that live there than
    I would have believed in the past.  It sounds petty and old, but
    forcing yourself to think about the good aspects of your wife and
    marriage and remembering what it used to feel like might make it
    so again.
    
    And if it doesn't, what additional things have you lost by trying.
    
    Every relationship goes through ups and downs.  Sometimes success
    is just a matter of waiting for the bad to pass to get back to the
    good.
    
    Sally
    

    I look at myself as lucky. I went through a death experience and
    had a chance to start again. 
    
    Only you, the father, lover, responsible can answer whether you
    can walk away from the experience. Being say whether you can regroup
    from the experience is another.
    
    I suggest that the building blocks begin by being honest with your
    spouse and talk to her about your feelings and what you think are
    the options. If your spouse is wanting to rebuild the love affair,
    then you have taken the hardest, first step.
    
    If you are affiliated with any church, talk to your pastor about
    Marriage Encounter. My spouse and I went to one and it helped me
    put down my feelings about my marriage to Judy in the form of love
    letters. Marriage Encounter is a tool to help maintain and communicate
    with your spouse. Writing down feelings is a tool to help organization;
    in this case, your thoughts.
    
    WARNING: The conveyence of feelings will leave you feeling very
    valnerable, easy target, so to speak. You cannot always be exact
    how your spouse will react to your message; hopefully, you can work
    out some ground rules and signals where you can feel good about
    the communications, feelings at ALL LEVELS.
                           
    I will pray for you that your choice will be a good one for you.
    Remember that death may not be physical; it seems that your marriage
    is dying. With willingness to heal, the marriage maybe saved; the
    question is, should you let it die [sometimes, it is necessary to
    let go and learn from the bad experience]. I have been there nad
    I know how it feels.
    
    /cal

    Perhaps a two fold approach is in order.  I sense that you
    are not completely ready to 'leave' your marriage.  Perhaps
    those feelings are still there, but buried.  Set a time
    limit-how much of your time/life are you willing to invest
    to perhaps working this out.  Then make it a goal.  Communi-
    cate (don't talk, communicate) your feelings, thoughts, hurts,
    desires, to your wife.  Read....please please, read books on
    the subject!  See a counselor, jointly and individually.  De-
    vote yourself to making yourself the very best person possible,
    and to making your marriage a joyful union of sharing and growing.
    
    When you have reached the end of your specified time, do some
    real soul-searching.  Have you reached your goal?  Are you happy?
    Satisfied?  Do you REALLY want to be with this person?  If the
    answer is 'yes', REJOICE!  And NEVER stop growing and trying.
    
    If the answer is 'no', then move to phase two.  Ask yourself WHO
    you are, and what you want.  Gently tell your wife that you must
    leave.  Go thru the legalities and emotions of becoming unmarried.
    READ!  Read books!  Learn about YOU, and who you are, what makes
    you happy...leave this union which is not fulfilling you and make
    a new life for yourself.  You are not only liberating yourself,
    you are liberating this woman.  You owe her that.  Don't waste her
    life n the process of wasting yours.  Give her the option of finding
    someone that does love and value her, if you truely don't.  
    
    Your children will survive.  In many ways, they will benefit.  They
    deserve to have two parents offering healthy role-models, so they
    can know how to be in a healthy relationship when they become adults.
    
    
    Books I suggest:
    
    How to Survive the Loss of a Love
    I Love You, Let's Work It Out
    Crazy Time
    The Prophet
    Illusions of a Reluctant Messiah
    Why You Are Who You Are
    
    there are literally hundreds of helpful books at the library or
    bookstore.  
    
    I've made it sound very easy.  Actually, this may possibly be one
    of the most difficult times of your life.  But I can assure you
    that you will emerge a stronger, better, happier person.  You will
    discover strength within yourself that you did not even know existed!
    
    Good Luck!!!
    
     

    I can understand your feelings - I felt the same way during the
    last 2 or so years of my previous relationship.  That relationship
    wasn't bad - just not good.  It took me a long time to realize that
    leaving was the right thing to do.  Not an easy step - what I had
    was comfortable.  Now, I have someone to really *share* my life
    with, and I am very happy.
    
    Talking recently with my former SO, it has come to light that there
    really *is* a lot of caring on the part of the apparently uninterested
    partner.  He never told me he loved me until it was *very* clear
    that the relationship was ending.  I believe that it is more addiction
    than love.  Another thing is that the apparently uninterested partner
    takes it harder - they expect that things will continue the comfortable
    way they always have.  The one that cares (or cared) has a longer
    time to determine that they have fallen out of love (remember, the
    other never admitted they were in love), and deal with that.  It
    comes as a shock when they find this out.
    
    Perhaps, like several others have said, things are repairable between
    you and your wife.  Counseling for you, her, the two of you, and
    for you as a family would be of help.  It sounds like you are unsure
    of what it is that you want - stay, leave, stay until the children
    are of a certain age.  A good therapist should be able to help you
    and your wife decide what you want to do, and get something
    constructive started going the direction that you want to go, whether
    it is working on your relationship, or starting divorce proceedings.
    
