Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    Okay, I don't keep up on the trends for what people call other people
    (ethic names included). I guess being labeled handicapped for so
    long it is a general term.....I do like physically challenged better.
    
    Apologies,
    Debbi

    
    
    Semantics? I had to look that one up but thanks for your input....nice
    to hear from both sides!!
    
    Now back to our program....
    
    
    Debbi
    

    A word from our co-moderator...
    
    Replies .2 and .4 clearly are responding to .1 and .3, respectively,
    but the latter have been deleted.  This is extremely irritating.
    Please - if you write something, only delete it if it is offensive
    or you're replacing it with something else - don't delete just
    because you think it's no longer important.
    
    					Steve
    
    

    My attitude towards the handicapped was shaped by a friend of the
    family (my sister dated him for two years) named Louis, who was
    spinal-cord injured in a car accident when he was 18.  He has been a
    quadraplegic for twelve years. 
    
    The hardest part of relating to him was remembering that the person
    inside the body was not handicapped.  I used to find myself filtering
    everything I said/did through a mental sieve to determine if it
    was appropriate conversation/activity for a handicapped person.
    I learned that Louis preferred to be excluded or rudely overlooked
    rather than being treated with kid gloves.
    
    He moved to California several years ago for the climate (he can't
    maintain his own body temperature), the state funded group homes
    and free college.  We keep in very loose touch; our lives have drifted
    apart as people often do when they reach adulthood.
    
    And, no, he never "inspired" me.  He had a nasty, whiny attitude about
    his handicap for years (who wouldn't), but when he took him mind off
    himself, he was great fun to be with. 

Re: .6

Good note!  I don't think I could say it much better, so I won't try.
But I must say something on the subject of "helping".  Namely that it
is up to the "helpee" to decide.  If your friends holler at you for
trying to help, that's their business.  But not all disadvantaged folks
are that proud.  I had a friend in college who was for the most part
confined to a wheelchair and I was amazed at how well he could get
around, but he never minded a bit when I opened doors for him!

Carl

    I have a very high opinion of them.
    It makes me feel bad when I can't do sans impediments what they
    can. Makes me wicked proud of them.

    .11
    
    That reply was extremely unfair.  
    
    

    re: .12 I agree.  Davo, you're out of line.

   I've re-read .10 twice, trying to look at it from a moderator's
   perspective and seeing how it lines up with the "don't speak badly
   of identifiable people" rule.  I can see Davo's point, but tend
   to think that the text in .10 is acceptable for this conference.
   
   It's a touchy subject - and one on which I'm sure to see some
   disagreement - but the text is extremely relevant to the topic
   under discussion, is not really any more insulting than calling
   the brother lazy, and poses a very interesting set of questions
   for discussion.
   
   Davo - thank you for your concern, but I don't think it's warranted
   in this particular case.
   						Steve

    re .15 But Davo from what it reads in .10 he isn't even trying to
    get a job! 
    
    From personal experience also I can understand why it gets frustrating
    on the job hunt. I started fresh out of high school looking too,
    which was even harder. But the onlyperson that can help himself
    right now is him. He knows what is going on and if he doesn't wnat
    to change then wild horses can't drag him into the world. If he
    did decide to drop out of sight it probably wouldn't be long. Also
    you are cutting off his money, home, and support line. So far has
    their really been a need for him to work? No because someone else
    is footing his bills. I wouldn't work either if someone was footing
    all my expenses!!
    
    I am not giving any advice either way but I wish you luck in your
    problem.
    
    Sunshine

    I agree with Davo.  That note was one which should have been entered
    anon. by a moderator.  This is an international net - there is a
    reasonable possibility that the man in question may meet someone
    who has read this file.  Question:  How would you (the author)
    deal with your brother coming to you with a copy of the note?
    
    But, to the subject:  You may wish to look up a recent series on
    TOUGH LOVE in the Christian Science Monitor.  One particular
    part comes to mind.  A mother of 4? kids - all 4 doing drugs -
    kids in their teens/20s.  Only when she let go and let the kids
    deal with their own problems were they able to realize that they
    needed to find solutions.  By helping them, putting "bandaids" on
    their hurts, paying for their bad debts etc, the mother almost
    killed her kids.  A quote from the son (26 or so years old) said
    something like - When she stopped smothering me, I was free to
    sink as low as it took to decide that I wanted to get out and
    get my feet under myself.
    
    It is hard for me to let people be to make mistakes when I can
    prevent the mistakes and hold their hands.  Sometimes you need
    to hold someone's hand.  But refusing to let someone use you for
    a crutch when they CAN do something BY THEMSELVES is sometimes
    the best thing you can do for them.  Just let people know
    you're there and you love them, and then LET THEM LIVE.
    
    Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now...Louise

    All right, all you extremely unhelpful people, I deleted the reply
    in question!
    
