Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    As you've said, can one expect a 'former lover' (or any sort of
    SO) to say *anything* good about the person in question ?  I 
    highly doubt it, for (in most cases) if he/she had anything
    good to say, they probably would still be with that person.
    
    Do you really think your applicant SO is willing to provide
    you with a list of references ?  Perhaps he/she wants to leave
    that part of the past behind as a not-so-pleasant memory; that
    there were mitigating or extenuating circumstances, and on & on.
    
    Part of the excitement of being in a relationship is finding out
    about the other person with respect to their likes/dislikes, pet
    peeves, favorite things, and all the other facets that constitute
    a life... past, present, and hopeful-future.  This would remove
    that.
    
    Finding out via references would be sort of like looking into the
    crystal ball, or being clairvoyant... and that wouldn't really be
    any fun, now would it.
    
    All in all, your speculation is intruiging, but it probably wouldn't
    be practical, or even advisable.
    
    (At this point I can only hope that in my future romantic 
     endeavors, I don't wind up eating these words... wishing that
     she had filled out an application !)
    
    8^)Bob(^8

RE: .0

    Because, at least in this culture, one does not make a commitment
    without knowing each other for at least some time.  
    
    Do you let your tenants live on "trial" basis?  Did Digital allowed you
    to "try" you for the job?
    
    In some cultures where the commitment is made before the couple had
    enough exposure to each other, checking the references to the person
    and the family is quite customary.  But then again the commitment
    in that culture truly means a life long commitment, so there
    will not be "previous references".  Come to think of it, having
    "previous references" would be a major disqualification :-)

- Vikas

    
    re. 3
    what?
   : in this culture one does not make a committment without knowing
   : each other for some time....
    
 	wrong!
    	it's the smart thing to do but many people, and i know of noters
    who fall into this pit, meet someone, spend a few days together,
    and then move in together or declare that they've finally found
    mr/ms right and proceed with wedding plans.
    
    :do you let tenants live on trial basis?
    	sure, every tenant in every rented dwelling is there on
    a trial basis....a 1 year lease, a 3 month lease, a monthly lease...
    and when the landlord becomes unhappy....out ya go!
    
    : did digital try you for the job?
    you bet!
    all companies have built in legal clauses (and most of them will
    use these if neccessary) that state that each new hire is employed
    on a temporary/trial basis until a decision is reached on that
    person's desirability.
    
    

	 Can you imagine your lover asking you for a good reference from your
    previous lover?  Was he (she) any good in the sack?  I would venture
    to say that an honest appraisal from an ex-lover would be rare.
    	Try to remember this.  I believe it is really a question of
    compatability.  Your new lover used to be a heavy drinker, abuser,
    philanderer, whatever.  Perhaps those traits were brought on vy
    the person they were with.  If you knew my ex, you'd drink alot!!;^)
    With you, your new lover may just be a totally different person.
    I know, with my new lover, I am totally different than what I was
    with the last one.
    
    Interesting proposition, but not one I think we'd really want to
    know.  There are things in my life I don't want my SO to know. 
    They're over and done with.  And vice versa, I don't want to know
    what went on in her past (lovers), as long as it doesn't affect
    us.
    
    Mean Gene

    To a certain extent, we _do_ check our lovers' references.  When
    things start to get serious, lovers will talk about their past,
    particularly about their past loves.  The way a person describes
    the person(s) who have dumped them says a lot about how they themselves
    handled the, er, affair.  For example, an ex- of mine (I tend to
    stay friends with my ex's) was telling me a little about his most
    recent love, and how she said the men before him were dirty rats.
    She never said anything good about the person; it seems she was
    deceived from day one.  When I asked just what this rat did that
    was so awful, it seems the problem with him was that they didn't
    live happily after... sounded very much like someone who simply
    tried to disentangle himself from a lover who loved him more than
    he loved her.
    
    I was worried about the story because even the rottenest person
    on earth has _something_ going for them.  I have at least one fond
    memory about even the men who have acted pretty nasty during the
    break-up; even an ex- for whom I have little but scorn and regret
    that it ever happened is still a neat person and I have a good number
    of thoughts about him that make me very happy.
    
    I told my friend to consider what _he_ would have done differently
    in the position of his lover's ex-.  Would _his_ actions have seemed
    any less heinous to her in retrospect?
    
