Conference quark::human_relations-v1

My unscientific observation is that people who relocate tend
(especially in the first six months thereafter) to be out sick
more often and frequently let pain-in-the-ass relocation-related
chores cut into their work time.

I hope we can all learn to be tolerant of this.  Relocating is
undoubtedly a major stress...let's try not to add to this stress
for any of our newer fellow workers that are going through it.

    
       I know the feeling and the trauma of relocation goes for wherever
    you are moving from/to. 
    
       I live away from my home area in the UK and have done so for
    10 years - while I appreciate the distance involved is not so great
    and I can visit "home" much more often, there are still things that
    I miss (and I suppose there always will be).
    
        I am considering moving back to the North of England and the
    things that are stopping me are things like all my friends in the
    South, familiarity with my present area, some family here,
    places that I go..... the list goes on and on. The point is when
    I started to consider moving back - I realised all the things that
    I love about where I live now !
    
        Substitutes are never like what you are (or were) accustomed to.
    See the benefits of what you have now and develop those. That way,
    you remember the old with fondness and appreciate the new with
    excitement.
    
        It worked for me anyway.
    
    Steve

    "You can never go home again" (a quote from Kerouac, I think) - that
    realisation, if it comes, is also bad.
    
    If you do try to re-relocate, or even find yourself by accident back in
    the old location for an extended period, there's a dissonance between
    the old memories and the way things are there at the moment.   Just
    have to live with that, I think. 
    
    I've moved jobs 3-4 times around the UK (for different firms) - each
    time seemed to be worse than the last, even without close dependents
    etc.   Not a process I'd recommend - or does it get easier if you
    practice a LOT? 

    I grew up in the mid-West (actually the north-central because the
    term "mid-west" is used incorrectly to mean the farm belt states
    to the East of the Mississippi).  I went to school in Calif. and
    Arizona and have been in Mass. for 12 years now.
    
    The hardest move was into Mass - I'm still not over it.  The think
    I find so hard is the way the state treats residents and the way
    the stores treat customers.  Basically, when compared to the way
    these groups are treated in other places I've lived, residents and
    consumers are treated as a pain-in-the-neck to those who should be serving
    them and I often get the feeling that stores would rather I take
    my business elsewhere so they don't have to trouble themselves to
    even ring up my purchases.  The overriding impression of the "New
    England" philosophy is one of independence even at the cost of
    effeciency and reason to say nothing of neighborlyness.
    
    Now, all of you born and breed New Englanders can flame away - but
    unless you have lived somewhere else for a time (not just visited)
    you will be just blowing smoke.
    
    Sally
    

    	Oh yuck, the relocation blues/shuffle. How well I know about this. 
I'm currently in the midst of relocating for the third time with DEC. I
hope to never ever have to do it again. The first time was most traumatic
having moved from Vermont to western Massachusetts. MA and VT are 2
entirely different countries even tho' they're both in New England. I
didn't have a real hard time adjusting but there were certainly
things I missed about home and being able to be-bop in on friends whenever
I wanted. And of course, home is only 4 hours away. My biggest headache
was trying to find the right places to buy things. I've been in MA for 2 
years and I still don't consider it to be home. 
	The biggest problem I have now is with DEC. Very few management types 
know anything about relocation policies. It's next to impossible to get 
answers to questions as usually whomever you ask tells you to go elsewhere. 
I've found, for the most part that they really don't want to deal with it, 
and having never moved themselves they don't have any idea what a hassle it is.
Luckily, I know the policy by heart so I can do most things myself, but
there are still hassles like getting signatures.
	Someone mentioned the lost time. DEC allows you so many days to get
things done but usually it's not enough. It takes 2 days to pack and move
normally. Then you have to get settled and wait around home for things to
get connected. Then there's new registrations and licenses and in general
stuff like getting new things that you need. All in all, it's a pain in
the butt and a high stress situation. Hopefully most people understand this
and don't get too bent out of shape when new people are out.

Bahama Mama - currently in the midst of the relocation blues

    Re: .7
    	> The thing I find so hard is the way the state treats residents
    and the way the stores treat customers....
    
