Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Perhaps he asked for your opinion but I'll bet what he really 
    wants is your support.  Often time what appears to be a 
    "terrible mistake" is just a concept that doesn't fit into our
    conditioning.  I know of people who always did the practical 
    thing...what was expected of them...what statistics said was the
    "right thing to do" and who turned out very lonely and unhappy.
    Shakespere was right when he said that "what might have been" 
    are the saddest words of tongue or pen.  
    
    Life is to be lived.  Our mistakes are as important to us as our
    joys.  We all have to live with the results of our actions and 
    the results of our inactions.  If he were my friend,...and I cared
    about him...I'd tell him to go for it, and I'd wish him well.

I agree with Bob.  He asked for you opinion, he should be prepared for
an honest answer.  Tell him what you feel, and why you feel that way,
and leave it at that.  If Brian is really sure he's doing the right
thing, he'll do it anyway and he won't hold it against you.  It's possible,
though, that he has some of the doubts that you have, but is reluctant
to admit them to himself.  Your concern may cause him to think a little
more about what he is really getting into.  As Bob said so succinctly,
"that's what friends are for".

Carl

Perhaps it would be useful to ask yourself just why he is asking you for
your opinion,  just what he wants to get from hearing your opinion.  To me,
it sounds that he himself is unsure about it;  and possibly he is asking
for someone (you) to make a decision for him. 

    
    You should be honest with Brian.  He asked for your opinion.  You
    think he is making a mistake, and you should say so.  My only
    suggestion is that you make sure you have a better reason than "she's
    only 17" ready when he asks you why.
    
    DFW

    If your friend is going to the Azores, hes got to be either in the
    Air Force or Navy.  A couple of suggestions, 
    
    First , if hes in the Navy and hes what is referred as a "sea going
    rate" (job) the many times he has to go to sea for 3 - 6 months
    will put a strain on a mature relationship. Since I dont know either
    him or her, Iam in no position to say how "mature" this can be.
    But as Bob pointed out people can be inmature at any age. I was in
    the Navy and watched a lot of good ones go down the drain cause the man
    was away so much.
    
    The Air Force is a bit better in that most places he will go 
    she would be able to go with him. The amount of deployments
    and length of time away would be of much shorter durations also.
    This would allow the relation to stay strong since they would 
    have more time together.
    
    My personal opinion says that she is way too young to really
    know what she wants in life yet. (please note before I get 
    flamed that my personal beleaf is that NO ONE 17 years old,
    male or female knows what they want in life) A "in the service"
    marriage can get real strained a lot of times moreso than in civilian
    life. Ive been to Lajes base in the Azores, and Ill verify
    its a REAL quiet boring place with not too much to do aside 
    from your job. Maybe this is why he wants to bring someone
    with him, then again a serious commitment such as marriage
    to a person of such a young age I dont feel is a good idea.     
    
    
                                Bob B
    
    
                        

    But also remember that a too-strong opinion against may force
    him to do it anyway.  I agree with others, though, that his asking
    your opinion is probably an attempt to justify an action he's not
    entirely comfortable with.
    
    Rather than put it in terms of a simple "No", turn it into something
    positive.  Tell him that for both of their sakes, they should
    allow their relationship to solidify if it can while they're
    apart.  If it doesn't work, then the separation will be much less
    painful.  If it does, then they'll have an excellent basis for
    a long and happy life together.  Simply marrying this girl then
    splitting isn't going to magically make her (or him) loyal.
    
    					Steve

        First off, I agree that you should give your opinion since you
        were asked. Second, I also agree that you should be even handed
        in expressing your opinion. By this I mean that you shouldn't
        tell him that it is absolutely wrong, but just that you have
        very serious reservations and why. You don't want to challenge
        him to prove you wrong or to undermine his chances if he decides
        to go ahead anyway. 
        
        Now, being the nosey sort, I'll give you my opinion. Marriages
        fail today much more than they ought or have to. There are two
        reasons for this. First, many people don't put the effort into
        making what could and should be a viable marriage work. (We have
        no way of knowing how they will fare on this one.) Second, many
        marriages are doomed from day 1 because the two people aren't
        suited for each other, they don't really share the love, trust
        and commitment necessary to make it work. This is the one that
        scares me about your friend. 
        
