Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The problem is time.  You're investing a lot of time in a relationship.
    You're getting something from it, or you wouldn't still be in it.
    You also have some objectives which don't look like they'll ever
    be met by this relationship.
    
    It's very easy to go on with a relationship like this, thinking
    "well, I'm not *really* ready for marriage/family today, and things
    are good with us, and maybe he/she will change his/her mind about
    things" etc etc.  All the while you're investing more and more time
    in the relationship, which makes it harder to break off.  And you're
    not getting any closer to your objectives.  Pretty soon you're 38
    years old, still want to get married and have a family, and where
    are you?
    
    This is always a hard decision.  There are no guarantees that if
    you break off the relationship you will find someone who you love
    and who has similar objectives in life.  You could break this off
    and be alone for several years.  You could also break this off and
    find someone you really click with *tomorrow*.  Or you could continue
    and either never get married or your current SO could decide that
    marriage and kids was a good idea.
    
    I don't have any real answers for you.  In your shoes I would probably
    cool down the relationship and look for someone else.  2 years is
    *not* a long time in a relationship.  5 years from now, it'll be
    a much different decision.
    
    --Louise

    <sigh> A difficult situation.  I don't think I'm really going to
    give you any advice...I'm certainly not an expert on human relations
    8-)...
    
    What I think you must do is to think very seriously about how you
    feel about your current relationship and what is important to *you* to be
    happy in relationships. After a few years being with someone, it
    is so hard to walk away. Perhaps that's what's prompting the "if
    it ain't broke, don't fix it" thoughts ?  
    
    Staying in a relationship until you're disillusioned can be somewhat
    distructive to you and how you view other/future relationships.
    If something *must* end, for whatever reason, if you can end on
    good terms, I think (opinion here), you will feel much better about
    the whole experience. If you wait until you're angry and resentful,
    then you have that much more to deal with, in addition to the usual
    feelings we feel during a 'loss' situation.
    
    I don't know if anyone can tell you what the right thing is. From
    your description of the other person, I think the psychiatrist is
    right. The other person is happy with life as it is and most likely
    won't  change until the 'status quo' becomes unpleasant. It does
    sound, from your note, that marriage (or perhaps just living together
    ?) is something important to you. Think about that. Think about
    what *you* need in your life. 
    
    I don't know if this helps you in any way. I can certainly empathize
    with you, having been in situations where I wanted something that
    the other person wasn't willing to or couldn't give. It's hard. 
    
    I wish you luck in your decision !
    
    joan g.
    
    

    Sounds to me like you have pretty much everything you want in this
    relationship except for the one thing that is essential to every
    lasting relationship. ***COMMITMENT***   Only you can decide how
    long you can go on without it.
    
    I agree with the other reply's in that you seem to feel that 2 years
    is a large inventment, and your at the point where you don't want
    to through that away and START FROM SQUARE ONE. However it sounds
    like you could easily find yourself with 5 years invested, and be
    in exactly the same position.
    
    Just for comparison sake, my wife and I went together for a little
    over 5 years before we got married. We also lived together for 2
    years. However we did discuss marriage off and on, and new we
    would get hitched.
    
    If you've already heard from a professional that the other person
    is unlikely to change, then the way I see it, you have two choices.
    
    1. End the relationship and find someone that can completely fulfill
       your needs.
    
    2. Make up your mind that you can live with the situation the way
       it is (and knowing the probable future) and let it continue.
    
    It's not easy ending a relationship that your MORE OR LESS satisfied
    with, but EACH person deserves to be happy, not just one.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Steve

    If you want to continue in this relationship, then you will need
    to be the one to change; don't expect your partner to.
    
    Marge
    

    Cut your losses. Cut it off and the ache will go away sooner.
    Big ocean, many fish. Find one compatible with your long-term
    vision of married life. Start now. The two years are not wasted.
    After the hurt goes away, they'll be two years of fond memories.
    Good luck.

    Re.0
         You have talked to psychiatrist about this person, but have
    you talked to this person about this person ? Communication may
    be what is needed. Talk to each other , be frank, be honest, but
    for heaven's sake communicate with each other. 
    
                                                                 Mike

    	Sounds to me like the marriage wouldn't last anyway.  That's
    	a tough statement to make without really knowing the personalities,
    	circumstances, etc., around this relationship.  But from my
    	own personal experiences in this area (all positive) and from
    	what you have presented, I cannot see the makings of a good
    	marriage.
    
    	Marriage is not a 50-50 deal.  It is a 100-100 deal.  The 50-50
    	misconception in our society is part of the high divorce rate
    	problem.  Each partner must be willing to give 100% to the other
    	for the sake of the relationship, or it is doomed.
    
