Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I'd answer, but I don't care what you think.


    

    Steve - 
    
    Extrovertism... It's not just a job, it's an adventure !
    
    First, I might say that, in a way, your personal name is significant
    in one respect here;  Getting there should be the fun part.  You
    know, "it's not the destination, but what you encounter on the journey
    that makes it all worthwhile."  Yes, that's a paraphrase, and I know
    the context of your personal name [Keep the faith!], but I really
    feel that you've gotta have fun along the way.
    
    Some who know me might feel that I'm well-qualified to reply to
    your note, and I could only hope that my opinion helps you a least
    a little bit.  For a little background, I'm 30 (this month!), have
    rather long hair (though well-kept) and an earring (left ear.)
    That's all bound to draw some sort of flak from the more conservative
    people.
    
    And I like to have fun !!  Using humor, I tend to find levity in
    almost any situation, regardless of the pressure and present company.
    I don't have very much money saved up, and even less in the way
    of investments.  I live in a small but clean apartment that is 
    loaded with my "toys", like scuba, rock-climbing, camping, and
    sky-diving gear.   [Now you know where my money is !]
    
    Now, to the point.  I know what you're talking about.  I constantly
    get 'slammed' for my behaviour, and yet that behaviour is all in
    good fun and *never* hurts anyone.  I like to joke, climb up and
    dance on the tables to Mony-Mony, turn around in elevators and look
    at all the people facing forward, ... well, let's just say that
    I thrive on doing the unexpected.
    
    But I often get comments like "I don't know you!", or "When are
    you going to settle down?!", or "If you were a little more conven-
    tional, you might get farther..." and the like.
    
    And sometimes I wonder if all that is true.  But take it from the
    source... that's *their* idea of what is right and wrong and doesn't
    neccessarily work for *me*.  Indeed, I couldn't abide by myself if
    I did all of the things that constitute "normal" behaviour in an
    professional person.
    
    So, how do I live with it ?
    
       I remind myself that everyone is different.  That they all have
       their opinions.  That if they want to play golf on Sunday after
       mowing the lawn on Saturday, that's fine... AS LONG AS THEY ARE
       HAPPY DOING IT !
    
       Most importantly, though, I have had to understand that, at least
       in this environment, if someone does something even a little bit
       out of the norm, they will get talked about or pointed at.  But,
       again, I've learned not to mind, 'cause everyone is going to
       have their opinions, and they will not necessarily match mine.  
    
    So, Why do I live with it ?
    
       Because I'm having fun, nay, the time of my life !  I'm doing
       what makes *me* happy.  And, to be sure, I'm not hurting anyone;{  not me, not my parents, not my friends or co-workers.  As far
       as I can tell, no one suffers from any of my actions.
    
       But, if you abandon inhibitions, you'll be surprised at the things
       you can do (and get away with  8^) )  Next time you hear your
       favorite "get-down" song, and you're in the mood, why don't you
       just start dancin' ?  Don't worry about what the people around
       you might think... it's your body and you should be able to move
       it around as you please !
    
       Why ?  You can have fun !  You can have fun raising some eyebrows.
       You'll meet new people, new friends.  Indeed, oftimes if a person
       sees an 'extrovert', they will find them approachable, 'cause
       they'll know something unusual might happen.  
       But most importantly, you'll be doing what *you* want to do !
    
So, how do I deal with the comments ?
    
       Easy, whatever they say works for them, it doesn't work for me.
       As you go through life, and meet all those people out there,
       you'll find that *everyone* has opinions, and *everyone* has
       a picture of what is right and wrong, and those that tell me
       that I'm wrong to behave a certain way are thereby trying to
       impose *their* viewpoints on *me*.
    
       And when that happens, I just smile at them and say nothing.
       (Frustrates the beejeezuz out of 'em if they expect a defense!)
       See?  That, alone, is fun to watch !
    
    Two Caveats, though...
    
       - My credo is "Do what you want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone"
         and might add that that is emotionally as well as physically. Be
         sensitive to the situation, the surroundings, and others'
         feelings. 
    
