Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Don't feel so badly about being obese.  We control our lives a lot
    more than we realize you know.  When I got divorced I weighed 115
    pounds.  Many of my ex-husbands friends and some of my (married)
    neighbors suddenly started "stopping by".  Men will do almost anything
    for you if you look good and I started taking advantage of it. 
    
    Well, I really got disgusted with myself.  I didn't like the way
    I was acting or the way I was treating people.  So I started eating
    again.  I am one of those people whoes weight fluctuates dramatically
    anyway.  I thought that if I gained weight I would be forced to
    deal with myself as a person and I wouldn't be able to hide behind
    the image other people had of me.  Well, it worked and it didn't.
    
    I did, from necessity, have to come to terms with myself and with what
    I wanted from life.  I learned that I can take care of myself when
    I have to, as well as my children.  I learned how helpless we can
    fell in this world.  And I learned that diamond bright minds and
    unique hearts can lurk in the strangest of bodies.
             
    Now gaining and losing is not nearly as easy as it used to be but
    I'm bored with being the way I am and I'm now ready to face my "other
    self".  So I'm losing again.  It took me about a year just to get
    mentally adjusted.  I had a choice of accepting myself the way I
    was or changing.  There are some things we can't change of course
    but this is one that I could. 
    
    If you are one of those people who have a very hard time losing
    weight...Lilly pharmaceutical will soon be marketing a drug called
    Fluoxitine.  It increases the serotonin level in the brain (the
    brain's chemical messenger) and seems to make people lose weight
    ..almost without trying.  It works on the premise that some people
    have a chemical imbalance in the brain that triggers cycles of 
    binging.  I took part in the drug testing program for the FDA. :-)
    

    I usually dislike in others the things I am most afraid of in myself.
    It is safer for me to dislike the gluttony in myself if I project
    it into you.  Your obesity may not be related to gluttony, but it
    is still a good place for me to project the parts of myself that
    I am not willing to acknowledge.  Personally, I am turned off by
    the obsessive behavior exhibited by "thin" people.

    re: .3
    
>                                      Personally, I am turned off by
>    the obsessive behavior exhibited by "thin" people.
    
    What behavior are you referring to?

    Sounds to me like you have a lot more going for you than not!  IF
    obesity is the only negative thing you can say about yourself, you
    are doing very well.  Personally, I think everyone (ESPECIALLY the
    media, fashion mags, etc.) makes too big a deal out of the "female
    ideal".  Makes me want to do ANYTHING to be different!!  I would
    examine my friendships--those who really care for you ought to be
    able to see the "you", and not the obesity.
    
    ..and God bless you for cleaning your home once a week!  I admire
    that!
    
    Jane

    There is another side to every coin.
    On that other side is slim which can be a turn off too.
    I'm 6'2" and weigh only 135 which is very skinny for a man I have
    tryed to gain weight since high school and havent been able to.
    I have been told by some of my former dates that was too skinny
    and I take that as a turn-off. You want funny looks go to a doctor
    and tell him you want to gain weight and cant he wont know what
    to say mine dident.
    My problem is that it is hard to find clothes that will fit length
    wise and not have room for someone else to join in.
    Try to buy 40" inseam with a 29" waist in anything besides blue
    jeans it is real fun.
    
    -j
    Sorry to stray from the original topic....
    

    So many people say "so lose weight".  Notwithstanding the recent
    research in .01, but in 1980 and again in 1985 I did an intense
    review of literature in the treatment of obesity.  This included
    over 100 state of the art studies-and what was the result-
    
    NO LONG TERM TREATMENT EFFECTS
    
    The only researcher that found any long term treatments, Stunkard,
    was unable to duplicate his results.
    
    People look at the fat person as lazy, or unmotivated, but in fact,
    statistically, the only factor in if you'll be fat is the number
    of fat cells in your body.  When a fat person becomes thin, they
    have just as many fat cells, they just have less fat in them, and
    those fat cells are biologically begging to reach their optimal
    level.
    
    Yet I try, and succeed for a while, then try again, and again, and
    again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again [...]
                                                      
    Re: .1 can you point me to your more recent study?

    Re .3, I am also curious what "obsessive" behavior you refer to
    on the part of thin people that turns you off?  I don't diet (I've
    eaten every banana split I've ever felt like eating), and have never
    exercised regularly, but I've weighed 95 lbs. for my entire adult
    life.  I'm not rude to overweight people, although I have had
    overweight people be rude to me.  I worked with one extremely obese
    woman when I first came to DEC who used to tease me constantly for
    not having a big chest.  It seems to me that people think nothing
    of telling thin people they are too thin, or small busted women
    that they don't "have enough", but god forbid anyone make a comment
    towards an overweight person - that is malicious cruelty!
    
    Re the person who is 6'2" and weighs 135 lbs., don't worry about
    it.  You've heard the old saying, "You can never be too rich or
    too thin."
    
    So few of us have perfect bodies, why point the finger at fat or
    thin?  Given a choice we'd all look like Christy Brinkly or the
    solar-flex man, I'm sure.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .9
    
>    So few of us have perfect bodies, why point the finger at fat or
>    thin?  Given a choice we'd all look like Christy Brinkly or the
>    solar-flex man, I'm sure.

    Not me - I'm quite happy with myself now.  I think the "solar-flex"
    man look is revolting.
    					Steve

    Re .10, well, I have no idea what you look like so maybe you have
    every reason to be quite happy with yourself :-) !
    
    I'm not miserably unhappy with myself, but I think I'd feel happier
    about trying on bathing suits if I looked a little more like Christy
    Brinkley.  
    
    Actually, the man who used to advertise solar-flex (I think they
    have a new one now) is not muscle bound.  He was more just built
    well - more along the lines of a Harrison Ford, Richard Gere, Bruce
    Springsteen, Kurt Russell type body.  I think muscle bound is
    revolting, too.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .4 and .9 asking about the comment in .3 on obsessive behavior
    
    The jist of .3 was the role projection plays in being turned on/off
    by some characteristic in another.  The comment on obsessive behavior
    was an attempt a humor around my tendency to be obsessive about
    diet.  I sorta assume that most non-thin folks need a high level
    of motivation/obsession to get started on a weight-loss program.
    I certainly didn't mean to say that all "thin" people are obsessive
    - just that they provide a good hook on which to hang feelings that
    I am not ready to accept in myself.

I too am "chronically slender", but like Steve I enjoy myself as I am.  I'm an
avid volleyball player and being slender helps me in so many ways I wouldn't
have it any other way!  Come to think of it, it helps in doing just about any
type of sport ( except weight training which I have no wish to pursue! ), so why
should I want to change?  I have no desire to add some more muscles at the cost
of playing the sports I enjoy at the levels I play them at ( I once tried lift-
ing weights to add more muscle, but it screwed up the way I played so I gave
it up! ).

By "chronically slender" I mean I can eat and eat and eat and lose about five
pounds.  I'm 6' and 145 pounds.

I think the trick is to find things you like to do, things you're good at,
( not necessarily sports ) and you'll be much happier with yourself.  You'd be
surprised at what you can do if you give yourself half a chance!


Brian

Another factor in how "fat" you are, besides the number of fat cells in your
body, is your metabolism...  If you have a high metabolism, then you can eat,
eat, eat.  If you have a low metabolism, you have to watch every crumb. 

If you try to lose weight, don't starve yourself.  If you do that, your
metabolism will drop, and you won't lose an ounce.  The trick is to find that
middle ground, where your metabolism stays high, but you are eating less
'calories' then you are expending. 

You can also do some mild exercise to inrease your metabolism.  I'm sure
there are other ways to increase your metabolism, but I don't know them.

There used to be two terms for body build, Ectomorph, and Endomorph, but
I gather that they're other of favor nowadays...

Jim.

    Just so people understand my point about being happy with myself
    as I am - I am 6'4" and 230 pounds.  I consider this close enough
    to my "right" weight to not worry about it, though I am gradually
    approaching 220 pounds which is where I think I ought to stop.
    What's funny is that the "charts" tell me that I ought to weigh
    no more than 190, which given my frame would be skin-and-bones.
    
    I agree that there is much too much emphasis in this culture on
    having one's body match the supposed ideals shown in ads,
    glamour magazines and the like.  It's also well known that many
    people severely misjudge what they look like compared to
    others - this is the phenomenon that leads young girls to
    anorexia.
    
    The author of .0 is, to me, not happy with herself, though she is
    complaining about the reactions of others.  It's a self-fulfilling
    prophecy, unfortunately.  Since she does not tell us what her size
    is, it's noty possible to judge whether she is "obese" or merely
    "full-figured".  Personally, I prefer cuddly women to the
    too-thin ones!
    					Steve

    re.10 + 15
    
    Steve I think you have strayed too far from the original topic.
    
    It is my opinion that a note entitled "how do you feel about yourself"
    would be much more appropriate.
    
    re .0 
    I was huge as a kid.
    My mom was told when I was five that I probably would not live to
    be 10.
    When I hit ten my mom fed me like a runaway horse.
    At thirteen I was huge.
    At fourteen I discovered excercise in moderation.
    I've been (moderatly) slender ever since.
    