    I wish you the best in whatever is best for everyone.
    
    Elizabeth

    
    I really have to agree  with .3.  In addition to that, I think it
    is very important to consider your wife and what she *deserves*.
    She deserves to be loved the way you two used to love .. we all
    deserve that.  If you really don't think it can be worked out then
    I would say get the divorce for both your sakes as well as the
    children.  
    
    Your notes was very well written and very touching.  I think it
    might be helpful to show it to your wife before you make any decisions.
    It might explain to her how you feel better than you could in person.
    Maybe you'll find she feels much the same way you do and you can
    find a way back together from that common  point.
    
    
    I wish you all the best.
    
    Donna

You're asking for advice. Well, I do not know whether this will be
good for you. This is what I would do, were I in your shoes: print
out entry .0, then give it to your wife to read. Then, take all the
time you both need to discuss it. Go over these 10+ years, again
and again, until you are all talked out. 

Then, you'll KNOW what to do next. 

I wish you the best of luck. 

-- Ron

       
    I am continually astounded at the strength people display here.
            
    Beyond that, I have no words that would make things anything but
    sadder.
    
    DFW

RE: .11

"She deserves to be loved the way you two used to love"

From .0, it seems she thinks things are just dandy; "nothing wrong here..."

That is the saddest part...

Jim.

    I'm definitely NOT advocating that someone get divorced on a whim,
    without thinking things through, nor for trivial reasons. From what 
    he has written, the author of .0 appears to have thought things 
    through very well and is very much in touch with his feelings.
    
    He is not frivolously considering divorce because of an argument
    or one specific event. He is contemplating divorce because he *knows*
    he no longer loves his wife, nor does he feel that he will ever
    again love her in a way that *HE* needs to love someone. Oftentimes
    in a relationship, it is as important for a person to feel that
    *he loves* as it is for him to feel that *he is loved*. 
    
    It is that feeling of *loving* someone that makes him feel alive;
    to be loved without loving back is not enough. Yes, he may be
    comfortable and secure in the relationship, but somehow he feels
    dead. He needs TO love, not only to BE loved. To me, it is more
    painful to feel lonely being within a relationship than to be 
    lonely because I am not in a relationship.
    
    Why do we love someone who does not love us; why do we not love
    someone who does love us? There are no logical answers. Love is not,
    in and of itself, a logical emotion. Many have tried to define it;
    but how can another define what it means to each of us, individually.
    It is a personal feeling that each of us has to experience to really
    know.
    
    When I read the base note the first time, some of the words from Gordon
    Lightfoot song, "If You Could Read My Mind" played in my head: 
    
       I Never Thought I Could Act This Way
       And I've Got To Say That I Just Don't Get It,
       I Don't Know Where We Went Wrong
       But The Feelin's Gone,
       And I Just Can't Get It Back.   
    
    To the person who authored the base note, I'm sorry for the pain
    - and guilt - you must be feeling now. You may want to delay it,
    to avoid it, to try and work it out, but I think in your heart you 
    probably already know what you're going to have to do.
    
        Alan
            

The following reply is being made anonymously.

    
    
I don't know if this will help you or not, but I too have gone through this
before.  

I loved someone so much that I thought it could never change, I MARRIED
FOR LIFE! But things did change, and I had a very hard time adapting to that 
even after I spent many years lonley, but not alone. I went to counceling 
joint and single and thought I could make this thing work, if not just for me, 
but for our daughter.  

Then through counceling I found that many children follow in there parents 
footsteps and develop the same kind of relationship their parents brought 
them up in. Case in point me, I grew up in a family were the parents 
co-existed (not in love) , but they stayed together for the kids (for 
what reason I don't know). I would of rather of had my parents split up and be 
happy than anything in the world.  I never saw my parents hug and kiss and 
show deep affection for each other, nor for even me or my siblings, they were 
to miserable to show affection. Now there older and sick, they comfort each
other through illness, and seem to be content that there life is almost over.

I stayed in my marriage for a long time during that time I desired for 
someone to hold me and CHERISH me, like I would them.   But I realised this 
was not going to happen.  I finally decided if I was to stay I would be 
subjecting myself to a life of unhappiness as well as our daughter

Like I said I went to counceling and worked very hard to keep my marriage 
together before I decided that I couldn't go on any further.  That is my
advise, try everything before you hang up the towel, you never know. But, 
when and if you realise there is nothing more, don't hang onto something that
is not there. 

Just so you know, after I got divorced people saw a drastic change in my
personality for the better, alot happier, more content! Its difficult
but its worth it if things aren't right.  My daughter is doing very well
also, although it did take her over a year for her to adapt not having the 
other parent around. 