        You say they met only a month ago, that she is quite young, and
        that they are marrying to beat an external dead-line (before he
        goes away). All of these bode ill, to my mind. It is hard at 17
        to know either yourself or another person well enough to be sure
        that you are really willing to make a commitment that you will
        keep for the rest of your life. It is possible for a good and
        solid marriage to start at 17 or younger, but it takes an
        unusually mature charcter and strong will. 
        
        Also, it is next to impossible to be sure about such an
        important commitment in just a month. A decision to marry really
        ought to be based on a long enough relationship to establish a
        firm basis. This is especially true if the people are young. A
        17 year old one month into a relationship is at a real
        disadvantage. Add to this the fact that they are talking a short
        engagement (2 months) as well and there just isn't enough time
        for a really considered decision.
        
        Beyond this there is the fact that they are talking about being
        married now not because they are absolutely convinced that they
        want to married and no amount of time will change that opinion,
        but because he is leaving in a couple of months. That kind of
        time pressure causes mistakes. They mustn't let outside
        pressures force them to act preciptously.
        
        Beyond all of the reasons for feeling that the decision can't be
        sufficiently informed and considered there are the special
        difficulties that they will face. Any marriage is hard work, but
        some are even more, and this one will be more. The facts that
        generate these are numerous: She hasn't finished school. She
        hasn't, presumably, lived on her own and developed a strong base
        of self-sufficiency. They will be separated by his military
        career. The military requires a commitment greater than that of
        another job and that commitment can compete with the marriage.
        
        You asked in your note "How do I tell him that a 'perfect
        marriage' as he puts it does not happen overnight?" May I
        suggest that you just tell him that plainly, perhaps in just
        those words. Successful marriages DON'T happen overnight. They
        are hard work, and there are real obstacles to overcome. When
        you have more than the usual number of obstacles they are more
        work. This is a plain fact of life that people seem to not know.
        AND IF WE DON'T TELL OUR FRIENDS these plain facts how will they
        ever know? Why should it be a big secret that marriage takes
        work? 
        
        JimB.

    I know you guys are all being very practical but,...  I guess what
    I was trying to say is....there is so little happiness, and so little
    love, and so little time.  And no matter how well we plan anything, there
    are no guarentees, things so seldom work out the way we plan.
    Sometimes I think that love is a gift,  it doesn't happen that often
    or that easy and if you get a chance, you should grab it and not let go.
                                         
    Then, even if it doesn't last forever (how many things last forever
    besides the Taj Mahal?), at least he was happy for awhile....and ...
    what more can we really ask for from life?  Time is a really wierd
    thing (I know...so am I :-) ), I think we should all live for today
    and take as much joy from the moment as we can.
                                                   

        Yeh, absolutely--take all the love you can, BUT (couldn't you
        just hear that one) love and marraige ain't the same thing.
        Marriage is a life-time commitment "not to be entered into
        lightly or ill-advisedly". He shouldn't dump the girl because
        she's young.They should work to make a real go of it, but one
        step at a time, building it up. It doesn't just happen, and
        taking short-cuts with your life means you have to pay up
        later.
        
        JimB.

    Just keep one thing in mind - anyone who offers advice has to at
    the same time be prepared to accept the responsibility of their
    counsel.  How about tryin some active listening instead and trying
    to find out where he is coming from?  Sometimes in doing this we
    are able to help others see for themselves what their motives really
    are.

    Sue, Tell him the truth and explain why. I once asked my closest
    friend what he thought before I married and he told me that I had
    made a good choice. Then when things passes thru the fan and we
    broke up, he told me he wanted to say NO STAY AWAY. when I asked
    him why he dident say that when I asked before and he said 
    I dident want to makie you mad or hurt your feelings.
    I wish he had taken the risk on both points.
    
    My opinion is that while in love 90% of the brain takes vacation
    and rational decisions become difficult.
    
    Take the risk a friend is worth it!
    
    -Jerry
    	

    Well folks, looks like this note just ended abruptly!  Brian 
    popped the big question on Katrina and her parents this weekend.
    
    We never did get to talk to him so I suppose now we don't have
    to kick ourselves in the butt for interfering?!?  I sure hope that
    Brian never hits us with the old "why didn't you tell me" trick!
    Oh well, guess at 24 you should be responsible for your actions
    right,  at 17 however it is questionable!
    
