Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    This says to me that:  The world sucks; those who recognize this
    are depressed.  Those with a less firm grasp on reality (or a
    prescriptive vision) manage to do the positive things in life.
    
    I'm only contented when I'm depressed. :-)
    
    Dave

    Psychology Today (a month or two ago) discussed this same thing.
    Similar research has been done with the same results previously.
    It looks like "creative denial" is the way to go folks.

    Re: .3, Bob
    
    		!!!!   Touche'   !!!!
    
    The real sad thing is those people who read such nonesense and believe
    it. Those are the people who have no sense of reality. (but it has
    to be true, it's in the news, and done by psychology big wigs).
    
    Barry

This is telling me what I have known all along: if one is realistic,
one can't help but notice what a lousy world we have chosen to live
in. However, most of us also realize that there is nothing we can do
about it, which leads to consolation, which, in turn, leads to
refusal to take anything seriously, which is almost like being
cheerful - just like the people who knew from nothing in the first
place. 

Two collaterals which comes to mind: 

o	You do not have an inferiority complex. You ARE inferior. 

o	Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not
	after you.

-- Ron

    Re .0:
    
    How depressing.... obligated :-)'s
    
    Mike

    o	If you can keep your head in the midst of all this confusion,
    	-- you must not know what's going on!
    
    o	Compare yourself compulsively with others, and you'll always
    	wind up on the short end of the stick -- that would depress
    	anybody!
    
    o	Unless you trust like a little child, you will not know
    	love. 
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

    Sounds to me like the people who decided what "reality" is are
    themselves depressed and are patting themselves on the back for their
    clever judgement. 
    
    One of the great problems philosophers have discussed for millennia is
    if there *is* an objective reality and if so, what is it. I'm certainly
    glad to know that these folks have solved it so that the rest of us can
    move on to weightier issues like truth, justice, and the nature of Art. 
    
    	Jon

	I think it's deluded to put people into catagories.  You can find 
	similarities in almost anything to prove a point, but it really 
	doesn't mean anything other than you're_focusing_on_similarities_
	in_order_to_prove_a_point.  It's just a narrow view and an attempt 
	to put something in a box so you can claim you understand it.  But
	all you understand is that narrow view.

	The questions I asked about this article were:

	> Depressed people have a more accurate view of reality than
	  happy people, 

        What is "accurate"?  What is reality?  WHO THE HELL KNOWS, anyway?

	> Sadder is wiser, 

	Oh, so is this saying that the many happy wise people and spiritual 
	leaders of various belief systems and cultures are more stupid than 
	someone who is depressed?  No, I think some of those happy people
	have just learned how to focus on the good things in life and get
	the best from it.  

	> challenge theories that depressed people suffer from a "learned 
          helplessness", 

	If you set out to prove the opposite of something, chances are, you
	can.  But how many other possibilities are there for understanding
	the mental accuracy of a depressed person?  Infinite.  Because it
	depends on the person.

	There are people who are unaware and happy.
		There are people who are happy and aware.
			There are people who are unaware and depressed.
	    There are people who are aware, but depressed.

	This article suggests to me that some people will do anything to 
	make up excuses for themselves and prove that the world is horrible.
	We blame our bad attitudes on other people, our jobs, our financial 
	status, our education, our location, our history, our future, and 
	the devil.  So now, someone is actually saying that being depressed 
	is WISER.  Oh, so THAT'S what it's good for!! ;^)

	Well then, while all of those wise depressed people are out killing 
	themselves and each other, and WORSENING world conditions (that they 
	are so wisely aware of), the stupid happy people will be enjoying 
	what they think are the good things and having a good time!

	Depression and happiness do not determine wisdom.

Jerri

    I am bothered by the fact that "scientific" studies like this are
    reported in very "unscientific" ways by newspapers trying to attract
    readers.  I am also bothered by the somewhat unscientific conclusions
    researchers allow to be drawn from very limited studies. 
    
