[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

123.0. "Single to face the beast within ..." by MMO01::RESENDE (Life and love are all a dream) Wed Oct 29 1986 00:24

The last few topics have prompted me to finally post a topic I've considered 
tossing in for quite awhile.  I'm reluctant because I'm not sure I can 
verbalize it very well, but I'll give it a try and perhaps the ensuing 
discussion may bring it out more completely.

I have a "theory" about modern single life, more specifically about myself and 
many of my fellow "single againers".  When we talk about our deepest wishes and 
dreams, I sense a very common thread that runs very deeply in our souls.

It's a sort of melancholic theme, a sadness that escapes words, that somehow 
we want something very special more than anything else in life, but that we 
somehow lost it, or perhaps realize we never really had it, along the way.  
It's somehow related to, but not entirely explained as, not having a sense of
completeness, of being so wholly alone at times.

I think many of us repress this horrible feeling, and busy ourselves with daily 
activities, jobs, clubs, anything to keep us from confronting that "beast" that 
haunts us.  So we appear to all the happily (so it would appear) pair-bonded 
folks as coping individuals who are managing wonderfully as single people.  And 
we're pretty convincing ... to everyone, but ourselves in moments of honesty.

Now I do believe that there are some people who are really content as singles.  
I'm not saying *ALL* singles and single againers share this.  But many of my 
friends who are single, well, I sense this there, though they quickly bury it 
when it sneaks out.  We mustn't be vulnerable, you know.  I think I tune into 
it because I share it.  And I think they do likewise, else why the attempt to 
deny it's there?

Well, it's a wide-open topic.  I can't capture it in words well, but perhaps
the allusions will draw out the poets and deep thinkers among us who are much
better wordsmiths than I. 

If you understand what I'm trying to get into B&W, add help out and let's kick 
this around.  And if you don't understand, well, be gentle!  :-)

Steve
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
123.1Sociobiology, anyone?MINAR::BISHOPWed Oct 29 1986 01:3117
    Freud once said that there are only two things which people need
    to be happy: love and work.  When you lack one or the other, you
    get sick.  Singleness, insofar as it means being without someone
    to love or to love you, means that something is seriously lacking.
    Clearly, some people who are "single" in the usual sense are 
    still loved (for example, by parents) and love (for example, pets).
    
    Further, I suspect that humans are a pair-bonding species, and thus
    want to pair-bond.  The bonding mechanism is not very good (not
    very old evolutionarily), and uneven in its application, and varies
    a bit from person to person; yet the average adult feels the lack
    of a pair-bond as discomfort, and thus seeks such a bond.

    I've been legally single all my life.  I've been significant-otherly
    single more than not, but believe me, I've always prefered the
    "attached" state.
    				-John Bishop
123.3"Is that all there is?"CSSE::HAKIMWed Oct 29 1986 12:0125
    As a "single againer" that beast called aloneness has been lurking
    around my backdoor for almost 3 years now (not including the "alone
    years" I had when I was married). Of course on the surface we single
    folk appear to cope and handle the situation in a well balanced
    manner because the ugly truth is that most people don't want to
    be around someone who may be depressed or despaired, probably because
    they don't know how to handle that sense of feeling themselves.
    And the absolute worst is when your associates think they are
    complimenting you by telling you how "strong" you are. If only they
    had the strength to look a little deeper to see that they may be
    peering into a large black hole. Couple this with the single's attempt
    to fill that hole with a "meaningful" relationship and the scenario
    can become quite tension filled. You find that you are dealing
    with aloneness, rejection from those you are attracted to, invasion
    by those you are not attracted to, and a few temporary successes
    along the way. One thing I know of myself is that I am not the type
    of woman who will enjoy a rewarding life through soloing. And when
    I force myself to try and reconcile with the possibility of that,
    all my other little concerns become exaggerated. The most frightening
    times I have experienced are when I've been laying in bed at night
    and projecting myself into old age with the same apartment, the same
    furniture, no family left (I am by far the youngest) and being
    completely alone. You cry yourself to sleep out of fear...because
    you know that this can't possibly be all there is.....but then who
    knows.
123.4Just moi's opinion....MTV::FOLEYBoom shacka-lackaWed Oct 29 1986 12:0322
    
    	Being single ain't that bad.. It sure is better than being in
    a bad realtionship!  Isn't it better to be happy with yourself than
    being un-happy with yourself AND another person? Granted, if you
    can find a person to be happy with then you're doing just ducky
    but until that time it pays to learn to like yourself and make yourself
    happy..
    
    	Personally, I don't feel the "need" to be in a relationship
    anymore.. I've come to grips with that and I'm much more relaxed
    about things. When I meet the right person it'll be really nice.
    Until then I'm just livin day by day and enjoying what and who I
    can. The way it is now someone will enter into my life and we'll
    be able to enjoy each others company without losing the sense of
    self that I seem to have lost in other relationships. 
    