    Well, he pooh-poohed it all.  When they stopped seeing each other
    (she showed up at a party of his intimate friends with a man with
    whom she was obviously getting involved), she had nothing nice to
    say about my friend: he also was a dirty rat, and he "hurt her"
    terribly which was why she had been so callous in the way she informed
    him that they were through.
    
    This man is an angel; I left him because he was _too_good_ for me...
    one of those super-sensitive, incredibly considerate guys, remembers
    flowers, takes you out to nice restaurants, loves with incredible
    intensity, very little was wrong with him (except an overwhelming
    lack of practicality), and I was simply not ready to marry which
    is what would have happened if we had stayed together.  
    
    His (now) ex- was a woman who could not accept that she was not
    ready for anything intense, and had to blame someone for her actions.
    She did this with the people who came before my friend, and still
    does so with those who have followed.
    
    When I get involved with someone, I listen VERY carefully to how
    someone feels about their ex's: it reflects a lot about their "MO".
    
    One does not not have to call an ex- to get a good idea of the
    character of the person; how they describe it themselves is usually
    more than enough.  The person may be an outright liar, but that
    is more easily detected in the romantic setting than in the business
    setting.
    
    Lee

    Hmmmm.  Well, if some guy I just met asked me for references from
    previous S.O.s, before we got "intimate", I'd say "Sorry, Charlie."
    
    It's obvious to me that this man would not give me the benefit of
    the doubt and does not trust me.  And if I know he doesn't trust
    me, then I don't trust him and there you have it - one each potential
    relationship with a lousy beginning and a mercifully swift ending.
    
    IMHO.
    
    Carol
    

    
    re: .8 -
    
    Let me put it to you this way - do you really think there can be
    a healthy and loving relationship when one party does not trust
    the other?
    
    Lack of trust breeds many bitter things - resentment, uncaring,
    infidelity, irresponsibility, etc.
    
    For myself, I could not continue a relationship with a man who did
    not trust me, or with I man I did not trust.  I dated a man like
    that *once*.  He accused me of going out on him and hit me.  His
    suspicions were unfounded.  Up until that time, I trusted him and
    wouldn't dream of even looking at another man.
    
    Thank you, but, no. 
    
    I've said it before in another note - trust and respect.  Without
    those attributes the person I'm with becomes, to me, *just* another
    person.  Without trust and respect, love is not enough.  (And the
    idea of references pre-empts the possibility of trust!)
    
    Without trust, how can people even be *friends*??
    
    
    Carol
    

    

    I think that having a previous SO give reference could often end
    up like you were being put on trial where you are the defendant
    and the former SO (or other references) are the prosecution.  I
    fear that it would be hard to get an unbiased opinion, since the
    topic can be so subjective.  Where as previous employers or landlords
    can be more objective about any problems that there may have been.
    Since the answers would be so subjective, I would feel that I would
    not feel comfortable about such an idea unless I had the oppurtunity
    to ask the witness about their answers.
    
    But, I really don't feel that it is necessary.  If two people spend
    the time necessary to become friends before getting involved further,
    they will know if they want the relationship to progress or not.
    
    Rich

I trust my own judgement better then anybody else, and if I am mistaken,
then I am responsible to myself.

I also try to allow people to be what they want to be, *now*, rather then
forcing them to drag around their past like a ball and chain.

Jim.

    
    re. 11
    > not force them to drag around the past like a ball and chain!
    
    great!
    love this stuff!
    i absolutely and categorically agree!
    forget the bad, learn as we grow, try to be happy and not hurt
    anyone. (except conservative republican zombies) :-)
    
    and take some chances...maybe you can take some one with bad
    values and help them grow into a better human being...
    

    I would be willing to refernce my good friends... 
    
    it has been years since I had another SO but I am still not
    sure I could be a good reference to my old boy friends...
    
    
    I think that this is a good idea that fails in the actualization...
    
    Bonnie J
    

    re .0  Oh yes. Ask me about her.

    (sigh)
    	What happened to romance, what happened to intense passionate
    emotion, what happened to earth-moving love?  How could any woman
    fall madly, intensely in love with a guy who wants references? 
    It must feel as though she has been selected from a group of woman
    who all contain the correct characteristics to serve his purpose
    but surely it can't feel as though he loves her.... so why bother
    getting involved at all?  Oh well, .... after all is said and done
    I'm really such a romantic._:-)

    >What happened to romance, what happened to intense passionate emotion,
    >what happened to earth-moving love?
    
    Between the dream and the reality lies the shadow...
    