    From what I have read of this study (limited I admit), it indicated
    that depressed people more readily recognize their own failures and
    shortcomings.  So what else is new?  It is not a new idea that denial
    helps us through hard times.  This does not mean that non-depressed
    people dont know as much about reality as depressed people.  Nor does
    it mean that there aren't some very realistic non-depressed people. 
                                  
    I would like to see a study that measured how both groups evaluated
    positive events, like being complemented perhaps.  I think this study
    used events like failing a test.
    
    How about a study to determine if depressed people as readily recognize
    opportunities for success as non-depressed people?  Of course this
    would be limited by the fact that depressed people sometimes eliminate
    the possiblity of success from their lives.  But then if depressed
    people always predict failure and it always results are they more
    realistic or just more limited? 
      
    Maybe I am selling this study short, but I seen reported results from
    so many onesided, underpopulated, inconclusive studies.  Where are
    the scientists involved who sould be telling us what this study does
    and doesnt mean based on its own limitations.
    
    Even worse, is that when these are reported on TV, in newspapers etc
    the focus is always on making the results sound as shocking and
    definitive as possible.  The headline for this story in the Indianapolis
    Star was a slightly subdued version of what the National Enquirer would
    have run. 
                    
    

    This study reminds me of my favorite cartoon -- the little engine
    that could steaming up the hill saying "I think I can, I think I
    can", never realizing that just over the crest, the track breaks
    and disappears into a bottomless chasm.
    
    My SO says I'm negative -- I say I'm realistic.  But I'm not
    depressed and not needlessly disappointed, either.

	which is how I can agree with Bob (.3) and .0 at the same
	time:-). Actually I thought of most of his points, but it
	still sounds like a plausible theory (if you replace
	"depressed" and "happy" with "pessimistic" and "optimistic").
	The thing that fascinated me about the conclusion, though, is
	that pessimistic people win both ways on the conclusion - they
	can get the satisfaction of knowing they really do know what's
	going on, plus the downer of realizing that knowing does them
	more harm than good! Meanwhile, the optimists only get the
	positive side of being better off, but an optimist needs less
	positives to feel they've come out ahead. Everybody wins with
	this theory:-)!
	
	The source of my pessimism and cynicism, I think, is a
	lifetime as a Red Sox fan. Would anyone disagree that for them
	pessimism is a better reflection of reality?
	
	I've always felt that it was better to be pessimistic than
	optimistic, because any surprises a pessimist gets are likely
	to be more positive than the surprises an optimist gets.
	Witness the Red Sox last year... The surprises the pessimists
	got were the division and league championship. The surprise
	the optimists got was Game 6. I'll spare any RED_SOX noters
	out there from turning me in on charges of hypocrisy - last
	season I turned into an optimist in June and stayed that way
	until Stanley's wild pitch... Just another reason for me to
	stay a pessimist!
	
	Mike

    >Depression and happiness do not determine wisdom.
    
    I'm sorry, I forget which reply that came from.  I believe the opposite
    is true - wisdom DOES determine happiness or depression.
    
    The most common factor in depression is the helplessness - the loss
    of control.  If you are wise, you can recognize that factor in your 
    depression and then choose to let it eat away at you or not.
    
    Is depression the result of recognizing the grim realities or is it
    the result of plodding along optimistically and being hit with the
    grim realities time and time again?
    
    There's a blurring here of pessimism and depression.  I've always
    felt, (like the Red Sox fan!), that only pessimists can be pleasantly
    surprised.  On a scale of naive to cynical, which would you rather
    be?   
    
    At what point does the study stop in the person's thought process to 
    determine their state of happiness or depression?  Consider the following:
    
    I have a second interview for the job of a lifetime.  I'm female and
    competing against 3 males.  I go to the interview and give it
    my best shot but I doubt very much I'll win the job when they have
    three males to choose from.  That's pessimism, but am I "depressed"?
    
    If I lose out, well, I knew I would anyway and I knew why so life just 
    goes on and anyway, I have another interview tomorrow.  Is that depression?
    