    	Remember, you can't MAKE someone happy. You can only make YOURSELF
    happy. When you have reached the point of being happy with yourself
    then you can be happy with someone else. (provided that they are
    happy too)
    
    							mike
123.5Gazing from my window...FINBAR::WALLI see the middle kingdom...Wed Oct 29 1986 12:1515
    
    Excellent points, all.
    
    I spend a great deal of time alone.  I do most of my work alone.
    Although I share an apartment with three other people, we all have
    different schedules and I often go days without seeing them.
    
    What I have come to realize is that while being alone is not always
    very pleasant, I have never found it to be absolutely unbearable.
    If I never find anyone to marry (or share a life with, if formalization
    is not your thing) I will get by.  It's not a prospect that causes
    me to whoop for joy and begin strewing roses from my hat, but it's
    a devil I know.
    
    DFW
123.6Ah, there's the rub!EDISON::JOYWed Oct 29 1986 13:4542
    I agree very much with .3, I am also not the type of woman who will
    feel complete if I spend my whole life alone. I've been "single
    again" now for almost 7 years with one very good relationship and
    a couple of bad ones during the interim.  I think the base note
    had the right idea as far as how on the outside we pretend we're
    content with work, the glories of being single and keep busy doing
    all kinds of things just to fill the emptiness. So what do we have
    now, a good job in the career of our choice, maybe financial stability,
    we can afford the things we want, can go where we want and when
    we want, the perfect example of YUPpie success? But WHO CARES? To
    have no one to share the success with makes the success pointless
    as far as I'm concerned. you can't snuggle with your paycheck on
    cold, lonely nights. I always had the idea that my biding my time
    and concentrating on other things besides my singleness would
    eventually pay off by finding the kind of man that I could have
    the kind of relationship with that I wanted. I've had a lot of time
    to figure out what it is I want in a relationship and maybe I'm
    too picky but why settle for less than I deserve, right? Well, I
    thought my patience and perserverence had finally paid off when
    I met someone a few months ago. Everything was clicking and falling
    into place and I remembered how happy I could really be because
    it came from inside not from outside. But then things started going
    wrong, caused I think by outside forces in his life (school, work,
    etc) and the relationship ended. I found out a relationship wasn't
    as important to him as school and work were although in the beginning
    he indicated that it was. While this has strayed from the original
    topic somewhat it boils down to how do we keep dealing with the
    rejections and hurts of failed relationships when a good relationship
    is so important? To some people failing at school or at work is
    the worst thing that could happen to them, psychologically, but
    to me and maybe you, failing at relationships over and over is just
    as traumatic. Is it a Catch-22 effect? We fail, so the next time
    we try harder to succeed which brings to much pressure into the
    relationship, so it fails,..... What is the ultimate outcome? Isolating
    yourself from the sex you prefer totally so you won't get hurt again?
    I honestly think I'd rather be dead than have that future to look
    forward to. This has been on my mind a lot lately due to this last
    failed relationship and I can't come up with a solution, keep trying
    at relationships and risk more hurt and more failure on the chance
    you may finally find the right person or stay totally away from
    relationships and live a fake life?
    
123.8Not so bad sometimesEUCLID::LEVASSEURWhat Goes Around Comes AroundWed Oct 29 1986 15:5546
     Alone, something I am 95% of the time. The most meaningful relation-
ship I had was with my ex-wife (8.5 years together). I suppose I'm guilty
of using her as a benchmark, against which other s.o's are measured. She
had a sensitivity that the 3 same sex relationships lacked, even short
lived relations with a couple of other women. I guess before divorce I
was afraid of being alone.
     Our parting was quite sudden, leaving me feeling like an abandoned
kid. I gave my 12 guage shotgun to a cousin, out of fear of, well doing
something stupid. The initial pain was almost unbearable, and one very
close and loving friend pulled me through, kept me active, out among
people. After a time, the deep hurt faded into a subtle, low grade
achy feeling, not feeling complete, feeling restless, etc. It's funny
but today the only time I feel alone/lonely is during the holiday
season, or when I vacation alone. Sometimes I feel a ping of lonliness
when I'm in a situation where I'm surrounded by couples or see couples
walking arm and arm. I don't dine out alone much since I usually get
seated by the kitchen or behind a potted plant. How many of you other
lone wolfs/wolfesses get treated the same way?
     I have not had an s.o. for going on three years. My last s.o. is
now trying to get back together with me, but that was 2 years of hell
dealing with an alcoholic, pathological liar, etc. It's funny, as
tempted as I was to say yes, I said No No No! I agree with someone
else who said *no* relationship is better than a bad, destructive one.
     There's an important distinction that I've learned, being alone
does not mean that I'm lonely. There is lonliness and there is sol-
itude and I enjoy my solitude. In a relationship, there really isn't
much time to have quality time by myself, because there is the other
half to take into consideration. There are committed long term couples
wo tell me they envy my freedom and I answer by telling them I envy
their committment and security.
     I really believe that we're hardwired as a species to pair up
in lifebonds with one person, whether it be same or opposite sexed
coupling. Society keeps sending out a subtle but powerful message,
to be part of a couple, look at advertising. I hvae noticed that
also in a nightclub/disco that when you're alone, people more or
less avoid you, people are either coupled or in groups of friends.
     I'm content in my aloneness when I'm on a day long bike trip,
hiking in the woods, walking a secluded beach (which is why Cranes
is my favorite beach), at the library or Museum of Fine Arts, etc.
If I know I'll be alone, I plan my leisure in ways that won't make
me feel bad about not having anyone else available for company.
    No, being alone is not essentially bad, it can be a time to
sort things out, find out what you really want to do.


