| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 329.1 | rough when somebody you know changes identity | DEBIT::RANDALL | I'm no lady | Tue Jun 23 1987 20:20 | 25 |
| Most of the issues I can think of seem to be the same as those
accompanying any change of identity, for example divorce or marriage.
It's helpful to know ahead of time what changes are going to take place
before anything visible happens. I don't mean body changes but also
drastic changes in dress, mannerisms, habits, mode of address, and so
on. As an example of the kind of problem I'm talking about: a woman I
worked with several years ago simply came in one morning, sent around
mail telling us her name had changed as of yesterday when the divorce
papers were signed, and then expected this whole group of people who
had worked with her and her husband for several years to suddenly call
her by her maiden name, which most of us had never even heard before.
In this case, involving something very few of your co-workers are
likely to be familiar with, something written might also be helpful --
a copy of an article summarizing what transsexuality means, for
example.
My guess is that most people are going to respect your privacy and feel
great reluctance to ask you any questions, in the same way we would
be unwilling to pry into the circumstances around a divorce. But
the unasked questions could cause difficulty. You may have to take
the initiative in indicating your willingness to be questioned.
--bonnie, wishing you luck and all the best
|
| 329.2 | | NACHO::CONLIFFE | Better living through software | Tue Jun 23 1987 20:29 | 15 |
| I'll add more on this later, but here's a first thought.
I have had some small experience working with people making the transition
from male to female. Surprisingly, I was not disturbed by it greatly, and was
more overcome with curiousity. I didn't find such people distasteful, for
example, nor did I feel "threatened" (?!?) by such people.
One initial word of advice I would offer is for you to tell the people around
you when you plan to arrive in "female" mode as opposed to "male" mode. I know
empirically of one person who left work one Friday as a "man" and, without
warning anyone, showed up on Monday morning as a "woman" (in terms of dress,
makeup, selection of restrooms, mannerisms, etc) without warning ANYONE!
This caused a little bit of an upset as you might imagine.
More later, once the C compiler understands my code
Nigel
|
| 329.3 | footnote | NACHO::CONLIFFE | Better living through software | Tue Jun 23 1987 20:32 | 3 |
| By the way, whoever you are... you are very brave to go through with this.
N
|
| 329.4 | | ERIS::CALLAS | CO in the war between the sexes | Tue Jun 23 1987 20:56 | 10 |
| My reaction? I'd raise an eyebrow and take a couple of deep breaths.
If I'd gotten no warning, I might be ill-at-ease for a while. Not for
being "threatened" or anything, but because my assumptions about you
would be somewhat invalid; essentially, I'd have to meet you again, so
I might be over-polite for a while.
I should hope that, given warning, I'd be able to take it in stride. If
it were a surprise, then, well, it would be a surprise.
Jon
|
| 329.5 | $.02 | HPSCAD::WALL | I see the middle kingdom... | Wed Jun 24 1987 13:29 | 38 |
|
What would be my feelings on working with a transsexual?
I don't know -- I suppose it would depend on how well the person
did the job.
That sounds pretty clinical, but I can't see myself applying any
other metric if my only interaction with a person is in the workplace.
I imagine I'd commit a few boners at the outset -- using the wrong
name or personal pronouns. Given that I knew the person was once
one sex and is now the other. If a transsexual transferred in after
the treatment was finished, I'd never know the difference.
I'd prefer to be told before the fact, by whatever means the person
felt comfortable using, simply to keep from making an ass of myself.
On who they were versus who they are:
Last winter, a good friend and I had a discussion on how people
change over the course of their lives, on how certain events can
leave them completely transformed. We were speaking in terms of
one's attitudes and mannerisms, but I think it's relevant here,
too. He said (I'm paraphrasing)
"Sure, these things happen, and sometimes people change into something
completely different. How long are going to mourn the death of
the person that was? You have to get on with life."
While I can't say for sure, I would hope that I would interact with
people based on what they are, not what they were. I'm not denying
the influence of the latter on the former, but to do anything else
is to fail to face facts.
I wish you the best, whoever you are.
