Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    So Bonnie, would you rather be a DINK ? (Double Income, No
    Kids) 
    If parenthood brings you joy, tell 'em to go to hell.

    
    I never heard of it.
    
    My wife and I used to get a lot of heat regarding not having had
    children after 10 years of marriage. Of course no one knew we had
    been unsuccessful in our attempts.
    
    On a side note, the rudest label I've heard lately is DINKS.
    It means Dual Income No Kids. 

    Bonnie, the first place I heard the term "breeder" was in a televised
    interview (don't remember the context) of a gay man in SF oh maybe 10
    years ago.  He used it as a sneering reference to heterosexuals
    in general.
    
    I haven't heard it much since then, and when I have it's always
    been in the same context.  Interesting that it seems to have gained
    wider currency.
    
    						=maggie

    
    You know, the variations in human loopiness never cease to amaze
    me.
    
    To answer the first question: I have never used nor heard of this
    term, at least, not before this note.  It sure sounds like it's
    supposed to be nasty, unless you think they were joking around.
    
    To answer the second question, no.  I encounter plenty of parents.
    I run into them a lot at work, for example.  The only parents I've
    ever run into that pressure me to have children are my own, because
    I'm an only child and they're sort of traditional and blah blah
    blah.  If someone made a career out of following me around and telling
    me I ought to get married and propagate the species, I'd tell them
    to go away.  If they were persistent, I'd yell at them.
    
    I don't have any particular hostility toward kids, unless they're
    being brats, at which point I wish they wouldn't be.  I was probably
    a brat once, too.  Besides, they are not my kids, and unless they're
    about to do damage to themselves or to property it isn't any of
    my business.
    
    I can't see how anyone could take such mundane actions like shopping
    with one's children in tow as a cue to hang a ridiculous label like
    that on anyone.  Unmitigated claptrap of the first water.  Particularly
    that one about buying houses you can't afford.  If you can't afford
    it, you'll be in pretty hot water, won't you?  Lending institutions
    are not known for their kindness and understanding.
    
    Motherhood is a state of mind.  Birthing is a biological process.
    If you decided you wanted to enter the former, by the latter or
    adoption or anything else, then that's your decision.
    
    In at least the latter two cases, these remarks speak of problems
    that are probably wholly unrelated to you or your children.
    
    DFW

    RE .0:
    
    I have heard the term 'breeder' before, but usually used to refer
    to people who have *lots* of children, and cannot support any of
    them, and are usually doing so at society's expense (welfare).
    It doesn't seem to fit in this case.
    
    The second question, of what (married) people with children do to
    make those of us who are non-parents (non-married, perhaps) to feel
    like we are being pushed into having families are such things as
    running into a friend/acquaintance that you haven't seen for awhile
    and asking her (this seems to happen mostly to women, but may happen
    to men too) if she has any children yet.  Another thing is that
    friends who know you are married or have a long-term SO will ask
    you "When are you having children?"  or "What are you waiting for?
    They're so (cute/lovable/loving/sweet/fun)."  Another thing is that
    a friend who is an excited new mother will hand you their baby,
    and after holding it for a few minutes, while she is busy with
    something else, will tell you that you want one.  If I say no, I'm
    immediately treated as if I just said I was from Mars.  Parents,
    especially new parents, don't seem to understand that *everyone*
    does not wish to experience or share their excitement.
    
    FWIW, *most* people are not this obnoxious.  But some that are seem
    to really want to convince everyone that being married and having
    children is the only valid way that one can live.
    
    To answer the third question, I am not usually hostile to children
    in the supermarket, unless they are being extremely loud and obnoxious.
    
    Elizabeth
    

    I like some kds, don't like other kids.  I don't express hostility
    to children under 13-14, at which point they become juvenile
    delinquents (SMILEY FACE!!!).
    
    As for married people's behavior, yes it gets on my nerves when
    people act like every man I meet is a potential husband, and make
    a big deal if I have dates ("maybe this one will put her on the
    road to wedded bliss and take her away from her lonely life"). 
    I run into this attitude a lot ( at work, away from work ), and
    it drives me crazy.
    
    <flame on>
    
    YES, I'd like to meet the perfect person, YES living alone can get
    lonely, YES I like to have dates.  NO I don't want to get married,
    NO I don't want to live with anyone but my cat right now, NO one
    date/fling does not mean I'm going to change a whole heck of a lot.
    YES I like my life, YES I like my house, YES I like my solitude.
    
    <flame off>
    
    The attitude that says, my life is happy, I wish everyone could
    be so happy, get married, have kids, buy a house, ad nauseum, is
    very intrusive.  I'm not saying that _you_ do it, but if I grow
    to be an old woman with no husband/wife/kids, that doesn't mean
    I won't be very content looking back on my life, and telling married
    people that can often be lie telling a born-again christian that
    the Goddess is in everyone.
    