    One last tickler...
    
    Brian was telling us that Katrina is really excited about getting
    married and moving to the little island off the east coast!  She
    also said that she was really looking forward to ironing his shirts
    and making him dinner and cookies and sewing stripes on his uniforms
    and ??guess what else??.....yep, you got it...having babies!  BARF!!

    
    
    Sue:
    
    I just have to ask - where are Katrina's parents in all this?
    Seventeen can't be legal in your state (which is it, btw?).  If
    they put the nix on this for even a couple of months, it might
    give Brian and Katrina the time for their hormones to cool off
    and rational minds to prevail.
    
    Remember, it's not over 'til the "I do's" are said!
    
    Vicki

I ***definitely*** feel that you should give them 'a piece of your mind' :-)
The most betrayed feeling I've ever had is having a friend tell me that they
knew it would not work out, but they never said anything...

What'daya think I keep friends around for? Hatracks??? :-)

Jim. 

    
    ....they make liers out of all of us....
    

    RE. 14
    Katrina's parents are well aware of what is going on.  Believe
    it or not they think is *wonderful*. (We kind of think that it
    is a good way to say astalabyebye!)  The age for consent is 16 in
    Colorado and by the way for the ones who have been wondering how
    old I am, I am not the motherly type for Brian, unfortunately! 
    My husband is 25 and I am 24.
                   
    Anyway I have made a decision this afternoon and I am going to
    speak my mind to Brian whether he likes it or not!  I am not going
    to go at it with the "you shouldn't do it" approach but rather with
    the "think about how serious this is" approach.  My true feeling
    is that Brian is scared that there are no women in the Azores and
    he feels he has to take one with him!  
    
    Thanks for the help, and wish me luck!
    
                                           Sue

    Way to go Sue! Hey if he gets PO'd at least you can be comforted
    in the fact he asked and you told. Down the road Brian will be glad
    he had friends that would care enough about him to speak their mind.
    
    I hope it works out well for him which ever way he decides.
    
    -jerry
    

    .19 yup maybe to a state where he will get busted hunh?
    
   

    RE .13
    
    I think that you should definately speak your mind!  I was in a
    similar situation when I was 17.  Luckily I had the sense enough
    to say no, even though I was in love.
    
    I was going with a guy (and I knew him for a year, not just 1 month)
    and he enlisted in the navy.  Well, he was scared and wanted someone
    there for him/with him, he didn't want to be alone and without a
    family.  We talked about getting married, but he wanted to do it
    before he went in.  I'm really glad now that I didn't do it.  People
    really do change in two years especially when you're only 17.  I
    realize now that it never would have worked.  We still went together
    for a while after he went in, but both of change and things didn't
    work out.
    
    Too bad he already asked her to get married.  One alternative would
    be that they live together first.  You really get to know a person
    that way!  Depending on what happened with that get married after
    a while.
    
    I just hope he realizes what he's doing with his life.  I guess
    that it doesn't really matter as long as he's happy, since that's
    all that matters.
    
    After you talk to him and speak you're mind I hope that you will
    accept his decision and support him in whatever choice he does make.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Debbi

    Geeeeezz!  This story is almost sounding like a soap opera!
    I really haven't had much of a chance to talk to Brian but
    I beginning to wonder if he hasn't just flipped his lid.  While
    talking with a mutual friend, I found out that Katrina dropped
    out of high school last year and her parents are looking to 
    ditch her cuz she has never had a job and all she does is laze
    around the house.  I'm really shocked that this is happening.  Brian
    seems to have told a few white lies already to cover for her!
    
    Personally, I am out of this!  If he is stupid enough to be
    covering for her then obviously his eyes are open to see what
    he is doing. 

  Oh, now he gets to be her knight in shining armor...
  
  Awfully hard image to resist.
  
  
  						Terza
  
  

    Just after we were married, my wife's kid brother informed us he
    was going to marry a divorced woman who was several years older
    than him.  Our cause for alarm was that I had "gone with" this woman
    and knew that she had problems.  The reason she gave me for divorcing
    her husband was that he was a sex maniac, in that he wanted to have
    sex every week.  I'm not kidding, or exagerating.  Needless to say
    we were a little concerned and tried to caution him against rushing
    into anything.  When she found out he had talked to us, she broke
    it off.  Maybe we should've just minded our own business because
    within a couple of years he married another older divorced woman
    and they've now been separated but not divorced for several years.  
    

