Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Whoops.
(*) Factoid:  Something which has the appearance of a fact but may not in fact
		be demonstrable as one. A strongly held opinion or belief,
		which can take on the appearance of a fact in argument or
		debate.

    re: .0

    I can't speak for other people who include personal experiences
    that you choose to label "true confessions", but I don't put anything
    here that I wouldn't admit to you in person if you should ask me
    in similar circumstances -- say if we were discussing the economic
    situation in New Hampshire before a meeting started.  

    True, the factual content of a lot of notes is rather low. I would
    point out, however, that some of the wildest departures from verifiable
    data and normal logic are the ones least connected to personal
    experience. 
    
    But beyond that, I'm not quite sure what bothers you about notes
    recounting personal experience.  This file is about human relations,
    and most of us, being human, have a fair amount of experience, both
    good and bad, in human relations.  
    
    Do you want us to discount the value of our own experience and present
    only extracts of sociological reports?  Do you object to knowning your
    co-workers are people?  Are you offended because I'm not ashamed to
    admit that my daughter was born "out of wedlock" or that others in this
    file have gone through painful divorces or admit they've had abortions?
    Does it bother you when we find out that "DEC's in New England, all's
    right with the world" isn't quite as true as we'd like it to be? 
    
    We've all made mistakes and had difficult experiences in our lives. But
    most of us remain healthy and on the whole well-adjusted.  Further,
    when we are going through one of life's difficult experiences, it can
    be immensely helpful to find out how others have coped with the same
    situation.  Living well is in part a skill that can be learned, and I
    thank God for the people who have helped me learn those skills, from my
    parents to the people in these notes files.
    
    We're not just a bunch of boxes on an organization chart taking
    information from one side and putting productivity out the other. We're
    human beings who need to learn to live and work together. That
    sometimes means admitting that we've been less than perfect.  Notes
    simply provides a mechanism to let us extend that ability to learn
    to live and work together and understand each other. 
    
    Today DEC, tomorrow the USENET, and then, who knows -- maybe the world! 
    
    --bonnie
    
    p.s.  You want the really "unsavory" stuff? Sorry, you'll have to wait
    and buy my novels :) :) :) :) :) :) 

|< Note 311.3 by CREDIT::RANDALL "Bonnie Randall Schutzman" >
    
|    But beyond that, I'm not quite sure what bothers you about notes
|    recounting personal experience.  

Bonnie and I exchanged MAIL on this, and I offer the following clarification
of my feeling: 

 Some (if not most) of the personal experiences offered in these notesfiles
are heavily slanted in favor of the person doing the telling. Hell, we've
all been guilty of this (yeah, even me!). 

 In cases where the other person/people involved are inside the DEC umbrella,
and may indeed be reading this very notesfile, I'm suspicious that the major
reason for some of the "true confession" is to inflict pain on person or
persons unknown. Perhaps a secondary motive is to allow the "bleeder" to
justify some dubious stance on the "bleedee" by saying, 'But I entered a note
in the FROTZ conference, and I've had a lot of mail supporting my position'. 

 If the other person/people involved are outside the Digital umbrella, then
the "true confessions" serve little purpose (as far as I can see) other than
self-justification or (mayhap) self-flagellation.

 I'm still curious why people enter such things, and I'd be fascinated to see
what their goals are.

			Nigel

    Presumably if one strayed too far into the realms of untruth and
    issued statements that damaged the reputation of the other person,
    whoever that other person is, normal legal considerations of libel
    and slander would apply and the recipient of the abuse could sue
    for defamation.
    

    Nigel brings up some interesting questions, but my first instinct
    is to say "If you don't like what you read, don't read it."
    
    Yes, I DO think of this conference (and MENNOTES and WOMANNOTES)
    as a "cheap EAP", or more so as group therapy.  Certainly it has
    helped me to recover from my personal pain.
    
    I don't see anything wrong with people opening up their feelings,
    as long as they do understand the potential audience.  Sometimes
    people forget, such as those who have admitted to illegal acts
    in notes they write.  Your moderators are watchful for such
    over-enthusiasm, and try to control it on behalf of the noters.
    
    As for why people write what they do - it is true that, especially
    in this conference, we write about personal interactions, and it's
    very common to have the other person we're discussing be a DECcie
    and a noter.  Some people have indeed tried to use this conference
    as a "kangaroo court", or a weapon against another noter.  Again,
    the moderators can intervene and have done so on several occasions.
    Usually, it is during one of these instances where we "learn more
    about someone than we ever wanted to know", but for the most part,
    that information is kept out of the conference.
    
