Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I am in total agreement, you should give only when you want to and
    not because you feel you "have to".  How much more pleasure it can
    give when you present someone with a gift just for being a nice
    person or because you love them.  How nice to receive a gift from
    someone because you're a friend.
    
    I have given flowers to friends if they are unhappy, it doesn't
    stop the feeling, but it makes them feel cared for.
    
    

I was just considering starting a note on this...

I enjoy the draw a name out of a hat gift giving at parties, but I don't feel
that it is the same as personally giving a gift to a particular person.

I hate it when someone asks "What do you want for Christmas?"  I feel that if
they don't know me well enough to know what I might like for Christmas, and they
don't want to do some research, then they should not be giving me a gift for
Christmas.   And then there are lots of sort of 'generic' gifts that you can
safely be sure would be appreciated, or you can find out relatively easy.

Now the person who wants/needs a gift/something, *can* make it difficult or easy
for the other person.  The more you share with each other, the easier time you
would have knowing what the other person wants/needs, and when they could
emotionally use a gift.  On the other hand, if there is not enough
communication, I would not be surprised that you have to ask.

Jim. 

Rather than concentrating on the gift-giving aspect (what DO you want for
Christmas, my Dear?), consider the following dialoge as an example of what
I mean:

  SHE:	Do you think I did the right thing?

  HE:   (after a moment of thought) Yes, you done good

  SHE:  Oh, you're just saying that. If you really meant it, I wouldn't have
	had to ask you!!!


That is, is the opinion (support, love, whatever) invalidated because it was
solicited?

	Nigel

    	i tend to agree with *the eagle*, originality is crucial, because
    	as i see it, the giver is "giving of himself", and i think the
    	gift should be representative of the person & relationship.
    	these often take time and effort and in this *overdrive* society
    	that is always a little hard to do. 
    	but again, that's why they mean so much...
    
    	just a sentimental fool, i guess.
    	denise
    

    
    I think that little 'unscheduled' gifts are great, and I love giving
    and getting them -- also, an unexpected lovenote in lunchbox is
    'food for thought' and brings a smile. 
    
    At times though, I must admit, I felt a little bit rejected because
    I felt that it was all give and no get -- then SURPRISE!! Flowers.
    
    It helps keep the romance in a relationship to show in small ways
    (I'm not talking extravagant gifts here) that you care, by (as Denise
    says) taking the time and effort to make your SO feel loved and
    appreciated...it doesn't take that long really.
    
    janice buck

    
    	To get away from talking explicitly about gifts, let's go
    back to the original question which includes gifts/support/advice.
    I hope not all women feel like this!  (That having to ASK is not
    worth the effort!)  I feel sorry for women who feel like this. 
    Men are not mind readers!  I am one woman who believe is speaking
    up about wants/needs!  If I can't tell/show him what I want/need,
    be it a gift, advice, support or whatever, then how is he supposed
    to know??  I think, years ago I used to believe that he should just
    "KNOW" how I feel/think and what I want/need.  But time and several
    patient understanding men have taught me that I need to speak up
    and voice my needs/wants.  For example, if I don't tell my SO that
    we have a problem with our relationship and need to talk about it,
    then he may never realize there is a problem.  [I just ended this
    type of relationship so I KNOW what I'm talking about!  He thought
    our relationship was perfect and thought I was happy with it.  It
    could have gone on indefinitely if I had not told him how I feel
    and what I need from the relationship!]  
    
    	Now, gift giving seems to me to be a totally different subject.
    There are men who just happen to give gifts and remember birthdays
    etc. probably because they saw this happen in their family as they
    were growing up.  There are others who wouldn't send flowers or
    any spontaneous "for the heck of it" gift for anything!  Here again,
    I think it is our responsibility as women to let men know that we
    like that sort of thing.  So I usually start by sending flowers
    first, or by getting them some sort of silly little gift.  
    
    	I'm all for speaking up and voicing my needs!  ESP rarely works,
    except in strange, unusual cases!!  :^)
    
    	Myra
    

    It's so much nicer to get a gift that the OTHER person thought
    of giving, whether the gift is something material or is something
    like a hug or a verbal pat on the back.  If you present someone
    with flowers on some random day, just because, that's something
    they'll remember.  (you don't have to worry about remembering
    a special date that way!)  For those who have trouble remembering
    dates, there are several computerized reminder programs....

    --Louise

    Re .8:
    
    Welcome back, "Eagles".
    
    Re .0:
    
    I think I understand what Nigel is talking about - I've seen this
    too in the past.  Forget the "gifts" aspect - I think that's a
    different topic.
    
    I've got a grandmother who is hard of hearing.  She is not at all
    senile, but it is extremely frustrating when talking to her, especially
    if I'm trying to tell her something new.  You see, she copes with
    her bad hearing by "hearing what she expects me to say".  If I'm
    discussing a new topic she doesn't know about (such as my trying
    to tell her she was going to be a great-grandmother!) it can take
    me forever to get her to understand - and even then I'm not sure
    she really does.
    
