Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I think you should find someone who REALLY loves you as you are.
    If you really love someone, all of those little things (smoking,
    chewing gum in public, reading in bed...) become endearing reflections
    of their personality and seem cute somehow.  Change comes naturally
    or because someone WANTS to change.  When people try to change you
    it makes you feel as if you are just a warm body filling their 
    artificial concept of what their perfect mate should be.  Sort of
    feels like they don't really know or care about you at all and you
    can just stay around as long as you don't step too far out of the
    role they want you to play or the character they want you to be.
    It makes you put your guard up to keep the 'real you' from slipping
    away. 
    
    On the other hand.....  (can you tell I'm a gemini) I suppose all
    relationships involve some degree of compromise.  But constant 
    criticism is hurtfull and harmfull and chips away at a relationship
    until there is nothing left.  
    p.s.
    TAKE THAT GUM OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!!!!!!!  
    
     

    
    
    WELL STOP IT!!!!!
    PUT OUT THAT CIGARETTE AND GET INTO THAT KITCHEN AND COOK 
    SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN GO HIKING WITH!!  AND MAKE SURE ITS
    NOT MARRIED!! (and do all of the above at home)
    
    :-)
        mary

    
    P.G. Wodehouse once noted.
    
    "Don't try to change him, or you may lose the flavor."
    
    He was speaking of a man at the time, but it applies to everyone.
    
    I have tried to keep myself relatively honest in this area.  It
    is the height of arrogance to expect a person to change their habits
    simply on one's say-so.  If the person is doing something that bothers
    you, you should say so, but have a reason why.  If something bothers
    you and you don't know why, it's time for a self-examination.
    
    My own response to change is somewhat slow and recalcitrant.  A
    great deal depends on how much I respect the person suggesting the
    change, and how the person chooses to bring it up.  People who simply
    point out some habit of mine and append some official-sounding source
    or some folk tale to their statement as support give me hives.
    
    Of course, there are people who do care about what happens to me,
    and I tend to listen to them a lot more closely.
    
    DFW

I believe that certain bad habits reflect the inner person.  And the people that
you associate with to a certain point are a reflection of you... 

I was 'involved' with a woman once who started smoking heavily, gaining a pound
of weight a month, turned into a slob, and turned into a couch potatoe... 

I really am sorry to tell you that I left...

Sure, If I'd "loved her enough" I could have stayed.  But is that a convolution
of "If you loved me you'd..."?  I guess that what it comes down to is that the
person I ended up with was not the person I loved.  It made it worse watching
the person I loved crumble into ruin. 

Was there anything I could do about it?  Not that I could tell...  Nothing I
tried worked...  Was I the problem?  Maybe... I'll never know... 

Eliminating any one of those problems would have been "for her own good". So I
tried to get her to change... 

Maybe I, or the relationship was too shallow...  Who knows...  Sometimes that's
what happens I guess... 

Jim. 

    
    RE: .5
    
    Jim, you titled your reply "Some people need to change...", and
    it's true.  I once heard life defined as a chain of opportunites
    to acquire bad habits.  It would be somewhat foolish to assert that
    change is universally detrimental.
    
    However, it cannot be one's responsibility to change another adult.
    No matter what it is about them that irritates or annoys you.  If
    you say to someone, "This facet of your character makes me
    uncomfortable," then you've done your part, and that's a place to
    begin.  Simply going about saying "You know, such-and-such isn't
    good for you," is not the way to go about it, I've found.  People
    don't like being told things that way.
    
    
    "I cannot make you give him up, but I can make you give me up."
    
    I think that's about as succinct as it gets.
    
    DFW

    Re .7:
    
>                I once read a book about child-raising that said
>                to criticize the child's *behavior* and not the child
>                himself.  (In other words, to say, "That was a naughty
>                thing to do" and *NOT* "You are a naughty boy.")

    I read this too, and think I found it in "Parent Effectiveness
    Training" (P.E.T.).  I first read this when taking a "Postive Power
    and Influence" course, years before I became a parent.  I found
    that the philosophies outlined in the book were applicable to far
    more than a parent-child relationship, and I've successfully used
    many ideas from P.E.T. to improve my relationships with others.
    