    Now I have some personal experience in all of this, because I too
    could write about pain caused by other noters, some of it very
    deep and intense.  However, I have struggled to keep my composure
    in my notes, and when I do touch on these subjects, I tend to
    couch my words in such obscurity that sometimes the wrong person
    thinks I am writing about them.  In general, the individual
    pain has subsided or even vanished, so in a way it's better that
    I said nothing harmful.  However, in the one case where I could be most
    vitriolic, I have remained silent.  Why?  Because this is not the
    proper forum for such a battle.  Nor would I gain anything but
    momentary satisfaction at the other's great expense.  I do not
    believe in revenge.
    
    This conference has really changed my life.  It has brought me new
    friends, new understanding, new hope.  I am pleased to continue
    hosting it in the hope that others may benefit as well.  I realize
    that some are just too cynical, too self-centered, to see the
    advantages, the caring, the support that the conferences offer.
    Even Digital recognizes the benefit of this conference, as expressed
    by representatives of Corporate Personnel.  Long may it live.
    
    					Steve

    re. personal-interest NOTES as cheap therapy
    
    yup.  It's cheap and a good way to start.  The rape note in womannotes
    has done an awful lot of good for a lot of women: just to know someone
    else has experienced something like that can make the whole experience
    a lot more easy to cope with.  If someone bashes you in notes, you
    can leave, if you get really upset by something you read, no one
    sees you cry, the confrontation is entirely optional.  Going to
    a crisis center is a lot harder: when you let *it* (whatever your
    personal *it* is...) overwhelm you, you don't always have a chance
    to regroup and face it when you can stand it.  Talking to young
    battered women, letting them know they aren't sick for lovng a husband
    who hits them but the husband or the abuse has to go... the reaction
    I've seen is first "I'm so happy I'm not alone" which turns into
    "I'm so angry I'm not alone" ==> hearing about others is their first
    step in coping with their own stuff.
    
    Calling up notes is a whole lot easier to dare than driving to your
    local therapist.  And so far, it seems to have helped people (some
    women anyway...dunno 'bout you guys :) )
    
    Lee

Nigel,

Do you really think that expressing yourself on a painfull subject in here is
any different from doing that with a friend or whatever?  I don't think that it
is fundamentally different, except that it's a different audience, and yes, when
you write something in here you should be aware of the potential audience.

I here two or three different questions being asked here...  

Why are these people bleeding all over? 
Why are these people bleeding all over *in this file*?
Why are these people bleeding all over *me*?

Which of these are you asking?

Why do people bleed?  Because they are hurt, and bleeding helps.  Is that a good
enough reason by itself?  (yes) Why in this file?  Maybe they don't have anybody
else to bleed to?  Does it matter? (not to me)  Why you/I? I don'now about you,
but I enjoy giving people a hand, and there sure are times when I can use one. 

I see that some of this comes off a bit angry...  it's not meant to, but
I'll leave it the way it is...

Jim.

    Confidentiality and respect are the keys.
    
    MM

|Do you really think that expressing yourself on a painfull subject in here is
|any different from doing that with a friend or whatever?  

YES, Jim, I DO FEEL IT IS DIFFERENT. I see this file (amongst others) as 
a public rather than a private forum. I see that "discussing" something in
this file is more akin to broadcasting your beliefs/feelings/pain to the
world, rather than talking to a counsellor, to a friend or indeed to a 
therapy group. It is easy to forget this, given the intimacy with which
notes can be entered.

 An analogy that has been made before is that writing something to a conference
(such as this) is like pinning a hardcopy of the note to the outside of one's 
office wall, or indeed to the noticeboard in the cafeteria. Does one really go
around pinning up public notices advertizing the sordid details of one's
private life, and the abuses (real or imagined) to which one has been 
subjected)?

To me, emotional pain is a private thing. To me, that pain is made worse by
being made public, rather than being kept in a private part of my own world. I
would find it very very hard to write some of the notes which I have read, and
I find it hard to believe that the people who are writing those notes are being
helped by the process. Hence, some of my questions about motivation and intent.

I admit that I am extrapolating my own feelings and (possible) motives onto
other peoples activities, but I'm trying to improve my understanding of my
fellow humans, not to condemn others for "being different".


|Why are these people bleeding all over? 
|Why are these people bleeding all over *in this file*?
|Why are these people bleeding all over *me*?
|Which of these are you asking?

I'm asking why these people are bleeding in public, and not trying to keep
their grief/betrayal/pain out of the public eye.  Because I don't see how
having (potentially) 60,000 people be aware of your problem (or even 1000)
can be helpful.