DFW
|
| 329.6 | Give people a chance to get use to the idea | NISYSI::KING | Feb.5.1988 | Wed Jun 24 1987 13:49 | 21 |
| This ones a real mind-opening topic! I am going to speak from how
I would feel about this if it happen to one of the people I know
was going thru this.
First, I would want to know ahead of time about the changed. That
way people could have time to get used to the new you. A sudden
change would definitely effect the work place. And effect how people
would communicate with you/about you.
Second, Let people accept you as you are now, don't try to change
them or their thoughts about you. Be yourself and not someone that
is not the real you.
Third, If they have problems, the hell with them. It shows that
they have some mental problem accepting people as the are. Your
true friends will show support and compassion.
REK
BTW, I tip my hat to you for going through with something this big
as society generally frowns on this. I wish you the best!
|
| 329.8 | personal names? | YODA::BARANSKI | 1's & 0's, what could be simpler?! | Thu Jun 25 1987 14:45 | 51 |
| :-) an informative summary of personal names in this note :-)
================================================================================
Note 329.0 Transsexuality-transition and concerns 7 replies
RTVAX::CANNOY "The seasons change and so do I." 27 lines 23-JUN-1987 16:00
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================================================================================
Note 329.1 Transsexuality-transition and concerns 1 of 7
DEBIT::RANDALL "I'm no lady" 25 lines 23-JUN-1987 16:20
-< rough when somebody you know changes identity >-
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================================================================================
Note 329.2 Transsexuality-transition and concerns 2 of 7
NACHO::CONLIFFE "Better living through software" 15 lines 23-JUN-1987 16:29
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================================================================================
Note 329.4 Transsexuality-transition and concerns 4 of 7
ERIS::CALLAS "CO in the war between the sexes" 10 lines 23-JUN-1987 16:56
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================================================================================
Note 329.5 Transsexuality-transition and concerns 5 of 7
HPSCAD::WALL "I see the middle kingdom..." 38 lines 24-JUN-1987 09:29
-< $.02 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that it would be best to inform a certain number of people that you are
close with personally confidentially beforehand to build up some measure of
support. Then when the news becomes public, your friends will be able to answer
some questions by other people for you, making it easier for everyone.
If someone is having a difficult time dealing with the change... either act/
show/explain that you are still the same person. In any case, be prepared to
have to start as strangers all over and get to know each other all over.
Jim.
|
| 329.10 | with my psychologist's hat on... | VIKING::TARBET | Margaret Mairhi | Fri Jun 26 1987 18:14 | 31 |
|
I agree with Bob (.9) that things would be easier for you if you
switched groups at the same time as you make the social transition. It
*is* hard to overcome old habits even around trivial issues (as we all
know :-) ), and a change in sex membership is the most NON-trivial
change that can be made by a live human being.
Granted most people here at DEC will work very hard to make things easy
for you, but even with the best (collective) will in the world some
awkwardness and embarrassment on both sides is inevitable. Plus there
will always be some stalwart who simply refuses to accept you and will
contrive to make your life a burden to you.
It would probably be a valuable exercise to check with the other women
in the group (without revealing your purpose) in aid of getting some
sense of which people (usually but not always men) have an investment
in men and women being different. Those are the people who are most
likely to be threatened by your change in gender identity, since you
will serve as a living reminder that some of their deepest convictions
have shaky foundations.
Are you undergoing reassignment as part of a well-defined program
such as those that existed at Hopkins and Minnesota? Or did you
have to work out your own salvation by trial and error? Do you
have adequate psychological support? (John Money at Hopkins could
doubtless make a useful referral if you need one.)
Good luck.
=maggie
|
| 329.11 | Reply from the original author | VAXRT::CANNOY | The seasons change and so do I. | Wed Jul 01 1987 15:42 | 185 |
| This reply is from the author of .0
***********************************************************************
First off, I'd like to thank all those who've responded, both through
this conference and through Tamzen. It's refreshing to find people as
open and in touch with their own feelings about this topic. It's not
the sort of thing that most people have to worry about, either for
themselves or regarding another person.