    I just moved here (Mass.) from the midwest also, and I've noticed a real
    difference in the service around here.  I don't know if this is
    because it's difficult to find help or what.  I do know that the
    couple of times that I've had a friendly waittress, more often that
    not, she was not from New England.  The way people drive out here
    isn't exactly friendly either! :-)
    
    My biggest problem has been the lack of a group of friends just
    to do things with.  It's hard to build up that type of friendship
    that you have with your old friends that know you for what you are
    and what you've been. (Am I making sense?) 
    
    I'm glad to know that it's ok to still feel homesick.  Sigh.
    
    Annette

    re .7,.9
    
    If its any solace to you, I'm a native New Englander and I don't
    like the service either. It isn't generally true of waitresses
    and I usually react by keeping my money in my pocket. When I see
    problems like that, I usually suspect the management. Large discount
    department stores are usually the worst. You almost always get
    courteous and friendly service at small neighborhood businesses.
    But then, they don't hire bodies off the street, they hire folks
    like themselves.
    
    Bob Mc
    

Some of you folks ought to make a trip to Vermont. All of New England is 
not all that bad.

Bahama Mama

    Re:  .11
    
    Yes, I have noticed that Vermont is better.  Wish I lived in Vermont
    instead of Mass.  Anyone know of any jobs in Burlington, Vt? 
    
    Sally
    

    Well... After initiating this note topic I am quite pleased to find
    other Digits having similar reactions about relocation.  On a lighter
    note, being from Texas, I am constantly reminded of the different
    slang terms used in everyday conversation such as (for me anyway)
    Howdy, Y'all and "I'm fixin to go....".  Another that immediately
    come to mind are Tennis Shoes (Sneakahs!).
    
    This brings me to another avenue of discussion - Why do people from
    different parts of the U.S. have different values systems? One would think
    that the value system within a idealistic border would be similar
    but having experienced the differences (and others who have resonded
    apparently have too) I wonder what societal force drives those differences?
    
    An example that comes to mind as documented in some of the initial
    resonses is the "friendliness" of the people.  In can be generally
    said that in Texas most people are friendly, but having experienced
    other environments I now find this to be a superficial friendliness.
    People are easy to get to know but except in a few cases a close
    friendship is rare.  
    
    Again in generalities - New Englanders are very difficult to get
    to know.  After almost 3 years, I know very few of my neighbors
    well.  Yet it is said that when you do develop a close friendship
    with a New Englander, it will last forever.
    
    I use these only as examples to explain my issue.  What do all
    of "Y'all" transplanted and native New Englanders think?
    
    
    Fixin' to LoggOff......
    
    
    Bob
    

    Re: .9


	I think that New Englander's aren't necessarily unfriendly, they're
just very reserved.  I lived in Texas before coming here and noticed it took
much longer to make friends here than it did in Texas.  It was funny:  after
spending a number of years here, and getting used to the reserved environment,
I spent some time back in North Dakota with relatives and was positively
shocked when I passed a total stranger on the street and they said, "Hi, how
ya doin'?"!  I managed a pleasant reply but was too stupefied to continue wal-
king, I had to stop and think about what had just happened!!!    ;-)


	Sure it's ok to feel homesick!  But there's lots of ways to make new
friends, among them getting involved in the various clubs and activities that
DEC has to offer.  Join in the fun!


	Good luck!


Brian

        Gee, as a long-haired hippy, I've tended to find New England and
        the Maritimes more friendly than the South, Midwest or the
        Southwest. The people in many of those places seemed to be
        friendly if you matched the norm, but seemed to not be too
        tolerant of those outside the definition of "us". In the
        Northeast the people are reserved, but seem, at least to me, to
        prejudge less.
        
        Guess its just point of view.
        
        JimB. 

I came here from California (Silicon Valley) in 1980.  I came here for DEC,
and for New England.  I am a third generation native of California, so I left
a lot of family back there.  When my wife and I sat in our hotel room the 
night after my day of interviews, we went over the pros and cons of relocation
very carefully, and New England won out by a large margin, and I cannot say 
that after 6.5 years we have been disappointed.  There are negative aspects
of this area.  I don't like the provincial attitude of the city and town
governments.  I don't like the open racism of a lot of the people (I would not
live here if I were black).  The winters are a little long. I don't like the
registry of motor vehicles (though it has improved).  I don't like the slow
moving state bureaucracy.  I don't like the highly visible class system.  