    Definately end of story,  Brian and Katrina were married
    this saturday.  We received an invitation on thursday that
    said.....
    
         "We will be united in Love" please join us but please
    refrain from taking pictures and bring only monetary gifts.
    
    Ann Landers would have keeled over twice!
    
    

    Re: .26
    
    Send them a nice card saying that you've donated money in their
    name to your favorite charity (in this case, I would pick
    Planned Parenthood!)  They are not only tacky, they are rude and
    inconsiderate.
    					Steve

    No, Steve, perhaps they're more practical than their youth would
    indicate.  If they're going to be moved to some unknown location
    by the military, I'd say that asking for cash is quite reasonable.
    It takes very little space to pack it and it's a lot more flexible
    than most gifts.  It seems that they don't know too much about
    what to expect at their destination, so perhaps this *is* the best
    gift to give them.
    
    --Louise

    Re: .28
    
    Cash may be indeed the best gift, but it is considered extremely
    tacky to ask for it.  They would probably have received more cash
    by NOT asking than they will otherwise.
    
    In general, a wedding invitation is not supposed to be a demand
    for gifts.  You can say "no gifts" (in any of several elegant
    wordings), but to attempt to specify on the invitation what people
    ought to give you (as if they should give anything at all) is
    uncouth.
    
    Now if you call up the happy couple and ask them what they want,
    and then they ask for cash, that's more reasonable.
    
    Besides - an invitation received three days before the wedding is
    an insult.
    
    Am I the only one who feels this way?
    				Steve

    re .28:
    
    No, Steve, you are not the only one who feels this way. Miss Manners
    agrees with you, too. (As do I, but what's my opinion worth?)
    
    	Jon

Where do we draw the line? 

 As I read the controversial invitation, it says "if you want to bring a
present, bring money rather than goods". Why does this offend people any more
than the unwritten (but fairly well understood) rule that one brings a present
to a wedding as a matter of course. 

 If I were to receive such an invitation, and if I were amongst those who were
expected to bring a gift, then I wouldn't mind such a blunt statement since it
would make my "shopping" easier, and I hate buying formal presents. To me,
(while I admit the phrasing leaves a little to be desired) the statement is no
more distasteful than the more traditional 'Registry of Wedding Presents is
being maintained at Niemann Marcus'. 

 I'm not flaming (for once(-:) at those who find it distasteful, but I'm 
curious as to why it is more distasteful than the traditional organised
extortion!

			Nigel

    I think my attitude about this invitation grows stronger as
    the days pass.  I am a very homey person, I received many beautiful
    gifts for our home at my wedding all of which I cherish and will 
    probably cherish for a long time.  I love to look at a picture or 
    a vase or anything for that matter and say "What a thoughtful gift 
    that was".  The memory of my wedding day as well as all the people
    who shared it with me stays with me all the time.
    
    This crap about "society conditioning us to bring gifts to weddings"is
    bologna.  If you want to bring a gift to wish the couple well that
    is your perogative and if you wish to bring only money than that
    is your perogative also but under no circumstance should a gift
    receiver specify that the gift that you bring be from your wallet.
    
    The invitation that I received insulted me as well as hurt my feelings.
    I was going to make a hanging for their wall with a bride and groom
    and their names and the day they were married and send it to them
    in the mail when I had it finished.  
    
    Why should I work four or five hours to give them money to go out
    and buy a bag of groceries that will mean absolutely nothing to them.
    
    Flaming on now!
    
    A GIFT COMES FROM YOUR HEART...NOT NECESSARILY YOUR WALLET!
    
    Flaming off.....
    
                                     Thank you I am finished
                                                         Sue
           

    ...and how would you feel if you asked about your gift sometime
    later and were told "well, military movers aren't too careful,
    it was broken/lost.  I was so sad - it was beautiful and you
    put a lot of work into it."  Military movers, from what I heard,
    are NOT the most careful - depending on the rank you hold and
    this guy holds a low one from your description.  Also, there are
    rather strict limits on how much weight you are allowed to move.
    I'd guess that if you gave them something they couldn't use, it
    would be sold or left with parents.  I've seen lots of ads in
    classified sections for "beautiful asparagus steamer - new - 
    wedding present" and the like.
    