    	You should be able to tell your S.O. exactly how you FEEL about
    	the current situation.  I emphasized the word "feel" because
    	our society also misuses this word.  We say "feel" when we 
    	really mean to say "think".  ("I feel that I am being used"
    	should really be stated as "I think that I am being used".)
    	So have you really expressed your deepest FEELINGS about the
    	situation to your S.O.?  Does his (her?) unwillingness to marry
    	you make you feel lonely?  Does he (she?) hurt you by this?
    	If your S.O. really cherished you, really LOVED you, he (she?)
    	would be willing to change for the sake of the relationship
    	knowing that by not doing so he/she continues to hurt you.
    
    	I didn't see any mention of LOVE in this relationship.  Does
    	our society no longer consider love an essential element of
    	a good marriage?
    
	Joe Oppelt

There is no one "right" answer.  And the decision is yours - alone. No one can
tell you what you should do.  It is your choice.  But, I would like to share
with you my own experience. 

I recently broke up with someone whom I saw every evening for 2 1/2 years.
Communication was open and excellent, most everything was going in the same
direction, when we began to discuss marriage.  Our dialogue forced us to focus
on our individual goals as well as those we hoped to accomplish together. What
we found that we were very much apart on some basic issues. 

We could have continued the way we were going.  In fact, the person I was with
desired it and I went along with it for a while.  But it did not sit right with
me. 

My decision to walk away from her came from this feeling.  We were not traveling
the same path.  We spoke about it for some time and as one of the notes above
mentions, I saw that if change was going to come, it was to come from me. 
Since I was not willing to yield on the issue involved, I knew that I had to
change the relationship as it was at the time.  I felt I would not be true to
myself if I gave up on the issue and if I did, I would feel great in the short
run, but would be hurting in the long.  It was one of the most difficult things
I have done in my life. 

The pain is still with me. I am told that it is a pain that never goes away.
But what is the trade-off?  (Can you even speak about it in those terms?) You
must be true to yourself.  Compromise is the name of the game in relationships.
How far do you go?  It's a gray area and everyone is different.  You must
think and feel what you must do.  I venture to say that you already know what
you should do.  I knew for some time before acting on what I knew I should do. 

The jump into the unknown from something secure is frightening.  (Will I ever
find someone like him/her?, etc.)  But the fear of being alone should never be
a reason to stay in any relationship. 

I wish you well,

Larry.
    

    One previous noter said it right:  "If you want the relationship
    to change, it sounds like YOU will have to do the changing."  Evidently
    the other person in your relationship is not going to want what
    you do--CAN YOU LIVE WITH THAT?  
    
    I once "hung on" for 4 years with a person who would not make a
    committment to me.  I kept on hoping every one of those days in
    those 4 years that he would change his mind and love me as I loved
    him.  Of course, he didn't change, and neither did I.  I had almost
    broken it off 2 years into it because I saw clearly what the deal
    was;  but I found it easier and less painful to delude myself for
    another 2 years.  Result:  I wasted 4 perfectly good years on someone
    who wasn't worthy of them, and breaking it off hurt like hell. 
    True, I learned from the experience--that was over 2 years ago,
    and I'm still ouchy from it.  
    
    It is very hard on your mind and soul to go thru this.  I urge you
    to do what is right for yourself.  You know who you are and what
    you want, and it is obviously very important to you.  Do not let
    anyone, ANYONE undermine that importance.  On something that means
    that much to you, take the risk--it's worth it.  Of course you may
    not meet the person of your dreams right away, or ever (but I don't
    really believe you won't "ever" :-)) .  Don't waste love and time--they
    are two of the greatest gifts there are.
    
    Aren't YOU worth someone committing their love to?
    
    My prayers to you,
    
    Jane
    

Its true, you can't change someone, and anyway, would you really want to?
I mean, you might succeed and end up with a different person, one you might
not even like.   When my sister and brother-in-law were having problems, they 
saw a counsellor and he told my sister she couldn't change my brother-in-law's 
actions, she could only change her reaction to them.

The fact that you are thinking/worrying/concerned with this relationship 
does mean it is at least a little "broken".  I'd say you have to think really 
hard about what you have now, and what you really want, and what you really 
think will eventually happen (deep down inside, you probably know) 
and if its not what you truly want, or if its not what you can live (happily)
with, you have to leave.

Leaving a realtionship that is still fun and warm and caring is one of the 
hardest things ever, but just keep your eye on the future.  There is no
reason you should compromise yourself - go after what you want and deserve.

