Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    "Two refusals of dates means 'go away'", that's what she told
    me.   When I've gotten the second refusal, I've sometimes told
    the woman involved what my mother recommended.  Sometimes I've
    been told she was right (good, then I know what's going on),
    sometimes I've been told "No, don't go away" and have been
    offered an alternate arrangement for a date (also good, right?).
    
    			-John Bishop, Old Wives' Tale Dept.

>             Did it ever occur to you that a
>             woman can have a wonderful time with you (and still not
>             want to see you again for reasons that are none of your
>             business?)  


	      Women are strange like that...:-)
 

-jim-

    
    Well said, Susan! (re: note 2).  Women that say they enjoy the "first
    date" are probably being honest.  Don't assume she had a lousy time
    just because she doesn't actively pursue you.  MANY women feel very
    threatened when after just one date a man is in HOT pursuit of an
    other date with her.  Some people need more space than others.  Just because
    a woman may have had a nice afternoon or evening with you DOES NOT
    mean that she is ready to pursue a relationship with you.
    It puts alot of pressure on the other person if you expect some
    kind of explanation as to why she may not want to see you.  There
    are many people that just like to date, rather than develop a 
    relationship.  (Of course if you were "involved" in a relationship
    with her and she didn't want to see you, then she certainly should
    provide you with an explanation!)
    
    Just my two cents,
    
    Nancy

    Of course we have to consider the scenario the other way around
    as well. There are many of us women, I am sure, who have gone out
    on that first date, did have a very nice time, and then told at
    the end of the evening..." I'll keep in touch" or "I'll call". Now
    I ask, after a couple of weeks have gone by and the phone doesn't
    ring, what does the woman do? She's really interested but also
    takes the silence as.."he's really not interested"...should she
    pursue him or leave it alone? Should she drop a gentle reminder
    that she still exists or should she just drop it?
    
    Ann
    

re .2 & .4

It's not so much asking for an explanation of *why* she doesn't want to see
you again, rather it is knowning the *fact* that she doesn't want another date
that is important (to me, anyway)

Dave K

PS of course, you can interchange he/she in all of this!

Now I'm really confused.  I don't recall Steve saying ANYTHING about expla-
nations, or heavy pressuring.  Merely that after seeing someone the first time,
he inquired if they would be interested in a second meeting and received some
sort of affirmative response.  In my mind, a person should know at that point
whether they wish to do so or not.  You shouldn't throw your gun lightly, but
once thrown you should stick to it!  To later keep putting off a person with
excuses like, "I'm really busy" ( come on, who isn't?! ) or even worse to ig-
nore them is just low-down.


Steve, for what it's worth, I agree with you!  I believe in honesty.  I also
believe in keeping my word ( remember that old saying, "A man's word is as
good as his promise"?  I think that should go for _everyone_! ); it's a
question of integrity.  It's not much consolation, but I feel that if someone
treats me this way ( and some have ), then they aren't the kind of person I
would like to be with anyway.


Brian

    Re .6 and .7:
    
    Thank you Dave and Brian, you read my questions correctly.  I consider
    myself an honest person, and try to be honest with everyone.  Therefore
    it hurts when someone isn't honest with me.  As I said in the base
    note, I'm not concerned with rejections - for which no explanation
    is required, and I certainly agree with John in .1 that two rejections
    should mean "give up" - but to be simply delayed indefinitely is
    what is really aggravating.
    
    Nancy, I understand quite well why someone would not want to have
    a second date, and agree with your suggested reasons.  I just wish
    to be told "No", not "Later", if "No" is really what is meant. 
    I also see your point about intense interest - but that's hard to
    predict in advance.  Some people like it, and consider anything
    less a sign of non-interest, others, like you apparently, don't
    care for it.  Fine.  Just be honest about it, that's all I ask.
    
    					Steve

    Re .12:
        Let me be more specific.  The behavior that bothered me in
    a specific instance was:
    	1.  First, agreement that another date was desireable and
    	    a general timeframe for such date.
    	2.  At a later time, when I made several suggestions for
    	    a next date over a period of a few days I got a "I'll call
    	    you at such-and-such a time".  No call.  
    	3.  Finally, after an inquiry in which I probably looked like
    	    a fool, I was told "I'm busy - I'll get back to you in
    	    two weeks."
    	4.  Two weeks, three weeks later, nothing.
    	5.  Five weeks later, a pleasant "hi" note, in which no mention
    	    of asking for another date was sent.  No response.
    