       - And watch decorum. Certain situations demand it.  I love to
         dance, but I would never hop a table in a meeting with K.O.!
         Indeed, in most professional situations, I play the part. The
         time to wail could well come later !
    
    So, how do you get started ?
    
       I'll leave most of that to the input from other noters, but herein
       I offer a few (possibly somewhat lame...) ideas :
    
       - Say something funny or controversial in a notesfile.  If you
         get slammed, realize that everyone has their opinions.
       - If you're at a party where everyone is having a good time,
         grab a brew, put something unusual on, and dance with someone.
         Dancin' is great... it's a celebration of life !
       - If you ride a bus or train to work, try humming your favorite
         tune without regard to who might hear.  Work your way up to
         singing quietly, almost inaudibly.  Maybe, soon, you won't
         feel odd about singing a tune that caught your ear.  (Again,
         though, don't disturb that guy reading his newspaper...)
       - If you see someone that you think you might want to meet,
         don't worry about what they might say or do, and don't think
         about a "good opening line".  Just walk up and say "Hi!" and
         take it from there.  Most everyone, if given the chance, will
         want to talk to you.  And they'll respect your initiative.
         You'll also find that any nervousness will last only about
         30 seconds !
       - Go to your favourite club, get a seat at the bar, but don't
         forget the M&M's or JellyBeans.  Offer them to someone, or
         better yet, offer them to a group standing nearby.  Most will
         accept, and that provides a good ice-breaker. (Put the goodies
         in a little glass dish or something, looks classy.)
    
    I could go on, but I fear that I already have... too much.  And
    for those that wonder where all this came from, please realize that
    the base note struck a bit of a nerve with me.  You see, at one
    time, I was an *extreme* introvert, and I didn't like it very much.
    I am still, at many times, a *very* private (introverted) person,
    but it is much better to walk both worlds, calling upon one trait
    or the other as needs or wishes dictate.  I can safely say that
    being able to call up both has made me about the happiest person
    around.  I *never* have a bad time !  (Not if *I* can help it)
    And more often than not, it lifts the spirits of those around you.
    
    You see, I don't quite know what the future holds for me, but I'm
    having a helluva time finding out... It's not the destination, it's
    the journey that counts.  What I want... what I want more than any-
    thing is to say to myself, when I finally check out of this hotel,
    "I wouldn't have done it *any* other way !  And I had a Ball !"
    
    Enjoy !  And keep 'em talkin' !
    
    Bob "Dancin'" Hanson
    
    
    
    

Right on, Bob!

I have to "play (and look) the part" all the time I'm at work, so
I can't dance on tables, but I feel badly for some people I have
worked with who take things so seriously that they never seem to
be happy. 

Bruce Graves

    
    re: .3 
    
    I know the gentleman and can attest to his philosophy of life.
    Base noter, if you need a mentor, Bob's the one!
    
    BTW, good stuff, Bob.
    
    Vicki

    
    Thanks, everyone, for the vote of confidence on my reply. I suppose
    that some people, somewhere, might have thought it a bit radical,
    but, in light of the discussion, I can safely say that the only
    thing that ensured that I *would* enter the reply is exactly the
    attitude that we've been talking about.  See, sometimes I can
    vascillate a bit on this matter, for I say what I feel, and yet
    I often tend to seek the approval of others.  (Be that as it may,
    I simply, in this case, didn't want to seem too overbearing.)
    
    And, Steve, I'd like to add a little something to the previous reply:
    
    It doesn't take 'guts', and neither does it matter just exactly
    how The Attitude manifests itself in people.  You don't have to
    sing to yourself (or others...), you don't have to dance on tables,
    and you don't have to go around being a witty-guy all the time.
    No, you don't have to do anything at all !
    
    The trick here is to ENJOY yourself, in any situation, in every
    endeavor, be it professional, personal, or social.  If you can
    see a bright side to every situation no matter how bleak it may
    seem on the outside, if you can strive to turn badness to goodness,
    or if you can bring just a little ray of sunshine to someone else's
    life in any given day, then you can assure yourself that you've
    done some good... and for that, you can be thankful and appreciate
    *yourself*.  And funny enough, all it often takes is a smile  8^)
    
    I have a theory, and it applies to life, love, and liberty.  That
    is : If you can become happy with yourself, then it just comes 
    naturally that you can turn some of that happiness out to other
    people... it just sort of overflows.  It's simply happiness turned
    outward, and that is, more often than not, why an "extrovert" is
    seen as an extrovert.
    