    Re: .16
    
    You may be right, Kerry, but I did want to make a point that
    it is not necessary to look like Cheryl Tiegs or Sylvester Stallone
    to be happy with one's body.  A lot of pain is caused by people
    who have been led to believe otherwise.
    
    To MILVAX::SULLIVAN (sorry I don't know your first name) - it seems
    to me that you are not happy with yourself.  If you're not happy,
    people won't be attracted to you, no matter what you look like.
    Unfortunately, I don't really know enough about you to say much
    else.  I do not propose to pass judgement on whether or not you
    should lose weight - that is entirely up to you.  But if you can
    let your inner beauty shine through, you'll find your situation
    much more pleasant than if you just sit and wonder why the world
    is passing you by.
    				Steve

    Got you Steve.
    
    Additionally I am not sure I have mentioned this before but here
    goes.
    One of my favorite passtimes is people watching.
    People come in a fantastic array of different shapes and sizes.
    I love to people watch at the beach.
    One observation I have is almost never do you see two people that
    look "exactly right" for each other.
    Seems differences makes the world go round.

    YOU ARE MORE THAN LIKELY RIGHT, I AM NOT HAPPY WITH MYSELF FOR ALLOWING
    THIS KIND OF WEIGHT TO CRAWL ON MY BODY OVER THE PAST 25 YEARS.
    AS FOR HOW OVERWEIGHT I AM "MORBIDLY" . AFTER READING SOME OF THE
    NOTES I FEEL I HAVE MISLEAD SOME OF YOU. I ONLY LISTED MY VIRTUE'S.
    I BECAME RATHER DISGUSTED WHEN I READ SOME OF THE SINGLES, AND THE
    MAJORITY OF THEM SPECIFIED SLIM.  IT JUST BUGS ME THAT OUR SOCIETY
    IS SO HUNG UP ON BEING TO FAT, THIN, TALL, OR SHORT.

    Re: .19
    
    Don't get too worked over the SINGLES entries.  Most of these
    people specify "perfection", even though they are likely no
    prize themselves.  Not everyone is like that, though.
    
    					Steve
    

Well I think there is a great deal to be said for just coming to terms 
with not being happy with yourself and pinpointing the reason as to why!
That in itself is a wonderful accomplishment.
Next step?

Well the next step is deciding what you can do to gain controll of it 
all... when the desire for something is great enough it is amazing how
you can find the strength to follow it through.. The important thing
is that you must want it for yourself and muster the courage of your
new found convictions.. to do something as drastic as revamping your
body is a major undertaking and you must do it for you and you alone
for you will not have any disapointment that way.

I wish you well.. but I think you have won half the battle....

    If you decide YOU want to lose weight YOU can... only you have to
    take it step by step, hour by hour.... only YOU can do it, and nobody
    else.... I have lost a large amount of weight, and still have a
    significant amount to go...  right now I don't WANT to lose the
    other 30 pounds and haven't.  When I wanted to lose the weight I did...
    
    First YOU have to decide you no longer like yourself as you are...
    if and only If you come to that conclusion, then you have to decide
    that YOU have the power to do something about it!!! Once you do
    that, half the battle is over (I promise!!!) The other half of that
    battle is to diet (and later add exercise)... don't diet for a year,
    or 3 months, or even a week, but diet hour by hour (and drink LOTS
    of water)...
    
    When the first 20 pounds come off, the next 20 become a game, and
    the next 20 are easy... the next 20 become a challenge, and the
    last 20 are hard... but its all worth it!
    
    GO FOR IT!
    
    

    
    
    BINGO!  It's really not that hard to do! You have to WANT to. I'm 6'0''
    and last year at this time I was 255; I got sick of it; so I got off my
    rear end and did somthing about it. I'm now down to 180. I eat better, I
    do aerobics (which at first I HATED!), and some Nautilus for toning. It
    took a good 4 months to start to look better, but I feel much better
    with myself. Also, don't ever think that your appearence is the
    reason you are not 'happy'. 
    
    Being 'happy' is a perspective on life that can be reflected back on,
    and affect your habits; that in-turn result in your appearance in
    some cases. For me, it took a rather radical change in my life to
    realize all of this. I'm happy.  Good luck! 

    My mom's boyfriend starts complaining (loud) whenever her weight
    drops below 185.  She's not obese; he just likes, er, handles.
                                                
    Lee
    

    I may be chronically slender, but I also am careful with my eating
    habits (now that I'm over 30).
    
    I read an article recently about one woman's weight loss decision.
    She said she reached a point where her self-hate for her obese body
    balanced out with her self-love (a desire to live longer, feel 
    better), and she could finally break the destructive cycle of feeling
    bad about herself and abusing herself by overeating as a result.
    Interesting idea -- you have to hate and love the body you are in
    to change it.
    
    

I am one of those who others hate.  Well built in spite of huge
amounts of ice cream, which is a passion.  I suspect it may be at
least partly genetic (body build and eating capability).  This has 
been the case since way before I started cycling.

But, as a result I guess, I do have trouble with obese people as
potential dates.  It's a prejudice in myself which I dislike, but
it's there and seems to be ingrained.  

Maybe losing this prejudice is for some of us as difficult as losing
weight for others.  I may get really criticized for this, and maybe
its deserved, but it's really not a conscious decision on the way I
am. 

As James Burke would say, "an alternative view".

	~Mike

    Re .26, I hope nobody actually hates you for being "well built"
    (self-proclaimed), since it's apparently not your fault!
    
    I understand what you mean, though.  I could never call myself well
    built, but I am a small, petite person (5'1", 95 lbs.) and I have
    never been romantically attracted to an obese man.  It's sad, but
    not something I can help.  I hate to see looks given too much priority
    by society but, on the hand, no one can be expected to date people
    that just don't appeal to them.
    
    Lorna
    

	Obesity means different things to different cultures and/or periods
    in history.  It wasn't more than a hundred years ago, that famous French
    impressionist painters (Renoir immediately comes to mind) saw big as
    beautiful.  Just take a tour of your local art gallery and see for
    yourself, these models were not "Solid Gold Dancers", but when plump
    was considered healthy and wealthy, these models were hot!

	Speaking of health, have you ever noticed that AIDS patients tend
    to become very thin as the disease worsens, I'm sure that most other
    plagues in history have had similar effects on it's victims.

	I have a fantasy that involves 4 obese women (see note 58.6 for
    more details).  I should qualify this by mentioning that I am married
    and don't plan to live out this fantasy anytime soon, but I just thought
    I'd point it out to those who think that such a thing unheard of.

	Also, for the record, I weigh in around 195 lbs. at a height of 6
    feet and my wife is around 125 lbs. at a height of around 5' 6", so the
    fantasy doesn't neccessarily map to reality in this case, but I will
    admit to having loved an obese woman or two in my younger days.


								-davo

re: .28

I think you hit what may be the "hidden cause" of a lot of the
current bias against obesity: namely that it's seen as a sign
of ill health.  People are probably following an instinctive
tendency to shy away from mates who seem unhealthy, since such
a mate may: A. not be able to bear children, or B. not live long
enough to help rear the children.

What may be learned is the image of what "ill health" is.  In
times of scarcity, being overweight was probably a sign of
economic/social prosperity and advantage.  Thinness might be
viewed as a sign of imminent starvation or having a wasting
disease.  In our times, the reverse interpretations seem to
have taken hold, in part because we know of medical evidence
that excess weight adversely affects health (but I'm sure there
are other, non-medical reasons for the reversal too).

I'm not obese, but have been carrying around an extra 20 lbs. (on average)
for the past 14-15 years.  I've recently read "Fat is a Feminist Issue"
by Susie Orbach, and "And Such a Pretty Face" (author's name forgotten) --
both excellent books which got me to think about my relationship to food 
and being fat, and what being fat _means_to_me_.  I don't know if I'll ever
lose this extra 20, but I don't hate myself as much for it as I used to.

CQ

    I began having a weight problem after the birth of my first child
    (I gained 60 lbs. during the pregnancy).  I have tried every method
    of weight control in the book.  They all worked for a time but I
    gained the weight back.
    
    The turning point for me came three years ago when I participated
    in a study at MIT.  Dr. Judith Wurtemann had a theory that people
    that craved carbohydrate actually lacked a chemical in the brain
    called Serotin.  She divided her volunteers into two groups one
    that was on a placebo and one with the real thing.  I happened to
    be very fortunate and received the drug.  I lost 20 pounds during
    the study (we had to promise not to diet).  But the part that meant
    the most to me was that I no longer had serious bouts of depression.
    I have since changed my diet and any change in mood I might have
    can be attributed to a problem in my life.
    
    I still had a problem with choosing the right foods so I went to
    Yefim Shubentsov in Brookline.  He is a bioenergetic consultant
    in Brookline.  With his help I eliminated all desire for sweets,
    cookies and desserts.
    