        I, as you might expect if you've read the things I've written
        here before, disagree almost completely with what is said in
        replies 3 and 4. As a society we place far too much importance on
        selfish motivations. I hope that you won't take this badly, but
        from what you've said your current problems are at least as much
        your problem as hers.
        
        You say that you now know that she loves you. She's gotten a lot
        better at expressing her love for you. It may be that she has
        loved you all along and just expressed it badly or it may be
        that she has recently fallen in love with you or it may be that
        you've threatened her into it. There's really no way to
        determine which of these is the case (other than asking her and
        then trusting thyat what she says is the precise truth and that
        she knows the answer, but that isn't a fool-proof method, it
        doesn't *prove* anything).
        
        Given the point that the relationship has gotten to, it's not
        clear that there's anything more that she can do. The next step
        is up to you, and you say that you no longer want to. Given
        this, if you give up now, it's you that is giving up. That's why
        I can't buy the "do what's best for you" line. 
        
        This sort of thing happens to many of us. Most relationships
        that have gone on for some time have problems like this. It is
        very rare that two people will be equally adept at expressing
        their feelings or that they will do so in the same way. We all
        let our lovced ones down. Eventually our pasts are all filled
        with mistakes and hurts. It is very important not to let the
        past weigh us down. Rather, we need to take the current
        situation and deal with it. No-one can undo the past. All you
        can do is forgive and forget it. 
        
        Sure, she did things that weren't good for you or for the
        relationship. Even today she isn't 100% reliable--no human being
        is. There are no guarentees. But we can't let that poison our
        lives. 
        
        I would say that you, from what you've said, have made a couple
        of mistakes. First you let her be your purpose, your existence.
        That's a load no human being can carry. That sets unattainable
        expectations, and I feel, sets the stage for failure. (By the
        way, whatever the outcome with your wife, don't repeat this
        mistake with your children. They can no more be your whole
        purpose than she could.) 
        
        Secondly, when you began to have doubts, you in essence
        attempted to test her, to get her to prove her love for you
        (refusing to initiate the "I love you" exchanges), and what's
        more didn't, as I read your note, make the expectations (that
        she would show the initiative) explicit. There are three
        problems here. First, it isn't possible to prove love. If she
        does something to prove that she loves you all she has proved is
        that she wants you to believe that she loves you. Second, when
        you begin to doubt, you have weakened the trust that is
        essential to marriage. Finally, by not making the expectations
        explicit you set yourself up for failure. It is quite possible
        for non-demonstrative people to love without saying "I love
        you." The test was invalid. 
        
        Many of the problems may have been hers. Some were yours. (You
        say that the two of you drifted apart after you stopped saying
        "I love you." There could easily be a causal relationship there.)
        You may have sent her the message that you ceased to love her.
        Why else would you stop saying it. 
        
        So, as you expected, I will tell you to try again. The woman was
        (and it seems moderately clear to me still is) important to you
        as are the kids. Your marriage, excepting your own lack of
        motivation, is better than it has been for years--not good, just
        better. The door seems to be open. If you can rekindle the
        romance, the rewards can be great. And as others have said,
        there is a very real chance that if you were to leave her you
        would find nothing better.
        
        Without being to explicit (as after all I'm not writing this
        annonomously, and a lot of my friends read this conference), let
        me say that parts of your situation are not all that strange to
        me. In the past 17+ years, 14 of them married, not everything
        has gone well with our marriage. We have not always communicated
        well or in the same ways, and we have had doubts creep in. (I
        must point out that the fault is at the very least as much my
        own as my wife's, no doubt more so.) It has been hard at times
        and discouraging. But today we're happier than ever before. It
        works, sometimes better than ever, never perfectly. The rewards
        are easily worth it. 
        
        If what I have said here has been offensive or seemed harsh,
        please believe that I don't intend it as such. I have said that
        here or there you have erred, but that is true of each and every
        one of is. There is nothing terrible about what you have done.
        My prayers and my best wishes are with you. I feel for you and
        for your family. I honestly believe that your position is not so
        bad as it may appear, and that in the end love can conquer.
        Please take heart and know that we're rooting for you. I admire
        your willingness to discuss your problems and your insights and
        to allow others to learn from your experiences. I only hope that
        in turn I can encourage you. 
        
        JimB.

    
    	Advice is a hard thing to give (and take). 
    
    	As the author of "On breaking up" - I can at least give you
    an update and you can draw your own conclusions.
    
    	Ten months down the road.....
    
    	My divorce came thorugh last week - I'm relieved (a little sad)
    but on the whole relieved. I don't like the stigma of being
    divorced but generally, I'm a lot happier in myself and I am much
    more calm.
    
    	Work is going like a train - I have lots of energy to devote
    to it and I'm getting on better than ever before. I relate better
    to people (I think) and I have more time.
    
    	Social life - I do lots of things I never did while married.
    I go out and enjoy, drink less, laugh more and try new things.
    I recently went on holiday and lay on a beach for 2 weeks - unheard
    of for me !!
    