    DFW

    Who knows what lurks within the hearts of men?   .....the shadow
    knows...

    re .15:
    
    It still exists. There are still plenty of romantics. Always have been
    lots of us, always will be. You just have to realize that there are
    people who seem to think that asking someone's ex-lovers for references
    is sensible. 
    
    Personally, I think it's laughable. It makes a great joke, a great idle
    threat for pillow talk, and a great way to absolve yourself of the
    responsibility of having to make important decisions. If you ask for
    references about someone, and they turn out to be a dud, it's not your
    fault. Presumably, you can then sue the person who gave you the bum
    reference. 
    
    	Jon

    re .16: 
    
    Well, *you* just lost *your* chance for it! ;-)
    
	Jon

    re .19, .16
    
    I am thinking perhaps what "truth" was meant by
    "Between the dream and the reality lies the shadow..."
    Is that there is no clearcut never-fail path to find romance, passion,
    earth-moving love...
    
    After reading Richard Bach's "The Bridge Across Forever", and from
    my own experience, it is there.  I firmly believe there is a soulmate
    for everyone - but the challenge is in recognizing the reality of
    love, and working with the other person to forge through the shadow
    (the shadow of the unknown, of the fears that one might get hurt,
    the shadow of past failures, of the possible unattainability of
    perfection...)  and get to the best relationship possible.
    
    Sorry if I got too dramatic...
    
    -Jody
    

    but has anyone found that with time painful memories seem to fade
    and you tend to remember the good times you had with a former SO,that
    you seem to be able view the relationship with more objectivety????
    
    someone once said to me that you almost put on a pair of rose colored
    glasses.
    
    kelly

    
    re: .19
    
    One cannot lose that which one does not believe exists.
    
    DFW

    But some day.... when you least expect it .... when you've long
    since given up looking for it .... when you don't even think you
    need it anymore .... it will hit you like a ton of bricks.
    
    And in the midst of your happiness, far in the chaos and confusion,
    there will be a little face in the back of your mind ... and a little
    voice will say........
    				"I told you so"
    						:-)_Mary

    
    Yeah, almost every committed woman I've ever met has said that to
    me at one point or another.
    
    DFW :-}

    Dave, perhaps they are right? :-)

    re .21:

    I don't think I'm objective about any of my old flames. There isn't a
    one that I feel ill will toward, but I doubt I can be objective about
    anyone with whom I was that close. If anything, I worry about them too
    much -- they're nice people. 

    Also, I am still suspect of "old flames" as a class, especially
    trusting them for information. Imagine this conversation on the phone: 


    O: "Hello, Jon? My name's Othello, and I've been going out with an old
    friend of yours, Desdemona. We've been going out together for a few
    months now and I was wanting to talk to you about her." 

    J: "Okay -- you know we were lovers at one time?" 

    O: "Yes, I do. In fact that's why I'm calling you. We're starting to
    become serious, and I was calling you sort of as a reference." 

    J: "Oh, okay." 

    O: "What's your opinion of her?" 

    J: "Well, I think she's one of the sweetest people I know. I think very
    highly of her. I don't see her often anymore, but we're still friends." 

    O: "Do you mind if I ask you about why the two of you split up?" 

    J: "Yes, I do. It -- it simply didn't work out." 

    O: "Okay, that's fair enough. I'll take anything you say with a grain
    of salt, you know." 

    J: "Uh huh. It's just that it was a long time ago, and we're both
    different people than we were. Nothing ugly happened, I just don't feel
    comfortable talking about ex-lovers over the phone." 

    O: "I understand. Your opinion is useful to me. Thank you." 

    J: "You're welcome." 

    O: "Goodbye." 

    J: "'Bye." <click> 

    I'm going to call Des up *immediately*, because I have a bad case of
    the creeps.

    J: "Hello, Des? Jon." 

    D: "Oh, Hi. How are you doing?"

    J: "Fine. Listen, I don't want to cut you off, but do you know a fellow
    named Othello?" 

    D: "Yeah, I've been seeing him for a while now. Why?"

    J: "Well, he called me up on the phone and asked a bunch of questions
    about you. Said he was calling me as a reference." 
    
    D: Laughs. "What did you say?"
    
    J: "I wasn't sure what to say. It was so strange that he'd call *me*. I
    didn't want to get you in trouble with him, but I figured that the
    truth was best." 
    
    D: Laughs again. "Uh oh. I'm in trouble now."
    
    J: "I hope not. I told him that I think highly of you and that we're
    still friends." 
    