    HOWEVER - that doesn't help find a resolution to the problem, which
    is what I was hoping for.   If I didn't CARE about this, I wouldn't
    have asked!   Telling me that I am out-of-line for asking for help
    is no help.
    
    I don't like anonymous notes, and I bet you all don't either.  Everyone
    has problems.  It doesn't help a great deal to hide yourself behind
    an anonymous entry, so no one knows whose problems they are trying
    to help with (or to not help with, in this case).

	Nothing like starting fresh on a problem like this one.  Believe
    me, I know, I have a somewhat similar situation to deal with myself.
    However, for reasons I have already given, I won't go into details.

	My suggestion is to encourage him to try a change in environment.
    Sometimes staying in the same hometown fosters stagnation and the person
    is always going to fall back into the same bad habits/reputation regard-
    less of whether they are on their own financially or not.

	Sounds like what's needed is a gentle push out of the nest to let
    him try out his wings for awhile on his own.  Perhaps lend him a little
    money here and there to get him started, but force him to realize that
    that too is soon to stop, and that it is to be paid back in some way.

	Because of special needs he may have, you might want to help him
    decide what sort of environment would be workable (i.e. walking distance
    to public transportation, etc.), but hopefully he can make the decision
    on his own.  The key is to let Mom signal the end of the "nest" phase
    so as to let him begin to work through the separation in his head.

	Chances are, after a week or so, he'll be ready to move out and
    tackle life on his own.  If not, then it sounds like he may need more
    than a gentle push and perhaps an ultimatum is in order.  Either way,
    the key is to get him out of the "nest" as gently and as soon as possible
    because it sounds like he's spinning his wheels where he is.

							-davo

    p.s.  Sorry for being such a stick in the mud previously, I'd just hate
	to see a simple note cause future problems for anyone.

We're all different physcially, what's all the fuss just because someone is
different in a different way?  What really counts is what's inside you.

Seems to me that the really "disadvantaged" person is the one who doesn't re-
spect such people.  It must be like looking at the world through the wrong
end of a telescope.  So much they're missing out on.  How sad.


Oh well...


Brian

This seems as good a place as any to bring this up ...

I use a non-motorized wheelchair every day, and have been for the past 
6-7 years.  Every now and then I get a "cute" remark about my chair.  
Usually I shrug these off because I don't want to seem like a bad sport.  
But, enough is enough!  Today in the cafeteria, a young woman walked up 
to me and informed me that I'm *very* lucky, because everyone else in the 
place has to walk, but I get to ride!!!  I smiled and told her that I'd 
much rather be walking.  I'm so mad I could spit!  Why do people need to 
say such things to people in wheelchairs?  Do they think they're making a 
joke that no one's heard before?  Are they attempting to be light-hearted?

Sorry to flame like that, but I just wonder what people are thinking.

-Allison

    Re: .21
    
    Too many people don't stop for a moment and think about what they're
    about to say.  This woman clearly didn't ponder a world where
    she could NOT walk even if she wanted to - she only saw you "riding".
    She was just thoughtless, that's all.  Try to ignore these people
    and know that there are many more who can understand your
    situation.
    					Steve

RE: .21 

Allison,

I realize that that remark hurt at the time, and that it probably was
thoughtless...  I have no way of knowing, not having been there.

However...  Everone has a certain number of lighthearted remarks made about
their short comings, usually by people who do care about them.  When someone
makes a joke of one of my shortcomings, I enjoy the joke and laugh along with
it.  If I had been in your position, I would have made it a joke, and laughed at
it. 

I have allways tried to treate handicapped people just like other people;
including not shying away from their handicaps.  I don't watch what I say with
regard to their handicap to make sure that I don't hurt their feelings or offend
them; I treat their handicap as a matter of course.

Do you want people to guard their words around you, and be nervous of upsetting
you?

On the other hand, if you are being teased regularly, or maliciously you
have a right to complain; but thoughtlessness...  it's not worth letting
it ruin your day. 
             
Jim Baranski.

    Mr. Baranski has hit the fastener squarely on the head.
    
    If a dime went into the national treasury every time someone said
    something without thinking about it, we'd pay off the national debt
    in about a week.  Please, don't let it bug you.  I used to say things
    without thinking all the time.  I cured myself of the habit (thank
    heaven) but it was very hard, and I'll bet I still slip once in
    a while.
    
    You know, it is in the nature of men and women to make complete
    boners on occasion.  If the people in question were making a vocation
    out of hassling you, it would be worth a complaint.  As it is, you're
    just an occasionally exposed target, just like the rest of us relating
    humans.
    
    DFW
    

    
    Sorry this is a bit behind the times -  only just got to this note
    anyway here's my two-tuppence worth....
    