    Conversely, if I were optimistic and THEN lost out, I'd be stopped
    pretty short.  Maybe I'd go over and over all the details wondering
    where I went wrong.  My credentials?  My hair?  Could I be ready
    for an interview the next day with a positive, upbeat attitude?
    Would I be "depressed"?
    
    Don't make the mistake that a depressed person is a pessimist with
    constant hand-wringing and an "oh-woe-is-me" attitude.  Perhaps
    the study first gave its definition of a depressed person.  That's
    a pretty important point.
    
    How many times must a person get knocked down before they stop trying?
    Is the person who stops early and says, "forget this" more or less
    depressed than the person who continually offers him or herself
    up willingly for what continues to be failure?
                                                     
    If depression is a feeling of a lack of control, then the knowledge and
    understanding of that lack can be enough of a feeling of control to
    handle it.  I'm not a head-in-the-sand person and I get my share
    of the blues over the sad state of this world but I'm not shocked
    when I find out our president feels he's above the law, when I lose
    out on a job to a less-qualified male, (it's happened more than
    once!), when the draize test is still administered daily to hundreds
    of little rabbits and women in remote parts of India are still not
    allowed to go to school and then are considered a curse when they
    are born because they can bring no money to the family.
    
    My knowledge is my protection against the depression that would
    surely surround me were I a happy little person expecting things
    to be fair and right and then finding out slowly what's really going
    on.  Ignorance is bliss?  You bet!  But no matter how happy "ignorant"
    people are, I cannot be that kind of person.  Give me the truth and prepare
    me for the world as it is and I'll take care of myself and I'll make
    myself as happy as I can in spite of it.  Is that depressed,
    pessimistic, realistic?  Dare I say happy?

    One mistaken assumption of the original study is that the degrees of
    optimism and pessimism constitute a spectrum of attitudes when in fact
    it's much broader than that. 
    
    For the sake of argument, let's accept the premise that optimism equals
    naivete (sorry, my old VT1xx doesn't make fancy characters) and cynicsm
    equals pessimism.  It's true that there is a scale from naive to
    cynical, but the most starry-eyed naive young thing (of either sex) and
    the most hardened, cynical, world-weary person about town have one
    thing in common: they all believe in the same basic set of unchallenged
    assumptions. 
    
    The innocent believes that romantic love will conquer all. The cynic
    has been around enough to know that lack of money and in-law conflicts
    can kill almost any romance. Neither stops to think that maybe the
    conventions of what this society calls love might be wrong. 
    
    The innocent believes in the Golden rule -- if you do the right thing,
    the good will win in the end.  The cynic believes in the golden rule,
    too: them that has the gold, makes the rules.  Neither of them thinks
    about taking a good look at the society that produced rules to see
    whether they can, or should, try to change it or themselves.  

    When you can step back from your reactions to look at the assumptions
    underlying the problem, you can begin to realistically assess the
    situation and determine what you can do about it.  The cynic and the
    innocent are equally helpless in the face of the kind of situation
    described in .15. The innocent is going to be stunned when she doesn't
    get the job and the cynic is going to say "I knew those sexists
    wouldn't give the job to a woman," and they're both going to be
    miserable. 
    
    The person who can step back from the situation can see that the
    prejudices of society mitigate against her getting the job in those
    circumstances.  But she can also see that SHE can influence her
    own success or failure.  She can practice for the interview, present
    herself in her best light, and so on.  Then, if she doesn't get
    the job, she's not going to be crushed.

    I always liked the saying my grandmother passed on:  Hope for the
    best but plan for the worst. 
    
    If you plan for the worst, you can be prepared to cope with it if
    it happens.  If you didn't even think about it, you're likely to
    be crushed.
    
