Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    There is a Greek word "noos" that means all the stuff that is in
    our head that we can use to base conscious (and probably NON-conscious)
    decisions on.  One way to organize "noos" is as continuum of decreasing
    complexity.  On the very simple end, we have facts and numbers and
    stuff that may be true but we have no context for organizing it
    into something useful.  Let's call the simple stuff data.  When
    a bunch of simple stuff is organized into a coherent form, like
    an unread report or love letter, we have moved a little toward
    complexity, and I would like to call that information.  When you
    read and understand the report or love letter, you have combined
    that information with something (I don't have a name for it) that
    is inside your head to form a more complex thing I label as knowledge.
    After that it gets more complicated.  For lots of life's questions,
    stuff at the knowledge level of complexity is adequate.  I need
    something more complex to know the difference described in the base
    note.  One way to look at integrating knowledge into something more
    complex involves the way we represent what we know in our minds.
    Usually, we represent things as visual, auditory or kinesthetic
    stuff.  Clues about which way something is represented are available
    in the words we use, like "if I see what you are getting at", or
    "I hear what you are saying", or "I have a feel for what is going
    on".  Integrated knowledge, which I label as understanding, exists
    when I have the same experience in multiple representation systems.
    Integrating understanding is even more complicated.  It it my personal
    opinion that wisdom is the result of integrating our understanding
    with unconscious understandings which involve representation systems
    based on communications channels beyond our consciousness.  This
    integration is facilitated by prayer and meditation.
    
    Important decisions seem to always require highly integrated stuff
    for decisions that I am comfortable with.  It seems to me that the 
    value of rational and analytic is highest on simple decision and
    lowest on important decisions.  If my decision is important and
    I feel it needs something more powerful than knowledge, I think
    it is important to *STOP* analyzing it.  If I can stop, and that
    isn't easy for me, then I usually find that the decision I am most
    comfortable with is apparant and I can just go with it.
   
    
    
    

          Sometimes all the advice in the world can not  help  as
     you  may  always  question  "did I make the right decision".
     With some  questions  you  must  let  your  heart  make  the
     decision  and  follow  with  your mind.  Only you can answer
     your own questions about your path  in  life.   Once  you've
     made your decision, stick to it with all conviction.

     Best of wishes and let your sun shine,

     Lee

    try to keep it simple the more "things" that you bring into the
    process the more complicated it gets.
    
    just ask yourself this question "what is it that i can do about
    it"? many times there is "something" you can do , talk to another
    person about it, get out of a job or relationship. if the answer
    is that you don't see anything to do about it, then there is still
    something you can do about it- choose not to feel bad about it.
    if you are lucky enough to beleve in a higher power turn it over
    to her for some help. it does work

    Oddly enough, (or perhaps NOT so), the quote from .0 was foremost
    in my mind as I walked in to see the judge last week to bring my
    divorce to a close.  I know that for a long time, I did NOT know
    what I could and could not change, and that that specfific knowledge
    arrived very suddenly.  I am sorry I can't suggest ways to convince
    yourself that YOU know the difference - that has to come from within.
    
    But I do know that hanging on in the hopes that something will
    change, without any other activity, only makes things worse for
    you.  But one should also not give up too soon if there seems to
    be a genuine attempt at resolving the conflict.
    
    					Steve

    All of the things we (in one way or another) do to ourselves we
    can change (and thats a lot).  All of the things that nature and
    life has done to us we can't change, its beyond our control.
    Wisdom is having been there,
    ... once you've been there you know the difference.  Good luck
                                                                mary

                                                                       
    "You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
     If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
    
    Experience is the only source of wisdom I have ever uncovered. 
    
    (Boy, Dave, that 23 year old mind is pretty deep today)
    
    I've never met you, Gale, although I've seen some of things you
    chose to share with the rest of us.  I say this with all seriousness.
    Your inquiry into the nature of wisdom is indicative that you possess
    it no small measure.
    
    Frequently, I've found, the only way to realize that one is unable
    to change something is to try and change it.  That's not very
    encouraging, I realize, but if one is prepared to accept the
    possibility that one may be powerless in the face of circumstances,
    it isn't quite so bad...
    
    DFW

    Gale
    
    This means to me... 
    
    "the things i can not change" - other people, places and things
    
    "change the things i can"     - myself
    
    And the wisdom is knowing the difference between yourself and outside
    forces.
    
    I wish you the best,
    
    Angel

      In trying to still find the answer that prompted my .0, I have
    come across a piece I'd like to share with you... it could relate
    to a personal life, a lifestyle, or a business situation...
    
	Once upon a time a Sea Horse gathered up his seven pieces of eight 
and cantered out to find his fortune.  Before he had traveled very far he
met an Eel, who said,

	"Psst.  Hey, Bud.  where 'ya going'?"

	"I'm going out to find my fortune." replied the Sea Horse, 
proudly.

	"You're in luck," said the Eel.  "For four pieces of eight you can 
have this speedy flipper, and then you'll be able to get there a lot 
faster."

	Gee, that's swell,"  said the sea horse, and paid the money and put 
on the flipper and slithered off at twice the speed.  Soon he came upon a 
sponge, who said,

	"Psst.  Hey, Bud.  where 'ya going'?"

	"I'm going out to find my fortune." replied the Sea Horse.

