Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Good topic, Joyce...  
    
    	I think the joy of the sixties was that we looked at the rituals
    and decided some of them were not for us... but then we became
    conformist in our noncomformity ... I mean who would be caught dead
    without long hair and sandals!? :^)   
    
    	One particular ritual which I'm happy to see going by the way
    is the three-day wake/open casket... I think it was brutal to the
    family members.
    
    	I'm sure there are others people can name...
    
    Marge

	I especially like the feeding of the cake by the bride and groom.
    
        First they cut the cake, with both hands on the knife which
        is awkward to begin with.  
    
        Then the bride feeds the groom and the groom feeds the bride.
    
        And every person with a camera is around taking pictures of
        the event.  
    
        And the band leader is describing the event to everyone who
        cannot see because the people are taking pictures.
    
        And then the bride and groom kiss.
    
        Some couples smush each other with cake.  Others are considerate.
        Others are shy.  Most brides take over the actual cutting. 
        Some couples kiss right away others seem to wait until they
        have finished eating.
    
        I kind of like this ritual...it seems it could be symbolic of
        the future relationship.  
    
        I think it originally set out to demonstrate the support that
        each partner would contribute to each other.  
    

    To each her own, I guess. While a 3-day wake might be excessive,
    I have found that the modern tendency to hide all traces of death
    makes it harder to come to terms with one's loss. The rituals
    surrounding death, especially, often serve as a sort of autopilot
    to keep the bereaved occupied when they aren't in a normal state
    of mind. 
    
    As for the cake-smushing ritual at weddings, I was never fond of
    that. So many of the wedding customs seem to have become Photo
    Opportunities that must be properly staged, that it removes whatever
    joy they originally possessed. Feeding each other a bite of cake
    as a symbol of mutual dependency is a nice gesture, but it always
    seems to turn into a contest of who can stuff the most cake into
    the other's mouth - *not* an auspicious beginning.

    While specific rituals are subject to criticism, the concept of
    *having* rituals seems pretty sound to me. Even the most adventurous
    human might like having a familiar ritual to relax to, even if
    it's just the order in which she unpacks her suitcase. I think people
    enjoy making rituals; it's a way of saying, "This is a significant
    event," and can - under the right circumstances - make people feel
    closer. 

    I picked up a book recently about the development and use of rituals
    in family life; "To Dance with God," I think it was. In one section
    the author discussed Christmas rituals, explaining how even when
    the children were old enough to participate in the stocking-stuffing
    themselves they were willing to suspend disbelief the next day and
    be pleasantly surprised. I know I can still feel a sense of warmth,
    rightness, and security remembering Christmases long past.
    
    The point about rituals (this crops up under etiquette, too, because
    one facet of etiquette is being familiar with the current rituals
    of the society you're in) is that people create them, people modify
    them, and people can choose to drop them if they want to. It isn't
    morally wrong to change or abandon a ritual, but it can be seen
    as an insult or a challenge by those who still subscribe to it.

    (Gee, this is a great topic; I could go on for hours, but if I do
    the ritual called "getting to work" will have to wait...)
    
    -b

    RE .1
    While I can understand why many people consider the wake/funeral
    ritual to be "brutal" I strongly feel that it serves a very important
    purpose.  It allows people the opportunity to see death, accept
    death, to grieve in a surrounding prepared for death, while none
    of the process comes close to pleasant (for lack of better word)
    it is the beginning of the healing process.
    
    While I don't want this to turn into a sob story, I have experienced
    the death of a loved one without the recovery of a body, and as
    such no funeral, no ritual, and for many years no acceptance of
    death, and as well, the grief took a long, long time to pass.
    
    So many of todays rituals have been developed over hundred's of
    years -- our ancestor's have prepared each generation for the
    inevitable.
    
    sandie

	Being brought up Catholic gave me a severe allergy to formal
	ritual... But my brother's wedding last weekend wasn't half as
	intolerable as I had feared, even though I was "forced" to
	participate in the ceremony. Actually, one aspect of the
	reception I liked which had the "feel" of a ritual despite not
	being a tradition I had ever heard of (maybe a local
	tradition?) was the groom and several male members of the
	wedding party heading out to the Rich Stadium parking lot to
	attempt to drive golf balls into the stadium (for the record,
	my brother bounced one that appeared to make it in, while a
	brother of the bride hit a mammoth shot that must have landed
	around the 50-yard line). Dunno why no women came along
	(actually, my grandmother is an alright golfer, she probably
	could have driven one in if we'd been a little closer!).
	