    	Relationships - I have a lovely relaxed relationship with someone
    that I really care for and she cares for me. We know it probably
    wont last forever and we're not expecting it to - it's great today,
    looking forward to tomorrow.
    
    	Friends - a whole new bunch (including one who will always be
    special who I know reads this file). Had some wonderful (and
    strange) experiences rediscovering myself. A great education that
    has had it's laughter and tears.
    
    	Daughter - we get on very well and have much more fun. I'm buying
    a new house and she has a room all to herself which she is going
    to help me decorate. My ex-wife tries to interfere but as yet she
    has been unsuccessful.
    
    	Parents - rediscovered I had them. They really are wonderful
    people - I didn't realise they disliked my ex-wife so much. They
    hated her for what she was doing to me that I couldn't see.
    
    	Regrets - only that I wish I'd done it years ago !!!
    
    	So that's it.... it's not meant as advice - this is my life
    not yours. It's taken a lot of effort and a great deal of help from
    many people (some of which I didn't deserve). I really feel for you
    in our situation because I know how it is. I put up with it for
    many years less and I respect your decision to stay in there. I
    gave up and I'm glad I gave up but that was for me.
    
    	Sorry the reply is so long - I hope it helps.
    
    Be lucky,
    
    Steve
    
    ps.. I don't know who you are but if you want to drop me a line
    	 feel free - I have the time.

    
    	I think parents who "stay together (unhappily) for the sake
    of the children" are really doing the family more harm than good.
    Your chosen life of misery (if it's really that bad) doesnt make
    for a good role model or growing environment. That you devote
    "everything" completely unselfishly to another person does not
    make a healthy behavior to pattern after either. I think the idea
    that "My son's gonna be just like me" holds a *lot* more water
    than people believe. It's not absolute. It's not to be ignored,
    either.
    
    	For some people in some relationships, I gotta believe that
    this absolute devotion thing is what burns it out in time. There's
    a healthy balance between devotion to your mate and devotion to
    your self. Warning signs are:
    
    	1. You have no friends independant of your SO; no one "popps
           in" for a visit, ever. No time to be a friend to another, 
    	   right?
    
    	2. You have no things_*you*_like_to_do - independantly - you
    	   dont play ball with the boys on Thursday, or go bowling,
    	   or play music, ride a motorcycle, fly an airplane, go fishing...
    	   Everything and all time is completely devoted to the
    	   relationship.
    
    	3. Life is becoming totally automatic, from the time the
    	   buzzer wakes you to the time you snap off the light. You
     	   find yourself working logistical matters so that the routine
    	   is completely defined and most efficient. "Life's a ball
    	   - TV tonite!" - FZ
    
	Someone who chooses to be this way does not make for a good
    example..."Gee, Daddy does'nt like himself much; he never does
    nothin an he always seems so unhappy. I know him and Mommy dont
    like each other much sometimes. Guess maybe you're not 'sposed to
    like anybody..."
    
    	Since love is a living thing, it can die. But it can also simply
    loose consciousness or black out. Funny, how the shock of reality
    as in "It's too late" can wake it right up! What makes love black
    out temporarily, but not die? Can it ever die on it's own, or must
    it be explicitly killed? What "good" kind of emotional jolt can
    wake it up?             Readers?
    
    	Joe Jas
    
    

    I am reading a book that may be of help to you.  It talks about
    all kinds of changes, and the courage it takes to accomplish them.
     It looks at the pro's and con's of making changes (particularly
    far-sweeping ones which you may be facing), and how to tell when
    a change is necessary, for peace of mind, best for all involved,
    etc...
    
    It is called Feel Free, it is by David Viscott, M.D., and is a Pocket
    Book from Simon and Schuster.  It's probably the best $3.95 I ever
    spent.
    
    It may not have all the answers - but it sure brings up all the
    relevant questions - and some "theoretical cases" which are interesting
    in and of themselves.
    
    Warmth and Well Wishes...
    
    -Jody
    

    RE: .17
    
    Jim, you *are* right about being predictable. When I was entering
    my replies yesterday, I thought to myself that if you replied to
    this note, I was certain what your response would be. 
    
    Obviously, I don't agree with some of the points you raised, and
    I'd like to give you my thoughts on why I'm taking issue with them.
    
    Perhaps, my first overall impression is that you are trying to analyze,
    to assess, to quantify an emotion - love - which I think does not
    readily lend itself to dissection, at least not for all people.
    
    I have the impression from reading many of your notes, in this and
    other conferences, that you are a very logical, ethical and cerebral
    person. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with someone's having
    those qualities; they are to be admired. But I also think that for
    some people, in certain areas of their lives, they have to go with
    feelings from their hearts, not just their heads.
    
    Having given my general observations, I'll now address more specific-
    ally some points with which I disagree.
    
       > As a society we place far too much importance on selfish
       > motivations.
    