Ray
123.10Let's try this one more time.CSSE::HAKIMThu Oct 30 1986 11:5017
    There is something in the tone of several of these notes that is
    a bit bothersome for me. My initial reply (.3) did not in any way
    mean to be interpreted, as "woe is me, the single alone female".
    It was written instead out of recognizing and admitting that although
    one can accomplish a state of happiness for themselves, some people
    cannot conceive of spending the rest of their lives without sharing
    it with someone special. I'm successful in my career, have an
    absolutely fabulous place to live, maintain some fine friendships,
    taken myself on vacations, etc. I have probably accomplished more
    for me in the past 2 1/2 years starting from nothing, than in my
    entire life. My single life has certainly been far from wasted...and in
    fact has been put to some pretty darn good use. I'm just willing
    to admit that it's getting pretty tiresome walking into an empty
    home every night.
    
    
    Ann
123.12Can't keep quiet any longer........HAVOC::PWILLIAMSThu Oct 30 1986 13:3627
    I can't stand just reading through these files anymore.  Time to
    add my 2 cents.
    
    I agree with the many comments regarding being single is much better
    than being in a destructive relationship.  I too was married and
    before that involved in plenty of "ugly" relationships.  I have
    been divorced for about a year now and have been doing alot of work
    for myself.  It seems that there are plenty of things I never realized
    about myself and am working on fixing some bad feelings brought
    on through childhood which in turn is making me realize why I've
    had such a terrible time with relationships.  I have never had a
    healthy relationship nor have I seen one in my family growing up.
    I have, however, been fortunate enough to see my friends go through
    ugly marriages and then come up with a wonderful relationship second
    time around, and I also (as rare as it is today) have known people
    that have never been divorced and have been married for 25+ years!
    I say all that to say that although a good relationship is unknown
    to me personally, I too have the faith that I will enjoy one in
    my life time.  How I long to do certain things with my life, but
    really want to do them with someone, and I don't think that's a
    bad wish to have.  In the meantime, I'm busy working out some internal
    problems and am learning to love myself first and hopefully someday
    to share it with someone else.  (Kind of like that song (which is
    really worn out thanks to the DJ's)- Whitney Houston - Learning
    to love yourself........
    
    - Petra
123.13your beast can be you favorite pet!REGENT::KIMBROUGHgailann, maynard, ma...Thu Oct 30 1986 17:0326
    
    
    When I first found myself single 5+ years ago my initial reaction
    was to rectify that just as soon as soon could possibly be!!  I
    looked at every male I met (as I did not date right away) and said
    to myself.. "hmmm.. could I be happy with him"?   It seemed at first
    I thought I could replace that which I had lost.  I had a very good
    friend, she is still my best friend, that kept reminding me that
    I was only 25 years old and that the world was not gonna end 'cuz
    I was single!!!  Well with her to help me I soon realized it was
    kinda fun being single.. I started enjoying my evenings that were
    just for me and buying clothes that I liked, and cooking food that
    I liked and watching programs just because they interested ME! 
    I am not advocating a life of singleness by any means..  I don't
    want to always be alone but geez it was/is nice finding that doing
    "for myself for myself" is kinda nice!!!
    
    I guess I am kinda selfish and certainly set in my ways now... 
    I like someone around when I feel the need for companionship and
    am very stingy with my time and giving of myself when I feel the
    need to be alone and do things for myself...    Oh well... I just
    wanted to say that I found out after a fashion that I like my beast.. !!
    
    later, gailann
                                                   
               
123.14AKOV68::BOYAJIANThe Mad ArmenianFri Oct 31 1986 04:599
    My feelings echo those of Mike Foley. I have for the most part
    been single for the last 10 years. I have an SO, but she lives
    in Minneapolis, so we don't spend a whole lot of time together.
    
    I've learned to be at peace with myself and by myself. I prefer
    the company of others, especially a certain Other, but I've
    found that I'm perfectly comfortable with only myself for company.
    
    --- jerry
123.17Blowin' in the windMMO01::PNELSONLonging for TopekaFri Oct 31 1986 22:5629
    I had to cogitate long and hard on this one.  After 10 years of
    un-singleness, followed by 5 years of singleness, I am positive
    that being single is orders of magnitude better than being in a
    bad marriage.
    