    I was in hospital for a total of about three years between the ages
    of 10 and 15 ( I'm now 22), during that time I self taught myself
    for exams etc , succesfully passing 10 O levels ( going on to get
    4 A's and I am in the process of doing my Degree ).
    
    Hospital for me was, rather bizarly, fun !!
    It certainly made you grow up and you soon got a good ( if sometimes
    macabre  ), sence of humour - Either Laugh or cry sort of thing.
    
    When I came out, I was in a wheelchair for a year and crutches for
    2, the problem that I found ( and talking to other 'disabled' people
    they had the same problem ), was that while your friends acted as
    the 'grown ups' expected them to do ( at the age of 16), I seemed
    to confuse them, not so much because of being disabled, but because
    when you've been in a place where the person in the next bed died
    in the night twice ( twon different people, not the same one ),
    amd you yourself have 'died' and have resussitated while being
    operated on - then your view on life is alot different to your
    class mates, and you tend to think of yourself as being just as
    mature in life/death experiences, as your teachers.
    
    I was probably an incredable annoying student to my teachers, because
    I tended to want to be treated as an adult, not because of my
    'disabitity' , but because of what I'd experienced. ( I hope I've
    changed this view of life now ). Also I couldn't find anything remotely
    funny about some of the things my contemprories did, that though
    they thought them incredible funny, I just found them 'Childish'.
    
    I think that I became standofish to my friends, not because of the
    simpithy ( thought I hated it ), but more because of their view
    on life being so differnt to mine.
    
    I know this reply is rather, disjointed, and may sound Big-Headed,
    but I'm seriously trying to explain why I didn't get on, with people
    of my age, or older people - seeming to be in limbo between the
    two. ( this feeling has been colaborated by others who were in a
    similar situation when they were young ).
    
    Regards,
    
    Paul. (alias The Bionic Man)

    first, i'd like to confess that i viewed handicapped people as 
different.  it caused me much anxiety in dealing with one as i didn't 
know how to act/relate etc.  when i look back i see how silly it was.  
i am very happy to say that my eyes were opened and i think *very* 
differently now.

    it started this past summer (one upon a time...:-) while i was 
taking a couple of college courses.  there was a guy (in a wheelchair) 
that was in my class.   but i can honestly say that before i noticed 
him, i noticed his smile.  he had the biggest, warmest and longest 
lasting smile i had ever seen!  then i noticed that he was in a 
wheelchair.  needless to say, we became friends.  WHAT A GREAT GUY!  
but why should i be surprised at that?  just because he couldn't walk? 
he was still a person wasn't he?  yup, he was still a person.  like 
i've already stated a GREAT person.  we became great friends and did 
many things together.  let me tell you, it was his *personality* that 
that made me forget all about the fact that he was handicapped!  there 
i go again...  

    i'd like to break here for a moment.  for all the handicapped 
people in this world (and i'm using handicapped for lack of a better 
word)...no matter how this world changes people are still going to 
think of your inabilities at some point or other.  my thoughts were 
mostly based on the fact of "how would i feel/act/deal with being 
handicapped?"  

    back to the story...this guy and i are still great friends and i 
enjoy being with him beyond words.  as we got to know each other, i 
forget (stop thinking of) the "handicapped" bit.  when we wanted to go 
somewhere i didn't think twice about it.  why should i?  if they're is 
something/someplace out there that we want to go...we're gonna get 
there!!!!!!  nothing is unconquerable!!!!  so at this point we have a 
great relationship.  i'm over my apprehension of handicapped people 
and everybody lives happily ever after.  

    btw, i also admire this guy very much.  he gave me the attitude of 
he can do anything (or just about) that i can do.  he owns the 
sportscar he wants (getting it custom made of course), attends college 
full-time in order to receive a degree in Mechanical Engineering, 
water skis, rides a custom-made bike and is TOTALLY self sufficient!  
like i said, if there is something he wants to do, he's gonna do it!

    i think the attitude of the person has a GREAT deal to do with it!
not to start another story but i've also seen people who are VERY 
bitter about being handicapped and it affects the surrounding people.  
but that's all bitter people i suppose...

    maybe some people are just apprehensive as i was and the only way 
they know how to deal with it isn't always the best taken way...

    i think i've said enough...

                                         tlr

    To respond to the base note, I see handicapped people as I do
    non-handicapped people, no more, no less. The only problem I
    have is whether or not to offer help first or wait until it is
    asked for. And the only reason this is a problem is because,
    with non-handicapped people, I wouldn't think twice about asking
    if I can help with something.
    
    Regarding terminology. It seems ironic to me that the "party line"
    is that one should not treat handicapped people with kid gloves,
    and yet, the "party line" these days seems to be that one should
    use kid gloves regarding terminology in reference to them. I think
    that sugar-coated euphemisms do more harm than good.
    
    Someone who cannot see is blind. Period. Not "vision-impaired".
    Without corrective lenses, I cannot see clearly beyond about half
    a foot away from my face. *I'm* vision-impaired.
    