    Another principle is that for every bad thing that happens, some-
    thing good happens too, and it's funny how I've seen a perfect
    balance between the two.  Oh, sure, sometimes it all seems bad,
    and sometimes it all seems too good to be true, but if you realize
    this principle, you can begin to see that no matter how bad things
    get at any given time, it *will* get better, you *will* feel better,
    and everything will work out in the long run.
    
    So, again, you don't have to act like an party-animal, or be the
    one with the best joke, or even be the center of attention.  All
    you have to do is smile, keep the faith that goodness will be 
    forthcoming, knock off your goals one-by-one, and try to make
    someone smile *today*, and before long, youll be so insanely
    happy with yourself that it's just natural to let someone else
    in on it !
    
    Before you know it, you'll be doing something (argh!) "stupid"
    like dancing on a subway (oh, ok, just tap your foot for now!)
    
    Try this... go up to someone you see today and say "Hi ! How're
    you doing ?", but don't walk away at first.  See if you can get
    a brief chit-chat going.  I guarantee that that person will rem-
    ember you.  And it doesn't matter whether they thought it nice,
    or thought you were a lunatic... the fact of the matter remains
    that you tried, and for that, you can feel just a little bit
    better.
    
    Enjoy yourself... It's our #1 priority !
    And I look forward to talking again with our new friends here !
    
    "Dancin' Hanson"
    

    I don't know about being an extrovert.... I can party with the best
    of them (kinda-sorta), and when I had my Meyers-Briggs personally
    done, I was an ISTJ  (Introvert, Sensing, Thinking, Judging) person.
    It turns out that that personality type is the cornerstone of a
    business.  I tended to agree with what it said, and also agreed
    that I was EXACTLY like what the personality type was supposed to
    be....  Being an introvert isn't so bad.....
    
    Gale

    re: .0,.7
    
        In placing this note, it was not my intention to imply that
    being an extrovert has any advantage over being an introvert or
    that one lifestyle is better than the other - I am interested in
    changing and how that change process could possibly work (particularly
    for me as once I get involved in something I sometimes get carried
    away).
    
        I have been living as a "happy introvert" for as long as I can
    remember - I just wanted to try something new. I feel like I would
    like to experience life as a "happy extrovert" for a while to see
    which way I am happiest. 
    
    be happy,
    
    Steve
         

    Re .7, also all introverts are not always serious and all introverts
    are not conservatives.  Some introverts have even danced to Mony
    Mony!
    
    But, if .0 feels like he's missing out on something, then he probably
    is.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Hmmmm...
    
    You know, Steve, last night I had entered a .8 reply in here with
    something to the effect :
    
       "Fine, .7, if being an introvert works for *you*, and you're
        happy with it, then more power to you !  But herein, we are
        talking about What_If one wanted to "change", what would you
        suggest as a good starting point."
    
    On the advice of a good friend of mine, though, I clobbered the
    reply for fear of beating horses.  Your .8 seems to say basically
    the same thing that I had written, but I'm sure we're all rather
    glad to hear it from you personally.
    
    So, without any further ado (which is the only French I know...)
    I hereby pose the question :   [Not Shouting...]
    
    "IF YOU, OR SOMEONE YOU KNEW, WANTED TO BECOME AN "EXTROVERT" IN
     THE SENSE THAT HAS BEEN APPLIED HERE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO OR SUGGEST
     AS A STARTING POINT ?"
    
    Be it seen as simple or bizarre, it might be interesting to hear
    what others in the conference have for suggestions.  And who knows,
    perhaps it'll give me some good material !  8^)
    
    BTW - Let's rule out things like "encounter groups" or "counseling".
          Not that they don't serve a purpose, but the intent here might
          be to hear about actions that some might deem as "extroverted"
    
    GO FOR IT !
    Dancin' Hanson
    
    

    Hi Steve!
    