			Nigel

    I don't think I understand the problem, if indeed there is one.
    Obviously the folks that feel the need to publicly discuss problems
    or situations will do so.  Those who don't feel comfortable will
    refrain.  Those who want to read about others problems, and per-
    haps offer advice/insight/suggestions/empathy/rapport etc will
    do so.  Not everyone reads Dear Abbey's column either.
    
    The conference is less public than the bulletin board by the
    dining room.  And some participants in this file become familiar
    enough to almost be friends.  Sometimes a person does not WANT to
    have friends and/or coworkers know about personal problems.  Sometimes
    one needs a more neutral opinion.  Sometimes one needs a variety
    of opinions.  Sometimes friends are not available.  There are a
    number of reasons to discuss a painful situation in a particular
    conference.  I talk about my dog in CANINE.  I come to this conference
    to discuss issues relevent to the topics.  At least you get a broader
    sampling, a wider audience, and perhaps the benefit of more experience
    than limiting yourself to a close group of friends.
    
    

    i've done it,i am sorry i've done it,and i have learned from it.
    i have also found that people sometimes read more into a note than
    is really there,almost like they want to see scandle.
    
    						kelly

    Nigel,
    
    People discuss what is important to them.  Someone upset about
    a personal problem is more likely to be under stress, a candidate
    for illness, and certainly can not be at their best.
    
    These conferences provide the individual with an opportunity releases
    emotion, and provides them with valuable feedback.  This can help them
    become more productive employees and well as happier people. 
                                                                
    Some people enjoy helping others.  I gain satisfaction if I can
    help someone.
     
    Nigel, why does it bother you?

    The people I feel sorry for are those who only read this conference
    and the others like it for their own amusement, and not because
    they feel they may be helped or may have something to offer in
    return.  These people have forgotten how to care.
    
    					Steve

    Nigel -- the point about the bulletin board is well taken, but it
    breaks down in that a note posted on a bulletin board is not in any way
    interactive, while something written here will generate a response from
    at least some of the many people who read it daily. 
    
    In many ways a notes conference is more similar to a panel discussion
    -- on any given topic, a few of us carry on the discussion while the
    others listen and nod, or look in on it and decide it doesn't interest
    them, the difference being that anyone can be on the panel and drop off
    when they feel like it. 
    
    In other ways, posting a note is not that different from publishing an
    article or writing a book.  Depending on the kind of material you're
    dealing with, you may have to be deeply personal (and I should point
    out that one can be deeply personal without doing anything recognizable
    as 'bleeding', either), but once that manuscript is in print, you have
    no control over who reads it or what they will think about it. 
    
    As for why -- people are just that different.  Some people are intensely 
    private.  Others like to live in public.  They *want* thousands of 
    people to know how they feel; they like being on stage and the center
    of attention.  I'm more open about my feelings and experiences than 
    a lot of people are, but I've read things in here that I would 
    never have said. 

    For example, I would never consider discussing my sex life in notes or
    in any other forum that could be even remotely public. I have a good
    friend who feels no qualms about discussing her sex life but who would
    die if anyone even remotely suspected that not very deep down inside
    she hates being 'liberated' and wants nothing more than to get married
    and have a roomful of babies.  Discussing areas where my phsycological
    and emotional tolerance still have to grow doesn't bother me at all. 
     
    There are a couple of things I wish I hadn't said in notes.  There are
    things I wish I hadn't said in meetings and things I wish I hadn't said
    to my father-in-law, too.  That doesn't mean the medium of notes, or
    meetings, or dinner-table conversation, is in itself the problem. 
    
    The problem is that not everything that is said in these notes files is
    carefully considered and not everyone is motivated by goodwill and
    determined to be honest and helpful.  A malicious person who appears
    honest could cause a lot of damage, as could an honest person motivated
    by less noble motives -- I hurt, therefore I'm going to make you hurt,
    too.  But this kind of damage is not unique to noters.  When you bitch
    in notes about the way your boss treats you, you may have a bigger
    audience than when you bitch about your boss over drinks after work,
    but you're not doing anything different or more unfair. 

    --bonnie

RE: .13
    
>To me, emotional pain is a private thing. To me, that pain is made worse by
>being made public, rather than being kept in a private part of my own world. I
>would find it very very hard to write some of the notes which I have read, and
>I find it hard to believe that the people who are writing those notes are being
>helped by the process. Hence, some of my questions about motivation and intent.