    I never suggested that I insist on "iron-clad commitments".  I only
    believe in courtesy.  It was probably the specific commitments to
    contact me which were reneged upon that bothered me the most.  A
    simple "Sorry, I'm no longer available" would have been just fine.
    
    On the whole, I'm probably too naive - I tend to believe what people
    tell me.  Maybe I should become more cynical and distrustful, and
    play "the game" like most everyone else.  How horrifying.
    
    					Steve

    Re .13:
    
>  Dear Suzanne... :-)	What in blazes does THAT mean?  Except in the trivial
>  case where both folks work together and can easily interact by "doing
>  lunch" once a week or so ...  How DOES one remain a "friend" with women?
>  We believe that unless she sees us as a potential "SO" ... somehow there
>  is never any occasion to get together and the few that do occur become a
>  stressful event for one or both parties ...  8^(  We believe most women
>  are too ego-centric to make _real_ friends - even for other women.  )^8

    Sorry, I must disagree.  I find it very easy to have friends who
    are women, with no romantic potential at all.  I have several, with
    whom I often talk about a wide variety of subjects, including
    personal feelings, etc.  Many men find it impossible to think of
    women as anything but "sex objects", and vice versa.  I like to
    think of women as fellow humans, with varied experiences, backgrounds
    and viewpoints.  A close platonic friendship between a man and a
    woman is very special indeed.
    
    					Steve

    
    FLAME ON to scorch your little tail feathers .13.
    
    Women are too egocentric to make real friends???   (Re: YOUR quote)
        
    Huh????
    
    Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that a person
    may go on a date, have a good time, but NOT want to develop a 
    relationship???
    
    Some people go on a date, have a good time and then start to plan
    their lives around the other person.  It takes TIME to get to know
    someone.  And the other person may not feel the same way.
    
    I don't seem why anyone should get so bent out of shape over ONE
    date.  If it is the first date, then you may not know the other
    person very well anyway.
    
    If I was on a date and someone said to me, "Thank you Nancy, I had
    a wonderful time, but I don't want to see you again.", I'd be hurt.
    But If we parted and he said thank you and I never heard from him,
    I would simply think he had a nice time but he didn't want to
    pursue anything.  ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.  
    
    If two people like each other, then the communication continues
    and that second date will effortlessly happen.
    
    My two cents (again),
    
    Nancy

    Wellllllllllll
    
    I have had the opportunity to meet several women through the singles
    notes. Although only one of them succeeded in becoming a second
    date, several of them have turned into mail/notes friends whom I
    converse with several times a week. I would prefer to be told if
    the other doesn't feel compatible/interested in further meetings
    right up front, because that establishes the situation very cleanly.
    I also prefer to discuss with that person why they have those feelings
    just so I can learn from the experience. Maybe I said or did something
    that came across the wrong way - by asking I can understand and
    be careful not to repeat same mistake again. Likewise if I went
    out with someone and didn't have an interest in them I would be
    very willing to discus the same with them.
    
    I totally disagree with the eagle (sorry steve) about women being
    ego centric. THey are no more so than the male population, maybe
    even a little less. I haven't met any women who collect notches
    on their bedpost, but sure have met many males who did.
    
    Regarding Steve Lionel's point about the courtesies of reply to
    date invitations. Plain human consideration should dictate that
    a person would have the courtesy to either say no not interested
    or yes I will get back to you and then get back to you. Sometimes
    it is hard to read between the lines and recognize that someone
    isn't getting back to you because they aren't interested and aren't
    considerate enough to be honest up front with their feelings.

    
    my two cents worth
    
    al
    

                 
    
    I feel that a date is simply a time set aside for two people to
    find out if indeed they are compatible.. if so they pursue future
    dates if not.. then that should not be a big deal.. you went out,
    hopefully had a good time even if you did not find each other
    thrilling, met a new person, learned a little (again hopefully) and
    that was that.
                                                                  
    With the exception of two times in the years I have been dating
    I have yet to go out on a date that I did not have a good time,
    made the best of it even if it was not a person I knew I would
    necessarily go out with again, and learned a little about a new
    person.. good, bad or otherwise.  Sure I have had my share of evenings
    that were a real live flop but it only served to strengthen my
    standards by which I judged the good by!!  
    
    Basically I think if you look at a date in its proper perspective
    that you will always manage to make the best of it... 
    
    1.  a date is a time set aside to interact with another person 
        and to see if there is any basis for future dates.
    