Good Luck,

Kathy

    Well. Most if not all of the replies to this note seem to come from
    the "commited, but not answered side of the relationsips". No offense
    meant by the generalization. Let me throw in my side of a story
    from the "uncommited" side.
    	I have been in a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship for more
    than five years now. It is a long distance thing, so we see each
    other only a few days a month. However, it is by no means a "no
    strings attached" setup. We seem to know each other's feelings and
    personalities to the tee, and we discussed getting married as far
    back as four years ago. She is ready to get married anytime, I go
    through these horrible waves of about a year's duration when I want
    to, and then don't. I tried to leave her twice by starting other
    relationships, came back twice. She left for Europe for a year,
    to try and break it off, but came back. We fight a lot, especially
    when we are together for a few days at a time. I don't even know
    what love is anymore... I used to think it was a combination of
    trust, tenderness, and shaking knees. Now it seems to be more like
    an inability to control my life. I want to get out, and I don't
    want to. I want to marry her, but am afraid to. Our families can't
    even understand each other (we are both immigrants, but from different
    places). We sure seem to fight a lot... My knees don't shake anymore
    we've known each other for too long. I used to think that all I
    needed to get out was to find someone better (pretty sleazy, eh?).
    I found someone, we hit it off well, and I didn't pursue it. Couldn't
    bring myself to be a scumbag again. Decided I needed to resolve
    this relationship first, and be honest with myself and others. Well,
    it sure ain't getting resolved. I feel as if the whole pressure
    is on me. She sort of decided for herself, and doesn't even want
    to discuss our differences (never did before, either), so I have
    to think out the consequences all by my inadequate self... It sure
    isn't fun anymore. If someone just told me what to do... I realize
    the waffling is my own darn fault, and I can' sit on two chairs
    at once, etc., etc. It's just a heavy burden, that's all. I guess
    I need advice as much as the author of this note. Hovewer, since
    it is always easier to give advice to others, I would take a close
    look at this "He is perfectly happy to go on in the current state
    forever" statement. I don't believe it's possible. If you dig deep
    enough in your partner, you may find the type of conflict I described.
    If you do, you have a good point of leverage to steer the relationship
    your way. It's tricky, but can be done. Beware, the longer you stay
    in this situation, the more this leverage turns into centrifugal
    forces in your partner.
    
    Dema

    Well, I guess others have already given you the very best
    advice.  Think of what YOU need, and plan YOUR goals and
    then do the very best thing for YOU...
    
    However.  Don't be surprised if, when you say "Hey, this
    isn't working for me; I'm outa here" (oh, please be a little
    more tactful than that!), he 'suddenly' realizes what he is
    losing and decides that commitment is indeed for him!!
    
    Most important of all-this is a truth I learned the hard way-
    please remember that there are no 'right' or 'wrong' decisions
    here, and even though it may not seem like it at the time, things
    really do work out just as they should.  Really.  Trust me.  Listen
    to yourself (that little voice way deep inside) and do what feels
    best for you-and in a while you will know that you did the right
    thing!
    
     

    I can think of little to add to the previous responses.  I agree
    that you have to understand that your partner's not going to change,
    and that the BIG question ("Do you stay together or not?") ultimately
    depends on your looking at your own feelings and deciding if you're
    getting what you want.
    
    I would add, though, that even if you do break it off, you don't
    have to think of the time you spent together as "wasted" as some
    earlier replies have suggested.  You've undoubtedly learned more
    about each other and about yourself, and maybe even had some very
    good times together.  These things are important.
    

	
	You seem to realize (and have been told :-) that you cannot
	change your friend.  Can you - and would you want to - change
	yourself and your desire for a "committed relationship"?

	I'm also a bit concerned about your desire to enhance someone
	else's life.  Obviously this person doesn't seem to feel their
	life needs enhancement.  Can you cope with this on a longterm
	basis, or will you end up feeling unneeded and (worst case?)
	worthless?

	BTW, how does your friend view any implied "commitment" in
	your relationship?  Granted, he isn't interested in marriage,
	and living together doesn't seem to work, but you also state
	that he's satisfied with the boyfriend/girlfriend type 
	relationship you've got.  Is it exclusive?  By design or by
	coincidence, and might this change?

	I guess this isn't really advice, just more things to think
	about while trying to decide.  Hope it helps - it's not an
	easy decision, especially if things really aren't *that* bad
	right now, but don't look likely to improve....
		Helen

	RE .7 (	FLAME ON: )

	The other side of "If he really loved you, he'd...." is
	"If you really loved HIM, you'd not ask/expect him to"!  
	Tying "strings" to your (or his) love is a mistake to be
	avoided.  Work instead on how to cope with the current
	behavior - and yes, this may include removing yourself from
	involvement with it.