On the positive side, I like to be able to live in a nice environment and still
be only a short drive from work, from shopping, from a major city.  In the
high tech areas of California, you have to live in the smog, in unbelievable
crowding, or you have to commute in bad traffic for over an hour to get 
anywhere.  I like the peer situation and the space for my kids better here.
I find the people to be more real, and have a more realistic outlook on their
lives.  In the large metropolitan areas of California, there is a huge amount
of discontent among most of the people, and they are only friendly when
friendly is in vogue.  I made more quality friendships here in the first year
than I did in ten years in the industry there, where every other person was
into some realestate scam, trying to recruite you into Amway, asking you to
join a pyramid club, or looking down their nose at you because you didn't 
drive and expensive european car.  I like the suburbs.  There are no real 
suburbs in California, just huge megacities filled with people clawing their 
way toward plastic nirvana.  

I have not visited many places in this country (something I would like to
remedy), so I don't know how this area compares with the south, midwest,
etc.  I was born in California, went to school there, got married there, and
my kids were born there.  It is an exciting place to visit, and has spectacular
natural beauty.  But as a native, I must say that with all of its faults, this
is a better place to live, to meet good people, and to raise kids.

    re .7, .9, .13, et al
    
    As a native New Englander (yankee...) who has spent some time in
    the mid-west, sheese, you're right; when I ask for something from
    a waitress/er "out west", it seems they think I am terribly cold 
    and unfriendly.
    
    I guess I got the (bad) habit of talking down to people who are paid
    to serve me.  It works in MA, though.  If you talk to a store clerk
    as though you were nobility and YOU knew all the rules of etiquette,
    boy you get good service (or _I_ do anyway).  Do that in Kentucky
    and you get _no_ service!!
    
    Last time I was in Kentucky though, the man filling my car with
    gas said something about isn't it nice to be visiting the beautiful
    state of Kentucky, and that made my day so much nicer.  I guess
    you have to be friendly with friendly people, and aloof as h***
    with, er, less friendly people.
    
    Lee

re: California

Folks I met in California were just to fast-paced for me.  They
were friendlier than New Englanders, but not in as comfortable
a way as Mid-Westerners.  (I should say that this is generally
meant to refer to people in the San Francisco Bay area, since
that was where I lived in California.)

I was frequently astounded at how someone would corner me at a
party and pour out explicit details of their life (that I would
never dream of telling someone on first meeting).  But getting
to know someone like that would often never go any further.  If
your astrological sign, your political leanings, and your sexual
habits were all a "correct" match, the person might follow up.
Otherwise you would be written off, in spite of having been made
unexpectedly privy to what in the East would be considered very
intimate information about the person.

Plus there were a lot of lunatics roaming the Bay area when I was
there (like the Zodiac Killers, etc.).  Up north of the Bay, I had
some friends living around the Ukiah-Boonville-Philo area (in the
mountains more or less).  That seemed less high-pressure and weird
--although I found out later that the Rev. Jim Jones and his cult
were hiding out in that area around the same time, before they
migrated to Guyana.

I would consider moving back to California though.  San Francisco
is a much more liveable city than Boston, as cities go.  And the
accessibility to natural beauty is much greater.  There's no easy
drive to places like Mt. Tamalpais and Muir Woods from Boston.
New England has about 4 weeks of Spring and 4 weeks of Autumn that
beat out California, but I'll take the California climate for the
rest of the year.  And Cape Cod and Maine are great, but they're
not Big Sur.

    Re: .19
    
    Thank you, Marge, I was about to say the same thing.  While one
    can get general impressions of social styles that differ in various
    areas, the people are individuals - and, in this restless era, it
    is becoming much less common for people to live much of their lives
    in one area.
    
    I would attribute the uneven quality of service, especially in the
    low-paying jobs such as restaurant and retail help, to the low
    unemployment level in the area.  Certainly in Southern New Hampshire
    the restaurants are continuously advertising for "help wanted" -
    at McDonalds, your placemat is a job application!  Because the
    teenagers (typically) who are interested in providing good service
    can usually find a better-paying job in industry, those that are
    left are often surly.
    