    2.  a date is also a time set aside to interact with another person
        in order to access that there is NO basis for planning a future
        date and to come to the decision that you would NOT want to
        go out with this person again!!
    
    Making up your mind not to take every date that failed to yield
    future dates as a loss is a great stride toward boosting your self
    confidence..  If you made the best of a time out with another person
    than there is no reason to feel anything but happy about having
    shared said time!....    I wonder sometimes if so much of
    the rejection and pain people seem to experience after as little
    as one date is that they are looking at every date they have as
    a prospective relationship... just view it as a "getting to know
    someone time" and nothing more and you find that you have nothing
    to loose and everything to gain!
    
    later, gailann
 

    
    Remember how much trouble Dustin Hoffman had in getting that second
    date with Katherine Ross in "The Graduate"?  Talk about persistance.
    
    
    My wife-to-be and I went out together for several weeks before she
    knew we were dating.  I first met her at a Folklore Society hootenany
    in Washington DC and invited her and her brother to a supper I was
    organizing before an upcoming Clancy bros. concert.  Then there
    was a brunch I was organizing for some visiting dancers.  Her folks
    had just retired and moved back to Oregon so I also invited her, and
    her brother, to my place for Thanksgiving dinner.  Also present
    were a girl from another folk dance group and another couple.  My
    w-t-b thought I was going with this other girl, but it was
    all orchestrated as a way of getting to know her without setting
    up any expectations.  For all she knew I could have been interested
    in her brother.  We knew each other two months before we got engaged
    and then got married five months later.  That was almost fifteen
    years ago and I haven't had a date since.
    

    re: .18...gailann's first paragraph
    
    		Thank you very much Gail...I think that says it all
    	in a nutshell.  'Nuff said!
      
    <Minor FLAME>
    
    		This is a very hot subject, and I wanted to step in
    	there with my two cents just about every reply.  Basically,
    	I don't think people should make such a big deal out of a first
    	date.  If they don't want to go, they don't have to!  The same
    	goes for the second date.  If they feel pressure from someone they
    	don't know, then it's all in the mind!
      	
             I also don't think that Suzanne should make such sweeping
        generalizations (I think it was her first reply) about how
    	women act or feel in general.  Women are alike and yet wonderfully
        different all at the same time...as are men.  Your first date
    	should be an adventure in learning.  The purpose of a date is
    	to get to know one another to the best of your abilities (as
        I'm sure this has been said before in this topic)...PERIOD!
    	If there is a possibility for a second date, take it.  This
    	goes for both men and women.  If she/he does not want to go
    	out again, then drop it.  It wasn't meant to be.  That's not
    	counting all those (not us! 8> ) persistent individuals out
        there that can't take no for an answer.  Let 'em eat dust!  	
                                                    
    <Minor FLAME off>
    
    					Phil
    
    

Dating is a game, one with well defined (if unwritten) rules and
conventions. If you are going to "play the game", then you should abide by
the same conventions and rules as the rest of the "players", otherwise you
are often going to be frustrated and disappointed. 

No one (with the possible exception of those who make a virtue out of brutal
'honesty') likes to hurt another human being. Face it, rejection hurts -- it
hurts both the one rejected and the one doing the rejection. And refusing an
additional date is a particularly personal form of rejection, especially if the
first date was viewed as a success. That's why we (the human race) have adopted
various conventions and techniques by which the fact of rejection can be gently
assimilated by the rejectee without loss of face by either party. 

Remember that the person doing the rejection doesn't want to hurt you, and
doesn't want to humiliate you.  Equally, the person doesn't want to enter
into a pointless confrontation as to WHY they don't want an additional date.
Their goal is simple; they are trying to minimize pain -- yours and theirs!
And, if the person (with whom you are trying to make a second date) is
undecided, then repeated phonecalls and MAIL messages will probably annoy
rather than impress. 

You know (as an aside), whenever I hear a paraphrase of the statement "All 
I want is an honest answer", I am reminded of an old 'Perishers' cartoon 
which I once saw. One of the ongoing situations in 'The Perishers' (a 
British cartoon strip reminiscent of "Charlie Brown") was that Marion (the 
little girl) was madly infatuated with Marlon (the little boy) who was not 
in any way interested in Marion. In one notable strip, Marion has cornered 
Marlon against a wall. She asks him
	"Do you want to go out with me? I want a straight answer"
to which he replies, 
	"Well, honestly, NO"
She then hits him over the head and shouts
	"PUDDENHEAD! That was the wrong straight answer!"