    D: "Thanks."
    
    J: "You're welcome. I did balk at going into why we split up. It's
    really none of his business." 
    
    D: "Good for you. I told him you'd say that."
    
    J: "Good. You know, Des, I'd watch out for him if I were you. What's he
    going to think if he runs into someone who doesn't like you?" 
    
    D: "I wouldn't worry about it. He's a little funny sometimes, but he's got
    a good head on his shoulders. I'll be just fine." 
    
    J: "Yeah, but doesn't he trust his own judgement? What can *I* tell him
    about you? I know I'm a different person than I was then, and from what
    I can see, so are you. I don't think that your relationship with me has
    any bearing on your relationship with him!" 
    
    D: "Jon, it'll be okay, okay?"
    
    J: Sighs. "Okay. Just stikes me as creepy. I worry about you, you know?
    Interested in lunch sometime?" 
    
    ... <this gets boring quickly>
    
    	See?
    
    		Jon

    re.27
    i was not saying that this is something i would do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    it just seems that with me with the passing of time i tend to get
    a better view on the past.
    talking with people about their past lovers,not many say "bad" things
    about them.
    the more detatched i get, the less i tend to place blame (on either
    of us).
    
    kelly

    
    re: .26
    
    Perhaps they are.  If I lose the bet, it's certainly one I'll lose
    gladly.
    
    DFW

       
    
         Oh boy, this topic really surprised me, which it should not
    have because it was bound to come up sooner or later...
    
->Why not ?
  
    Why? If you know everything about that person before you even meet
    them it does give yu an advantage but what the heck would you talk
    about on the first date.  A relationship is a constant learning
    experience.  You can't "Learn" everything about everyone by references.
    Just because he treated someone one way doesn't mean he will treat
    you the same way.  References would be good if it didn't involve
    our emotions which change as drastically as the weather.  You can't
    predict someone falling in love or someone getting hurt but you
    can predict that if they don't know anything about each other but
    are willing to learn as they go along they have a chance to learn
    together. References would take away that!
    
    
->we check previous lovers ?
  
     Check them for what? Marital status? Can they have kids? Have they
    ever slept with somone? Do they have money? Why bother to even get
    to spend time with someone if you check references because you will
    know most of their life regardless! 
    
->We're about to committ to something that may last the rest of our life,
->or at least quite likely longer than a year.  Shouldn't references be
->checked ?
     
     No.
    
-> For lovers, perhaps we should check with
->previous lovers !
      
     I think that you would get biased opinions depending on how the
    ex felt he/she/it was treated in the end.   What they say may be
    way off base or right on the money.  You wouldn't *know* though
    unless you knew the s.o. not to be lying and trust in him/her/it.
    
    
-> So we have to weed out those kinds of badmouthing from more useful criticism.
                      
     How? What if all those awful things you heard were indeed true
    but you weeded them out as "badmouthing". People can NOT be stereotyped
    into lump categories.  People change as time goes on and things
    happen that effect the course of everyone's life....
    

->	"Sure, I want to get married, once I find the right woman."
      
    I think every person has said that to either gender at one point
    in time or another in their life.  But did they say *you* were the
    right woman?? No. That was reading tooo much into it.
    

         If you just started a brand new relationship wouldn't you enjoy
    taking the time to find out about the other person from them? Not
    from some silly reference.  It is more fun to learn about each other
    together than by a sheet of paper! :-)

    Awww!  Cop-outs!  Yes, you can get truthful answers out of old
    lovers; you just have to ask the right questions:
    
    1.  How did <x> deal with toothpaste?
    
    	Squeeze the tube from the middle or bottom?  Restore the
    	cap or leave it off?  Rinse away dribbled toothpaste or
    	leave it to harden?
    
    2.  How did <x> deal with facial tissue?
    
    	Drop it in the wastebasket?  Leave it in the ashtray?  On
    	the floor?  Near the wastebasket?
    
    3.  How did <x> deal with bathroom tissue?
    
    	Replace it promptly?  Get out a new roll but leave it on a
    	convenient horizontal surface?  Complain that none was left?
    
    4.  How did <x> feel about breakfast?
    
    	Now this is a really open question.
    
    The answers to questions like these are unlikely to change your
    mind about <x> (Unless you got something like, "<x> preferred
    straight gin for breakfast."), but should limit the number of
    *un*pleasant surprises you get.
    
    							Ann B.
    
    P.S.  But *I'd* never ask any such questions!