    --bonnie, overgeneralizing again

	Re .0

	I challenge the statement that "depressed people a have more
accurate view of reality ..". They are likely to have too dark a view
to a point of possible being suicidal. If a gourmet meal is prepared
that is enjoyed by all but the depressed person, that means the meal
is really more likely lousey? The depressed person more likley finds
the darkness on the most cheerfull day. Is this reality?? It also seems
that cheerfullness is analogous to naive. Well maybe the cheerfull
person tells him/her self a little white lie and is able to get from
life punches - is that naive?
	end of opinion

RE: .17

>	I challenge the statement that "depressed people a have more
>	accurate view of reality ..".

Actually, this false statement will become true if you invert it:
"people that have a more accurate view of reality are [bound to be]
depressed". 

-- Ron

	I find the study in .0 interesting because I am one of those
	people who works hard to keep as clear a picture of reality
	as possible (That's one of the reasons I read this file).
	The idea is that if I don't maintain this close connection
	and allow myself to operate under an illusion, then I will
	somehow fail to cope.  Somehow I think that I need the
	the clear view to function.

	What the study seems to say is that if you maintain too	
	close a connection to reality that you will lose more
	because of the depression than you will gain from having
	a clear view of the world. 

	And yet, here I am trying to make sure I have a clear understanding
	of depression as revealed in .0 ... what am I doing?

						MJC

    No, no, no!  I just don't believe that things are so bad that if
    we see them "clearly" we'll become depressed.  C'MON!  We made
    this world what it is.  It was beautiful and it still is...it 
    just has lots of man-made garbage laying around.  But if we can
    make the garbage, we can stop making more, and we can remove the 
    garbage from the past eventually.

    The article in the base note is just another way of saying we
    are helpless and at the mercy of the cold cruel world.  The world
    is not cold and cruel without us.  We are the problem, we help 
    create this reality, and we get depressed over it.  So, stop 
    creating depressing realities.

    True, there are lots of things in this world that seem to be out of
    our hands...but being depressed about them is a choice, and it 
    doesn't accomplish anything.  If this world had already reached a
    hopeless condition, it would not be existing.  It is existing, so
    there's still hope of getting something out of it...and also giving
    something back.  You can only take away from something for so long
    before it collapses...and we've been taking for a very long time.  
    Now we're getting depressed that things are starting to sag.  What 
    do we expect?  That's just the way things work.

    I'm not sure that we can control everything, but I do think we can
    control a lot.  That knowledge alone should be enough to inspire us
    to keep happily looking for ways to create better experiences for
    ourselves and others.  You've probably heard, "If someone gives you
    lemons, make lemonade!"  When we can stop crying about the sad
    conditions of this world, and accept that those conditions are there, 
    and maybe we can fix them if we try, and we can certainly enjoy, and 
    be wise with, what's LEFT, then we can get a lot more out of life.

    No use crying over spilt milk...clean it up!

    I think wisdom is relative.  You don't have to be "this way" or "that"
    to be wise...
    	          it's just what you do with what you've got.
        
    Thanks for listening,

    Jerri

    RE: .0
    
    Sounds to me like it should be changed to:
    
    	Depressed people have a more depressing view of reality than
    	happy people.
    
    Kak

    re: .0 - garbage. 
    
    First of all, the Phoenix article and most of the responses are
    mis-using the word "depression". Depression is a clinical condition
    which is a lot more extreme than the ordinary feelings of sadness
    most of us feel from time to time. Anyone who's spent time in
    a psych ward and observed people suffering from major depression
    will tell you that major depression is often (not always) associated with
    delusional thinking. Many depressed people have a very warped
    view of the world.
        
    Also, it is a mistake to generalize about depression because it
    is not a single illness. Depression can be caused by many
    physical illnesses, by schizophrenia (which is a physical brain disease),
    by drug abuse, by traumatic events, or in many cases, is
    of unknown cause. It is therefore a mistake to start any sentence
    with "Depressed people ..." since you are actually talking about
    such a wide range of people and a wide range of illnesses.
    
    	- Rich

    What is reality... but a collective hunch !
    
    
    jacki