    Sounds like you're discovering what I did--too much of anything
    makes you want to look at the other side.  After years of being
    extremely introverted (self-absorbed, self-conscious, and selfish),
    I found as I got older that I didn't need or want to be that way
    ALL the time.  Gradually I opened up, tried new things, etc. and
    found a happy medium.  It's the old pendulum-swing deal--first you
    go all one way, then all the other;  and THEN you hit a point where
    you're comfortable with yourself and the world around you.  (Not
    that you won't surprise yourself from time to time!)  As "Dancin,"
    wisely says, there IS a time and place for everything!  However,
    let your hair down sometimes, too--it's good for you AND your hair!
    Most of us are so concerned with how WE look, act, come across,
    and whatever that it doesn't matter a whole lot what the other person
    does.  I've gotten to a place in my life where I thoroughly enjoy
    my peculiar lifestyle--one of my favorite things is to put together
    some unusual outfits.  It makes my day just to see *that* look on
    peoples' faces!!
    
    Start easy, and be honest with yourself.  Don't swing on somebody's
    chandelier, brandishing a strawberry colada in one hand because
    you think that's what the "wild and crazy" guys are doing.  (Actually
    the W&C G's are doing it with a strawberry daiquiri) Have fun, and
    keep your mind open.
    
    Best of luck--life's gREAT!
    
    Jane 

Re: -1 I don't think "Introverts" are selfish people - I know I'm not 
and never will be... but lets look at some different types in the work 
area.

I think you also need the other 3 aspects of the personality before you are 
going to change.... so I am going to include those effects also...

The main thing is the difference in people that result from the way you 
like to be perceive and the way they like to judge...



		EFFECTS OF EACH PREFERENCE IN WORK SITUATIONS


	EXTRAVERTS				INTROVERTS
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like variety and action			Like quiet for concentration

Tend to be faster, dislike 		Tend to be careful with
complicated procedures			details, dislike sweeping
					statements

Are often good at meeting people	Have trouble remembering
					names and faces

Are often impatient with long		Tend not to mind working
slow jobs				on one project for a long
					time uninterruptedly

Are interested in results of 		Are interested in the
their job, in getting it done and 	idea behind their job
in how other people do it

Often do not mind the 			Dislike telephone
interruption of answering 		intrusions and
the phone				interruptions

Often act quickly, sometimes		Like to think alot
without thinking			before they act,
					sometimes without acting

Like to have people around		Work contentedly alone

Usually communicate freely		Have problems communicating

--------------------------------------------------------------------

	THINKING				FEELING
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Do not show emotion readily		Tend to be very aware of
and are often uncomfortable		other people and their
with people's feelings			feeling

May hurt people's feelings without	Enjoy pleasing people, even in
knowing it				unimportant things

Like analysis and putting things	Like Harmony.  Efficiency may be
into logical order.  Can get along	badly disturbed by office fueds
without harmony

Tend to decide impersonally, 		Often let decisions be
sometimes paying insufficient 		influenced by their own or
attention to peoples wishes		other people's personal likes
					and wishes

Need to be treated fairly		Need occasional praise

Are able to reprimand people 		Dislike telling people unpleasant
or fire then when necessary		things

Are more analytically oriented 		Are more people-oriented --
-- respond more easily to		respond more easily to
people's thoughts			people's values

Tend to be firm-minded			Tend to be sympathetic

---------------------------------------------------------------------
	
	SENSING					INTUITIVE
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dislike new problems unless 		Like solving new problems
there are standard ways to 
solve them

Like an established way of doing 	Dislike doing the same thing
things					repeatedly

Enjoy using skills already learned	Enjoy learning a new skill more
more than learning new ones		than using it

Work more steadily, with realistic 	Work in bursts of energy powered
idea of how long it will take		by enthusiasm, with slack periods
					in between

Usually reach a conclusion step 	Reach a conclusion quickly
by step

Are patient with routine details	Are impatient with routine details

Are impatient when the details		Are patient with complicated
get complicated				situations

Aren't often inspired, and rarely 	Follow their inspirations, good or
trust the inspiration when they are	bad