    When I read Gailann's note, I kept thinking it could have been written
    by me.  After five years I STILL enjoy the personal space and freedom I
    have being single.  Because of that, and even more because of the
    risk involved when you give yourself in a relationship, I'd be somewhat
    surprised if I ever got married again.  Never say never, but I would
    be surprised.
    
    But there are times...  Well, today for example.  I woke up this
    morning to the most beautiful fall day Alabama has ever seen.
    Temperature in the low 70's, sun shining so bright it blinded me,
    leaves all red and golden, and a nice steady breeze blowing.  I called
    the office, told them I was taking a day of vacation, and me and my dog
    spent the day on my sailboat lazily watching the world go by.  If
    someone asked me to describe a perfect day, I'd tell them about today.
    I'd have given almost anything to have had someone special to share
    that with. It was wonderful alone, but a day like today needs to be
    shared with someone you care about, whether it's an SO or just a
    close friend.
    
    What's the answer?  Well, I believe you have to choose whether you
    want to have your cake or eat it.  As for me, I'll just continue
    to drift and let the winds of fate decide my future!
    
    							Pat
123.18Misery < Single < Ultra-HappyMMO01::RESENDELife and love are all a dreamSat Nov 01 1986 06:3543
Seems like a lot of folks took a rather negative view of this.  Specifically, I 
was surprised that so many said, more or less, "being single is better than 
being in a *BAD* marriage".  I won't argue that.  My question is why settle for 
less.  Is it not also true (for some of us that want it all) that "being single 
is worse than being in a *GOOD* marriage"?  How come no one took that position? 

Gee ... whiz.

Like many, I've found my time of singleness to be a time of self improvement 
and personal growth, and far better than the unpleasant relationship that 
preceded it.  And I'm a much better person for having had this time to develop 
on my own.  And I plan on continuing to develop until I pass beyond this "veil 
of tears".  

However, what keeps me going from day to day is the hope/belief that someday I
will have something more.  I get tired of coming home to an empty nest (or
having someone come home to me), of coming home to an airport and no one being
there to greet me (or being there to greet them), of not having someone with
which to plan our lives together.  I can't tell you what it would mean to
arrive at my home airport after a week on the road and have someone there to
give me a big hug and be happy to see me. 

I have to think that life (for me) was meant to share with someone, to be able
to care deeply for someone and be willing to sacrifice for them because I love
them (and hopefully them for me if need be).  Call it pair-bonding if you will,
altho that sounds too scientific and calculating and detached.  I just want to
*share* life, good and bad, with someone special; so they know I love them and
that they love me.

Is that asking too much?

Remember I can only speak for myself.  You may be single and be totally and 
completely happy and fulfilled.  And if so, I envy you and share your joy.  But 
I have to have a close and special relationship to give me that extra "high" of 
being totally blissful.  For years I felt guilty about that need and tried to 
deny it.  But I've decided that it, for me, indicates my humanity and that 
it's *OK* to feel that way.  So I won't apologize for it.

But I wanted to open this topic to see how other's felt and I'm thankful for 
the sharing that you all have done.  Hopefully more insightful ideas will 
continue to be posted.

Steve 
123.19MMO01::RESENDELife and love are all a dreamSat Nov 01 1986 06:5355
RE:  .15

Bob,

I guess I have to take exception to your exceptions!

>    re: .0
>    ...    
>    1st Exception: A pair of people don't EACH "need to be happy"
>    in order for ONE of them to be happy (satisfied), and the  other
>    "goes along" with it, for whatever reasons of "choice".

Your "quotation" puzzles me.  I never said that.  In fact, I never mention 
"need to be happy" or anything of the sort in .0.  

>    2nd exception: As often as I might think "it's be nice" to share
>    "home and hearth" with that "special one - S0 -"; it's only nice
>    if you keep on speaking terms, and in general complement each others
>    lives in a "positive" manner.  There are very few things "worse"
>    than to be "stuck" in a legal bond with someone who not only doesn't
>    like you anymore, doesn't want to intereact postively with you,
>    and "knows" there's NO LEGAL reason why they should !

See my comments on the previous note (.18) on this issue.  I agree with you.  
But why "take exception"?  With what in .0 were you disagreeing?  Maybe I 
missed the boat ....
    
>    I think the scenario presented by another person in another note
>    had the right idea " ... get yourself a nice young <person of legal
>    age>, make love often and vigourously, then let them go home, and
>    you can keep peace and quiet in your own home till you need them
>    again". (Actually, someones Grandmothers advice, paraphrased for
>    'equality'.)

Well, that sounds pretty good to me on the surface.  

But on second reading it sounds more like "I'll call you when I need you, you
are an object to satisfy my needs, you have no value to me other than to
satisfy a void in me". 

And that doesn't sound so nice at all.  What's missing is that ethereal mystery 
known as "love".  My working definition of it includes being concerned with 
ANOTHER's well-being and happiness FOR ITS OWN SAKE, not because you benefit 
from it.