    At the present time I am about 10 pounds overweight which I will
    loose soon.  I am doing it slowly as I do not want to have to buy
    a new wardrobe in the middle of the season.
    
    The secret is as several people have said is to feel good about
    yourself.  It is a lot easier to loose weight when you don't have
    to feel guilty.  
    
    I am not sure what Dr. Wurtemann is doing now.  I do know that Yefim
    is all booked up for the next year.  I waited 8 months for my
    appointment.  But he will allow people to wait in his office in
    case of a cancellation.  He also works with smokers and asthmatics.

    Once again a series of replies that suggest how to lose weight,
    mostly implying motivation.
    
    Once again, there are no statistically significant LONG_TERM treatment
    effects for weight loss.    

    
    	It seems to me that many of the single men I meet (and probably
    single women as well, but I don't know for sure) are looking for
    their MR/MS Perfect!  And being overweight does not fit into their
    idea of what perfection is.  
    
    	My
    

    re .32,	"there are no statistically significant long term
    		 treatment effects for weight loss."
    
    Mr. McCready probably means "there are no statistically significant
    long term treatments".
    
    I assume you mean that chronic lack of calories does not work?
    Lots of people in the Third World will be surprised.  Massive
    parasite burdens, surigical excision of the intestine, cancer,
    and some forms of malnutrition all work wonders in melting off
    those pounds.  There are long-term treatments.  They have all
    the significance you could wish, statistical or otherwise.
    
    On the other hand, there is no easy, painless pill you can take
    which will do the work for you, which will let you contine to
    live and eat as you used to before.  Long-term weight loss requires
    a change in the circumstances which lead to weight gain.
    
    If I've misunderstood what you were saying, what _were_ you saying?

    				-John Bishop

    I just read an article this weekend that stated that if a women
    of moderate height (I assume 5'4") weighs 120 at 20, she is
    statistically likely to be healthier if she weights 150 at 50. Whether
    she would be happy with that is another question.  My Mom is 150
    at 50, well proportioned, but thinks she's fat.  She looks good
    in clothes, and doesn't sag and bounce all over out of them, but
    feels unattractive.
    
    Why don't we just give ourselves a break once in a while?  REAL
    people don't look like Jane Fonda, only Jane Fonda does.  Real people
    look like my Mom.

    re .34
    What I believe was meant by the "no long term treatment" is
    that baring disease or famine the body naturally tends to regain
    the lost weight.
    
    Persons who dieted and lost significant amounts of weight have
    to continue to diet for the remainder of their life to keep the
    weight off. If they eat what one would consider a more "normal"
    calorie intake they will gradually gain weight again. 
    
    re .35
    
    I recently read an article about "slow burners" I followed their
    calculations and found that they predicted my present weight at
    42 exactly. I found the diet program they felt necessary, 
    excessively spartan. 

    In our culture fat has probably become the number one issue.  We
    are surrounded by either too much of it or too little of it wherever
    we look.  I carried about 80 lbs too much for many years of my life
    and then one day (in one minute actually) made a decision NOT to
    be a fat person any more.  I won't say that it was originally easy,
    but being a thin person has become a way of life now (after 5 years)
    and I will never go back.  It no longer requires a concious effort
    for me to not gain weight, if anything it take concentration to
    gain (about five lbs in the winter for warmth).  I know that personally
    I am much happier with myself, and therefore much happier with the
    rest of the world.  Fat (sorry, but I don't find any flattering
    way to say it) turns me off.  It turned me off when I was fat and
    it still does.  If a person is happy with their body and it is fat
    then I think that it is great that they are happy with themselves,
    but if they are fat and unhappy and CHOOSE to remain that way, then
    it becomes their problem, noone elses.
    
    I think that the problem with most everyone is that in this society
    we want someone else to do it for us.  We rely on diet centers,
    excercise programs, diet pills, diet foods, everything, but the
    one thing that is actually going to get us and keep us thin ------
    OURSELVES.  The ONLY way to lose weight and to keep it off is to
    learn to say NO - to yourself, probably the one person who has the
    hardest time listening.  After the weight is off, then you can learn
    to say yes again and live like a thin person.  
    
    It should be noted though that there are people who find fat very
    erotic, maybe you just haven't found the right one.  My husband
    doesn't like women who are too thin so I don't mention weight to
    him at all, but after living with me for four years he has dropped
    most of his excess too.  Guess who's feeding him?
    
    By the way we are both chocolate addicts and eat all we want!!!!!!!!!
    
    
                                                                         

I am leading my day to day life right now on about 900 calories a 
day..  I am loosing approximately 2 pounds a week.  I say that 
because one week I will loose 5 pounds and then not loose an ounce 
for the next two..  I have been at this for quite some time now with 
some pretty worth while results..  

I have learned some pretty important things these past few months 
one of which is

   I control what goes in my mouth.. no one else.. if I choose not
   to eat it, I will not and it will not show on my hips the next 
   day!!

It is not easy facing the rest of my life knowing I can never eat 
again as I once did.  The astounding part is I never was a classic 
over eater..  Never did I see myself as eating any different from my 
other family members or friends... the difference was it was over 
eating for me!  We all run at different rates..  I am by observation 
what seems like a very energetic young woman.. I jog, play some 
sports, keep up with two kids, rush about from the time I get up in 
the morning till I go to bed at night and live each day a pretty 
busy lady... this makes no difference so it seems.. when I eat over 
1200 - 1400 calories a day I gain weight!  It is gradual I admit but 
it catches up with me...  

There are no easy answers.. it means always be on mental alert.. 
saying to myself I had 4 bread servings today I can't have another.. 
tomorrow I will have cake and do without something to make up for 
it.. asking for a soda water when I would rather have a Coke, having 
two light beers instead of two Kahlua drinks when I go out, 
exercising for 45 minutes before I go to bed every night, walking 
down town instead of riding...  It get easier everyday and I know 
that once I can buy a size 8 or 10 dress again and KNOW it will fit 
that it will not really be over.. it will be a struggle for the rest 
of my days if I indeed want to remain that which I am becoming..

I tell you what though.. every minute has been worth it!  To gain a 
new sense of self confidence, to know that you are doing everything 
you can to look and feel well, to look forward to that new summer 
swim suit instead of dreading having to buy one.. 

I am not turned off by obese people.. in fact I prefer people with a 
little extra weight on them in general.  I sometimes have a hard 
time dealing with very slim people..  I don't see them as slim and 
attractive.. I quite often see someone that needs feeding!!  Guess 
it comes from the family I was raised in were to feed someone is 
like showing love....

gailann

    Question (should this be a new note?):  When you have been
    "significantly overwieght" for some tme then have lost _all_ of
    the extra weight, how do you feel about the positive comments of
    the people in your office?
    
    Example in point: a man in our lab has suddenly stopped being obese.
    He looks _FANTASTIC_ now!  A chronically slender person, I don't
    really know how to tell him how nice he looks.  Everyone in the
    lab has watched him diet, thinking he was doomed to be fat, and
    suddenly, he is approaching slender.  Would you feel harrassed if
    a person of the opposite sex told you how nice you look ("and I
    wasn't attractive before?  The only thing that changed was the
    fat..."), and how often is too many times?  Every time I see him,
    his weight loss strikes me, and I want to tell him how much better
    he looks.
    
    My "romantic friends" have been everywhere on the scale from
    practically anorexic to morbidly obese; it really _is_ the person
    inside that makes the difference.  But still, I have to recognize
    how much work, travail, struggle, etc it takes to lose that much
    weight and keep it off.
    
    Lee

re: .38

i think you're right about the boost that losing weight can give to
your self-esteem...but maybe accomplishing any difficult task has the
same effect (sometimes we feel proudest of ourselves when we are
straining our hardest)

>I am not turned off by obese people.. in fact I prefer people with a 
>little extra weight on them in general.  I sometimes have a hard 

one comment...i think "obese" means more than having just "a little
extra weight on", it means being overweight to the point of health-
threatening consequences (hope i'm not abusing your quote)

there are many women who are probably overweight by our exaggerated
media standards that i find attractive (the same goes for women who
are supposedly too "small-busted"--talk about phony standards!) what
is a definite "turn-off" is someone who looks like a candidate for
imminent stroke, congestive heart failure, or diabetes...

    Re 39: complementing people on weight loss.
    
    Anyone who wants to come by my office and complement me is welcome...
    (I've never been shy!)  Actually, I made sure folks in my group
    knew I am dieting - some of that was to get some feedback and some
    was to make sure that if I didn't lose someone would know and 
    also to make sure noone pressured me to eat cake at office parties.
    It has helped me a lot to have positive feedback, and I hope they
    never stop telling me about it.  Some weeks, when I lose very little,
    I start losing momentum so those little comments help me very much
    during the not-so-lean times.
    
    I *know* I didn't look so hot - telling me I look better now doesn't
    make me feel offended that you didn't think I looked fine before.
    