			Nigel

    Ok, let's forget "All I want is an honest answer."  I'll settle
    for "All I want is AN answer!"  Many of the replies to this note
    focus on my supposedly wanting a reason for rejection, which I never
    asked for.  I can deal with rejection just fine, thanks - I've had
    enough practice.  Rejection is NOT the subject of this note, but
    my muddled text in .0 probably confused a lot of people.
    
    I'm starting to agree with Suzanne's suggestion that one NOT try
    to arrange for a second date while on the first.  It's too easy
    to make commitments you really don't want to keep.  But if you do
    get a request for a second date, don't say "Yes, but later" when
    you really mean "No".
    				Steve
    
    

	Hmm, looks like Steve is giving up on me!  :-)  Can't say as I blame
him, though.  As for myself, I still believe in honesty.  Let's face it:  to
say "Yes" when you mean "No" is an out-and-out lie.  Whether or not the second
( or third, etc ) date takes place is not as important as how the other person
handles it.  It makes me wonder, when someone does something like that:  if
that person can't be honest with me, I wonder how honest they are with them-
selves...  Of course, that's something only each person knows for him/her self.


	As Steve said, we're not looking for reasons WHY the rejection is taking
place, no long explanations are necessary.  Sure, I know it's tough to reject
someone; but if we're going to be fair in this ( something I admire greatly ), I
think it's only right that there be a little pain for each party.  Why should
the rejectee do all the suffering?!  To say, "Call me later this week" is just a
cop-out.  It seems like most of the important things in life have some price
attached to them, and I think everyone should be willing to pay it.  It bothers
me a lot less to have someone say, "Let's remain friends" than it does for
someone to lead me on.


	Rejection, after it's happened a few times, isn't that bad.  You just
say, "Ok, let's move on".  No big deal.  But at least in that situation you
KNOW where you stand; and I think that's the worst part of the other situation,
the not knowing where you stand.  The feeling that you're drifting in Limbo is
not at all pleasant.  Or fair.  How is a person supposed to know?!  Maybe you
really ARE busy!  And are still interested in another date.  That's what your
words say, even if your heart doesn't agree.  I'll try a couple more times,
and then give up.  It's just not worth my effort or time.


	But, we're all different, and you can't expect everyone else to handle
things the same way you would.  Wouldn't it be nice, though?!  :-)



Brian    

RE: .28 --


	Right!!!  My sentiments exactly.  Why should the number two equate to
"RELATIONSHIP"?!  Sheesh, I just like to have a good time.  If something hap-
pens, it happens; generally both people know it if it does.  And if it doesn't,
companionship and good times are just as important.  Thanks, Eagle, this was
something I meant to bring up but kept forgetting.


<sigh>...


Brian

>    He said, "I'd ask someone else out."
   
>    (Are we making this too complicated here?)  He
>    didn't seem to see the problem with any of that... :-)

     I'm in agreement with this lad. The whole thing should 
     be taken lightly (he obviously was very well raised :^)
     
     This contains many imbedded wisdoms. For example, if you're
     not so serious you don't appear desperate; if your not so
     serious you're more attractive. I'm not not claiming to 
     appear the clown but don't make things melodramatic. This
     seems like it would be especially true if you're already 
     gifted with a fine wit as somemany of you have demonstrated.

     

    
    
    	ahhhh, the infamous second date... Just ask at the end of the
    evening! "I had a good time tonight, Would you like to go out again?"
    If yes then say "Great! Me too! How about I call you sometime
    this week and we work something out?"  If NO is the answer then
    you just say "WEll, thanks for a nice evening and it was nice to
    meet you, goodnight" If you get the run-around then try calling
    later.. I usually try a couple of phone calls and if it doesn't
    look promising then I forget it..
    
    	As far as women as friends go, I don't know what I'd do without
    them.. I find it harder to make MALE friends than I do women friends!
    Having a completely platonic relationship with a woman is very easy.
    Just treat them like you would like them to treat you. They ARE
    different from male friends but they can be good friends..
    
    	On your first date act yourself. If a person can't accept you
    for being yourself then they'll neither be a good friend nor good
    relationship material. Yea, I'm a little more careful of what I
    might say or I'll be very polite (as opposed to "just" polite :-))
    but I won't be anything other than myself. I'm not interested in
    people who won't accept me for what and who I am. (and the sooner
    they get to know ME the better...)
    
    							mike

    Human Relations are strange precious things; that's what makes them
    so much more rewarding than predictable concrete things. I find
    myself heartily agreeing with the sentiment 'don't put somebody
    through the pain of an explicit rejection when there was no committment
    in the first place'.
    