I won't deny that we form relationships, at least in part, because we "need" 
something that the other person can provide us (security, sex, money, take your 
pick).  But that can NOT (in my opinion) be the basis for a top-notch 
relationship that satisfies DEEP DOWN where it counts.  That "love" must also 
be there.

But "lust" ain't so bad ... I'm not advocating its elimination!  ;'}
If you experience it, you're still alive!

Steve
123.20Forgive me, another try at this one...MMO03::PNELSONLonging for TopekaSat Nov 01 1986 21:2729
    After re-reading .0, I realized that I didn't answer the question.
    So here's another try.
    
    Yes, I feel the emptiness.  "Is this all there is?"  Yes, and the
    feeling of being incomplete, of needing and wanting something more. And
    yes, if I thought for one minute I could have a real, lasting, happy
    relationship, the storybook kind, then I'd want very much to be
    married.  I've known a few (very few) couples like that, and life would
    certainly be complete if it included that kind of sharing, that kind of
    love.  And (finally) yes, I keep it inside, try not to think about
    it, try to involve myself in something else, anything else.  Yep,
    all those things.
    
    I can remember my grandparents in their 90's sitting on the couch
    watching TV and holding hands.  But for every one of those truly
    complete couples, how many are there who don't make it?  Oh, I know the
    divorce rate is 50%, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.  How many
    are there who never divorce but just exist together with no love, no
    friendship, no real relationship at all?  How many? What are the
    chances of finding that real happiness?   And if you DO find it, what
    are the chances it will last?  And what is the price you pay in pain if
    it doesn't last? 
    
    So I just go on keeping it inside and burying myself in Digital
    and sailing and whatever else I can find.  It's not a bad life.

    				Sorry to be so verbose on this one,
    
    				Pat
123.22All good things must end, so should we avoid them?MMO03::RESENDELife and love are all a dreamSun Nov 02 1986 00:1174
A further comment on singlehood, sparked by a book I've been reading called 
"Necessary Losses - the loves, illusions, dependencies and impossible 
expectations that all of us have to give up in order to grow" by Judith 
Viorst.

The most offered reason thus far here for continued singlehood appears to be 
fear of a bad relationship, whatever that is defined to be.  While reading 
with this topic in mind, another thought came to me.

Let's play a fantasy for a moment.  Let's assume that I am fortunate enough to 
find a person with which I am very happy and vice versa.  And we spend the 
rest of our lives together happily.  [Now don't start quoting me statistics on 
divorce etc.  I said this was a fantasy, which should be in line with the 
prevailing opinion I sense in this topic ... :-)]

Now, the odds are that sooner or later, one of us is going to die.  For the 
sake of argument, let's assume it is not me [statistically, I'm more likely to 
die first because I'm male and we die somewhere around 7+ years before females 
of the same general age].  If I accept the logic of many, who say that we
shouldn't get involved because most relationships will end in divorce or be
"bad", then I in my fantasy have made a mistake, because now my relationship 
has ended [remember, there's no marriage in heaven according to our religious 
leaders ;'}].

Now, I can not imagine a more heart-breaking and wrenching hurt than to spend 
10, 20, 30, or 50 years with someone so intimately and then lose them.  But, 
that is exactly what will happen, even to all those "few" couples we know who 
are enjoying that "perfect" [to us] relationship.

So, is it a mistake to want it?

I suggest not.  I suggest that the end of the relationship is not the point, 
but the process of the relationship is what matters.  If I had some good times 
along the way, hopefully many years of happy sharing and caring, then I have 
beat old man death in a way.  I have managed to obtain some of heaven in this 
lifetime.  And I don't subscribe to the theory that I should defer happiness 
in this life to a life to follow [Lord, I can see the flames coming.]

So, what's the point?  Should we avoid seeking good relationships because they 
are not likely?  No.  Should we be afraid of failure?  Well, if we don't 
try, we won't fail [it could be argued that this is a failure or a different 
kind ...]; and guarantee that we will never have a shot at that "low
probability" happening of a good relationship.  As maturing human beings, we 
recognize that we run the risk of disappointment and pain when we reach out to 
another.  But if we live our lives without reaching out on the deepest levels, 
where we have the greatest capacity to live and love, then we not only cheat 
ourselves of the best we can be, but we are depriving each other.

On a personal note, when I became single again, I swore to myself that I'd 
*never* again let myself be vulnerable to be hurt so deeply.  And now a few 
more miles down the road, I realize that that was a mistake.  I felt that I 
could never survive another failure of such magnitude.  And I'm not totally 
convinced that I would, even now.  However, I'm even more convinced that I 
would be depriving myself of the essence of life by avoiding the opportunity 
for such a relationship.  So, I will risk it again and be open to it should 
life present another chance.