    Re: ? - I had the same experience you did - one day I looked at
    myself and said "no more!  This is *not* babyfat!  Stop kidding
    yourself lady, and start doing something about it."  I started
    with exercise but, since muscle weighs more than fat, although
    I lost some inches I didn't lose weight.  Now I'm doing both
    diet and exercise.  It's better than diet alone since it keeps
    your skin tone up when you exercise while you diet.
    
    --Louise

    Please DO tell someone if you've noticed a change for the better.
    I can't tell you how good it made me feel for people to notice
    that I had lost weight.  On top of the sense of accomplishment,
    it also indicates that someone is noticing you.  If you deliver
    the compliment correctly, there will be little risk of misunderstood
    intentions.
    				Steve

	I believe that one is obese is the weigth is 20% or more
above the ideal weight according to the charts based on sex, height,
and bone structure (small, medium, large).
	Whether being obese (or thin) is a turn off largely depends
on how the person is able to 'carry' the weight.

re. 32
	NO long term program? This is because the diets can get the weight
off but don't tell you how you KEEP it off. Therefore, after one loses the
weight, he/she goes back eating the old way and up goes the weight - even
to a point beyond the weight at the start of the diet. I know as I have
done that rat hole many times. The maintenance of the weight takes a lot
longer the weight reduction part. It may mean watch for the rest of your
life. You have to get on that scale at least once a week and if you see going
up get on it right away. That way the pounds dont 'creep' up on you. The
program I followed (and still do) is:
	Determine from the weight chart (the health services may have)
your ideal weight. You may want to modify a few pounds. This is your
goal weight.
	For men multiply the goal weight by 12; for women muliply
by 11. This is number of calories daily needed for maintenance
of your goal weight.
	Get yourself a calorie counter book.
	Get on that scale and record your weight. Also determine the
number of calories needed to maintain your initial weight.
	Start off by consuming the amount of calories for maintenance.
It is important that you measure the foods you eat accurately since the
calories listed are usually so much per oz or cup or teaspoon etc. It
would pay have all the measuring devices including a kitchen scale. Dont
guess.
	Do some exercising help burn off calories. This has the effect
of reducing the food calories. For example for every mile you walk
burns 100 calories,

	Record daily:
current wt  food calories   exercise calories   net calories	


where net-calories = food-calories - exercise calories

weekly check the calculated net loss of weight by

	Sum up the net calories over the last week.

	Determine calorie weekly maintenance by

	wt-at-beg-of-week X 7 X 11 or 12 (womon or men)


	week-net-loss = calorie-weekly-maintenance - Sum-of-net-calories
	       	        ------------------------------------------------
				       3500

	This should be close to the acutal weight at the end of the week.

	Some points.
	Your daily weight will tend to fluctuate, largely because of the
amount of fluids you drink and/or retain.
	As you get closer to your goal weight the net loss will become
smaller. Therefore, you may want to reduce the daily calorie intake
and/or excerise more
	Eat less of red meats - preferaby hold to three meals per week.
	Dont eat  something you dont like even if it is good for you. For
example, I wont eat cottage cheese. You are having enough problems. Conversly
eat some of the fatting foods now and then as long as you dont go beyond
what you should consume (here excerise can help; walk an extra 2 miles
say and have that ice cream cone). Keep such fatting foods in small quantities
such as pints (or 1/2 pints) of ice cream rather than 1/2 gal, six-pack of
beer rather than a case etc).
	As for maintenance - just maintain the amount of calories to maintain
your goal weight. If you were eating signicantly below the idea amount, then
each week add 100 calories per day until the idea amount is reached.
Note that through most of 'diet' you have been eating the amount you should eat.
The body should adjust this amount naturally.
	A good nutrician book such as Jane Brody,s Good Food, will be
helpful to insure proper eating through out this.

		Good Luck!

    In October, I will be put on an interesting diet....I am having
    surgury on my jaw, which will then require my mouth to be wired
    shut for 8 weeks.  The doc *wants* me to go on a massive weight
    gaining binge before the surgury.  Now this scares me.... How
    much weight am I supposed to gain?  I am 5'2", large boned and
    according to the *weight* charts 20 lbs overweight.  However, due
    to my large bone structure, don't look overweight.  Now here comes
    a point of interest:  If you look good at what you weigh, who cares
    what the books say?  Once, I lost the required 20 lbs. and people
    were worried about me cause it seems I looked like something someone
    unburied.  
    
    re: thin peoples obsessive behavior
    I have a few friends who are very thin, whats frustrating with their
    obsessive food behavior, is that if they are 5'6" 95 lbs, and never
    gain an ounce dispite massive quanity of food ingested, they are
    constantly discussing their need to go on a diet.  It makes others
    who work at their weight dispair.  I had observed this in groups
    of people before.  Made me wonder if their self image needed a boost
    by having people say, "oh no, you don't need to loose weight!"
    I am not talking about people who have lost weight to become thin,
    we all know that alot of effort and self will went into the weight
    loss.
    I am talking about the people who are "naturally" thin and want
    constant reassurance that their weight is ok.
    vivian

    Sigh.  I get sort of tired of people (like aerobics instructors)
    looking at charts and deciding what they think I should weigh.
    
    I'd rather be the way I am (6' tall and 200 lbs.) than the way aa
    relative of mine is who is anorexic - she is always sick!  I never
    get sick, have more energy than I did in my teens, and feel great!
    As far as I can tell, this is what's right for my body.

    re: 43:
    
    Actually, many long term treatment programs have been explored,
    by top researchers.  These included many alternative therapies,
    including behavioral, pharmacological, psychotherapy, educational,
    behavioristic, etc. in combination with others.  
    
    There are no long term treatment effects.  You are directing someone
    to do something that, from an extensive body of literature, appears
    to be impossible.  

    sorry about the typos...
    
     RESEARCH LIFTS BLAME FROM MANY OF THE OBESE
   by Jane Brody, New York Times, March 24, 1987

Recent findings on the causes of obesity and the metabolic
consequences of "yo-yo" dieting are forcing weight-reduction
specialists to reconsider both their methods and the goals of
treatment. 

The studies show, for example, what many obese people have been
saying for years: they get fat or stay fat on a caloric intake no
greater than, and sometimes less than, the amount consumed by people
of normal weight. 

The dieter accused of "cheating" when losses grind to a halt has
also been vindicated. Low-calorie diets, long the mainstay of
treatment, are now known to have limited effectiveness in many
people because their metabolic rate drops to "protect" them from
starvation, sometimes falling low enough to prevent further weight
loss on as little as 1000 calories a day. 

And while obesity that runs in families had long been blamed almost
entirely on household glutony and sloth, last year a major study of
people who were adopted showed that genetic factors seem to
predispose many people to gain weight easily, especially in a land
of perpetual plenty where there is little need for physical
exertion. 

One by one, obesity experts are concluding that many, if not most,
people with serious weight problems can hardly be blamed for their
rotund shape and that, given the effects and effectiveness of
current methods of weight reduction, soem would be better off
staying fat. Only about one dieter in 10 achieves lasting success,
and many obese people who manage to lose significant amounts of
weight may have to exist in a semistarved state indefinitely to
maintain the loss. "At least half of obese people - those who are
more than 30% overweight - who try to diet down to 'desirable'
weights listed in the height-weight table suffer medically,
physically, and psychologically as a result, and would be better off
fat," said Dr. George Blackburn, an obesity specialist at HarvaRD
Medical School. 

But while these emerging conclusions may seem depressingly fatalistic to
obesity specialists and the people they hope to help, the new
understanding may eventually lead to safer and more effective
treatments for obesity than having to subsist on very low-calorie
diets or resorting to dangerous drugs or surgical procedures. 

"For the last five years I was really in the doldrums," said Dr.
Jules Hirsch, obesity specialist at Rockefeller University in New
York. "Whatever we tried had the same grim results: people could
lose half their body weight, but they'd be miserable in the reduced
state and in two to five years, they'd gain it back." 

But Dr. Hirsch added: "Prospects opened up by new techniques in
biology have really raised my spirits. For example, we are now
trying to clone the gene that makes mice obese. In less than 10
years, we should know how the obesity gene acts, whether people are
different from mice and whether there are multiple types of obesity.
I think too, that we will better understand the biological factors
that regulate body fat and find ways to manipulate them without
drugs." 

More immediately, some of the recent discoveries can be applied now
to improve the health and fitness of obese people and to help those
with lesser weight problems, most of which are environmentally
induced, to shed unwanted pounds permantly without really dieting. 

New studies indicate that for many obese people, relatively small
weight losses - often only 10% of body weight - can correct a
tendency toward diabetes or high blood pressure. Thus, major health
risks associated with obesity might be countered with modest losses
of 10 to 25 pounds that are easier to maintain. 

"The whole premise that the goal of weight reduction should be to
reach 'desirable' weight is the  major flaw in weight-loss
strategies," Dr. Blackburn said. "It's the first 10% of weight - not
the last 10% - that's important." 