    If somebody is interested in persuing something you'll know it,
    NOBODY is ever too busy to perue a relationship they want. BUSY
    is always a codeword for NO.
                                
    I used to be a person that always insisted that things were black
    or white, how one learns!
    
    Dave

    There was a time when I was terrified to ask for a first date, for
    fear of rejection. Eventually, I came to recognize when a person
    was interested or not, thus minimizing the risk of rejection. Asking
    for first dates became relatively easy.
    
    Having lots of first dates, I came to find that the real problem
    was not the first date, but the second date. Often, I'd have a good
    time on a date, but then I'd really dread asking for that second
    date, again for fear of rejection. Often I'd get the feeling of
    why bother asking, I *know* I'm going to be rejected. But it's better
    to know that to wonder, so I'd force myself to call and ask. I usually
    found that the times when I was most certain of rejection, rejection
    was what I got.
    
    I've finally realized that there's a good reason for that. When
    someone really likes you and wants to see you again, they let you
    know one way or another. In this respect, second dates aren't really
    much different from first dates. It's just that it hurts more to
    be rejected for a second date because you've spent some time with
    someone, developed some feelings for that person, and made a bit
    of an emotional investment. 
    --
    						Seth

    re: .35
    	I would disagree that BUSY == NO...
    
    	For example, no matter who (how beautiful, rich, famous...)
    tried to get a date with me next week, I am too busy.  I am committed
    to my theater group for the next 7 days running, and the next two
    weekends following those.  Throw in a business trip to Burlington
    VT, and a night to do my laundry and I'm pretty well tied up.  I'm
    also not a big one for long-term plans.  Eliminating the next ten
    days would be likely to cause me to issue a status of SS$_BUSY,
    and a request to catch me later...
    
    	(Anyone who might like to stake out some time with me during
    November, please call now, I don't have much left! ;-{) )
    
    	I recently had a dinner date cancel under ambiguous circumstances.
    My response on the day of the cancellation was "That's the way it
    goes sometimes..." and the next day I sent a brief note "Would you
    care to reschedule dinner?"
    
    					--Doug

    If a person wants to go out with you but is truly busy, generally
    that person will make sure that you know this. If the person just
    makes the excuse of being busy and doesn't make you feel encouraged
    to ask again, then it's a pretty good bet that BUSY is a code word
    for NO.
    --
    						Seth

    	I would have to agree (even in light of my previous note defending
    busy people).  The is a difference, and despite my assertion about
    not making long range plans, I would certainly try to pin down a
    mutually agreeable day past when the play opens.  I think my note
    was more me playing Devil's Advocate and a bit of a dig for declaring
    an "absolute generality"...
    
    Doug_who_believes_that_all_general_statements_are_false_including_this_one

       You know, its curious, but on many occasions when I have found
    myself enjoying an experience or the presence of another person
    I catch myself thinking about the future, how to prolong what I
    am feeling etc...  What bothers me is that while my mind is off
    somewhere else, I am not really able to experience what is going
    on in the present.  I think that there often is an imedeate need
    to posess the source of the good feeling or at least insure that
    it will happen again (a "second date").  Occasionally, in an effort
    to combat this feeling, I will play a game in which I pretend that
    I will never see this person again and that as a result of this
    constraint I WILL savour and cherish every moment that I have with
    this person NOW!  talk about INTENSITY! try it sometime...
       For example;  Recently I participated in a two-day Aikido retreat.
    During the course of the day many techniques were practiced.  Each
    technique was always practiced with a partner.  Some the the moves
    (for those who are familiar with Aikido) are very graceful and dance
    like.  During on of these sessions I was paired with a strikingly
    beautiful woman to whom I was very attracted.  During our practice
    I felt a delightful sense of playful energy as we both tried to
    see how close and how fast we could execute the move without colliding.
    All of a sudden I found myself thinking; "How am I going to ask
    her for her number and should I ask her out for coffee, lunch, dinner
    etc..." BOOM, we collided!  So I said to myself; "Martin, you are
    not going to ask her out, you are, however, going to enjoy every
    moment you have with her".  I still relish the thought of the
    excitement/energy that we shared...