And to close, here's a thought-provoking entry from that book which somewhat 
relates to this:

"A person spends years coming into his own, developing his talent, his unique 
gifts, perfecting his discriminations about the world, broadening and 
sharpening his appetite, learning to bear the disappointments of life, 
becoming mature, seasoned - finally a unique creature in nature, standing with 
some dignity and nobility and transcending the animal condition; no longer 
driven, no longer a complete reflex, not stamped out of any mold.  And then 
the real tragedy ...: that it takes sixty years of incredible suffering and 
effort to make such an individual, and then he is good only for dying."
			- Ernest Becker from Chapter 19 "The ABC of Dying"
			in "Necessary Losses" by Judith Viorst

Live well,

Steve
123.23Transcendence ...MMO03::RESENDELife and love are all a dreamSun Nov 02 1986 04:2320
`We try and we keep on trying because an unconnected life is not worth living.  
A life of solitude cannot be borne.  In an eloquent passage, Erich Fromme 
writes:

	"Man is gifted with reason; he is `life being aware of itself' ...This
	awareness of himself as a separate entity, the awareness of his own
	short life span, of the fact that without his will he is born and
	against his will he dies, that he will die before those whom he loves,
	or they before him, the awareness of his aloneness and separateness,
	of his helplessness before the forces of nature and of society, all
	this makes his separate, disunited existence an unbearable prison.  He
	would become insane could he not liberate himself from this prison
	and reach out, unite ..."

`And so our noble achievement - the winning of separateness, of self - will 
also always be our grievous loss.  That loss is necessary - there can be no 
human love without that loss.  But through our love that loss may be 
transcended.'
		- Chapter 10 `Lessons in Love'
		"Necessary Losses" by Judith Viorst
123.25NANOOK::SCOTTLooking towards the sunSun Nov 02 1986 22:5193


          I was going to leave myself out of placing a  reply  in
     this topic along with the two topics on first/second dating.
     They seem to drive home too hard for me but, there seems  to
     be  something I want to say and have attempted a dozen times
     to write it down only to not finish what  I  started.   Most
     recently was a prior reply in this topic which starts to say
     pretty much what I feel but then takes a fatalistic view.  I
     wanted  to  make  a reply to that but then thought better to
     leave it alone.  I can't find it in myself  to  flame  at  a
     person  for their feelings.  I still wanted to say something
     cause it kind of disturbs me a little, maybe because I  felt
     much  that  way  a  year  and  a  half ago.  So I write this
     without any direction to any one person  but  to  the  three
     topics.

          At that time of separation from my ex wife, I was  very
     much  down  on  dating  and  after reading the two topics on
     dating I wanted to make a reply there but how do you try  to
     feel  good  and  be  upbeat on a topic with so many negative
     vibes.  With so many lower case flames.

          As for being single, I do feel  incomplete  and  empty.
     I've been in my own world for 5 or so years now, even though
     I've been divorced for only 1+.  I once loved  someone  very
     much but that relation only lasted for 4 months.  Those four
     months meant so very much to me.  It showed  me  what  being
     able  to  share one's life is about.  The memories remind me
     that I do want very much to share my life with someone else.

          In reading the replies to these three topics I seem  to
     come  up with the feeling that people don't want to make any
     type of commitment to anyone unless they can  see  immediate
     benefits.   Why  must  we  find the perfect mate in order to
     give sincere commitment to them?  If I were to listen to the
     dating  topics,  I would be so down on dating, I don't think
     I'ld bother asking anyone out.  I'ld be too  afraid  that  I
     might  be  hurting someone because I had the audacity to ask
     for that second date.  If I were to listen to  some  of  the
     replies in this topic, I'ld be afraid of looking for someone
     to share my life with because the perfect relationship  only
     exists  in fantasy land.  Maybe they don't truly exist but I
     still want to share my life with another.  I know  the  odds
     of  such  are  small, but they're not so small that I should
     give up.  I also realize I might end  up  with  another  bad
     relationship  and  will have to start again.  The four month
     relation I mention was with a married woman and I knew  from
     the  start  that  it was doomed.  Still, I feel it was worth
     every bit of pain and would  go  through  it  again  knowing
     there was pain to follow.

          If I were asked for a date, or asked for a second date,
     I'ld  commit  myself as best as I could.  No, I'm not saying
     to myself "This one may be it".  It's just that I'm  willing
     to  take the chance realizing I will probably get burned.  I
     mean, after all, I'm only  committing  myself  to  a  fellow
     human  being.   I know my wall does exist and I'm constantly
     fighting it.  What I feel is more  like  "I'ld  much  rather
     have loved and lost then not have loved at all".

          To me, it's very much like sailing.  This  last  summer
     there  was  only two very special days of sailing for me.  A
     few other days were ok and I did enjoy it and the  rest  was
     spent  alone  due  to  rain or not having a crew mate.  Does
     this mean I should give up sailing?  The two  great  days  I
     had  sailing  was shared and worth giving up the rest of the
     summer.  I'ld do it again.

          Keep in mind, I'm not a commune hippie or flower  child
     or  religious fanatic and to this end, let me just say, I've
     found a sort of love for each and  every  one  of  you.   To
     think  that  all  of  a  sudden  you  people could become so
     negative, disappoints me.