    Someone who cannot hear is deaf. Period. Not "hearing-impaired".
    I cannot hear clearly over a telephone with my right ear (my left
    is fine, though). *I'm* hearing-impaired.
    
    And so on, and so on, and so on.
    
    A handicap is simply that, a handicap --- a hindrance or
    impediment. It doesn't mean the person cannot do something, it
    only means that it's more difficult for that person to do that
    something. There is nothing wrong with the word "handicapped",
    only with people who want to see something wrong with it or
    what it refers to. As Tracy said in her note's title, "It's all
    in the attitude".
    
    --- jerry

    I am glad to find a note about people with physical disabilities.
    My husband is in a wheelchair from a massive stroke he sustained
    when he was 34.  We met, dated, and married after he was in a
    wheelchair.  Needless to say, it was a surprise to most of my friends,
    but seemed totally natural to my children.  Michael lost 50% of
    his brain; however, it was the portion that controls his motor skills,
    so he could feel, and think clearly, but he could move nothing from
    his eyes down.  After many months in the hospital, he was able to
    breathe, swallow, and sit up in an electric wheelchair.  Eventually,
    he was able to live independently and try to create a new life for
    himself (his wife had divorced him ASAP after the event).  Mike
    decided to return to college, and earned his second degree in
    programming (his first is Electrical Engineering); that's where
    we met.  I won't go into the details of our courtship (I wrote a
    book about it last year.); however, from my perspective, Michael
    is a man whether he's sitting down, standing up, or flat on his
    back.  He has more courage, sensitivity, and is more supportive
    than any man I have ever known, and I am very happy being his wife.
    I am extremely aware of what he goes through on a daily basis to
    perform tasks that I can do quickly, and I make an effort to be
    patient when he slower that I might wish; however, I do NOT view
    him by the label "handicapped."  Mike depends on me without being
    dependent on me; in return, I afford Michael the same consideration.
     
    It has been my experience that not being used to people with physical
    disabilities has a tendency to make people uncomfortable.  Some
    people feel a little guilty that they are "whole", so they try very
    hard NOT to act condescending or to say or do the wrong thing. 
    Needless to say, this makes things uncomfortable for everyone. 
    Frequently, communications get bogged down by feelings of inadequacy
    on both sides.  I have found the best way to resolve this problem
    is to deal with it had on.  Make the person comfortable by being
    understanding; i.e. "You look as if you feel as uncomfortable as
    I do right now.  Sometimes it's hard for me to make others feel
    at ease with me, but I would like to try.  Would you help me by
    speaking freely, and I'll do the same for you?"  This gets the other
    person "off the hook" without making you look or feel "handicapped".
    Chances are that you have just begun building a bridge by tearing
    down a fence.  The "whole" person now has an wonderful opportunity
    to expand his/her mind by learning about someone else's life experience
    and vice versa.  After all, each of us is disabled in some way,
    and each of us is whole in some way.  For some of us, it shows,
    for others, it's hidden.  Underneath it all, we all just want to
    be loved for ourselves, and in spite of ourselves.  There's a saying
    that goes something like this: "If you wonder if you've made it,
    you haven't or you wouldn't be here."  Each of us is here because
    we are trying to "make it".  Each of us belongs.  I hope this will
    give you some food for thought.
    
    Regards-
    Barb

    re .27
    
         When to offer help.  This puzzles a lot of folks.  Rule of
    thumb:  When you see someone trying to accomplish something, mentally
    count 5 seconds and observe their progress.  If none, offer assistance.
    Don't be surprised if you get blasted.  Some handicapped people
    have nasty dispositions or are moody, just like "regular" people.
                                                             
         I am a handicapped person.  You are a handicapped person. 
    ALL GOD'S CHILLUN ARE HANDICAPPED PERSONS.  Some handicaps are more
    easily identifiable.  Some handicaps have a greater impact than
    others, but I've never met a person that wasn't handicapped
    in some way.  There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.
    
         About people who are visually and hearing impaired.  People
    who wear glasses are handicapped.  People who wear hearing-aids
    are handicapped.  These devices have saturated society to
    the degree that only vanity might prevent their use.  Wheelchairs,
    breathing apparatus and some orthopedic devices have not yet gained
    such social acceptance.  Visually impaired people are not totally
    blind.  Hearing impaired persons are not totally deaf.
    
         I have been in a wheelchair due to a neuro-muscular condition
    since the 3rd grade.  I have been married twice.  I have a son and
    a step-daughter.  I serve as a hospital chaplain once a week.  I
    pursuing the Diaconal Ministry through my church.  I'm Chairperson
    of the Board of the local commission on peace and social justice.
    Additionally, I work my heart out for DEC (and love it!).
    
         I wish I could do more, but I'm handicapped, you know.