	A wedding ritual I'd like to know the origin of is banging on
	glasses with silverware at the reception to get the bride and
	groom to kiss (*very* popular at weddings in my family,
	everyone loves to see the couple perform like trained
	animals).
	
	Mike

    I think that one's support (or non-support) of rituals heavily depends
    upon how that person was raised.  I, for example, was raised in
    a Jewish household, and I really enjoy "tradition."  For instance,
    the most enjoyable part of a wedding to me is dancing the hora (a
    festive, lengthy group dance), and I miss it when I attend non-Jewish
    weddings.  As far as funerals go, Jews are expected to bury their
    dead within 24 to 48 hours after death, leaving little time for
    the survivors to absorb what's happened.  However, we do hold a "shiva"
    (mourning) period for at least a week after burial, so the survivors do
    receive that needed support.
    
    I'm not saying that Jewish rituals are the ultimate rituals, it's
    all in what you believe.
    

    What about a ritual for divorce?  It's often occurred to me that there
    should be a divorce ceremony just as there is a marriage ceremony.
    Seeing as rituals give concrete form to an event, it would be very
    helpful to me, when a couple I've known and cared about, who both are
    woven into my life, part.  It would help me identify the changes,
    grieve the loss, and acknowledge the beginning of a new relationship
    with them both. 
    
    Ideas on this?????
    
    Wendy

    <-1
    
      I'm with you we need a ritual for divorce.  I made up my own,
    when I decieded to divorce.  I had a shower, I sold all the things
    I wasn't able to ship across US.  I had a divorce party, with the
    proceeds of the shower.  I buried things I had acquired during my
    marriage...I then let myself grieve for the 'relationship', the
    changes in my life that I needed to accept...It helped me through
    the hard times.
    
    
    MaggieT
    

    
    It's strange that the only times you actually get to see and talk
    with *all* family members is during a funeral or a wedding. 
    
    Seems like nobody has time until they *make* time.
    
    Also, food is a ritual within these rituals.
    
    
    Jim

A lot of interesting points were brought up in the preceding replies; let's see
if I remember all I want to say:

Having gone to several Jewish weddings which came complete w/ the hora and other
frolicking I have not seen at non-Jewish weddings, I can see it as a tradition
that reminds the Jewish people attending of what they have in common.  This is
also evidenced in holiday celebrations, like the Passover seder, which is a very
long and complex ritual, especially when you're hungry. :-)

This is good to a certain extent, and is probably one of the reasons why rituals
may have come about.  But it's also bad, in that it makes others feel like
outsiders, even though they are in reality welcome.  It's hard to come into all
these rituals cold.

I felt really weird experiencing my first Christmas when I was around 20, and
still can't believe how many Easter baskets I've missed. :-)

Regarding funerals, I attended my first open-casket "viewing" a couple of years
ago.  I had no idea what I was in for, and I don't think it added any more
reality to the death.  Perhaps if you're used to a viewing, you need a viewing.
And, of course, what the immediate family or departed one wants is what they
should get.

Regarding divorce rituals, they do tend to help confirm reality at times.  I
liked the previous suggestions.  I feel I did have a divorce ritual, which
occurred when we moved out of the house, and with our friends' help, moved each
of us to our new apartment.  The day the divorce became final really seemed like
a no-op, although I was with my new "flame" that day for support if it was
needed.

How to start a new ritual/tradition, like for divorce?  Do it yourself,
suggest it to others who might benefit from it and help them "do it", and maybe
they'll suggest it to their friends.  Suggesting it in a conference such as this
is a good way to spread the word, too!!

yep, that's long enough.  Don't want to start a new tradition of writing long
replies late on a Friday afternoon...

Jill

    (tongue in cheek)
    
    The Divorce Ceremony
    
    The couple, dressed in striped prison uniforms, enters a small chapel,
    surrounded by closest friends, family, and a clergy member.  The
    couple turns to one another and, in a mock argument, shake their
    fists.  They both glower and stomp their feet.  The presiding clergyman
    burns a calendar in a small chalice, marking the passage of time.
     