RE: 329.1
> It's helpful to know ahead of time what changes are going to take place
> before anything visible happens. I don't mean body changes but also
> drastic changes in dress, mannerisms, habits, mode of address, and so
> on.
I hadn't thought about specifically mentioning change in dress as I
figured that would be taken for granted. In fact, my method of dress
would probably be low-key, as I prefer jeans and t-shirts to skirts
anyway. Its just that if I came in wearing a t-shirt today, the body
changes would be obvious.
> In this case, involving something very few of your co-workers are
> likely to be familiar with, something written might also be helpful --
> a copy of an article summarizing what transsexuality means, for
> example.
I have a few articles, but the best item I have for explaining what it
is all about is a video tape of an HBO special from a few years ago
called "What Sex Am I?". It dealt with MTF (male to female) and FTM
(female to male) transsexuals.
RE: 329.2
> One initial word of advice I would offer is for you to tell the people
> around you when you plan to arrive in "female" mode as opposed to
> "male" mode. I know empirically of one person who left work one Friday
> as a "man" and, without warning anyone, showed up on Monday morning as
> a "woman" (in terms of dress, makeup, selection of restrooms,
> mannerisms, etc.) without warning ANYONE! This caused a little bit of an
> upset as you might imagine.
Yes, I'm familiar with a person who did just that. I do plan on letting
people know before hand. I have told a few select people in the area I
work already. The response has been like those here.
I'm glad you mentioned restrooms, as that is a big deal. At this
point, I severely limit my use of at-work bathrooms as I am
uncomfortable entering a men's room, but since I'm still working in the
male role, entering a women's room would cause problems. But part of the
full-time test requires it. I'm concerned about problems that may
cause for the other women. I don't want to make people uncomfortable,
but I do have my life to live.
An anecdote from my recent past is that I _had_ used a men's room and as
I was exiting, a guy was going in. He took one look at me and checked
the sign on the door to assure himself it was the right one for him.
RE: 329.5
> Last winter, a good friend and I had a discussion on how people change
> over the course of their lives, on how certain events can leave them
> completely transformed. We were speaking in terms of one's attitudes
> and mannerisms, but I think it's relevant here, too. He said (I'm
> paraphrasing)
> "Sure, these things happen, and sometimes people change into something
> completely different. How long are going to mourn the death of the
> person that was? You have to get on with life."
It is part of something called 'the grief process'. Not only does my
family have to undergo it, as do close friends, but I had to deal with
it.
Re: 329.6
> First, I would want to know ahead of time about the changed. That way
> people could have time to get used to the new you. A sudden change
> would definitely effect the work place. And effect how people would
> communicate with you/about you.
As I said, I plan on letting people know. In fact, a few already do.
> Second, Let people accept you as you are now, don't try to change
> them or their thoughts about you. Be yourself and not someone that is
> not the real you.
Inside, I've always been the same person. Now the outside body is
coming in line with the inside me. I have begun to like myself more
and more as the changes have progressed. But at work, I'm still in the
male role, so that is how people relate to me.
> Third, If they have problems, the hell with them. It shows that they
> have some mental problem accepting people as the are. Your true friends
> will show support and compassion.
Good point. If they have a problem with what I'm doing, that is
_their_ problem.
RE: 329.8
> I think that it would be best to inform a certain number of people that
> you are close with personally confidentially beforehand to build up
> some measure of support. Then when the news becomes public, your
> friends will be able to answer some questions by other people for you,
> making it easier for everyone.
I've been doing that. There are people I work with who know about what
I'm undergoing, and the response from them has been very good.
329.9
> This was done when major changes in policy were made in regards to
> sexual harassment, so I would expect the management would be receptive
> to providing this same sort of thing for transsexuals.
In dealings my psychologist has had with DEC personnel regarding others
who have been transitioning, he found that the company understands and
supports at a corporate level. My only concerns have been the men and
other women I work with.
> People tend to fear what they don't understand; and have been told
> repeatedly by <whomever> that anything out of the ordinary is
> abnormal.