For people already consuming a normal number of calories, such
losses can often be achieved through an hour a day of physical
exercise, with little or no change in caloric intake and with a more
lasting reduction than that achieved through dieting alone. For
example, at Stanford University Dr. Peter Wood put one group of men
whose weight averaged 220 pounds on a diet that reduced caloric
intake by 300 calories a day. A similar group of men were instructed
to eat a susual but to run or walk 10 to 12 miles a week. 

At the end of a year, the exercisers had lost an average of 9
pounds, all in body fat, and the dieters had shed 15 pounds, 12 of
which were fat. However, two years later, the dieters had regained
half their lost pounds but the exercisers had kept off all the
weight. 

Importance of Exercise 

Even if no weight is actually lost, Dr. Hirsch said, exercise can
improve the health of overweight people by reducing their percentage
of body fat and their risk of developing a life-threatening illness. 

Furthermore, the popular motivational principle of "if at first you
don't succeed..." may not apply to weight reduction. Rather, the new
studies indicate, the dieter's motto should be "Get it right the
first time," according to Kelly Brownell, a psychologist at the
university of Pennsylvania. He showed that yo-yo dieting - regaining
weight and losing again - increases body fatness and may ultimately
result in an inability to lose weight even on a very low caloric
intake. 

Some women attending the university's obesity clinic failed to lose
weight when eating only 800 or 900 calories a day, Dr. Brownell
said, adding that "they seemed to be the ones who'd been on the most
diets." 

In a study of dieting rats, he showed that at first it took the
animals 21 days to lose a specific amount of weight an 46 days to
regain it when they returned to a normal caloric intake. But in the
next diet cycle, the same diet took 40 days to accomplish the
weight-loss goal but the animals regained the weight in only 14
days. At the same time, their bodies got progressively fatter
because in losing weight, they lost both muscle and fat but they
gained back proportionately more body fat than they had lost. 

More Pounds on Fewer Calories 

Dr. Brownell found that yo-yo dieting increased the activity of
lipoprotein lipase, an enzyme that promotes the storage of body fat.
And since fat tissue is metabolically less active than muscle, with
each diet cycle the animal's daily caloric needs dropped and they
gained weight on fewer calories. 

The phychologist concluded that yo-yo dieting increases the body's
efficiency in using food for fuel and may ultimately make weight
loss impossible. In past centuries, ne and others have suggested,
this genetically programmed ability to conserve calories improved
survival chances in periods of food scarcity. But today it is
maladaptive. Dr. Brownell suggested: "Don't start a diet unless your
motivation is high and you adopt a good program of life- style
changes that promote permanent weight loss. If the time isn't right
to diet, wait." 

Dr. Brownell's team and researchers at Harvard, Yale Vassar and
Rutgers are now concluding a study of yo-yo dieting in animals and
people. Among the questions being explored are its effects on
health, whether the drop in caloric needs depends on how much weight
is lost or how fast it is lost and whether exercise or the nature of
the diet makes a difference. 

All Calories Aren't Equal 

There is already evidence that certain foods are better than others
in promoting weight loss. Contrary to long-held assumptions, all
calories are not equal. A calorie of fat counts more to the body
than a calorie of starch. 

Dr. Eliot Danforth of the University of Vermont in Burlington,
explained that dietary fat is the only nutrient that can beat a
direct path to the body's fat deposits. Only 2.5% of the calories in
fat are needed to accomplish this. Starches, on the other hand,
"cost" about 25% of ingested calories to be stored as fat, and only
about 1% of ingested carbohydrates end up as body fat. 

Thus, Dr. Danforth said, simply switching from a high-fat diet to
one high in carbohydrates, without actually lowering caloric intake,
can result in a net caloric loss to the body. 

In addition, switching from simple carbohydrates - sugars - to
complex ones - starches - and increasing dietary fiber can reduce
the high insulin levels often found in fat people. Since a main role
of insulin is to promote the storage of body fat, lowering insulin
levels should facilitate fat loss. 

Benefits of Mini-Meals 

It might also help to divide caloric intake into as many as six
mini-meals a day and to avoid consuming concentrated sweets between
meals. Both large meals and sweet snacks trigger an outpouring of
the fat-storing enzyme liprprotein lipase. Dr. Robert H. Eckel of
the University of Colorado Health Services Center reproted to the
American Diabetes Association last June that obese people, in
comparison with people of normal weight, produce too much of the
enzyme, and that even after weight loss, their enzyme activity did
not fully return to normal. This suggests that obese people who lose
weight may have to continually fight a biochemical tendency to load
fat into their cells. 

Dr. Robert Schwartz of the Veteran's Hospital in Seattle found that
people who had maintained a large weight for eight or more years
still produced too much of the lipase enzyme. But as soon as these
people who have lost weight start regaining it, their enzyme level
drops. 

Other studies at Rockefeller University showed that obese people may
never  be able to maintain a reduced state on the caloric intake
consumed by those who have never been fat. 

Dr. Rudolph Leibel and Dr. Hirsch found that a group of obese
people, whose weight averaged 334 pounds, consumed about 3650
calories a day, whereas people of normal weight who averaged 138
pounds ate 2300 calories a day. After six months on a 600 calorie
diet, the obese people had dropped to an average of 220 pounds, but
to keep the weight off they could eat only 2200 calories a day. 

The group never reached "normal" weight, but if they had, the
ersearchers said, they would have to consume only 1700 calories a
day indefinitely to maintain the weight. 


A Possible Genetic Origin

Such biochemical differences between obese people and those of
normal weight are most likely genetic in origin,a ccording to
studies by Dr. Abert Stunkard, a psychiatrist at the University
of Pennsylvania who showed that adopted adults in Denmark were
much more like their bilogical parents than their adoptive parents
in body weight.

In another study of identical twins, siblings and nonrelatives,
Claude Bouchard of Laval University in St. Foy, Providence, Quebec,
showed that weight gain in response to the consumption of excess
calories aslo seemed to run in families. Other studies showed
that usual levels of activity might be an inherited trait.
For example, Dr. Danforth said, a tendency to fidget, which can
use up as many as 800 calories a day, seems to be inborn and
possible inherited.

"More people in the obesity field are now looking at metabolism
as a biochemical phenomenon that is derived from inherited traits,"
said Dr. Theodore B. Van Italle of St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital
Center in New York.

For example, he explained, fat cells have two kinds of receptors
on their surface, one that promotes the breakdown of fat and
the other that favors fat accumulation. "People might differ
genetically in these receptors," Dr Van Italle said. "Such findings
are beginning to explain why people living in the same environment
vary in fatness."

At the least, the fat-cell receptors seem to explain why people
often cannot lose weight in particular trouble spots. Dr Leibel
at Rockefeller University found htat the fat cells on women's
thighs and hip predominantly contain the receptors that accumulate
fat.

One woman with a pear-shaped body was shown to have almost none
of the fat-releasing receptors on her thighs and hips; when she
lost weight, she lost it everywhere except where she wanted to
lose it.

Food and Body Heat

There may also be an inherited difference in the ability of
people to generate body heat from food, which uses up some of
the calories a person consumes.

Researchers at the University of Laussanne in Switzerland showed
that women who had been obese since childhood generated
significantly less body heat from a meal than did women of normal
weight. Even after weight loss, the obese women showed a deficit
in heat production.

Still, Dr. Van Italle said: "The growing evidence that fatness
in inherited should not discourage physicians about the treatability
of obesity. Body fatness responds to environmental conditions.
As members of a sedentary and food-prone society, obesity-prone
persons who wish to control their weight must learn to maintain
a high level of physical activity and to eat defensively."
    

    .0 my advice: ignore the "thingles' obthessions" and be yourself.
    You sound like a "model" person [see following].
    
    You may qualify as a "Rubens' Woman" - the kind that great painters
    used to paint and admire and many men still do. You must know that
    there are specially designed fashions, etc. for the full bodied woman.
    
    My Grandmother used to say "I'm getting fat!" And my Grandfather would
    lovingly say "There's just more of you to love!"  We never wanted
    her any other way than just as she was.         
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

    I heard a psychologist on the radio the other day who specializes
    in counselling people who have weight related psychological problems
     and she agreed that no-one should ever diet as it does no good
    on a long term basis.  However she did say that people can lose
    weight and keep it off by modifying their eating habbits.  Here
    is her recommendations:
    
    Think of yourself as a naturally thin person.  If you think of yourself
    as Fat you always will be.
    
    Do not eat unless you are physically hungary.  She made the point
    that too often people eat because it is meal time or socially or
    because they are watching TV, etc.  She says your body is the best
    guide as to when you need to eat.  Some people need to eat 6 times
    a day, some only once.  Wait until you are physically hungary not
    psychologically hungry.
    