    
    
  RE: .0
    
    	Your SO is not going to change nor can you change your SO. You
    said you "want to get married". That's cool. Your SO doesn't and
    may never. If you break it off now you could have a great friend
    for life. If you two get married cuz You want to get married then
    you may end up with lots of really hard feelings.
    
	It's your decision and only yours. Take your time, think of
    yourself and your future. 2 years Is alot to give up but a lifetime,
    which is what marriage is supposed to be, is a LOT longer.
    
    							mike    

    Re. 16
    
    I think it is quite interesting that you assume that it is the woman
    that wants to be married.  
    
    The writer asking advice could be a man and the person wanting to
    remain single could be a woman.  ;-)
    
    

The fact that your partner does not want to marry or isn't able
to live with you (and probably with nobody else), doesn't 
mean that he/she does not love you. Some people need to have their
own place to live and a certain amount of time alone to recover,
perhaps because they do invest too much of themselves in human
relations ...

I personally think that what is important in a relation is not the quantity
of time you spend together, neither the commitment, but the quality.

If the quality of the relationship is very good, and you really FEEL
happy with your partner (apart from his/her non-commitment), why wanting
a formal marriage, you are married by the strength of the links between
the two of you. Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason why he/she 
does not want to live with you is that he/she really LOVES you, and he/she wants
to give you the best of him/herself, and to be able to do that he/she needs some
free time in his/her own place to sort him/her out.

I would say before ending the relationship, try to understand !


Why do you want to marry :
	1) you need a proof for his/her love.
	2) you need security.
	3) you would like to give life to a child (or more).
	4) you need to share more with him.
an answer:
	1) they are many others ways love can be proved.
	2) buy a live insurance.
	3) with Love and a good organisation it's possible out
           of marriage.
	4) don't forget your friends to share with, why asking
           only one person to like all what you like.

Why doesn't he/she don't want to marry or live with you :

	1) he/she needs to be alone sometimes, in his/her own place.
	2) he/she is afraid the of signing for a long term relation.
	3) he/she doesn't want to build a family.
	4) he/she doesn't really love you.

an answer:

	1) If it's to come back to you with a smile on his/her
           face or a bunch of flower/bottle of champagne and an
	   invitation to the cinema/theater, why not ?
        2) We are never sure of what can happen in the future,
           why not just enjoying the present ?
	3) that is a matter of main goals, maybe he/she'll change
           his/her mind. And anyway building a family is not the
           only great thing you can do in a life.
	4) you can never be sure a married person loves the other,
           cause it is so difficult to split when beeing married,
	   that the person can live with the other only to avoid 
 	   trouble. You are much more sure a non-married person
	   who shares something with you does it because he/she
	   fells something deep for you !

	I know I am biaised, but it is just for you to think about
that side of the coin.

	Be happy, the world is full of kind, nice, funny, loving 
people, the others are there to train themselves becoming like
the first ones.

	Rita,

    Sounds like the partner that doesn't want marriage has made a very
    strong stand in favor of what's best for him/her. Would strongly
    suggest you do the same. Already you're making what I gleen are
    sizeable compromises. If one person is compromising most of the
    time, then I ask is this really a sharing, compassionate kind
    of relationship.
    
    Or another way to look at it is to thine own be true....there's
    only one person you have to face everyday of your life and that's
    you. Make the best of your life. No one else is going to do it for
    you with the same level of concern an interest.
    
    Ann

    
    Your description of your experiment in living together is what makes
    me think your probably ought to think about finding someone else.
    
    I see no reason the parting has to be hostile.  The both of you
    have made a significant emotional investment in this relationship.
    You appear to be good friends, and there is no reason for that to
    go away because you choose to hang a different label on your
    relationship.
    DFW

    re: .0
    
    Part of the methodology I use to analyze certain types of problems
    is to find "nonlogical" answers before asking the question.
    
   Since your problem is similiar to a good friends, I'll give you the
    same reply I'd give him.
    
    ".. if it ain't broke, don't fix it ..."
    
    How can it be broke if it never was, isn't, and never will be what
    YOU want it to be ? And the other person absolutely will not negotiate
    with you on this point ?
    
    You aren't happy with 'just' being a perpetual single. You
    want what being married CAN BE; willing to risk what happiness you
    have for that possibility fraught with more risks.
    
    In a strong sense, Democracy equates to being single as Communism
    equates to being married. Its only a Democracy that can willingly
    change itself into a Communist realm; just as only a 'single'
    can easily get married. Becoming single again is much more difficult
    than getting married again.
    