Some of you have misunderstood me.  My suggestion is not that we should
get references before the first date.  Yes, I too like the excitement of
getting to know the person through talking and asking them questions.

My idea about possible references is for LATER, when you're considering
something more serious (like marriage).

I'm just trying to address the problem of relationships and marriages
that time and again end in heartbreak because "I had no idea he/she
was like that".  Perhaps with references we could find out before it's
too late.

/Eric

    Re: last - 
    
    Would *you* do it?
    
    :-)
    Carol
    

    re:.32
    
    I really can't believe you're serious. Anyone who needs to
    get "references" from past lovers obviously doesn't know his
    or her S.O. well enough to be considering anything "more
    serious (like marriage)".
    
    Not to say that it hasn't happened that someone will think he
    or she knows his partner and finds out too late that said
    partner had nasty habits (like, say, physical abuse). But these
    cases are, I think, too few and far between.
    
    --- jerry

>< Note 383.34 by AKOV75::BOYAJIAN "Chaise pomme" >
>
>
>    re:.32
>    
>    I really can't believe you're serious. Anyone who needs to
>    get "references" from past lovers obviously doesn't know his
>    or her S.O. well enough to be considering anything "more
>    serious (like marriage)".
>    
>    Not to say that it hasn't happened that someone will think he
>    or she knows his partner and finds out too late that said
>    partner had nasty habits (like, say, physical abuse). But these
>    cases are, I think, too few and far between.
>    
>    --- jerry

So, you think cases of people getting divorced because they "didn't
    realize what a *** he/she was" is rare ?
    
    Think again.
    
    /Eric

Re: .32, .35 - Eric:


> I'm just trying to address the problem of relationships and marriages
> that time and again end in heartbreak 

*Some* relationships are *meant* to end in heartbreak.  How else are people 
to learn what is right or wrong for themselves?  Sad as it seems, we learn
best from our mistakes.

> "I had no idea he/she  was like that".  

Suppose you do get references and find out that she was "like that" with
past lovers.  Do you then condemn her?  Never mind that she was never that
way with you and never would be.  Never mind that she has made mistakes and
learned from them.  Will you then judge her based on this evidence from 
past lovers?

> Perhaps with references we could find out before it's too late.

Yes, you go ask for your precious references.  Then SHE will find out that 
you will trust someone else's word over hers and leave you before it's too 
late.

Carol

    re:.35
    
    OK, let's try this. References from former employers or landlords
    are generally pretty objective, because the data is quantifiable.
    Said prospective employee/renter meets his deadlines, does good
    work, pays his rent on time, doesn't play the stereo full volume
    at 3 A.M., etc. And there are so many reason why someone would
    leave a job or an apartment. Maybe he wanted to get out of operations
    and into networking. Maybe he wanted to move from Massachusetts
    to Colorado. Sometimes the person was fired or evicted, but there's
    a good chnce the parting was amicable.
    
    But human relationships are not quantifiable. How do you judge
    "he wouldn't let me have any peace" or "she never wanted to have
    sex enough"? And break-ups/divorces are usually not amicable, so
    you're likely getting an opinion very much biased against your
    prospective lover. Do you think that her ex-lover is going to say,
    "oh, she left me because I hit her all the time"? He's going to
    blame her. Maybe he did something that ticked her off so she left
    him, and he hates her, so if you ask him what she's like, he'll
    probably give you a barrel full of scathing remarks. So who do you
    trust? Do you try to get references from the ex-lovers' ex-lovers
    to decide if their opinion is trustworthy?
    
    You have to have trust and respect for your prospective lover. If
    you need to get references, you obviously don't have that trust
    and respect for her, and thus you shouldn't be considering something
    really serious. Maybe you'll make a mistake, but you can make just
    as bad a mistake by listening to someone who has a bone to pick.
    
    --- jerry

        Well of course, you'd agree with Jer-El...
        
        JimB.

	Reliable info from <x>'s?   or <x> of <x>?

	Whoa, heavy heavy error processing.
	Information filtering, and gook extraction.
	Possibly retries (telephone call backs).
	And loss of communications (The - - -ed - hung up!!).

	Is there any seed of truth?
	Of course, every legend (story) has one.


	bedo of agopia.

    My momma used to tell me that a girl would look like her mother
    when she grew up!  It's true to some degree, that good breeding
    is the best reference.  But it's what's inside that counts for 
    even more: what reference is going to tell you that this person
    is honest, loyal, and true?
    
    
    rmm