    Eat whatever you want.  I fyou like Ice cream, eat Ice cream.  You
    need to be consious of a balanced diet but do not "punish" yourself
    by restricting certain foods.  It's OK to eat what you like (as
    long as you wait untill you are physically hungry)
    
    Eat slowly!  Savor your food.  Chew it well.  Mak an event out of
    the times you do eat.  Do not rush through your meals.  It seems
    the human being craves the oral satisfaction associated with eating
    and if you rush your meals and don't get this satisfaction you will
    crave more food.  Also your hunger dissipates slowly so if you eat
    fast you will eat more than you need to satisfy your physical hunger.
    
    Increase physical activity.  Find a type of physical activity you
    ENJOY.  Do not try to Exersize in a way that is not enjoyable because
    you will not stick with it.
    
    Now I can't claim to have tried it and succeeded, but she claimed
    that it has been successful for her clients.  She also discussed
    many of the studies discussed in th article in .46 (or was it .47)
    and supported those findings.  her claim is that our bodies knowhow
    much food we need and we should let them be the judge.
    
    Oh yes she also said that she does not believe in standardized weight
    charts and that "naturally thin" is an individual state of being
    at the weight that is natural for your body.  For that matter she
    advised getting rid of your scale since it really tells you nothing
    but depressing news.  You are almost always going to be too heavy
    or too thin according to a scale, even if you are at the right weight
    for your body (ie naturally thin).
    

    Hi all, I am back again.  I am the originator of this note.  I have
    lost 100 pounds since the first note, I still have 50 more to lose.
    I am a lot happier with myself, but and am still upset when I read singles
    "heavyweights need not reply".  I will write again next year and
    let you all know how the weight is going.      

    Atta person, Eileen!!! Keep up the hard work. How wonderful to know
    you're working hard to get healthy.
    
    Tamzen

    Congratulations also Eileen...
    
    I have just lost considerable weight also and it is quite interesting
    how things have changed.  It is really sad that people view overweight
    people so negatively.  I am the same person I was before...but I
    am being treated differently by men...I can see it in their eyes..
    and their smiles.  When it is a new man I enjoy it...but when it
    is a man that I knew before I am a little offended.
    
    sigh

    	Did any of you see LA Law last night?  They handled the subject
    	of discriminating on the basis of obesity very gently and tact-
    	fully, and I found myself in tears more than once at what this 
    	obese woman had to endure, not only in her personal life but
    	also professionally.  She said she doesn't want to be fat, and
    	why couldn't the world see her for the person she is, not just
    	the body.  So very, yet sadly, true...
    
    						Carla
    

    re: .53
    
    Last nights LA program is what prompted my response.  Fat people
    do not want sympathy they just want to be accepted for who they
    are, not what they look like.

    Having lost 60 pounds I understand your feelings but the truth is
    people judge you on your looks. Weight for most people is something
    they can control when they choose to.  It took me a long time to 
    choose to.  I went through all the agonies and finally said why I am I
    doing this to me?  Well I do not do it to myself anymore.  I feel
    better for it.  It is a way for me of gaining control of my life.
                                      
    I have friends of all shapes and sizes but when it comes to SO's
    I expect the same exercise of will it took me so long to learn to
    exist within them or to have been learned by them.
                                  
    So for those of you have succeeded keep up the goodwork!  For those
    of you who want to be healthier I will give you the best advice I can.
    If this is the first moment of your life what would you like your
    body to become.  Then do it because the only time to start is NOW!
    You can't start yesterday and tomorrow never comes.  If anyone out
    there would like some help just give me a call.  
    
    Oddy Boddy
                                                                     
                                    

    Actually,... the truth is that all people do not judge you on your
    looks.  Often they who tend towards the superficial and those who
    have priorities and values that lie in that direction might judge 
    you on your looks but not everyone.
    
    I decided long ago that I wasn't interested in any man who made
    such an important decision based on such a superficial standard,
    one that overlooks intelligence, warmth, competence, empathy, 
    and strength as not nearly important enough.
    
    I've been on the heavy side and on the thin side in my life and
    I prefer the way people treat me when I'm heavier.  The weight
    separates the wheat from the chaff, allowing those who like me for
    myself or who have a certain depth to their character, a sensitivity, 
    or perhaps values that extend beyond the readily apparent to 
    express an interest.
    
    Neither is it true that "weight for most people is something 
    they can control when they choose to".  Most physicians who 
    specialize in the field today agree that weight is genetically
    predetermined.  If your mom and your sisters are heavy then there
    is a good chance that your metabolism works the same way.  Recent
    studies in the field have shown that heavy people actually eat less
    than thinner people... but their metabolism is far more efficient
    at converting energy.
    
    That one guy who loves you regardless of your weight is the one
    worth taking a chance with...and THEN diet down to where you feel 
    healthier and more comfortable_:-)... without all of the guilt,
    feelings of rejection and emotional baggage.
                                        
    Mary

    All this is discussed at great length in ATSE::WEIGHTLOSS.
    
    But, one more comment:
    
    As someone whose family is disposed to being heavy, AND as someone
    who lost 50 lbs of excess weight and has kept it off for a year
    now, I don't believe that overweight is genetic.  Hereditary, but
    not genetic.  What's inherited are Mom's recipes and all the 
    family eating habits, and the tendency to choose spectator sports,
    not participatory sports, or non-active entertainments for the
    family's amusement.  Once I changed those two habits, it was
    amazing how my weight became manageable.
    
    Along with the human relations aspects of relating to people who
    are overweight, perhaps we can discuss the human relations aspects
    of hereditary habits and how to break them.  That topic would not
    be solely limited to weight-related habits - there're lots of 
    family traits that we inherit....
    
    --Louise

    re: .57
    
    I didn't mean to imply that we are "helpless victims of our
    metabolism".. certainly we are not.   I do question though
    whether it is prudent to take extra-ordinary means to get one's
    weight down below it's natural level if it is being done to 
    attract a type of person that one would probably not want
    to associate with anyway.  
    
    Certainly the number of young (and not so young) girls in this 
    country with anorexia and bulemia reflect the problems that can 
    arise with taking food and body image to extremes... (although 
    most anorexics and bulemics don't realize that their attitudes 
    and behaviors are extreme).
    
    re: .58 
    While one's metabolic system is a genetic factor and cannot be
    changed without taking potentially dangerous drugs (legal or
    otherwise), it is certainly true that hereditary factors (such
    as mom's food attitudes) can be altered to improve the health 
    and well-being of the individual.  
    
    To say that "people will judge you by your weight" as you did though, 
    implies far more than that one should try to exercise and eat
    good foods that maintain one's health.  It implies (probably in truth) 
    that the standards that our society maintains are physical and
    material and that a person's true worth lies in what they look like; 
    not their intelligence, not their competence, not their integrity, 
    not their courage, and not in those contributions they may make 
    to their families and society.  It may very well be a true statement
    that displays microcosmicly what is wrong with our society today...  too
    much show, too much focus on the superficial, ... too many politicians
    that look good and say the right things but have no character, no
    substance, no integrity.
    Mary  

>    re: .58 
>    While one's metabolic system is a genetic factor and cannot be
>    changed without taking potentially dangerous drugs (legal or
>    otherwise), it is certainly true that hereditary factors (such
>    as mom's food attitudes) can be altered to improve the health 
>    and well-being of the individual.  
>    
>    To say that "people will judge you by your weight" as you did though, 

    Mary, are you sure you have the right note?  I *did* comment about
    mom's food attitudes, but never said anything like "people will
    judge you by your weight".  Although they will, as I know all too
    well.

    By the way, you can alter your metabolic rate.  It takes a long
    time, but exercise will hasten your metabolic rate, and lack of
    exercise will slow it.  By "a long time" I mean that it takes
    a long time of doing exercise regularly before your MR goes up,
    and it takes a long time of being a couch potato for it to slow.
    Like years.  I slowed mine down a lot by not exercising, and am
    just now noticing it speeding up.
    
    Another thing that will change your MR is the percent of your
    body that is muscle.  Muscle is an active tissue, and takes a
    lot more energy to keep healthy than fat, a storage tissue,
    does.  By adding muscle and removing fat, you will be able
    to consume more calories and will burn them off faster, just
    sitting in your chair.  I've done a lot of reading on this topic,
    in all sorts of sources - the above info is a result of 2 years
    of reading.
    
    --Louise

    RE:  .60  .61
    
    Also see the book "Beyond Diet" for information on how to change
    your metabolism.  Now if they could only come up with a book that
    the act of reading it would do the trick, I'd have it made!  :^)
    
    Marion

    
    But back onto the subject of people's reaction to obese people.....
    
    Re: .0
    
    Being fat seems to be like smoking - once you've "given it up" you
    have a totally different attitude to it than when you were "doing
    it" to yourself.
    
    Questions: Do you want to get lesser? (In size only!)
               Or are you happy with your size and just wish other people
               would react differently to it?
    
    My breakthrough came when I asked myself what I was getting out
    of being chubby. I used to moan to friends and to myself "I really
    want to be thinner, I try so hard to diet but.....". Then I read
    somewhere the idea that no-one does anything without getting some
    kind of payoff - pretty masochistic payoffs sometimes but you get
    something out of every situation you create for yourself.
    