    What's wrong with being selfish for onesself, for wanting some
    happiness in this life? Must we always take care of others' needs
    rather than our own? We were not put here to only feel pain and
    hurt. We *are* entitled to our share of joy. Sometimes this will
    mean that others will be hurt. This is unfortunate, but why should
    a person allow himself or herself to suffer, so that others will not?
                                         
       > First, it isn't possible to prove love.
       
       > Second, when you begin to doubt, you have weakened the trust
       > that is essential to marriage. Finally, by not making the
       > expectations explicit you set yourself up for failure.
    
       > The test was invalid.
       
    If it is not possible to prove love, then how did his not making
    his expectations explicit set himself up for failure? Since you
    are saying that love cannot be proven, and that even if she stated
    she loved him she may or may not have been telling the truth, whether his 
    expectations were explicit enough or not then are irrelevant. 
    
    In any case, it does not matter any longer if he knows his wife loves
    him or not. The most important issue here is that *he* does not love 
    *her*, nor does he feel that he ever again will. I'm sure his life
    would be much simpler if he did, or feel that he could. However,
    he's honest enough with himself to know that this is not to be.
    People do fall out of love, whatever their reasons.
    
       > Your marriage, excepting your own lack of motivation. is
       > better than it has been for years--not good, just better.
    
       > And, as others have said, there is a very real chance that
       > if you were to leave her you would find nothing better.
    
    Ah, but what if he *were* to find something much better, something
    which would make him alive again? The "devil you know is better
    than the devil you don't know" philosophy isn't always the best
    path to follow. Humankind would still be living in caves if people
    were afraid to take some risks in their lives. And "better" is one
    of those words that is very subjective. Better-than-miserable does
    not equate to being happy and fulfilled.
    
       > I honestly believe that your position is not so bad as it
       > may appear, and that in the end love can conquer.
    
    Jim, it's not important that you believe his position is not so
    bleak. It's certain that he believes it; he would not have poured
    out his heart the way he did in his note, otherwise. And as for
    love conquering, his wife's love is not enough. He, too, must love.
    
    And he doesn't.
                                            
       Alan
    

    To the author of the base note,
    
    I was in same place as your wife currently is. If you feel that
    it would be of any benefit to discuss how a woman may feel under
    such circumstances, please write. I have the time and energy. I
    do not feel comfortable discussing such things in an open forum,
    and in fact find this entry to be out of character. However, I
    believe this deserves exception.
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Ann

The following reply is from the author of the base note.

    

	I had GREAT reservation about entering the base note. After reading
the replies those reservations are put to rest. I thank you all for your 
advice and encouragement. I found myself doing one of those sad chuckles
on some of the replies, were it was more of remembrance than anything. Some-
thing like, oh ya, I remember when I tried that. A lot of you got were I'm
at now, like Alan's in .15(?). Others like:


RE: .8 Cal and others along the same line.

    I suggest that the building blocks begin by being honest with your
    spouse and talk to her about your feelings and what you think are
    the options. If your spouse is wanting to rebuild the love affair,
    then you have taken the hardest, first step.

This was done, many many times.

A few said something like

    Your notes was very well written and very touching.  >> I think it
    might be helpful to show it to your wife before you make any decisions.<<
    It might explain to her how you feel better than you could in person.
    Maybe you'll find she feels much the same way you do and you can
    find a way back together from that common  point.

That base note is what I remember of a conversation I had with her. I think
I was much more clear then.

A lot suggested that we seek counseling and stuff. I think that might have 
worked awhile back. But now I have no desire to even make this work anymore.
And this is what confuses me, makes me feel guilty, guilty about staying!

After long contemplation on this I think I have not loved my wife for years.
I tried to fall back in love with her but it did not work. But how can one
force oneself or anybody else to fall in love, lets be real. I'm just plain
tired of even trying, of the failure and hurt. Keep in mind that this has not
been a short term issue, but a long continues process. I feel I'm not the right
man for her. Although she has come a long way, she tells me she loves me, I
now have no feeling for it. Once I would have rejoiced to no end to hear her
say that. It's like I was on a ship, she on shore, the ship is leaving, I
tell her to jump aboard, no response, the ship is now to far out for her to
jump. I throw a rope and tell her I'll pull her in. No response. The ship is far
out. So far out I could not yell to her or her to me, I can't even see shore.
She jumps in the water and starts swimming! 

Now I wish a boat will come along and pick her up. Someone who she can confide
in. Someone she can trust and talk to. She deserves so mush better than what
I have offer her. 

There is nothing bad I can say about my wife. She's a good mother, a good cook,
a great person. Kindhearted and sweet. She would do anything for me. That is
why staying is the easy thing to do. I have it made at home. I don't go out
every night. Maybe once a month with the guys sometimes more often. I never
get any grief from her. We are very pleasant to each other and considerate.

Our home is not one fighting and contempt. But people sharing a world together 
and being happy. But it's all for the kids. We do both love them so much and 
enjoy watching them grow up.