    Several attendants dressed as lawyers circle the couple waving mock
    contracts and papers served.  The couple sinks to the ground,
    crouching.  Circular screens are drawn around each and they change
    into street clothes.  The couple then slowly rises, as if to signify
    the "turning over of new leaves".  
    
    The traditional dish is cut and served - humble pie.  Everyone walks
    up and hugs the former couple, promising to be supportive and never
    to say "remember when..." about sensitive subjects.
    
    The couple removes their ring(s) and hurl them in the punch bowl.
     The unlucky ones who find them in their punch cups are supposed 
    to either get divorced themselves, or win a lottery, by the year's end.
    
    
    -Jody

    There has been some reference to a ritual for divorce.  This would
    not be a good idea for several reasons.  The most important reason
    is that divorce is something which all married persons pray will
    never happen.  Why then, would we want to acknowledge it formally?
    
    Divorce is a very painful process.  We do not need to give it some
    mystic sense through a ritual.  Some of the other rituals are very
    useful, or enjoyable.  For example, the marriage is a joyous bonding
    of two people who love each other.  The funeral is an opportunity
    for friends and relatives to say a last farewell to a lost loved
    one.  These are situations which are extremely valid and beneficial.
    
    Another reason for not having a ritual for divorce is that not all
    divorces are friendly.  In fact, I have seen very few that are.
     Therefore, the marriage is seldom over when the divorce is final,
    either because of court battles over property, or because of the
    children, or for other reasons.  There is no one point in time when
    you can say that the marriage is completely over.
    
    Ed..
    

    In a book titled _A book of Pagan rituals_, there is a ritual titled
    "handparting", which un-does another ritual, titled "handfasting",
    which is essentially the marriage ritual.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    At our wedding, my new bride and myself were called to the middle
    of the dance floor, whereupon I was instructed by the DJ to hold
    out my right hand, palm up. My wife was then instructed to hold
    out her right hand, palm up, under mine. He then proceeded to announce
    to myself and all present that I should enjoy that moment, because
    it was going to be the last time I would ever have the UPPER HAND.
    
    
    Steve

    
    	What about Birthday's?
    
    		What about ritualistic physical modifications to human's?
    
    	What about those times of the year when we all "get" to go crazy?
    
    		What about dinner at 5:30? Lunch at noon? Work 8 to 5?
    
    	
    	What about another divorce/marriage topic!
    
    		Joe Jas
    

    
    	Knocking on wood (to prevent jinxing oneself) came about from
    	a pagan practice of binding important contracts and telling
    	deep secrets in the woods.  They believed that trees contained
    	spirits or gods or something like that, and by knocking on a
    	tree it would be sealed or protected by the spirit in that tree.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    re.5 glass banging.
    This little bit of stupidity really got to me after the second time
    at my wedding. To not play along would make me a spoil sport and
    I hated every minute of it.
    -j
    

    RE rituals; a traditional ceremony. Rituals are the source of
    information on the life styles of the ancients. Each generation
    evolves that ritual to include a little of their current traditions.
    
    Being chinese, we had a tea ceremony in which the bride served a
    cup of tea to parents of the groom, the groom's relatives and the
    groom's parents peers. The good luck red packets of money or jewlery
    paid off hansomely! We got about 1200$ cash and about 800$ in jade
    and gold. This is a sample of chinese culture that the west does
    not see yet we preserve the culture intact plus adding the nuptual
    mass of the Christian church; adding our current traditions.
    
    RE wake or viewing; horrible as it may seem, I realised my first
    wife was never to be with me after I saw her in the casket. Death
    must be faced as un pleasant as it may be. Western culture say it
    is brutal, burial terminates the relationship. 
    
    Divorce needs the burial as it is a death of a relationship. The
    folks who describe a dissolution of a marriage will find that their
    parting a lot less painful; assumption that they agree to the ceremony.
    
    /ch

    The rituals are "rites of passage".  They fall into some broad
    categories: 
    
    birth:    ceremonial cutting of cord, baptism, christening, naming
    death:	funeral, wake, memorial service, ...
    manhood/womanhood:  bar mitzvah, confirmation, club initiation ...
    entering profession: graduation, commissioning, residency ...
    new relationship: weddings, divorce court, bon-voyage parties, 
    
    [At work we have "farewell" parties to say goodbye; I think we should
    have "welcome aboard" parties to greet newcomers too.]
                                                                   
    rmm