    Some people are like that.  They have a particular opinion of
    themselves, and refuse to acknowledge anything anyone may say that
    is contradictory to that.  This is worst when the person has a
    very poor self-image.  Compliments are shrugged off and even
    actively denied.  Advice or criticism is amplified because it just
    confirms their thought of "I'm [stupid, ugly, a bad parent, etc.]"
    After a while, you cope with this kind of reaction by witholding
    any comments at all, because all you get for your efforts is grief.
    
    The sad part about this is that neither of you may understand what
    is happening, and your partner may start to feel that you've withdrawn
    your support, even though you've tried to be supportive and only
    gotten blasted for your efforts.  This is a vicious cycle and can
    (and often does) lead to the destruction of a relationship.
    
    The question is - what can be done about this?  I think that the
    earlier both of you recognize what is happening, the better the
    chances are for saving the relationship.  Don't just continue to
    avoid the issue - bring it out in the open.  Consider getting help
    if that's reasonable.
    
    And finally, I think this is more common in women because women
    have had to "pretend" more to cope with society's expectations of
    them, and have had a lot of practice hiding their true feelings
    and emotions (and abilities).
    
    					Steve

    Telepathy is not reliable.  People who wait for it are not going
    to get what they want, and it is their own fault.
    
    Thus asking "what do you want for X?" is not only reasonable but
    vital--it's easy to do the wrong thing even if you love and
    observe.  As an example, even people who know me well do not
    know what books I have got, and a second copy of anything is
    less useful to me.  Asking "would you like Y for X?" is a good
    way to set the financial limits, as well, so I prefer that
    method.
    
    A lot of women seem to expect telepathy, and feel hurt when it
    does not work.  I have never liked nor respected this desire, and
    resent the anger they show subsequent to its not working.
    
    				-John Bishop

    I've not read any of the intervening replies, so I'm responding
    only to the base note.  However, ... I do believe that it is quite
    possible for a mate to become a little callous or out of touch and
    need to be prodded a little into realizing they should perhaps respond
    differently.  Sometimes people just get preoccupied with the day
    to day routine of life and forget to smell the roses, to do the
    little loving things that they want to do but just don't.  Note
    the difference between this and the case where someone just out
    and out doesn't care to.
    
    Sometimes we all need to be reminded that we've drifted a little
    off course.  And hopefully, a _GENTLE_ reminder is all that a truly
    loving mate will need.  And they would want to be reminded and have
    it brought to their attention if they are being less than responsive
    as they could be.
    
    Just a thought ...
    
    Steve

RE: .12

If someone wants to get me a book for Christmas, I'm sure that they are quite
capable of finagling into my library to check to see if I already had the book.
If nothing else, stop by and ask to borrow a book, and look then! This has
happened to me quite a few times, and the surprise of the present was
compaounded by the surprise of knowing that I'd been finagled!

Jim. 

    
    In Womannotes I said that I had seen a gold bracelet with "I Love
    You" engraved on it, and that I thought that was an ideal romantic
    gift from a lover.  Then, I made the comment that "it doesn't count
    if you have to ask for it".  Well, I just want to  make it clear
    that I was not suggesting that people should not speak up about
    what they want.  I generally try to.  I just think that *asking*
    someone (even a husband) to give you a bracelet that says "I Love
    You" on it is in poor taste.  That's the type of thing that would
    mean so much more if it just happened to be the gift that a husband
    or SO selected *on his own.*  It's like making your own birthday
    cake, it just doesn't mean quite so much because half of what makes
    it so special is that it occurred to somebody else to do it FOR
    you.  This doesn't mean that I don't think there are plenty of other
    times when people should speak up and bring desires into the open.
     Guessing games get tiring after awhile.
    
    On the other hand, when I really care about somebody, whether it's
    my mother, or an SO, I try to take the time to notice what they
    point out in stores and mention in passing that they'd like to have.
     That way they can usually be surprised by something they want.
    
    I think that it is important to communicate, but if the other person
    never seems attentive enough to have any idea on their own what
    you'd like - either in a relationship or a gift - it's not right
    either.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .17 - that's what I was getting at.  It's not really telepathy
    when you KNOW that someone likes, for example, flowers and you
    send them some.  It's not telepathy when you come home and your
    SO looks under the weather and you go over and offer a hug and
    kiss.  A special card is always in order.
    
    What some of us are saying is, it's not as romantic and meaningful
    if you have to ask someone to give you these little things.  It's
    like asking someone if they love you - if they say "yes" you 
    wonder if they're saying it to please you - if they don't say
    anything you feel pretty bad - so it's better not to ask.
    
    --Louise

    Very true, but the original question was not whether such
    gestures are necessary, but why some folks do not want to
    *ask* for them.  In that sense, I stand by my answer.  I
    do NOT equate romantic gestures to love, although they
    may go together.  Please don't read more into my response
    than I have said!