> There's lots of erroneous folklore around on this topic; it'd be nice
> to see some facts for a change.
That's why I wanted the topic brought up here. Do people think an
article entered here might be useful?
RE: 329.10
> It would probably be a valuable exercise to check with the other women
> in the group (without revealing your purpose) in aid of getting some
> sense of which people (usually but not always men) have an investment
> in men and women being different. Those are the people who are most
> likely to be threatened by your change in gender identity, since you
> will serve as a living reminder that some of their deepest convictions
> have shaky foundations.
Its funny, the only people I have so far felt comfortable in telling
and talking with about this have been other women. I have yet to tell
any of the guys I work with.
> Are you undergoing reassignment as part of a well-defined program such
> as those that existed at Hopkins and Minnesota? Or did you have to
> work out your own salvation by trial and error? Do you have adequate
> psychological support? (John Money at Hopkins could doubtless make a
> useful referral if you need one.)
I think some information is in order at this point.
There are a limited number of gender clinics in the US. There is one
in Hartford, CT and I have been in contact with them. There used to be
one in the Boston area, but it disbanded a few years ago.
The doctors I'm seeing (a psychologist and an endocrinologist) were
members of that clinic. They are following the Harry Benjamin
guidelines for treatment, with modifications due to the time-table I
had established for myself.
The guidelines call for meetings with a psychologist prior to beginning
hormones. Continued visits while on hormones. At some point, the
full-time portion of the test in which the person lives in the new
gender role for at least a year prior to being considered for surgery.
Then evaluations by various doctors, including psychologists,
psychiatrists, etc. in order to get the recommendation for surgery.
Finally, surgery. This final step seems the most important to lots of
people, but in actuality is fairly minor. The point being that the
guidelines don't turn someone into a woman, the person should be one
before starting. (I'm separating "woman" (gender) from "female"
(anatomical) at this point.)
I have been undergoing electrolysis for over two years, been in
psychological counseling for over two years, and have been on hormone
therapy for more than a year and a half. When not at work, I'm pretty
much living in the female role. I plan on beginning full-time (work
included) later this year, with surgery tentatively planned for the
summer of 1989.
Again, thanks to all who have so far responded, and I hope the topic
can be kept alive.
|
| 329.13 | it isn't necessarily transsexual behavior | VIKING::TARBET | Margaret Mairhi | Thu Jul 02 1987 13:22 | 57 |
| <--(.12)
um, properly speaking, Bob, the individual you describe was displaying
trans v e s t itic behavior, which may be but isn't necessarily
transsexual. There are any number of normal people (normal in the
sense of feeling in tune with their sex membership) who cross-dress for
one reason or another.
Sometimes they do it for mundane reasons as, for example, the
well-documented cases of women who cross-dressed in order to escape the
social restrictions on women (particularly in earlier centuries).
There were 2 women in our Revolutionary War (their names escape
me...Deborah Sampson(?)...can't remember) who did that.
Sometimes they do it because of a sort of painful ..."confusion" is the
best way I can think to describe it: they feel in tune with their body
but at least somewhat, and often entirely, out of joint with the social
role that goes along with it. The Chevalier d'Eon in (17th? 18th?)
century France was such a person. "He" lived on and off as a woman all
"his" life.
Some do it as a way to express various emotions around being gay
or lesbian, though the common mythology that says lesbians are
unfeminine and gay men unmasculine is a crock. Many psychologists
interested in questions of "sexology" consider that the only
essential qualification for being masculine or feminine is whether
the person considers a male or female body the right thing to have;
all else is individual or cultural variation on a theme.
Of course, some cross-dress as part of the reassignment process, as the
writer of .0 will soon be doing at work, and is now doing offline. (Of
course, it's only the failure of our language's expressive abilities
that made me phrase it that way. From a psychological perspective, the
"cross"-dressing is what .0 is doing at work, not outside.)
And, last but not least, some people cross-dress because of a
schizophrenic [in a technical sense] confusion about their own sex
membership at the moment. These folks, when not suffering from
the schizophrenia, generally are quite ordinary (though of course
members of the first four groups are not immune from schzophrenia
any more than anyone else is).