    Another relevant idea from P.E.T. was "ranges of acceptable behavior",
    which suggested that in many cases, your annoyance with what someone
    else does is really YOUR problem - the other's behavior is not
    harmful to them.
    					Steve

re: .7
        What really makes you believe that even people who are "trained"
    to analyze other people are "qualified".
    
    	As a psych prof of mine was fond of saying "Don't come to me
    and say 'My roommate is {actions denoting unusual behavior}, What's
    wrong with him/her?'  Behavior is not necessarily indicative of
    anything."

    Suppose I want to change some aspect of myself?  Is it inappropriate
    to ask the people around me to assist me?  I'm not sure, but it
    seems like the consensus is that other people (especially SOs) trying
    to change a person is bad form.  As long as I don't forsake
    responsibility for the speed and direction of the change, can't
    I safely and properly take help wherever I can get it?

    That's different. It's the same thing as giving unsolicited advice
    and giving solicited advice.
    
    	Jon

RE: .6 etc

Sure, I realize that I can't change another person, that they have to change
themselves....

What bothered me, was that I felt, and still feel that there should have been
*something* I could have done to 'help', to be more supportive, ... But I
couldn't find anything...  It also bothers me that even though even though the
only thing I *could* do was leave, that seems to imply that I didn't care about
her enough to live with her imperfections...

There *should have been something...

Jim. 

                                      
    >What bothered me, was that I felt, and still feel that there should
    >have been *something* I could have done to 'help', to be more
    >supportive, ... But I couldn't find anything... 
    
    It sounds to me like you tried.
    
    >It also bothers me that even though even though the only thing I
    >*could* do was leave, that seems to imply that I didn't care about her
    >enough to live with her imperfections... 
    
    I'm not privy to all the circumstances of the situation (which are
    really none of my damn business) but I think you're being too hard
    on yourself.  Take it from me, a specialist in self-castigation.
    These changes you mentioned may not seem like all that much at first
    glance, but perhaps you felt they were symptomatic of some deeper
    change in the person.  She wasn't the person you loved any more.
    
    I had a rather lengthy debate on this subject with a close frind
    of mine.  To paraphrase, I said:
    
    	"But there are things in life that change us, things that can
    	make us into a person that is completely different from the
    	person we were before it happened.  Doesn't the destructive
    	potential of that bother you?"
    
    He replied:
    
    	"Sure it does, but how long are you going to mourn these shadows?
    	These things happen, and there isn't anything you can do about
    	them except pick up and go on."
    
    I have the feeling what I'm saying isn't going to make things any
    better, but my experience is limited, so I have to give what I got.
    
    DFW

    
    The following is from a "Dear Abby" column, Sunday 28 July 1985.
    
    	Dear Abby:
    	
         I have been married for seven years. We dated for three years
         prior to getting married. During that 10-year period, I had
         never seen her in a bathing suit, earrings or nail polish.
         She wears a skirt once a year- usually at Christmas. The rest
         of the time she wears blue jeans or slacks. She owns no
         feminine clothing. I've never seen her in high heels. Her
         girlfriend cuts her hair, and it looks it. The only makeup
         she wears is a pale pink lipstick, and then only on special
         occasions. The only jewelry she wears is a wedding band. (She
         didn't even want an engagement ring.) 
    
         I've tried to get her to change, but she's satisfied just the
         way she is. How can I get her to smarten up her appearance?
         
         					-PERPLEXED
         
         Her reply was:
         
         Dear Perplexed:
         
         You can't. Obviously your wife is not interested in the outer
         trappings, and from what you say, she never was. She's still
         the girl you married. She hasn't changed; your expectations
         have. She had every right to assume that you'd be satisfied
         with an unadorned natural woman.
         
         Moral: Never marry a person, then set about to change
         her. Or Him. 
          

    
    My $.02
    
    I not fun to try and change someone else.
    It is exciting to watch others grow and change.
    
    The untimate is changing your self and having someone recognize
    you have grown.
    
    John