    Precisely.  I do not believe Nigel is out to caste any judgement on the
    people who pour their most private thoughts in this conference. The
    only thing I personally wonder is the person doing the confession
    really *knows* the audience.  I wonder if (s)he is doing when the
    passion of the moment is very high.  Does (s)he understand all the
    consequences of coming out in this or any other such conference. 
    
    May be it is just due to the fact that I come from a different culture.

    - Vikas

RE: Nigel

Pardon my disection of notes technique...

"|Do you really think that expressing yourself on a painfull subject in here is
 |any different from doing that with a friend or whatever?"

I then go on to say that the only difference is one of audience, which you
seem to agree with...  I'm incompletely quoted...

I think a better analogy to notes would be a TV talk show with an audience
who gets in the act.

I seriously doubt that the pain is worsened by being expressed in NOTES in more
then 10% of cases.  I feel that in about 33% of cases people are actually helped
by notes.  Certainly I could search this conference and find notes of thanks;
I'm not sure I could find a note of complaint (other then yours :-))

I can tell you that hiding grief/betrayal/pain is definitely not productive. Any
counselor will tell you so, and most of their business is bringing to the
surface buried grief and pain. 

Jim.

    hmm.  let me see if I can put this down without going overboard.
    
    I look upon this, and other modes of similar communication, as a
    supportive network of intelligent people, each bringing with them
    the sum of their experiences.  Within this group is a web of
    feelings and viewpoints on what they have experienced, and what
    those around them are experiencing.  Some people will misuse this
    forum, some people will mistake this forum for entertainment, or
    a "national enquirer", or a gripe session.  I am glad to help others
    with what I have experienced, although there are some things I do
    not discuss here.  Most of what I say here, as well as in other
    notes files, are my opinions.  Most of the time, I feel the other
    people nodding acceptance (whether they agree or not) when they
    respond to a topic and its  notes.  They add their insights,
    and clarify their positions in relation to mine and others'.  This
    is a bank of human interest....a federal reserve of experience and
    remark....and a vast sharing with people whom I would not otherwise
    know.  Yes, I trust them.  Yes, I care for them.  Otherwise I would
    not be here.
    
    (that wasn't so bad - was it?)
    
    -Jody

[I believe this was meant to be a reply to this topic]
    
================================================================================
Note 312.0                        A good medium                       No replies
FLOWER::JASNIEWSKI                                   36 lines  26-MAY-1987 08:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    	Doing the "bleeding" is just a form of extrovertism that is
    a mode of being most people get into from time to time. Could you
    imagine being a *total* introvert, never going outside yourself
    for any support, advice or even a game of intellectual "tag"??
    
    	Notes is a decent medium for getting outside yourself! Its
    interactive, but gives you time (Unlike in conversation) to *think*
    about comes out of you before you committ to "saying" it. Most
    noters take advantage of this aspect...
    
    	The conferences each have unique groups of people "hanging around"
    - even though they are definately open to all. You can enter a note
    in anticipation of sharing something with a particular group by
    placing it in a particular conference - though this practice is/has
    been "arguable". You have to admit, there is at least *some* people
    in DEC who do not note, cannot handle the *key*strokes (thats one
    word) to "get in", and, in the sheer volume of information (enough
    for a CD-ROM) would simply never get to all the things that are
    talked about. The bulletin board overfloweth; some things are "set
    hidden" by this fact. Not absolutely, but what is anyway?
    
    	I sorta liked Mr Moderator's "Free advice is worth every Cent"
    quote thingy - Too bad he changed it! :')
    
    	I think things have definately gone too far when people put
    smiley faces within paranthesis - and dont bother to use a different
    bracket [there's at least three other sets available] than that
    which makes up the smile of the smiley face. It's confusing to look
    at - and no, reversing the sense of the smiley face does not make
    the practice "ok"!!
    
    	I dont know how to set up my "quote thingy" either.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    
    >> re re re
    
    Jim et all... I am not sure that Nigel is complaining or is upset at the
    "bleeding" that goes on here... I think he was just curious about
    the human condition that led to people discussing private matters
    in public.
    
    ON THAT NOTE: Are NOTES public?  Well, there are a LOT of people
    who read them... but how many do you KNOW, or SEE?  In truth, I
    only know less than a handfull of people here... and will see a
    great number at the party... but this note is written to my terminal,
    not to a human... like the ELIZA studies, notes seems to be a generic
    medium which allows a person to discuss problems without perceived
    fear (from XXXX where XXXX is the fear to discuss matters with another
    human face to face).                              
    