In answer to your question about whether you can talk about it:
probably. If I had any suspicion that a psychotic disorder was
involved I'd be fairly cautious about saying anything that might upset
things (such as threatening or disparaging remarks, which I can't
believe you'd ever do anyway), but otherwise an appropriate
ice-breaking question might be to ask, in a spirit of honest inquiry,
how the person would prefer to be addressed ("It doesn't seem quite
right under the circumstances to call you Bill, but it'll be too hard
to keep saying Mmmnph all night. What should I do?"). The answer to
that question would, I think, provide clues to further questions or
would give you a hint that the right move would be to beat a hasty
retreat and take the whole question up later when things had stabilised
somewhat.
=maggie
|
| 329.14 | I'd try not to stare... | SSDEVO::YOUNGER | I haven't lost my mind - it's Backed-up on tape somewhere | Fri Jul 03 1987 03:28 | 18 |
| RE .0:
If a co-worker were to tell me that he/she was going to change sexes,
and proceeded to start dressing and acting like the sex they felt
they should be, I would probably have a hard time not staring at
the person, all the while being extra polite. I have some limited
experience with this, but from what I've seen, the person did not
really change the way he/she had acted previously - he had always
acted in a rather feminine way. It was just that he was now wearing
dresses and makeup, fixing his/her hair differently and telling
people when he would surgically become a woman.
What I'm trying to say is that while most parts of me would be totally
accepting of the situation, there are some underling feelings that
would make me a little uncomfortable, at least at first.
Elizabeth
|
| 329.15 | I want to understand this... | GOLD::OPPELT | If they can't take a joke, screw 'em! | Fri Jul 10 1987 18:03 | 52 |
| re .0
A very interesting subject. I have some questions, some are quite
direct, and I hope that being anonymous you will feel free to
answer them...
At what time in your life did you realize the need to make the
change?
How old are you now? Did you date as an adolescent?
Did you practice a heterosexual lifestyle before your decision,
or did you practice a gay lifestyle?
If you were gay before the decision, will you consider yourself
heterosexual after the change?
How do you pay for this? Insurance? If you have to pay for it
yourself, and I'm sure it must be expensive, then surely there can
be no doubt about your sincerity in your decision. (Not to say that
there is doubt anyway...)
Did your body function sexually as a male before the hormone
treatments? I assume that the treatments affect that now. Will
your body function sexually (not reproductively) as a female
after the operation?
(I'm sorry if these last few were personal and if they may have
offended you. For me, most aspects of human existence have sexual
implications. I am curious about the sexual implications here. I
am also aware that there is more to this for you than sexual
considerations. My understanding of transsexuals is that there are
more emotional and psychological implications that physical sexual
implications. Nonetheless, as a human, and as a sexual person,
I have a curiosity about this and its sexual implications...)
Are you married now? I ask this because I worked one summer job
where my boss had previously gone through exactly what you are
doing. At the time she had already completed even the operation.
The company supported his decision, and fully supported him as he
became her, and let her keep her job (which was a rather high-
level managerial job at a major chemical company). Before the
change he was married with two adopted kids. I was always curious
about the implications and emotional strains to his wife and kids,
but was really unable to ask about it. I wondered of they stayed
together. And if so and remained sexually active, did they
consider themselves lesbians afterwards...
Enough qusetions for now. Thanks for considering them.
Joe Oppelt
|
| 329.16 | Reply from the original author | VAXRT::CANNOY | The seasons change and so do I. | Thu Jul 23 1987 17:48 | 79 |
|
This reply is from the author of .0
***********************************************************************
Re: 329.12 (I had written this response before reading Maggie's
response
The wearing of womens' clothes is not behaviour indicative of being
a transsexual. Transvestites wear womens' clothes, but they do it
for entirely different reasons than a transsexual.
For the transvestite, wearing the clothes is a) fun, and/or b) a turn-on.
The transsexual is simply wearing the clothing which is appropriate for
their gender.