	"You're in luck," said the sponge.  "For a small fee I will let 
you have this jet-propelled scooter so that you will be able to travel a 
lot faster."

	So the Sea Horse bought the scooter with his remaining money and 
went zooming thru the sea five times as fast.  Soon he came upon a shark, 
who said,

	"Psst.  Hey, Bud.  where 'ya going'?"

	"I'm going out to find my fortune." replied the Sea Horse.

	"You're in luck.  If you take this short cut," said the shark, 
pointing to his open mouth, "you'll save yourself a lot of time."

	"Gee, thanks," said the Sea Horse, and zoomed off into the interior 
of the shark, and was never heard of again.

	The moral of this fable is that if you're not sure where you are 
going, you're liable to end up someplace else.

Well, *I've* allways thought .0 was a trite saying!  It allways burned me up
when I was little, and someone quoted it to me, and it just made me work harder
at whatever it was! 

You can change *anything* you want to!  All you have to do is try hard enough!
And to try hard enough, you have to want to make that change bad enough!

The wisdom lies in knowing when the benifits are going to out weigh the effort
required...

Jim.

    RE.11
    	Beg to differ with it being a "trite" saying. I've felt that
    many sayings of this nature highlight at least a different viewpoint
    of the world, if not a basic truth. It would be nice to believe that
    I have enough control to change *anything* I wish to change. However,
    I tend to believe there are things of which we have direct control,
    that we can influence, and that which we can exert no control at
    all. 
    	I cannot change the past nor can I change the rotation of the
    earth. Through hard work and dedication to a goal, one can influence
    much in this life. How much in this life do we really have a direct
    control? Are we not under the influence of others even in our "private"
    lives? 
    	The saying holds a perspective that I feel is a positive influence
    in my life and therefore not trite. I may be trite, however. ;-#) 
    
    Don
    

    re: -1
    
    I agreed completely!!  Thank you for saying it.
    
    re: 11 
    
    I beg to differ that you can change *anything* that you want
    to.  You (I) can only change yourself (myself).  I have no control
    over other people places or things.  Neither do you.  You may delude
    yourself into thinging that you do, but if you were to honestly
    look at the situation, I think that you would realize that you don't.
    
    Angeline

    
    re: .11
    
    The phrasing may be a little slushy, but I think the point remains.
    
    Did you really mean anything, Jim?  Somehow, I think there are too
    many counterexamples to your statement in day-to-day life for me
    to accept it.
    
    DFW

    Serenity is the key, without it one gets into that old catch-22
    of either trying to change what can't be changed or suffering with
    something that can be changed.  Acceptance of the changeablity or
    lack there of can only happen to the non-frazeled mind.  With a
    clear mind, one can make the determination of changeability and
    proceed accordingly.  God give me tons of that stuff, serenity,
    NOW!
    
    Bill G.
    

RE: .* RE: .11

If you devoted your life to enslaving the world, and set off many H Bombs, you
could quite possibly stop the earth from spinning.  Is it worth it? Obviously
not.

You can quite easily, (in many cases *too* easily), manipulate other people's
lives, often without realizing that you are doing it.  If you want a particular
thing, you can often manipulate people to get it.  Is it worth it?  Virtually
not.

As I said, if you want something bad enough, you could most likely get it. But a
lot of times it will cost you too much.  The key to happyness is working toward
those things which you want which do not cost too much, the things that will
make you happy...

Jim. 

    When things get especially dark and look like there is no light
    in sight, I have benefited from the wisdom of one of my more mystically
    aware friends who always seems to have a way to look at the situation
    with a slightly different take.  One of the gems...
    
    	Beware of what you want.....for you may indeed get it.  And
    	if your name is not on it [i.e. the match was not meant], and
    	it will become your pariah. 
    
    Accepting that some things are meant to happen isn't always easy
    for those of us with a strong bent to "fix" things (including 
    relationships).  The patience needed to sort out the areas of
    life where you can change and recognize those which you cannot
    is a skill some folks only gain with time (and being awake/aware).
    It may take rounding an especially difficult curve and realizing
    you had this extra gear all along and had never used it (toggled
    it on, if you will). 
    
    -rene_feeling_philosophical_this_am
    
    

RE: .11

> You can change *anything* you want to!  All you have to do is try
> hard enough!

Reminds me of a story I heard im my aero modeling days. At the time,
someone came on the market with a working model jet engine. The
thing required brazing .001" steel shims around the intake. 

Everybody said it could not be done. So they hired young,
inexperienced welders. Those dummies didn't know it couldn't be
done, so they did it. 

On the other hand, Jim, reading your words again, you may just be
the fellow who lacks the wisdom to know the difference... (don't get
hot - I'm just kidding). 

-- Ron 

Yea, Sometimes I think so too...


But usually I can do anything I want to...


The Hard Part is knowing what you want!

Jim :-)

    Re: .0
    
    I want to thank all who responded, either here, or in mail.  The
    wisdom to know the difference was in my job situation, and not
    knowing whether I had control over making some decisions.  Especially
    since DEC has a two year commit when you take a new job.  After
    reading here, and talking to a lot of people who have been with
    DEC for many many years, I confronted my boss with how I was feeling,
    and the bottom line was, I asked to leave, and was allowed, and
    have now taken a new job to start in 2 weeks.
    
    It is nice to know that you CAN change things, and that you do have
    the wisdom to know the difference...
    
    Thanks once again,
    
    Gale