You see, the kids are the ONLY things we share. If it was not for them we would
have been separated long long ago.

I just don't love her anymore. Is this a necessary criteria for people staying
married? See were I'm coming from.

Our we to much alike or just to opposite? If were going somewhere, we never talk
as we drive. When the kids go to bed thats it. Once in a blue moon we get into
a deep conversation. And once in awhile we talk. 

I see girls a work who make me smile and laugh and I think it's sad that my
wife can't do that and that I can't do that to her. That is what life is all
about. To live a good honest life and have fun doing it.

So I'm in a rock and a hard place. To stay is easy. I stay the way I am. I
could in theory go out and find a girl friend. I say theory because I just
don't lead that kind of life style were I would meet girls anyways. It's been
so long since I have I would not know what to do! And who would want to be 
involved with  a married man!?

And for getting divorced. I don't think I'm the one to be in the single bars
and such. And even though I do not love my wife, I would not want to hurt her.
I still care for her. And I would provide for her and the kids just the way I
do now. That does not leave me with much money to go out and have a social
drink. Or am I over doing it here and getting cold feet.

In a way I wish I could be just like my wife. Just to forget about it and
continue on living and plant in your mind all will be all right. I am an
optimist, but also a realist.

    To the Author of the Base note:
    
    As some others have stated, I, too, have the time if you want
    to talk to me offline, either through Mail, the phone, or,
    depending on your location, in person. Your choice.
    
    I'm located at PKO3 (Parker Street); my DTN is 223-8111.
    
    I know it's rough where you're at, but you will get through it.
    
    Believe me.
    
       Alan
    

        If I give the impression of being analytical and logical, it is
        for the most part because our language is structured that way
        and because I learned a lot about writing from being a
        philosophy major. It is much more a way of expressing myself
        (especially in writing) than it is a way that I deal with the
        world. At times I can express myself more poetically, through
        the language of the heart, but I am less skilled at that.
        
        In person, or from the inside, you will find that I am a person
        of pretty strong emotions. The intensity of those feelings
        doesn't show up in notes too often, probably because the
        expression of powerful emotion can leave you pretty vulnerable,
        and because it can be readily misunderstood. If you want to get
        a feel for it read some of my notes about the death of my unborn
        babe or of my great aunt, or of my experiences as the victim of
        violence and sexual assault, or my refusal to be made to feel
        guilty for being a white male. It comes out in those. 
        
        Enough of me. The only point of that was to say that I don't
        feel that we should or can live our lives by analysis and logic.
        We do have to live with our hearts, as well. You and I do not
        differ on that. Where we differ is on the role the heart should
        take. The heart, the metophorical heart, our emotions and our
        spirit, for me is not merely something that drags us around. It
        can be an organ through which we express ourselves. Love, as I
        have said at least once or twice before in this file, is
        something we do, as is hate or jealousy, or any emotion. 
        
        If we let them, our emotions can become mere passions, passions
        which control us, which buffet us to and fro like a gale winds.
        But that is not all that they are. Yes love is something that
        can overpower us, as can hate or fear or guilt or pride. But
        they are also powerful things that we do. We can love actively
        or decline to. We can be overwhelmed by rage or we can unloose
        it as a deadly weapon. You can choose to go with your feelings
        as you put it or you can live through them. 
        
        It isn't the head that controls the heart. Analysis provides no
        power to control our feelings. No matter how we disect our
        feelings, no matter how well we understand ourselves, we can
        still choose to assert ourselves or not. It is the will, the
        essence of us that gives us power. The head may help us to
        understand how to apply it, but it is the will that decides in
        the end whether we live our lives or just experience them.
        
        What's wrong with being selfish? Two things really. First it is
        wrong--greedy. That may sound circular, but the reason is that
        morality is not a matter of logic. There are at least three ways
        that we value the world--three kinds of "good"--right, truth,
        and beauty. It is, in the end, impossible to analyze beauty with
        reason or to fully explain conscience. I could try to explain
        why selfishness is wrong, try through the poetry of language to
        evoke in you the prehension of its wrongness, but that is very
        hard, and perhaps more a subject for the Philosophy conference. 
        
        On another level though, selfishness is wrong because it doesn't
        work. Happiness is a fickle thing. you don't get it by striving
        for it. You have to let it come to you. It's like trying to swat
        a fly by hand. If you swing directly at it you will miss because
        it will be gone before you get there. You get it only by aiming
        where the fly isn't yet. It's like every lesson taught by every
        zen master, or Tao teacher (or even Yoda).
        
        Love is a wild thing like happiness. If you try to capture it,
        try to hold onto it, it withers and dies. If we give it freely,
        if we cast it out into the world, it comes back to us bigger and
        healthier. When we focus on ourselves we become small. 
        