    So I thought "What am I gaining from carrying this extra fat around
    with me?" - and behold! I could find at least six reasons why I was
    doing it. I then resolved those reasons ("Is this payoff a good
    deal?") and, once done, my dieting strategy started to work.
                                
    So if you're happy with your size, forget the shallow people who
    think protruding hipbones are everything.
    
    If you want to change approach yourself with gentleness - you may
    have been protecting yourself from something scary so be easy on
    yourself - work the root issues and take it from there.
    
    All the best
    
    Abigail
    

    re: .63
    
    Abigal, would you feel comfortable going into more detail about
    what you mean by "getting something out of" being overweight?
    
    I'm familiar in principle with the idea but I'm not sure how
    it applies to weight or how to go about figuring out what one's
    own hidden agendas are.
    
    --bonnie 

    I'll give you one, Bonnie.  For me, the overweight was a built on
    excuse to be unable to do other things.  In other words, if I was
    afraid to try something, well, I could say to myself, no, I couldn't
    possibly do that, I'm too fat.  It was an insulator from the world.
    It kept people at a distance (according to some safety monitor in
    my silly subconscious).  It made me unlike what I thought of as
    normal, and therefore it made me exempt from normal expectations.
    
    When I had lost about half the weight I had to lose, the s*it really
    hit the fan!  I found all sorts of problems that I'd swept under
    the rug, and they were demanding to be solved NOW, since I no longer
    had the appropriate broom to sweep them back into submission.  For
    a while I was a terrible person to be around (no comments from the
    peanut gallery, please ;-) - I am normally a sweet demure soul,
    of course....)  But many things did get settled out, and I gained
    a lot from my loss.
    
    --Louise

    
    About 3 years ago I read the book "Diets Don't Work".  Actually
    you have to do more than read...you need to *do* the exercises
    in the book.
    
    The one that still sticks with me till this day is "what are
    you afraid that you'll do if you're thin?"  One of my answers
    was "leave my husband and become a sex-goddess :^)"
    
    So far I've lost 40 pounds and left my husband...as for the
    sex-goddess part, I'm definitely dating a lot of guys and
    enjoying it alot, but have learn again how little sex has to
    do with all of it (but that's another topic).
    
    Most of the men I date find it hard to believe that I was so
    overweight.  Some have the prejudice that if I was "that fat"
    once, it could happen again.  If it bothers them, then tuff
    s*it!  I know that it took too much work to get this far
    since I did NOT DIET, but lost all the weight thru exercise
    over the last 7 or 8 months.  My "set point" has been changing
    slowly thereby not confusing my body's internal signals.  Usually
    when the men realize the work I have gone thru, they feel comfy
    that it would not happen again.
    
    I did use fat as my insulator from men.  I was raped at 18,
    sexually harrassed all thru my 20's by co-workers and bosses,
    attacked by others, and because of my youthful looks was never
    taken seriously in my work.  Fat helped me cope with all of it.
    Once I gained acceptance for my abilities for my brain, gained
    confidence in myself, I could finally decide that I could handle
    being thin.  I'm still learning and growing on the "inside" to
    keep up with my new "outside" and it feels really good!
    
    		sherry
 
    

    re:66
    Sherry.....if you were still at your previous size, would you still
    be with your (ex)husband?????? Seems like you needed to get thin
    to get the courage to leave. 
    
    Last year at this time I started 6 weeks of exercise and diet 
    (nutri-system) and proceeded to shed 35 lbs. I even got used as
    a model for a site health fair (full body message). Over the winter
    (transfer/house sale/house purchase/moving family) I easily gained
    back all but 5 lbs. It's incredible how easily I made excuses about
    why the weight was going back on. Now I'm starting WW and plan to
    get back to where I was in October of '87. 
    
    	What I'm alluding to is that as the winter progressed, my newly
    aquired friends from my thinning period slowly became non-existent.
    It is amazing how much body size and shape means to certain people
    including those you work with. I guess they weren't friends after
    all. I'm looking forward to seeing if some of them actually begin
    to strike up the relationship with me as my girth dwindles.
    
    Ken

    RE: .67 (Ken)
    
    When you said that as you gained weight, your newly acquired "friends"
    seemed to disappear, and that maybe they were not *Real* friends
    at all.  I think you are right, but maybe saw more into their
    friendship then was ever there.  We (people in general) have Some
    friends (hopefully!) that will stick with us through thick and thin
    (and other cliches), and others that base a friendship on common
    interests, etc.  I believe that those "friends" were of the latter
    variety.
    
    I myself tend to befriend people who are interested in physically
    active pursuits, many of which may be difficult for people who are
    overweight.  (I know - I will get responses from those of you who
    *are* overweight and also physically active.  But I am talking about
    the "majority," based on my own observations.)  And there are other
    people who are uncomfortable with people who have (what they perceive
    to be) physical imperfections of any kind.  That would account for
    the fact that many people tend to look the other way when a cripple,
    or blind person, or scarred person walks by.
                       
    In any case, please be patient with those former "friends," or anyone
    else whose prejudices prevent them from seeing the specialness that
    each of us has.  And Ken, the best of luck with the WW program -
    for YOUR benefit!
    
    Jack
    

    re:67
    
>   Sherry.....if you were still at your previous size, would you
>   still be with your (ex)husband?????? Seems like you needed to get
>   thin to get the courage to leave.

    
    Ken,
    
    Getting thin was part of the courage to leave, but more of it
    is the courage to change what was wrong or negative in my life.
    My weight was keeping me from enjoying all the physical activities
    that I love to do.  My husband's attitude about my weight clouded
    my own attitudes about loosing it...it is *not* his fault that I
    was fat or that I didn't get thin, but how I felt about him very
    much affected how I felt about myself.
    
    re:68
    
    It is very hard to hike up a 14,000 foot mountain carrying a
    backpack full of food and camping gear.  If you are also carrying
    around 40 extra pounds of dead weight (fat), it's even harder
    (or impossible).  And the muscle tone and cardiovascular system
    is also struggling.  Speed and quickness getting around the
    tennis court suffers too.  Fitness is the correct goal, not
    thinness.  Thin people can be in lousy condition.
    
	I would *never* recommend dieting as a permanent solution
    	to weightloss.  Go to the fitness center and get checked
    	out...then work on your fitness and you will get "thin"
    	as a byproduct of exercise.  Starving is *NO* way to live!
    
    
    		Sherry        

    Re: .69
    
    >I would *never* recommend dieting as a permanent solution to
    >weightloss.
    
    >Starving is *NO* way to live!
    
    No, but sensible eating is.  One's diet is simply one's usual eating
    behavior.  Not all diets involve starvation.  Certainly none of
    the good ones do.  I would never recommend dieting as the only
    component in a weightloss plan, though, just as I would not recommend
    only exercise.
    
    One thing to try:  figure out how many calories it would take to
    support your target weight, and then change your diet to limit the
    calories to that level.  By the time you've lost the weight, you
    might have successfully modified your eating behavior.

    All right, let me throw this question out for discussion. 
    
    I can climb said mountain carrying a backpack (.69).  Not quickly,
    but then I never was fast.  My blood pressure is fine, I can walk
    ten miles and not get tired -- and by the doctor's charts I'm
    approximately 30-40 pounds overweight.  My weight has been stable
    since my last child was born 4 years ago. 

    I haven't tried to lose this weight, since I think that as long as
    I'm fit, healthy, feeling attractive, and eating well, there's no
    reason to go out for diets or strenuous excercise programs simply
    to get thin. 
    
    If you were in my shoes, do you think you'd try to lose that
    weight, and why? 
    
    --bonnie

re .71

    I have to second what Mike said in .72:  I wouldn't try to
    lose it.  I weigh 25 pounds more now than I did ten years
    ago, and I feel better than I've ever felt.  And yet some
    women are appalled when they find out I weigh 140 pounds.
    They can't believe I weigh "that much." 

    One of the saddest things to me about our weight-conscious
    culture is people, often women, who feel they are obese
    because they weigh 30 or 50 pounds over what they "should"
    weigh, and yet seem healthy and fit at that weight.  If it
    feels good, it probably looks good, too!

    -- Linda

    
    RE .64
    
    Bonnie,
    
    Well,ell, I can share a couple of my "reasons" for staying fat...
         
    As Louise(?) mentioned, it was partly what I was scared I'd do if
    I got thin.........I was scared of my sex drive (without hitting
    too much detail!).
    
    Also, I am working in a male-dominated environment and I felt like
    a "lightweight" with no "substance" who wasn't being taken seriously.
    I wanted to "throw my weight around" - so I aquired some! Funny
    how the mind works - sometimes images, sometimes puns or word-games.
    
    And I had been through a tough 9  months at work when I'd put on
    3 stone. I felt superficially that I'd left those problems behind
    me - but I was still carrying them - literally!! Letting go of the
    weight meant that I had to re-live that painful time and finally
    resolve my feelings.
    