Seldom make errors of fact		Frequently make errors of fact

Tend to be good at precise work		Dislike taking time for precision
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

	JUDGING					PERCEPTIVE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Work best when they can plan their	Adapt well to changing situations
work and follow the plan

Like to get things settled and		Do not mind leaving things open
finished				for alterations

May decide things too quickly		May have trouble making decisions

may dislike to interrupt the		May start too many projects and
project they are on for a more 		have difficulty in finishing them
urgent one

May not notice new things that need	May postpone unpleasant jobs
to be done

Wantonly the essentials needed to	Want to know all about a new job
begin their work

Tend to be satisfied once they		Tend to be curious and welcome new
reach a judgment on a thing,		light on a thing, situation, or
situation, or person			person
-------------------------------------------------------------------

    WELL steve letme tell you it is all in your heart. you just don't
    give a sh__. what other people think is really not your problem.
    dancin hanson knows what he is talking about, you just start shaking
    it and all of the sudden everyone around you is doing the same thing.
    just having a good time. and believe me that is what it is all about.
    life is just to short to be BORING. of course don't feel bad if
    you get thrown out of a few places, that comes with the territory
    of being a wild and crazy guy. my friends tell me i might be a little
    to much out of control but they always seem to have a goood time
    also. gator at a bar is a good way to make friends, everytime i
    do it i get a standing ovation, and the crowd will go crazy. or
    rip your shirt in a crowd and they will throw money to you, so you
    can drink for free. you won't have to ask to dance, the rest of
    the night because, they come up to you and ask you to dance. for
    every person that thinks you are wierd, there are three people that
    want to party with you, because they know you are capable of doing
    anything at anytime, which makes things more exciting. i feel happy
    hour should last all night.(don't you) i might not be right about
    my feelings but boy do i have a hell of a fun time when i go out.
    we were put on this earth to live our life to the fullest, and i
    do it everynight. so don't be afraid just be wild and crazy, and
    do what makes you happy for no one else will. by the way the earing
    does help and do keep it in the left ear.
    
                              terry(never forgot)scott
                                       or
                              happily hungover

    
    Re> .13  HEY TERRY... LET'S PAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRTYYYYYYYYYYY !
             If 'Gator' gets you the standing O, I bet that together
             we could drink free for life !  And don't worry, it is
             and will always be the left ear !!!
    
    Re> .12
                              
    ~/~ and baby-flame-on
    
    I tried to resist replying to this one, then I did, but got
    clobbered off the net... Then I reconsidered, and here I am.
    
    I don't see how this relates to "How does one get started...",
    and furthermore, would like to stress that the keywords for that
    list are "Tends to be...", "Some are...", and the like.
    (BTW - That list looks awfully familiar ?  Where was that from?)
    
    Unless I just didn't get the drift, I found it a gross general-
    ization and would put about as much faith in it as I would my
    daily horoscope.  First I was on the left column, then the right,
    then the left again.  Does that mean I'm an Intro/Extro ?  Schizo?
    If I was on the left side of the list and wanted to get to the
    right, does that mean that I have to think instead of act, or
    be sensitive instead of insensitive ?  Again, tendencies maybe,
    but personally, I hate to be categorized.
    
    To beat my point to death, though, it doesn't matter how you
    "are perceived" in business, or how you should conduct yourself
    in this (categorized) business environment, the point is to make
    oneself happy and cheerfully flip the bird at those who would tell
    you how to behave !
    
    By submitting that list, it seems you're trying to tell me what
    kind of a personality I am, should be, or am perceived to be.
    ... Well, if it works for you... fine.  Myself, I'm gonna go do
    the Gator with Terry, thank you !
    