    --Louise

    Right.  We're in agreement, I think, when you say something
    like I can't understand why someone would want these little
    surprises if they have to ask for them, if they don't come
    from the other person's heart.  Exactly what I'm trying to
    say.  As far as wishing they DID come from the other
    person's heart, well, it'd be nice if it did.  Especially
    if it DID before, and then fell off when there was "no more
    need for it".  There's always a need for the romancing,
    even when most of the evenings are spent diapering kids,
    cleaning house, and writing out bills!  But perhaps this
    belongs in the "staying together" note.
    
    --Louise

    	I've been married for 12 years and I don't Give things to others
    very often....even my wife. BUT, every once in awhile I see something
    that I think was made for her only and I grab it. Tonight she will
    be the recipient of a trio of gifts I purchased at the site craft
    Fair.  She will not get Xmas presents for the 4th year, neither
    will I.  We understand HOW we love each other and that's what's
    most important for us to know. The kids get the gifts, although
    I would like an ALF doll this year.........................
    
    Ken

All this talk about the importance of speaking up instead of trying to GUESS
what your SO wants, reminds me of a quote from, I think, Werner Erhard
in one of his "Communication Workshops":

	'Tis a shame that the marriage broke up merely because she wasn't
	willing to tell the him to move his finger over just a
	quarter of an inch !

/Eric

    i hope i don't go bumming nobody out for once but i heard an
    interesting comment on the radio today
    
    over twice as many diamonds were bought for men than women this
    year I think that is a highly provacative statement !
    

    It didn't way what the average age was but it did say that most
    of the diamonds bought for men were bought BY men as gifts, I believe.
    Was that it Kerry?
    
    Debbie
    

    oops nope debs it was 
    
    bought by women for men as gifts something like 2,000,000 diamonds
    were sold this year
    i presume they do a cut off early since if you want a diamond for
    xmas gotta order it and size it and stuff early

                            <newcomer to conference>
    I just scanned through all the responses to the ESP issue.  I have
    to agree with the people who said your SO is not a mind reader.
    I think if it is obvious that your SO has had a bad day or experience
    (by facial expression and mood) then expressing support or giving
    a hug is very nice and not doing so may be interpreted as not caring.
    However if certain things are not as obvious, then like one person
    said your SO may be caught up in the daily routine (rut) of life
    however sad that may be.  Then a small hint may be necessary.  I
    pose a question: 
    	 If you really desire something and have to hint
    to your SO about it, is getting that way better then not getting it
    at all?  Also if the answer to that is no, then you pose to your
    SO an unsolvable dilemma,  they want you to have what you truly desire
    but know that they cannot provide you with it because you had to
    ask or hint for it.  This situation leaves me very sad knowing that
    I can't give my SO what they desire. 
                                        
                                              --Dave

    One advantage to having children is that you no longer have to
    give hints. You just tell the child to tell Daddy that Mom would
    like....somehow this is not quite the same as telling someone directly.
    :-)
    To give someone a hint, or even a list of things you'd like to choose
    from is perfectly ok in my book.

    
    Couldn't agree more with 165.21,23..
    
    I've learned over the years to listen! I mean really listen and
    watch. 
    All year I will plan what I will get my SO for birthdays and Xmas.
    And then listen.
    She might comment on some item or express an intrest on a favorite
    piece of clothing during the summer when there is no thought to
    Christmas (I think).
    Every once in a while I'll buy a little something or send her some
    flowers for no reason at all!
    The smile and love is well worth it!
    
    Cal
    

    Gifts should NOT be solicited.
    
    Support should not HAVE to be.
    
    Advice should not be given UNLESS solicited.

    I believe that a lot of the problems we have where our partner
    expects us to be able to read their mind is in actuality a symptom
    of something very different - they really don't know what they want.
    
    Earlier this year, when I was trying desparately to keep my marriage
    together, there was a popular song on the radio that, it seemed
    to me, to be a perfect expression of the situation.  It was "If
    She Knew What She Wants", sung by the Bangles, and the lyrics
    are as follows:
  
    	If she knew what she wants
    	(He'd be giving it to her)
    	If she knew what she needs
    	(He could give her that too)
    	If she knew what she wants
    	(But he can't see through her)
    	He'd be giving it to her
    	Giving it to her
    
    	But she wants everything
    	(He can pretend to give her everything)
    	Or there's nothing that she wants
    	(She don't want to sort it out)
    	He's crazy for this girl
    	(But she don't know what she's looking for)
    	If she knew what she wants
    	He'd be giving it to her
    	Giving it to her
    
    I have a real suspicion that if we DID have ESP, things would only
    be worse, because often we'd be unable to figure out what our partner
    really wants.
    
    What's the answer?  Improved communication skills, or at least an
    early awareness on the part of both people that problems exist.
    It may be necessary to create some formalized "complaint" mechanism,
    such as written notes.  (By "notes" I mean pieces of paper or some
    other private communication - not VAX NOTES!)  Typical promises
    of "we'll always tell each other about problems" rarely hold up
    over the years.
    
    In closing, I'll observe that if you are at the point where you
    can complain about needing ESP, you are now aware of a serious
    communication problem and should do something about it immediately.
    I've learned the hard way that you can't just accept verbal assurances
    that "everything is all right" - in fact, such assurances are likely
    to mean that you are in big trouble!
    					Steve