        By the way, you can focus on others and still be selfish. Just
        because we sacrifice for others, does not mean that we are
        thinking of them rather than ourselves. When we suffer for
        others we usually are focusing on our own suffering rather than
        on their well-being. I'm not saying that the author of the base
        note should merely stay and be miserable for the sake of his
        wife or his children. Staying and being miserable is still
        selfish.
        
        What I'm saying he should do is actively make them happy, and in
        that he will make himself happy. I'm saying he should love them.
        He should find what small happinesses he can at first and share
        them with his family, and by sharing them he will help them to
        grow, and as they share and cultivate these growing happinesses
        they can rebuild the love and the family that he once wanted,
        and which he clearly wants still.
        
        Besides being a force that can sweep us up, and a thing that we
        do, love is a living thing, and like any living thing must be
        nurtured, cultivated, and husbanded. It is also a simple thing,
        not easily killed. We often make the mistake of viewing it as
        less hardy than it is. When it looks dead and gone it is often
        possible to resucitate it. It doesn't come back immediately in
        full bloom. First it will be small and weak.
        
        If I've been vehement, and insistant upon this to the point of
        predictability, it's not because I've never been there and never
        found myself in despair. It's because I've fought my way back up
        from trouble and despair. If I insist that we can through our
        wills take charge of our lives and feelings, it's because I've
        been a victim, and I've sworn not to do it again. It's because
        I've nearly lost what I valued most by not striving. It's
        because I've been buffeted by my feelings and by the hates and
        indifferences of others. 
        
        They say the convert is always the most aggressive evangelist.
        If I advocate power its because I've been a victim. If I
        advocate love and optimism its because I will not let despair
        win ever again. If I seem caght up in the idea of loving and
        feeling actively and not passively its because I've seen the
        difference it can make. 
        
        You win not by giving up when you start to win, not by saying
        its too late or never again, but by staying in there and
        plugging, by recognizing that it doesn't all come at once and
        you have to start with small victories and build the big ones.
        
        We all hear the adages when we are young. "Cast your bread upon
        the waters." "It is better to give than to receive." "The little
        engine that could." "Try? Try? There is no trying! Do!" But
        until we live them they are but words. And when we have lived
        them they become a powerful force in our lives and then we try
        to convey them to others as words. I suppose that's futile, but
        I still have to witness to the truth as my Christian friends
        would say.
        
        You can win. Please, don't give up.
        
        JimB.

    re .26
    
    Pretty, pretty note.                 Lee

re: 389.26

Well said, Jim. 

		Nigel

.0  You are not alone in your circumstance.  
    
    It is too easy to give advice.  Advice never answers questions.
     Never heals the loneliness.  But there are ways to help yourself
    that you never will believe until you try them.  Good Luck!

    RE: .26
    
    Jim, in my travels through Notes, I've come across your discussion
    about not feeling guilty for being a white male. I would like to
    read your notes on the other topics you mentioned in the second
    paragraph.
    
    Can you recall what Conferences they are in, and possibly, their
    Note numbers?
    
    Thanks.
    
       Alan
    

RE: .24

This probably is not in the 'right' spirit, but I know that if I had had it as
you have it, I would have stayed, regardless of any of my other notes.  I know
how you feel, but at least you *can* endure it, and sometime you *will* be able
to work on it.  I wish that I had been able to turn my situation around to
what you have today. 

The thing that would help you the best at this point would be what are called
"affirmations".  An affirmation sets in your mind how you want to be, and
how you want your world to be.  It enables, and conditions yourself to be
able to take that first step, once again.

More later...

I just want to say that I agree with JimB. :-)  Love is an Act!

Love comes in the giving.
Love comes in the recieving.

Even when it is not recieved,
or given properly, as long as
it can be given, it still exists.


Feed, it, with *any* notice, it *will* survive,
With any appreciation, it will grow.

Jim.

    To the author of .0:
    
    Your note really struck a chord with me. About a year ago, I could
    have written almost the same note word for word, if I had had the
    guts to do so.
    
    I too was struggling with the very difficult decision of whether to
    get a divorce. I didn't put a note in a notes file, but I did talk
    over the issue with friends, family, a counselor, a rabbi, everyone
    who would listen.
    
    One thing that struck me about the situation is the wide variety
    of attitudes:
    
    On the one hand, there is the attitude (usually held by people of
    the older generation such as parents, and also by religious people:
    clergymen, rabbis, etc), which runs something like:
    "Do the two of you fight? Do you yell and scream at each other?
    Do you hit each other? Does she cheat on you? 'No' to all of the
    above? Then why on earth would you even consider a divorce???"
    
    Then there's the exact opposite attitude, usually expressed by
    people of my generation, or by psychologists/counselours: "Are
    you still in love with her? 'No'? Then obviously you should get a divorce."
    
    To both sets of people, the answer is clear and simple because neither
    set is capable of seeing the other side's views. But to me, and 
    apparently to you too, it is a difficult ethical and personal 
    decision. It involves weighing my interests against other peoples
    interests, weighing the importance of commitments, weighing 
    short-term versus long-term goals, evaluating my own
    willingness to take risks, etc.
    