    <baby-flame-off>
    
    Bob "Baby-Flame 'cause I simply can't get mad about
         something like That !"
    Hanson
    
    

    Well, I did something of this myself.  I'm kind-of introverted if
    I act as my instincts tell me to act, but most folks don't think
    of me as introverted (right folks?).  The things I have had to
    train myself to do include:
    	1) Look at people, not the floor.  SMILE.  it makes a really
    big difference.  Say hello to folks - start with the ones you see
    every day but don't know, and progress to complete strangers.
    Don't think you've got to do a 180 degree turn.  Start with
    little things like this - they'll become second nature in time.
    	2) Think of some of those fun, extroverted activities as
    good deeds you're doing to entertain other folks.  It works for
    me when I've got stage fright - puts me in my selfless mode instead
    of my self-focussed mode.  It even works for me when I'm feeling
    like I can't compete with someone else in the group I'm in - I
    just think of myself as contributing to everyone's fun time and,
    look at that!  I end up having a blast!
    	3) Don't be a snob.  This one is going to be hard for me to
    explain without waving my hands around (terminals are sometimes
    inadequate) - bear with me.  Sometimes it's hard to be extroverted
    with the people who are already extroverted and having fun - you
    feel like you can't "break in".  You don't have to - you can make
    your own group of the folks that DON'T look like they're currently
    having a blast - don't ignore them thinking they must be crushing
    bores.
    	4) have COURAGE!  People don't bite.  People don't really
    disapprove of many of the things you might hesitate to do - they
    may wish they had the courage to do them themselves.
    	5) have good JUDGEMENT.  That helps you figure out what's
    good fun and what's obnoxious.
    	6) Eat those Powder Milk Biscuits - gives shy people the courage
    to Go Out and Do the things that Need To Be Done....
    
    --Louise
    

Re: jumping from one part of the chart to another
    	(unless you are a frog :-)...)
    	
The reason you jumped all over is because there is not just one category 
for the whole exercise.....  Each type has a description that I could
have typed in also...  I just didn't have the time, maybe over the
weekends, I could do one or two at a time, so that everyone could see
what each of the types are, and some of the goods and bads of each.
    
However:
    
There are actually 16 different types:

ISTJ - Introverted Sensing with Thinking
ISFJ - Introverted Sensing with Feeling
ISTP - Introverted Thinking with Sensing
ISFP - Introverted Feeling with Sensing

INFJ - Introverted Intuition with Feeling
INTJ - Introverted Intuition with Thinking 
INFP - Introverted Feeling with Intuition 
INTP - Introverted Thinking with Intuition 

ESTP - Extraverted Sensing with Thinking
ESFJ - Extraverted Sensing with Feeling
ESTJ - Extraverted Thinking with Sensing
ESFP - Extraverted Feeling with Sensing

ENFJ - Extraverted Intuition with Feeling
ENTJ - Extraverted Intuition with Thinking 
ENFP - Extraverted Feeling with Intuition 
ENTP - Extraverted Thinking with Intuition 

So as you see you can interchange...  I posted the findings from "ISABEL 
BRIGGS MYERS - INTRODUCTION TO TYPE" because if you are going to change, 
as .0 asked, I think you need to go more in depth as to what are you changing, 
why are you changing, what are you wanting to gain from the change... If 
you change one portion without changing another, it might be right for 
you, but it might not either...  I think you need the whole picture.
Some people are not sure what they do prefer, or they disown their real 
preference for fear they ought to prefer the opposite.  If .0 want to 
change, I wish him luck... maybe the charts will help a little....  if you 
want to party, I wish you luck too.

Gale

    
    Gale - 
    
    Thanks for the clarification, and your point is well-taken.
    
    
    Rib-itt, Rib-itt
    
    8^)
    

    
    The quiet with the loud;
    the intro with the extro,
    the private with the public.
    
    You have to find your own point of balance.
    
    
    MM
     

    Hi Steve,
    
    There are lots of good ideas and insights to your note so far.
    Aren't people great???!!!  They come through when you need them,
    they really do!  And if they don't, it's probably because we're
    not letting them.  But anyway, the only thing I'd like to add to
    all of these other great replies is:
    
    Be patient with yourself.  It's really wonderful that you want to
    try something different.  Man, that's what life is for, in my
    opinion!  Experiment, climb, fly, fall down, and always be
    forgiving when you don't think you did well enough.  You'll get
    what you want...I'm sure of that.  Just decide that you're going
    to do it...that it's going to be easy...and it will happen real
    quick!  And it will!  
    
    Best of success to you!

    Jerri  "Dancin' in the dew"