    --Louise

    
    	As a recently married person I understand the problems with
    wedding gifts.  There is nothing worse than getting an expensive
    gift that you can't use.  As with any gift all you can do is thank
    the person and tell them that you appreciate the gift.
    	Cash is a convenient gift, and it did come in real useful.  However
    we also got lots of fancy stuff that we would not normally buy.
    When it comes down to crystal or the mortgage, guess what wins.
    	A good solution is to register for gifts.  We went into Jordan
    Marsh one Saturday and picked out a list of things that we would
    like.  It worked out well, except that we received *23* servings
    of china.  Some people forgot to check things off the list.
    Jordan Marsh was very good about returning gifts for store credit.
    	 I in general prefer to give gifts, but have started giving
    cash to my friends who are getting married.  If people want to give
    gifts they should at least take the time to find out something about
    the person.
    						=Ralph=
    
    (buy the way does anyone want to make an offer on a large modern
    	painting with lots of green squares and circles?  Never used-
    	wedding gift.  How about a battery operated garlic grinder?)
    

Just my 2 cents...

Cash, Gift Certificates, etc...  are horrible presents; there is no heart
in them.  But that's been said already...

Gift Registrys, Lists, etc... are horrible on the recievers part.  I don't
like being told what to give...

If I'm going to give a gift, I will be willing to do the research to find out
what *would* be a good gift.  

If an occasion is coming up where I may be recieving a gift, I make sure,
subtly, that there are plenty of ideas for gifts; yet I am always surprised. If
someone comes out and asks my what I want for a gift, I tell them kindly, that I
will appreciate any gift that they take the thought to pick out, and if they
really can't think of a gift, then should they really be giving me a gift?

In the situation at hand, I would suggest that gifts either travel well, or I
would accept gifts or money for specific purposes.  I would not explicitly ask
for it, though.  I would not ask for, nor do I like money gifts, however, if
someone gave me a gift of money earmarked for say, 'for your first home', I
would be thrilled!

Jim. 

    Having been in the Army all my life(dad,mom,self, ex) I have traveled
    around the world 3 times and military movers have always done the
    packing.  They are very responsible and professional.  But, I found
    that the items that were usuable in each country were different.
    Having been in the situation that the newlyweds are in(marry and
    leave the country) I found that so many of the gifts could not be
    used.  Some countries' unfurnished apartments are truely unfurnished
    no light fixtures, electrical wiring, etc. which resulted in a tremendous
    outlay of cash to set up the house.  Some countries water is non-
    drinkable so then we had to buy 20 gal water jugs, transformers
    were needed for electrical appliances.  Maybe the bride and groom
    felt that some wedding guest wouldn't know what would be site-specific
    useable in their unique situation?  Therefore the money would be
    more useful till they saw what kind of housing they would get where
    they are going and what could be used? 
    So I sound like a devils advocate here, but I thought I'd share
    a different point of view from past experience.

    vivian

    There's nothing that REQUIRES you to give a gift just because you
    are invited to a social event, by the way!
    
    A while back, we recived a wedding invitation from someone we never
    heard of.... Not actually being one to follow the above dictum (though
    if you ALL start sending me invitations, I'll probably start ;-),
    we bought her something (brass Sabbath candlesticks, since the name
    was Jewish).  We found out a long time later that the bride was
    a daughter of some distinct in-law of my husband's who had divorced
    Paul's relative (a cousin?  I forget) long ago, remarried, and had
    this daughter!  My husband's sisters did not send gifts, though
    they were invited also, since they figured out who this "relative"
    was sooner than we did.
    
    Of course, if you don't send a gift (or just send a card instead),
    some "relatives" may think you are a cheapskate, but you can guess
    what the talk about the above-mentionned situation had to say! 
    (The family all thought I was a "soft touch" for sending something in
    this case.)
               
    I hope she at least LIKED the candlesticks!  At least they are
    something that will eventually get used in any Jewish home (I have
    three pairs of them myself), so they weren't a very imaginative
    gift!