    There are people of all sorts anywhere you go.  I've been living
    in New England for twenty years, and have found people who are warm
    and open as well as those who are cold and snooty.  I imagine this
    observation would hold no matter where I looked.
    
    One final note - it is no more proper to talk about "New England"
    as a homogenous area than it is, say, California.  Even within
    individual states there are vast differences.
    
    					Steve

    re .19, well said about the danger of over-promoting stereotypes
    (which can be a useful short-hand way of thinking, though...)  Is
    there a value, though, in talking about regional/national cultural
    variations, in describing the "relocation"/emigration blues?
    
    Interested to see several replies here criticising standards of service
    in shops in New England - I've heard similar things from mid-Westerners
    who relocated to Ayrshire for a while (they found people unhelpful).
    Don't know whether larger European sites (Reading/London/Geneva) are
    comparable, but I'd suggest that Europeans in country area shops, are
    probably a lot less overtly helpful than many Americans.
    
    I'd say it's to do with the well-developed British class system, or the
    slightly less-developed but still thriving French/German/etc
    equivalents (they had a bad war to shake things up in the last 40
    years). 
    
    Any US relocatees with European experience care to comment?

    I relocated from California to New England 2.5 years ago.  No doubt
    about it, there's a culture shock all right!
    
    Like .16 and .18, I find faults (okay, freduian slip) in California
    (particularly Los Angeles).  It has it's good points and it's bad
    points, but most of the points seem to be bad.
    
    Los Angeles is incredibly crowded.  The pace is VERY fast.  The smog is
    the pits (ever ride a bicycle from Hollywood to the beach? Your lungs
    don't forgive you for days).  The crime is pretty bad.  The streets
    aren't too safe at night (some aren't safe during the day either). The
    place is so huge, it takes a while to get from one place to another
    simply due to sheer distance.
    
    On the other hand, LA has lots of activities.  The mountains, the
    beaches, the desert ... all in close proximity.  Personally, I find the
    climate a bit bland for me (and a bit too hot), but probably better
    than the sub-freezing temperatures that New England experiences.
    Besides, compared to the California coast, New England beaches are
    really awful.
    
    What I miss the most: In 19 years of Los Angeles living, I made some
    close friends.  It's hard to replace 19 year old friendships.  I keep
    in contact with them, though, and that helps.
    
    I agree with others in this note: Relocation is pretty traumatic. Hotel
    living leaves quite a bit to be desired. Having your life uprooted IS
    stressful, but it can be worth it.
    
    What I like most about New England: The wide areas, the forests, the
    expanse of land.  New England (except for Boston and surrounding areas)
    really is very pretty land.  The pace is slow and easy.  The air is
    clean (at least to Los Angeles standards).  Smaller towns are much
    nicer to live in.
    
    In the end, I moved out because of one decision: if things went really
    sour, and I really didn't like it here, I could always move back.
    Sometimes I think about moving back, but I doubt I will.
    
    What surprises me about New England (Boston excluded): How people
    complain of traffic.  For the most part (there are a few exceptions,
    but not many), traffic out here slows down a commute perhaps 5 or 10
    minutes (at least in New Hampshire).  Traffic in Los Angeles slows a
    commute down easily by an hour.  Considering the difference, I never
    complain about traffic here.

    Jeff,
    	
    	I think the problem with traffic is more along the lines of
    seeing a slow little town turn into a major thruway. This has happened
    in Billerica. What was once a nice, peaceful town (except for The
    Barons) has turned into a traffic nightmare because of Rt.3's traffic
    headaches.  I used to drive from Billerica to Maynard every day.
    It would take me about 30-40 minutes 6 years ago.. Now it would take
    about 45-55 minutes.
    
    	I wish DEC had a secret plant WAY up in the White Mountain region.
    Then we could get away from all of this.
    
    						mike

    
    
    	Don't tempt me.. If it wasn't for the fact that what little
    family I have here in the States is my immediate family and I don't
    want to leave them (just yet) I would probably move.. (Although,
    I was thinking more along the lines of an Engineering site in the
    mountains. I wonder if we can get Scotty to beam LKG to Franconia
    Notch?)
    	
    						mike