          I just don't know,  maybe  it's  me.   Maybe  I'm  just
     reading  your  thoughts  wrong.   But  why  would only three
     topics give me such an impression?  I've laughed,  and  I've
     cried  with  other  topics but there has been something that
     has hit me so different here.  I don't think it was just one
     or two replies but the overall tone.

          I guess what I am trying to say here is "to  hell  with
     the  damned  beast  within".  It's not so bad that we should
     feel some pain when working on new relationships, but should
     we  give  up  actively seeking them and working towards them
     because of pain.  If we give this up to  the  single  beast,
     then I can only ask, whats the sense in it?, why bother?.

     A thousand sunburns are worth that one ray of good sun,

     lee
123.26Still waters run deep?MMO01::RESENDELife and love are all a dreamMon Nov 03 1986 04:0949
    RE:  .25
    
    Lee,
    
    Thank you for a very thoughtful reply.  It will take me time to
    digest it and give it the thought it deserves.  
    
    But I would like to say one thing about one point you raise - about
    the "negative" nature of the topic, about it being hard to approach.
    
    As I said in the base note, I myself have difficulty in dealing
    with this, and have noticed the same reticence in a number of my
    single friends.  I felt that whatever "it" was that was so common
    and so "difficult", it merited an attempt to bring it out into the
    open daylight so that it could be examined, discussed by us all
    and allow us to share our experience, and perhaps to unmask "the
    beast" and exorcise it, or at least understand what was seemingly
    so hard for us to face.
    
    I'll be almost the first to admit that it's hardly the most positive
    and uplifting of topics, but I don't think that that means it should
    be ignored.  On the contrary, I felt it was important because it
    seemed to be something a lot of us share in common, although we
    rarely share it with each other.
    
    I'm learning a lot from the interaction, and am not really depressed
    by what I hear.  Although I can see how the dialogue could be
    interpreted as very negative on relationships, I don't view it that
    way.  The fact that we all admit we're afraid of being hurt and
    rejected, of being lonely, simply emphasizes to me that we are all
    fellow human (as in human relations) beings who share this planet
    for a season in the sun.  And knowing that we share such common
    beliefs helps lay a foundation for better and more honest communication
    with each other.
    
    It was *never* my intention to lay something heavy or depressing
    on anyone.  However, it is a "deep" subject, probably deeper than we
    are accustomed to share with each other easily.  Perhaps we are
    more comfortable living at a shallower level, lest we run aground
    so to speak.  But I'm a firm believer in the "still waters run deep"
    view of life - that every once in awhile it's healthy to delve down
    and see what's inside.  Gee, can I mix my metaphors or what!
    
    Besides, there's plenty of lighter topics around - check out the
    current "Laughter" topic for a breather!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve
123.27NANOOK::SCOTTLooking towards the sunWed Nov 05 1986 22:5831


     Suzanne and Steve, and everyone else,

          I do realize these topics are hard to talk about and do
     expect  emotions  to  run deep.  After being acquainted with
     everyone here I would expect nothing less and  would  expect
     to  have  some very open conversation.  I hope my reply will
     not in any way stifle this as that was not the intent.   The
     topics do not disturb me and I would be very much willing to
     respond to all of them  in  the  most  open  and  honest  of
     manors.   What I was troubled about was some of the flaming.
     Perhaps more so, though I should and will try to  understand
     better,  was  some  of  what  I  took  to be a very negative
     attitude.  I will re-read the replies and  try  to  look  on
     them a little more open minded keeping the thought that they
     maybe represent more the feelings of the  individuals  which
     are much harder to talk/write about.

          I hope no one took my reply (.25)  to  be  a  "COOL  IT
     GUYS"  statement.   I  did not take any offense to any reply
     and would find it very hard to take any offense to any  open
     remark  made.   I'm  too  easy going for that.  My reply was
     more  to  hopefully  redirect  the  topics  to  being   more
     constructive.   Perhaps  I over-replied but then again I did
     want to state what I felt about where the topics were going.

     Open sunshine never hurts,

     Lee
123.29--- N I C E W O R K ---ATFAB::REDDENError TolerantThu Nov 06 1986 11:047
    I haven't read anything in this note that I couldn't get in touch
    with, and I appreciate the opportunity to understand my own feelings
    thru each of your expressions.  The stuff that I initially find
    offensive/wrong/stupid *ALMOST* always touches some aspect of me
    that I am not being honest about.  I hope you will not refrain from
    trying to express yourself because you are not sure of your feelings
    or you are concerned about being "wrong".
123.30Freedom and/or loneliness = ??HBO::HENDRICKSHollySun Nov 16 1986 00:2848
    I spent 5 years married, 5 years in a primary relationship, and
    5 years single (with a non-committed lover for two of those years).
    I am back in an SO type of relationship now, and am reflecting a
    lot on all the different variations.
    