    WHY DO I BLEED HERE?  And yes I have... because it helped... It
    helped me to be able to express my pain instead of bottling inside...
    especially when that pain was so overwhelming (and interfering with
    my work)... it helped to have a forum at work to be able to do that...
    I did so without letting on who the other people were (no they are
    not other DIGITS) and tried to be accurate.  I have yet to be burned
    from any notes that I have posted.
    
    Hopefully when I expressed this pain, it helped another.  Helped
    them to know they were not alone, and helped by saying "I did this
    wrong, don't repeat my mistake".
    
    I know that when reading this notesfile, that I have been helped.
    It is nice to know that you are not alone, that there is hope to
    have a successfull loving relationship (like others have),  that
    your plight is not the worst... or that there are options.
    
    For those that have bled, for those that have helped, and to the
    moderators... thanx (vi-vant)
    
    dana
               

        Like so many other people here, I can only speak personally
    - I used this Conference because I had a problem *new* to me which
    I couldn't find my way out of. It took me a long time to be able
    to post my original note and the help I received was invaluable
    to me at the time and yes, it was a cheap form of counselling (not
    as available in the UK incidentally and I could not have waited
    that long !). My topic was "private" and very personal to me 
    (seperation/divorce) and I believed that people here would help
    me - and they DID ! In some ways my *audience* was ME and me alone
    - I wrote it out of myself in Notes and Mails and got some help
    and friendship along the way. I also discovered that I could help
    other people and that, in turn, helped me.
    
        Last night, during a conversation with a friend (also a DECcie),
    I resolved to drop out of Notes for a while, particularly this
    Conference, because I feel the time has come for me to stand on my own 
    two feet and face the World. 
    
        I used this Conference as a *Sanity Check* on my feelings and
    actions because I was *hurting* and angry and I now have regained
    my confidence and feel I can act in accordance with my own opinions - 
    that's what H_R did for me (and will still do, simply because I know
    it is here !).
        
        That's why I participate in this conference - I can't speak
    for others.
    
    be lucky,
    
    Steve
    
    

    Re: .24
    
    Steve, I would hope that you, and others, who no longer need the
    "help" of HUMAN_RELATIONS, will stay around to help others and
    to participate in the lively discussions.  I consider the healing
    aspects of this conference to only be a part of the whole.
    
    					Steve

    Some people, such as .0, prefer to keep all of their problems to
    themselves.  But, I have often found that merely by articulating
    my feelings, whether writing in notes, or a personal letter to a
    friend, or talking, I end up having a lot clearer idea of how I
    feel, why I was upset, etc.  Sometimes after talking, or writing,
    about a problem, the problem seems smaller to me.  Sometimes I make
    myself come to new conclusions just by formulating my thoughts.
     If I kept all of my painful feelings private I would have gone
    crazy years ago.
    
    Also, a little "bleeding" in this conference led to my S.O. and
    I getting back together after a 4 month break-up.  It may have bored,
    annoyed or offended some people, but it helped make my life happier.
    
    Lorna
    

     re .26:
     
     > Some people, such as .0, prefer to keep all of their problems to
     > themselves. 

     I saw nothing either in 311.0 or elsewhere that would lead me to such
     a conclusion; it seems both unwarranted and inappropriate.  Do you not
     see the difference between confiding in friends and posting a note for
     all of DIGITAL to see? 
     
     --Mr Topaz

    My Dear Mr. Topaz,
    
    The originator of .0, and myself, have exchanged mail on this topic.
     I am happy to say that he appears to have more of an understanding
    of what I was talking about than you do.  I now have a clearer idea
    of what he was talking about.  
    
    Yes, as a matter of fact, I do see the difference between something
    that I would consider too personal to put in an notesfile, and
    something that I would not.  For example, I have no intention of
    ever putting any of the particulars of my sex life - such as names,
    ages, and birthdates of partners.  However, if I feel that discussing
    a certain incident in my life might help someone else, I'll write
    it in.  Other people's notes have helped me.
    
    I think there are various levels of what people consider to be
    personal.  I do screen the things I write in notes.  There are things
    I will put in notes for anybody to see, things I will send in vaxmail
    to friends, things I will say on the phone to friends, and things
    I will say in person to only the closest friends.  There are also
    things that I will never say or write to anybody ever.  (Sorry for
    the overuse of the word things, I'm in a hurry.)  I think the reason
    that some people are puzzled over the personal things other people
    feel like putting in notes is that different people have different
    judgements of what they consider the levels of personal to be.
    
    Sincerely yours,
    
    Lorna St.Hilaire