You mentioned that transsexual behaviour would be acceptable in the
group you described. Why is that??
Re: 329.15
> At what time in your life did you realize the need to make the
> change?
As early as kindergarten, I knew something was wrong. It wasn't
until later in life (~12) that I read an article about transsexuals
and knew that it was possible to set things straight. In a biology
class years ago, I did a paper on birth-control techniques. It was
during research for it that I found out about hormones and secondary
sex characteristics. I knew at that point I needed to begin taking
hormones.
> How old are you now? Did you date as an adolescent?
Early 30's. Very seldom.
> Did you practice a heterosexual lifestyle before your decision,
> or did you practice a gay lifestyle?
>
> If you were gay before the decision, will you consider yourself
> heterosexual after the change?
I prefer not to answer these two in their entirety, so...
Until approximately two years ago (a few months after I had made
the decision to begin transition), I didn't practice any sort of
sexual lifestyle, I was asexual.
> How do you pay for this? Insurance? If you have to pay for it
> yourself, and I'm sure it must be expensive, then surely there can
> be no doubt about your sincerity in your decision. (Not to say that
> there is doubt anyway...)
From all I'd heard when I began, there were few insurance companies
which would pay for it, so I planned on paying for it myself (~$6500
in colorado, ~$3500 in Brussels, Belgium). I have heard recently
that the insurance I have will cover it.
> Did your body function sexually as a male before the hormone
> treatments? I assume that the treatments affect that now. Will
> your body function sexually (not reproductively) as a female
> after the operation?
Yes, yes and yes. The hormones have been altering the secondary
sex characteristics, and have given me some interesting times.
I am on a cycle (28-day, of course) of estrogens and progesterones,
and I have a girlfriend who can tell when I've switched medication
as I get very PMSy.
> I'm sorry if these last few were personal and if they may have
> offended you.
No offense, I can chose what and how much to answer.
> Are you married now?
No
|
| 329.17 | | CRETE::LEVITAN | | Mon Aug 03 1987 20:23 | 35 |
| I had an acquaintence whose son became her daughter. My friend
didn't talk about it until the time was close for the surgery.
Then she talked quite openly. I never met "Joe" but I did meet
"Jodie." She was absolutely delightful - and I was told, as nice
as "Joe." That's not my point - a nice person is a nice person.
But in talking to "Jodie's" mother I was told that the whole family
underwent psychological therapy and though they went through difficult
times, the only one who wouldn't/couldn't accept "Jodie" was Jodie's
sister-in-law and she claimed that the children wouldn't understand.
The psychologist was very helpful re: the children, but she refused
to accept the change.
You talk about the actual surgery being minor - but Jodie's wasn't
and she went through a difficult time (guess that can happen with
any surgery).
I find it interesting that you have talked to women at work about
your plans - but not men. I think you ought to give yourself a
lot of time to let the men you work with get used to the idea.
From the experience I've had when mentioning my friend's son - who
is now her daughter - it's the men that find it difficult to accept.
They are frankly, horrified. It's the thought of having the penis
removed.
"Jodie" works in a well-known hospital in NYC and the change from
"Joe" to "Jodie" was taken pretty much in stride. But her mother
told me that friends of "Jodie's" who had undergone the change chose
to change jobs or job locations to make that part of their lives
easier. It takes a long time before the explanations cease. The
paperwork - as you probably know - is tremendous --- from ss card,
to birth certificate, driver's license, insurance policies, etc.
"Jodie's" parents moved to Fla. and I haven't seen them for quite
some time - but the last I heard, "Jodie" was VERY happy in her
life. I wish the same to you.
|
| 329.18 | Applause, Applause | FIRFTR::BURLEW | Take a SOUTHWIND to adventure! | Fri Sep 18 1987 15:04 | 41 |
| RE: .0
Personally, I have to give you credit for being open about this
to such a wide audience (a NOTES file). I can imagine how difficult
it is to enter into gender congruity surgery, but how rewarding
it must be for you to become one with yourself.