    Lee

    My husband likes to say that he married me because I look like a
    good breeder (i.e. wide in the hips) :^)  :^)
    
    In someone else's mouth, I'd find it derogatory.

    interesting sideroad:
    
    when in college, I was told of women who dated and/or slept out
    in order to gain their "MRS" degree.  Some few of them apparently
    did so without protection so the man would "have to" marry them.
     Hence, breeding does not necessarily a happy relationship make.
    
    My SO and I have pretty much discussed and agreed on the fact that
    we probably don't want children of our own (biologically).  One
    question is what kind of world will they have to face - war -
    overpopulation - hunger - illness - political crises....There
    are zillions of other ways to impact children who need attention
    ....adopting children, foster children, aunt-and-uncle-ing, god-parenting
    (goddess-parenting?), reading to children in local libraries, giving
    time to child care facilities, teaching subjects that interest us
    part time at local schools.....and the list goes on.  Neither of
    us seems to appreciate babies at this point, and I certainly would
    be stressed-out by having one around 24 hours a day 7 days a week
    for however many years.  
    
    Also, when I hear people saying "oh, my  biological clock is running
    out, and suddenly I want a baby to call my very own" I wonder if
    it is an instinct we must all face and decide (I have too many options
    right now to consider parenting - career, hobbies, avocations, skills
    to develop, friends to make, people to meet....).  I also wonder
    if, upon reaching a certain age, some people feel their own mortality,
    and need to feel their memories, and their traits, will be continued.
     I will share myself gladly with children.  They are amazing.  But
    I don't wish to be a parent.  I know lots of people who want to
    be parents, or are parents, and love it....they find it enriches
    them.  But to say I have to do it the way it's always been done
    is a sad mistake....as is namecalling those who have chosen to be
    parents and homemakers (male and female).

    -Jody
    

    goddess-parenting . . . I love it!
    
    --bonnie

    re. -1
    
    Excuse me, do you mean to imply that two working people who choose
    not to have children are "purposely stupid"?
    
    re. many of the preceding.
    
    I have never heard the term "breeder" and I certainly agree that
    it sounds derogatory.  I do, however, have at least one friend that
    I currently see very little of, since our conversation inevitably
    comes around to her telling me what a mistake I am making in choosing
    not to have children, and how unfufilling my life must.
    
    It is difficult to deal with anyone who feels that the choices they
    have made in life are the only right choice, whether those choices
    involve religion, politics, child-bearing, or just about anything
    else you can name.  In general, I try to give intolerance a wide
    berth.

    A member of (conservative think tank) American Enterprise Institute
    has written a book discussing the population "problem".  Seems there
    is a crisis brewing for the western, industrialized nations; y'all
    ain't breeding _enough_ !  His arguments are that the proportion
    of "western European" stock is rapidly declining with respect to
    the "others".
    
    Given this argument, being a "breeder" may well become the title
    of distinction; saviors of western civilation (for posterity), so
    to speak.
    
    Just wish I could remember his name.  The book was discussed in
    "US News & World Report" a couple weeks back.
    
    Dwight

    Re.0         
    
    When I was a child I always seemed to be in tow behind Mom on some
 kind of shopping trip. God forbid that anyone might have questioned
 motherhood to her or called her a "breeder". She would have cleaned
 their shelves for them whith a crushing left hook. 
    While you may choose to be rude back or ignore it I know what Mom
 would have done. She would have darn near killed the clown right on
 on the spot.
     
                                                             Mike                 

    Maybe the problem is that not many people are interested in Human_Relations!

< Note 336.15 by SSTMV1::BONNIE "BLA, not BRS or BLT" >
                                 -< Re:  .13 >-

<    Maybe the problem is that not many people are interested in Human_Relations!


 hmmm, I can relate to that, but am I huwoman? liesl

    I'm new here too liesl.  
    
    Question:  why am I reading notes at 1:00 and will no doubt get up at
    5:30 with the sun when I could be safely in bed making little human
    relations???
    
    Answer:  bed still empty - married to david letterman freak

< Note 336.13 by AMULET::FARRINGTON "statistically anomalous" >
                                 -< "breeders >-

    A member of (conservative think tank) American Enterprise Institute
    has written a book discussing the population "problem".  

The book is "The Birth Dearth" by Ben Wattenberg.  He was interviewed on 
NPR "Morning Edition" the last two mornings.  I will post some comments 
on the interviews in WommanNotes shortly.

--David 

To be (or not to be) married: 

In my youthful days, only a few (hundred) months ago, I was single
and truly felt sorry about the drab, miserable, all-work-no-play of
the married "breeders". 

Then, I got married and it became apparent to me that something must
be done for the underprivileged, lonely, pathetic singles community.


To have (or not to have) children: 

I have two girls, both born sufficiently after the wedding to
indicate that they were planned for. When they were little and cute
and obedient and wholly dependent on daddy, it was obvious anyone
who doesn't have kids is deprived of the only possible joy in life. 

Then, after a short --far too short-- period, they became teen
agers. I immediately knew that anyone who has kids must --by 
definition-- be a deranged weakling who had given way to an
irresponsible impulse one night when the TV went on the blink. 


It is amazing that more people --nay, absolutely all people-- do not
see these truths in their true, glorious light. 

-- Ron