    During the years I was married, the worst feature of the last two-three
    years was boredom.  We didn't fight, but we were so unstimulating
    to one another.  It was hard to wrench myself out of it, but once
    I did, we were both relieved after the initial shock wore off. 
    It was a relief to leave.  I gloried in my freedom at first, and
    spent several months doing what I wanted.  After a while I got back
    into a fairly committed SO type of relationship.  I think the feelings
    of loneliness began to outweigh the joys of freedom, and once the
    balance tipped significantly I was open to a relationship.  That
    relationship was great for 3 years, and then began to be characterized
    by more and more fighting, different goals, and so forth.  So I
    left again, again I felt relieved to be free and not have to account
    for myself.  Freedom outweighed loneliness.
    
    I chose to plunge into some deep personal growth work, and lived
    in a spiritual/therapeutic community for four years.  I was very
    grateful not to be distracted by a relationship, although there
    were times when it would have been nice.  All in all, I think I
    got more from that time from being able to be with myself.  After
    I got what I needed there, and made some changes in my life, and
    came to work for DEC, the equation got out of balance again.  Part
    of it was being constantly surrounded by members of couples whose
    main non-work conversation consisted of discussions of families,
    homes, and vacations.  Part of it was no longer being in community,
    and feeling lonely.  Sure enough, a relationship came along, and
    I have been putting a lot of energy into it for seven months now.
    My SO and I have a lot more freedom than I had in other relationships,
    but since we are not as "symbiotic" as I have been with other SO's,
    I still get lonely even within the context of the relationship.
    
    There are a lot of things I like about the relationship--it seems
    like something I could live with for a long time.  We are both
    independent adults, and not struggling kids/students/unemployed
    people.  
    
    We spend a lot of time in one another's company, but often what
    I want is to go off and do something on my own and just know that
    my SO will be there when I get home.  But just before I got into
    this relationship my feelings of loneliness and frustration were
    strong enough that I didn't *want* to go off and do much on my own.
    
    I appreciate these types of discussions in this file
    
123.31Challenge the Beast WithinTORCH::JOLLYWed Feb 18 1987 18:0614
    As a married person, but actually a single person, I too feel exactly
    what you are trying to say.  I almost want to say that LONELY covers
    the feelings of need more than desire a special someone.  There
    is no special someone!  It's like the song..."You know what Paradise
    is?  It's a lie.  A fantasy we create about people as we like them
    to be.  But what is truth is that little baby you're holding and
    that man you fought with this morning, the same one you'll make
    live with tonight, that's truth, that's love..."  Since it's a lie,
    that's why we have work, friends (single or otherwise), clubs, etc.
    Only we can be that special someone, nobody else!  The feelings
    re definately the work of the beast to destroy self confidence!
    
    jean
    
123.32NRLABS::TATISTCHEFFSat Feb 21 1987 17:0010
    One of my best friends and I occasionally talk about how funny we
    will be when we get older.  The image of the two of us, 80+ year
    old ladies, in rocking chairs on the porch, cackling away, and the
    bewildered reactions of our descendants (Crazy old Grandma...),
    can be very comforting.
    
    If I never find an SO, at least I will always have friends who love
    me...
    
    Lee
123.33SEMI-SORT-OF-SINGLE!CSMADM::GOINSTue Sep 22 1987 20:5138
    You can't win unless you play!
    You'll never know, unless you try!
    
    That's my attitude,
    
    I'm 30, have never been married, my own boss, come and go as I please,
    do my own thing.  It seems when you get to that point of being set
    in your ways, you're not too sure whether you will be happy giving
    all that up.  I don't think you should have to account to anyone
    to that extent.  If it's true love, they will trust you, and if
    you're really happy at home, you won't need to come and go as you
    please that much.  Sure, I think I would like nothing more than
    the search to be over.  But I think that's because I've never been
    there.  Even my ex-boyfriend who has been there 3 times, when I
    left him because he was dead set against marriage, said:  "Sure,
    go back home, get married, you need to get your feet wet, and when
    you find out it's not what it's all cracked up to be, come back
    and see me".  I think that is a definite loser "attitude".  You
    have to want it bad enough, to make it work!
    
    My present status, I'm involved in a long-distance love affair
    with my best friend.  He's 30 (married once, only lasted 1/2 yr)
    neither of us have kids.  I plan to relocate with him when he
    gets back from his Greenland assignment in May.  I know that's
    a long time and I do get tired of coming home to an empty house,
    but at least I have a video of him & I during his last visit 
    that I can view when I miss him.  If he's not Mr. Right, there
    is no such thing.  So I'll wait and if I'm wrong about him, God
    help me.  Friends and family tell me I should keep something on
    the back burner just in case, but that wouldn't be fair to this
    relationship.  I tell them I'm devoted but I'm not dead.  In other
    words I can still have a good time even though he can't be hear
    to share it with me and I think that's good.  It's not smart to
    be totally dependant on another person, you're leaving yourself
    wide open for self-destruction.
    
    Thaaaats all folks!