As for working/interacting with fellow DECies, as long as you continue
with your current attitude (as shown in your responses), you should
have little trouble being fully accepted as to who you always have
been. As for the bathroom situation, why not start by using one
of the handicaped (unisex) bathrooms until your fellow workers get
used to your outward physical change.
What we all need to realize is that you havn't changed inside, you are
still you. Only the external physical shell that we as humans use to
prejudge people is changing. You will simply be alligning the outer
facade with the person who has been trapped inside all along.
I would have no problems working for a known transperson (MTF or
FTM) as long as they don't change their attitudes towards their
fellow employees. Over my 7+ years here at DEC, I have come to
understand it doesn't matter who does what job as long as that person
is right for the particular job. As an engineer, it doesn't matter
what sex an individual is. I work closely with genetic males and
females every day and think of the simply as fellow workers. As
for one's dress at DEC, half the time the men have longer hair than
the women, and in jeans and loose shirts, who can tell?
I also must applaude our company for being so understanding in
assisting you in your decision to undergo gender reasessment therapy
and that our insurance company is modern enough to assist on the
financial end.
To answer one of your questions, yes, I think it would be benificial
to have the article you mentioned published here, or at the very
least, made available through our DIGITAL library system.
Best of luck as you go through this stressful time of transition.
/TEB
|
| 329.19 | MORE DIFFICULT IF I KNEW YOU BEFORE | VAXUUM::MUISE | | Thu Oct 01 1987 18:04 | 21 |
| I feel so much compassion for you. I can only imagine what the
past 30+ years have been like for you. And now, I have a great
deal of respect for the courage you have found to overcome your
plight. I hope you find the inner peace you seek and deserve.
However, to be truthful, I don't think my reaction could be quite
as easy if I knew you. I would still *want* to react this way,
but I have to admit, I would be uncomfortable around you after
the change. I don't know how long it would take me to disregard
it. It's difficult to accept *any* drastic physical change in
someone you know.
All I can assure you of, is that I (and I would imagine most) would
want the best for you, and would try hard to make your transition
as easy as possible. But would it be difficult? Unfortunately,
for me... yes.
jacki
|
| 329.20 | Anonymous note from author of .0 | VAXRT::CANNOY | Down the river of Night's dreaming | Fri May 20 1988 17:18 | 32 |
| I am entering this note for the author of .0.
******************************************************************
For those who were wondering what had been happening relating to this
topic, I have an update.
Several months ago, I attended a convention in Chicago. It was the
second annual convention for the International Foundation for Gender
Education (IFGE). In addition to being technical advisor for the
convention, I was a speaker on a few of the panels on transsexualism.
I also got a chance to meet, and dine with, Christine Jorgenson.
Following my return from the convention, I began telling the rest of
the people from my group individually. Although there were some
responses along the lines of "I don't agree with it, but if you're
happy...", most are accepting, and a few are supportive.
The hormone-induced body changes had become too evident to hide,
clothes didn't hang on my like they do on a man. I got tired of
running two separate lives, that of a man at work and of a woman
everywhere else.
So...
I recently began the 'full-life test', during which I live and work as
a woman full-time. This is a step in the transition process which is
required to be done for at least one year before being considered for
surgery by any of the reputable gender clinics or surgeons.
Megan
|
| 329.21 | transsexual surgery, and recollection of an old friendd | HANNAH::OSMAN | type hannah::hogan$:[osman]eric.vt240 | Fri Jan 13 1989 18:29 | 71 |
|
Wow. Fascinating account.
Could you please explain what this surgery is ? Again, sorry
for asking a personal question, but hopefully it won't hurt to ask,
even if I don't get an answer. Is the penis actually cut off, and
a hole formed for a vagina ? Does the hole actually go anywhere?
What about orgasms ? Do they occur ? Where (on the scar tissue??)
do they occur. This part of the whole subject I find the most
baffling to comprehend. What about moisture in the vagina. Is
there natural moisture?
When my sister was in college, she made friends with a woman named
Dale.
She brought Dale home and everyone in our family, including me, liked
Dale very much.
I noticed Dale was quite slender, rather flatchested (although I never
saw her nude), and had a low voice.