    As to how to get in touch with these things........well, I tend
    to daydream a lot. I used to think that this was time-wasting but
    if you daydream constructively and deliberately it can be extreemly
    creative. So....
    
    Lie down somewhere and relax.
    Imagine you're the shape you think you'd like to be.
    Put yourself in different situations - current situations (how would
    they feel different? Would people react differently to you? Anyone
    in particular??) or new situations that you'll "only try when I'm
    thin" ...(sports? sex? clothes?)
    
    Imagine in *detail* - get really carried away. Don't analyse at
    the same time - save that for afterwards. *See* the pretty undies,
    *touch* those hipbones, *smell* that expensive perfume that "you
    don't deserve yet". I put of treats  for myself enlessly when plump
    - you may have a different way of not rewarding yourself.
    
    I did this for a couple of weeks, and found that certain themes
    keep recurring. That was how I found my base issues.....
    
    Incidentally, in my JP+R under the "management perceptions" section
    my boss commented on my weight loss and said that it did alter the
    way you were perceived! Make of that what you will....
    
    If you give this a try, do let me know how you get on.......mail
    personally for support if it gets hairy!
    
    Best Wishes
    
    Abigail
    

    Re: .74
    
    >Imagine you're the shape you think you'd like to be.
    
    This is something one of my dance teachers once mentioned.  Visualize
    yourself as you'd like to be.  You're likely to project that to
    some degree.  For instance, people always remembered my teacher
    as being taller because that was her image of herself.  In a way,
    she *acted* taller.

    Here's a visualization exercise I've learned.
    
    Sit in a chair - a fairly comfortable upright chair.  Close your
    eyes - relax - get into a state where you are prepared to visualize
    (i.e. - defocus on what's around you - focus on your breathing,
    etc).  Then - imagine there is a full length mirror to your left,
    and another one to your right - each is about 8 feet away.  In your
    imagination, look at the mirror to your left.  See yourself as grossly
    overweight as you have ever been.  See yourself eating a lot, and
    generally not having a very good time being fat.  Then, in your
    imagination, focus on the mirror to your right.  See yourself as
    healthily thin as you wish to be - imagine how it would feel, what
    you would do, how you would move.  As vividly as you felt the fatness
    in the other mirror, feel the slenderness in this mirror.  Then,
    in your imagination, reach beneath your chair and pull out a sizable
    mallet.  Imagine yourself getting up and walking over to the "fat"
    mirror - which is now empty - and shattering it.  Then place the
    mallet on the chair, and walk right on into the "thin" mirror.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    RE .76
    
    OK Mike....give us an insight.
    
    The perfume an' all is something I think about to symbolise the
    "good things" in life and feeling good....
    
    What do you fellas imagine when it comes to body-image or dressing?
                                              
    Abigail
    

    A handful of notes back I made some comment about how I
    thought it "too bad that people only 30-50 pounds over their
    ideal weight feel they are obese."

    I stand corrected.  I had seen several references to "excess"
    weights of 30 pounds or so and the word "obese" in the same
    sentence, and I assumed people were brainwashing themselves
    into believing anything other than extremely thin is "obese."
    However, an aunt informed me her doctor says she is obese--
    because she is more than 15% over her ideal body weight. 

    This means if my ideal body weight is anything less than 200
    pounds, then an "excess" of 30 pounds would cause me to be
    considered "obese" by at least one doctor. And I'm really
    suspicious of this "ideal body weight" idea--do doctors put
    forth this number as if it is the perfect weight, graven in
    stone?  (I don't know my "ideal" body weight, but I do know
    the weight at which I feel best.)  How do they determine it?
    If it's as scientific as all that, why does the number change
    with fashion and cultural changes? 

    My apologies to all the learned doctors out there, but to me
    "obese" means someone who can't sit in a chair because it's
    not wide enough.  (I have another relative who has that body
    shape.)  The word "obese" has connotations to me that simply
    do not apply to someone who is 30 pounds "overweight."  To
    me, obesity is a turn-off (to reference the title topic
    again).  But to me an "excess" of 30 pounds, or 50, or even
    more on some people, is neither obese nor a turn-off. 

    -- Linda

    Re: .80
    
    Only 15% over 'target' weight?  Hmmm.  The two figures I heard were
    20% and 25%, but that was several years ago.  BTW, 'target' weight
    is usually figured as 100 lbs for the base of 5 feet and 5 lbs for
    every inch over that.  Of course, it's all very fuzzy, since it
    doesn't even begin to address issues like muscle vs fat.

re:  .81

    Do you know whether the same formula applies to men as well
    as women?  Since (as you kind-of pointed out) men tend to
    have proportionately more muscle mass versus body fat than
    women, I might expect the number to be different.

    -- Linda

    
    As I understand it, these mythical figures come from the insurance
    companies. Every company has it's own confidential "little black
    book" on how they rate people - some might mark you up for smoking,
    for example, and some might not. It's to do with the risk of death
    that they can see inherent in your physical condition or personal
    habits. Consequently, as being obese is seen these days to be leading
    toward high blood-pressure or heart attacks, companies will rate
    you up if your body weight is higher than it should be according
    to their tables. This info leaks out to the layman sometimes.
    
    At least, this is what my SO (who's in insurance) tells me.....
    
    I reckon that the body weights they pick on as ideal are no more
    accurate than those tables you find in calorie counters which claim
    to tell you "your weight to aim for". In an insurance company the
    tables are loaded by your sex anyway, plus your medical records
    go through the underwriters who make a mockery of it all.
    Both of these interests change the judgement that was originally
    based on your weight.
    
    Abigail
    

    My doctor told me that one must be at least 10% overweight to be
    called clinically "overweight", and 40% overweight to be considered
    clinically "obese".  Of course, what extra weight looks like depends
    on what % bodyfat you have.  You can be very heavy, and very dense,
    and not look all that overweight (i.e., you are not overfat).
    
    I most bothered by the fat.  Bone & muscle are fine with me.  
    And broad shoulders run in my family anyway ;).

    -Jody
    

    Re: .82
    
    My recollection is that the numbers are different for men.  Probably
    more like 120 for the 5' base and maybe 7-8 pounds per inch, but
    that's just a guess.

Where I came from, it was considered that a man's weight should be 1
Kg for each cm of his height over 100, +/- 5%. For example, 6' men
(180 cm) should weigh 176 lbs. (80 Kg), but 167 to 185 is 
acceptable.

-- Ron

    On the other hand....What people who are too thin?
    I am only 5'3 and weigh 85 pounds.  I have a difficult time
    finding clothes to fit, since the average size is 7-8  and
    I am only a size 3 or 5. People always ask me "Don't you buy your
    clothes in the childrens department" or "dont you ever eat?" and
    worst of all "are you anorexic?"  I do get tired of these little
    remarks, but what can you do when you have a high metabolism and
    can't gain any weight?  Is there anybody out there with my problem...
    a good topic for a new conference??

    
    
    	RE: .87 by CURIE::MARCOMTAG
    
    	Yep, I also share the small high metabolism and have for
    	the past 20 years..  BTW, I am 5' 11" and weigh all of
    	113 pounds.
    
    	G_B
    

    re: .87 .89
    
    Me too....6'2" 160lbs....  20 lbs underweight.  

    re:last few...
    6'2" and 140#
    
    -j
    

    reply: -1
    
    I used to be 145# (6'2")  I started liftin' and finally put on a
    few extra.  It took a whole lot of work, tho....
    
    Bill
    

    Read COOKS for the fuel
    and FLEX for the fire!
    
    ;)
    
    -Jody

    
    No disrespect intended to our slender "fellows" - I'm sure that
    being unable to put on weight can be a problem.
    
    But, returning to the topic, isn't extreem slenderness *fashionable* 
    and therefore not a turn-off in the same way as being "well-rounded" 
    (which hasn't been fashionable since Twiggy).
    
    Is it purely fashion/media hype that dictates what turns us on and
    off as far as body-shape is concerned?
    
    

    Not always....
    
    Check out Sliced "too" thin.....we thin extreemly thin folk catch
    alot of cr*p too....
    
    Bill
    

    re.93 .94
    Indeed, I have been dumped when my weight dident amount to enough
    this usually happens when hers is or becomes more than mine.
    I tried the working out & pumping iron routine the weight went down
    but the ol mushels did become nice and firm...
    I'd rather weigh 165#....sigh.
    
    -j
    

    I wrote this in the "Sliced "too" Thin file because I belong in
    that category, I know weight plays a large role in a persons life,
    but the most important thing is health.  What about people with
    terminal illness? (I don't mean "computer"terminal illness either)
    When you are in a hospital room every day of an illness, it makes
    you think twice about what the "perfect body" is.  I used to intern
    at a hospital, and I seen a lot of illness.  I used to complain
    about being too thin, but seeing all those sick people made me think
    twice.  So what if I am thin (or on this topic-overweight), I am
    healthy, and I feel good and that is all that counts. Right?