    Sometimes, due to restrictions, singles MUST get married in order to 
    'live with' the SO's; because some very pragmatic reasons interfere
    with them living together as singles.
    
    Some take that risk.
    
    Well, if your one of the fortunate few, bright, articulate, willing
    to take  risk, and your heart dictates that "whats right" is to
    be married, replete with all the other risks; you already know what
    you must do.
    
    I think you were just asking us for alternatives and to explore
    'other' possibilities.
    
    .bob.
    

    I think (or *feel*) how this person is feeling.  I was always the
    *very* independent type, I truly believed I'd never marry, just
    have a great unattached life, an SO or two, you know what I'm saying.
    All of a sudden, last year I met this great guy.  He was everything
    I could ever want. I'd been in love before, but all of a sudden
    it was like "ooh, *this* is why people get married!" 
    I still feel very strongly about this, and I am *dying* to get married.
    We lived together (out of necessity-my car was dead) in sheer bliss,
    and are planning to move away together with no reservations at all.
    
     We are euphorically happy-but he doesn't see marriage for "a long
    time down the road."  He says he's "never really thought about it"
    and that he "knows we will someday, but just doesn't know when."
    
    I guess this is our first real difference of opinion, and it happens
    to be "The Big One".  
    
    This is how I expressed my feelings.  I said:
    Listen, when you go into a store to buy a magazine, you don't pick
    one up and proceed to read it cover to cover and then put it back.
    You are supposed to *buy* the magazine.  It's perfectly acceptable
    to skim through the pictures and articles, even if it takes a little
    time, to make sure *this* is the magazine you want to buy, as long
    as you are seriously thinking of purchasing it.
    Don't stand there with no money and pretend to the shopkeeper that
    you are looking to buy, if you aren't.
    
    What do you think of that?
    SKW  (using Caputo account w/permission)

    Maybe this will work it did for some friends of mine. this friend
    of mine moved out here in 1977. about a month later his girl friend
    moved out here with him. she didn't beat around the bush. she told
    him i will give you until jan 1, 1979 to marry me or i am going
    back home. december 28th 1978 they were married. who knows might
    work twice. 
                                 terry

    "If you love someone let them go,
     If they don't come back,
        you never had them in the first place."
    
    						MJC

    
    Something I read:
    
    If you love something, set it free.  If it comes back to you, then
    it's yours....
    
    If it doesn't.... then track it down and kill it !!!
    
    8-)
    Dwight

    Don't deliver ultimatims (as suggested in .23). The worst danger
    in delivering an ultimatim like that is that the other person might
    give in! Then what do you have: a marriage based on an ultimatim.
    Such a marriage won't last long.

    I was in a similar situation a few years ago. She really wanted
    to get married. I wanted to just drift along in a boyfriend/girlfriend
    relationship. I gave in, we got married, we got divorced 3 years
    later.
    
    If you really want to get married, and the other person doesn't,
    dump him (or "her"; you didn't say which gender was which, but I
    assume the person who really wants to be married is the female,
    that's usually the case). In the long run, it will save you a lot
    of pain.
    
    	- Rich

I have not read through all of the responses to your note - what I have 
read seems to jive with my own opinion, that 

1.  The situation will not change unless you force it to change, and then 
you have to deal with the resentment.
2.  There is only one person you can ask to change, yourself.
3.  The person you are dealing with appears to be very happy with the way things
are, and unless you can find a way to become truely happy with the situation,
your dissatisfaction is just bound to increase.

I do disagree with one common assessment (and misconception) - that the two 
years were "wasted".  You have spent two years interacting with another 
human in ways you would not normally get to interact.  In that process you 
have learned much about yourself, your interests, desires, how willing you 
are to compromise, what you are willing to compromise on, what you like and 
don't like in another, and a whole series of other things.  No time spent
with anyone can be seen as wasted or lost.  Each relationship we have gives 
us tremendous oportunities to see things about ourselves that we might not 
otherwise have.

My opinion is, for you (if I were you), it is time to be moving on and taking 
everything you learned over the last 2 years into another relationship.  But
that is just my opinion.  But one opinion I stand by, hard and fast, is that 
no investment of time in a relationship with another is ever wasted, no matter 
how painful it may be or end - unless we chose not to learn from the lessons 
that are there for us.

Joe

    
    re: 31
    excellent!!!
    
    it's so refreshing to see a mature intelligent and thought out
    opinion in notes....
    which is not to say that there aren't others like this...
    but there are so few...
    
    so very few....