    Eventually you have to make the decision yourself. Coming to a
    decision is actually the hardest part.
    
    I decided on a divorce and am now in the process of obtaining
    one. It's not been easy but I think I made the right decision.
    I'm not claiming that divorce is the right decision for you.
    But, I will point out that some of your fears of divorce may
    be exaggerated, and you shouldn't let fear of divorce guide
    your decision.
    
    I will mention one thing: Staying married and having affairs is
    *not* the answer. But I'll decline to elaborate on that statement
    publicly.
    
    I too would be happy to correspond or talk with you personally;
    you can look up my Digital DTN in the phone book.
    
    Good luck,
    
    	Rich

    Also to the author of .0: 

    I'd like to recommend thinking about a counselor or therapist again.

    There is the impression that if you go to a counselor, the counselor
    will convince you to do one thing or the other. It's as if you're
    broken and the counselor will fix you, and that sounds unpleasant, like
    you're going out to have someone brainwash you. 

    In the case of situations like yours, the implication some people will
    give you is, "go see a counselor, 'cause the counselor will convince
    you that staying is the right thing." It's never stated, but that's the
    implication, if you listen between the words. 

    Well, it ain't necessarily so. If you want to find one like that,
    you can.

    However, you can just as easily go find one who will help you decide
    that leaving is the right thing. As Rich said, those are the two camps;
    both the camps are out there in great numbers and both those camps have
    stated their views here quite eloquently.

    You can easily find a counselor who can understand your ambivalence and
    can act as a sounding board, someone who can help you work out your
    ambivalence.

    In my opinion, that's what a counselor is really supposed to do -- help
    you figure out what's been going on in your head and speed up the
    process of your figuring out what's right for you.

    You can interview counselors. Most of them are perfectly willing to
    have a session or so with you in which you describe what your situation
    is and where you are (in my opinion, the ones that *won't* be
    interviewed aren't worth seeing, but that's only my opinion).

    There are different styles of counseling, and you can often figure out
    who you'd like with a simple phone call. Tell them straight out what
    your situation is and what you want to sort out. You don't have to go
    into years of therapy; you don't have to lie on a couch if you don't
    want to. If it takes you only a couple weeks or months to sort things
    out, then that's that.

    Since this discussion is DEC internal, you can't print this out, but
    summarizing this whole discussion might not be a bad idea, as your
    prospective counselor can see what folks like us have been telling you.

    	Jon

        RE: .30
        
        Answered in personal mail. This isn't my topic.
        
        JimB.

    RE: .34
    
    Jim, I received your mail messages this morning. I already have
    taken advantage of your second offer. Looks very interesting.
    
    Thank you.
    
      Alan
    

    
    To Author of Base Note:
    
    I also have the time, energy and strength to listen/talk if you
    would like to contact me at 381-2734 or by mail ATPS::GREENHALGE.
    
    I do have to agree with Sally (reply .7).  You have choices.  We
    are all responsible for our own feelings, our own choices, our own
    happiness.
      
    If you read the note WHY DID HE CHEAT? then you've read a minor
    portion of my story ( second to last reply ); the whole of which
    I am willing to share with you off-line.
    
    Seek out a therapist.  A good therapist will give you the tools
    necessary to dig beneath the surface to find true feelings that
    may be masked by frustrations at trying so hard to "make" something
    happen.  A good therapist will show you how to use those tools,
    NOT tell you how to feel or what to do.
    
    Even if you do divorce, it sounds like you will still need that
    help a good therapist can offer to deal with the after affects.
    
    Call me.  I know many people in this field or related fields I can
    refer you to, or if you just wish to talk.
    
    Beckie 

I don't believe in staying married for the sake of children.

My parents stayed married for years, for us (3) kids.  I dont know why, it
did nothing for us.  I don't remember anyone ever saying it out loud, but
we all always knew they didnt really like each other.  They barely talked, 
never laughed.  They would go out with friends, neighbors, relatives, etc.
and have fun, but I don't remember the 2 of them going out or having fun
alone.  They had nothing in common;  it was obvious that they weren't in love. 

Eventually, my father had an affair and my mother found out and threw him 
out.  They both married someone they really love.  Both houses are now full of 
love, fun, laughter.  Its a world of difference.  I just feel bad they
didnt do what was right for them in the beginning.  It would have been the
right thing for us too.

Kathy

    re:.37
    
    It can also work the other way.
    
    Your second paragraph accurately described the relationship of
    my parents, too. A few years go, when my father died, I found out
    from one of my sisters that my parents almost got divorced between
    when she was born and when my brother was born. They decided to
    stick together "for the kids" (the sister in question was the
    second). Since I was the last born, if my parents had ended up
    getting divorced, I would not be here. Needless to say, I'm glad
    I am.
    
    --- jerry