But all-in-all, I regarded her as quite feminine, and it never occurred
to me that she might be anything but.
In fact, I even developed a crush on Dale.
She seemed to become closest to my brother Willy, perhaps even more
so than her friendship with my sister, which as I said was first.
I even remember a special kinship which seemed to be shared between
Dale and my father (yes, my parents were and are happily married).
I was even a bit jealous of that kinship.
I often asked my brother if there was anything "going on" between
Dale and him. He always denied it.
I remember several times trying to get physically close to Dale, but
she always resisted. Just casual encounters like my trying to put
my arm around her as we walked from a movie back to the car, and her
wriggling out and saying no thank you.
Well, years later I found out my brother is gay. Even that is now
old news, as he "came out" about eight years ago.
But what was even more surprising was finding out from him just several
years ago that Dale used to be male, and "changed" to female back when
she was about 16.
This was quite a shock to me to hear this. All sorts of things raced
through my head. What did she do ? What sort of surgery ? What
does she "look like down there" now.
Other things zung through my head. What did my crush on her mean ?
Physically, she was very attractive, but there was always that low
voice and slenderness to her. Velvety, I'd describe her voice as.
Did my attraction mean I was gay ? I don't think I'm gay. I certainly
have lots of attractions to women and never to men.
But Dale hasn't been in communication with our family for a number
of years. In fact, a number of years ago her sister committed suicide,
if I recall correctly. I know, you ask how I could forget a thing like
that. Perhaps suppression. I don't know. Actually I never knew
anyone in her family.
Sometimes I wonder what ever became of her. And how would I relate
to her now that I know she used to be a man.
Thanks for reading.
/Eric
|
| 329.22 | attracted to transsexuals | BURDEN::BARANSKI | Peace is breaking out all over! | Wed Jan 18 1989 22:40 | 8 |
| RE: being attracted to transsexuals...
Interesting... I know of a woman who claims to be attracted to mostly men
who have a lot of female traits... especially David Bowie...
What does that mean? beats me...
Jim.
|
| 329.23 | oddly atractive, but not female in character | WMOIS::B_REINKE | If you are a dreamer, come in.. | Thu Jan 19 1989 00:18 | 8 |
| in re .22
The only time I've ever seen David Bowie other than in still
photographs was in the movie Labyrinth. There he is not particularly
'female' in his behavior/traits. I do find him rather strangely
attractive in that movie. He exudes an odd sort of power.
Bonnie
|
| 329.24 | From anonymous author of base note. | VAXRT::CANNOY | Convictions cause convicts. | Thu Jan 19 1989 12:26 | 38 |
|
The following is a reply to HR_329.21 from the author of the base note.
**********************************************************************
I would not be worried about being gay because of your crush on Dale,
you related to her as a man to a woman. Anyway, there isn't anything
wrong with being gay because after all, you love a person, not a sex.
Also, if you were to meet Dale again, don't think of her as having once
been a man, she may have been male, but never a man, so relate to her as
she is, a woman.
Some may wish to <NEXT> past the following description. Rather explicit
medical details follow.
Not for the potentially squeamish. You were warned.
The procedure basically involves the skinning of the penis, the
creation of a cavity below and behind its normal position and the
turning inside-out of the penile tissue to form a vagina which is
then placed in the previously formed cavity. In some procedures,
the head of the penis is used to simulate the cervix. The testicles
are removed, but the scrotal sac is used to create the lips. A clitoris
is created in the normal position from (I'm not sure which) tissue.
Orgasm is possible. The formerly external tissue undergoes a change
once it becomes internal, creating natural moisture, but not as much as
with a natural-born female.
The outside appearance is as it would be with a natural-born female, and
the internal structure appears that of a female who has undergone a
hysterectomy, especially with the simulated cervix, even to some GYN's.
For a number of months following the surgery, the patient must dilate
for several hours a day in order to maintain depth and to ensure the
vagina does not close.
|
| 329.25 | WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | NRADM::PLAMONDON | | Thu Jan 26 1989 01:12 | 1 |
| WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|