| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 105.1 | how far can you go? | USMRW4::AFLOOD | BIG AL | Mon Oct 20 1986 21:31 | 21 |
| For me, worth dying for;
I would die defending my freedoms(i.e., my country) from being
suppressed or taken away.
I would give of myself regardless of life risking situation
i.e. pushing someone out of way of speeding car,
pulling someone out of a burning car,
trying to help someone being mugged
I would not die for love of a specific woman i.e., battle with another guy
as that love is not worth death.
I would risk death to give organs to a child who otherwise would
not have a life to live.
al
|
| 105.6 | A.F.F.A. | FDCV13::CALCAGNI | | Tue Oct 21 1986 15:04 | 16 |
|
What would we die for? Good question . We can all put down our feelings
like hell I'd die for Mon, Apple pie and the American way!
I don't care what you say you'll never really know until you're
there! When the reaper is pointing right at you!
Let me tell you your values are going to make quite some changes.
I'd die to protect my family without thinking. To keep them safe,sound,
and healthy! Nothing else matters.
And that's the name of that tune!
Cal
|
| 105.7 | ex | NFL::GIRARD | | Tue Oct 21 1986 15:17 | 10 |
| From a person who wakes up every day a little nearer to death
than the average person... If a circumstance ever came that there
was no other option but to give my life to save another - it would
be for my son. For all those parental reasonings behind the statement,
at times I love him more than myself.
I would hope that in this day and age our intellect would conquer
all threats. But I am a dreamer by nature.
GRG
|
| 105.8 | After much thought..... | HERMES::CLOUD | I'm on the inside looking out! | Wed Oct 22 1986 00:43 | 9 |
| Tough question....after thinking about it for a couple
days, I would have to say I would die to defend our country
from invading forces. This is a must! I would think that
every American should! Watch me get my tail fried for THAT
statement! Also, if I had a family, I would die protecting
them. Good point .7!
Phil
|
| 105.10 | | COOKIE::SUSSWEIN | | Wed Oct 22 1986 19:44 | 11 |
| RE: .8
In Israel, women do NOT serve in combat. They ARE drafted, like
all Israeli citizens, but for 2 years instead of 3, and serve in
support positions, as clerks, technicians, radar operators, etc.
Unlike the U.S., they aren't even eligible for combat specific training
(e.g. jet pilots).
Steve
(who served for three years in the Israeli Air Force)
|
| 105.11 | If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. | HERMES::CLOUD | I'm on the inside looking out! | Wed Oct 22 1986 21:13 | 17 |
| RE: Equal rights for women...
Now, I know I'm going to get myself torched for this, but
here's something to chew on. A couple of friends and I were talking
the other day about women in the services. Moreover, inasmuch as
women are taking in all the more dangerous duties...paratrooping
and the like. Someone said that they shouldn't be doing that. I
disagreed stating that "Hey! They know the risks. If they don't
want to die fighting, then they have no business in the services!"
I'm sorry, but I have to stick with my statement. If women want
to play mens' games, then they have to play by ALL the rules!
I welcome all flames!
Phil
|
| 105.12 | No flames here | MMO01::PNELSON | Longing for Topeka | Wed Oct 22 1986 21:21 | 2 |
| Here's a female opinion -- I agree!
|
| 105.13 | Women are better at covert operations | ATFAB::REDDEN | Listening slowly | Wed Oct 22 1986 23:10 | 5 |
| For covert military opns, women are almost always more effective.
While operations are designed to avoid combat, they do involve
an element of risk that our society has previously deemed unacceptable.
This data is from JFK Center for Special Warfare, Ft. Bragg
|
| 105.14 | women should be equal in war time | TWEED::B_REINKE | | Wed Oct 22 1986 23:59 | 5 |
| If there is going to be a draft then women should be drafted just
as men are. Those that show the apptitude for combat should be
given the opportunity, the same as men.
Bonnie
|
| 105.15 | Side question | MINAR::BISHOP | | Thu Oct 23 1986 00:38 | 12 |
| There are people (I'm one) who believe that a draft is slavery,
and thus a great moral evil. Drafting women may be more equal,
but not better.
I don't want to debate the belief above--this is neither Soapbox
nor Forum. But it does bring up a "human relations" problem,
viz:
How do you relate to people who strongly hold beliefs you strongly
hold to be monstrously wrong?
-John Bishop
|
| 105.18 | Let's hear it for the ladies!! | REGENT::MOZER | HCC ;-) | Thu Oct 23 1986 11:36 | 5 |
|
I personally applaud all of you ladies who have put REPLYs in this
NOTE that truely support and promote TOTAL sexual equality!!
Joe
|
| 105.19 | let's start a new note. | VAXWRK::NORDLINGER | In a GALAXY far, far away | Thu Oct 23 1986 12:33 | 20 |
| At risk of encouraging this tangent, I must say that women
in the service in a mistake. My own experience, trained as a
Calvalry Scout at Fort Knox, has been that training is markedly
less severe for females and all included are brought to the lowest
level of athletic performace, for example full packed marches.
More convincing is the argument Plato puts forth in the
Republic which claims women will cause disunity among the ranks.
They do, more than anything else I've seen.
Finally I don't know too many females that have the moral
level of insensitivity to be effective soldiers. To kill.
The above argument only applies to military during peace time,
otherwise a fine counterexample to my position would be the
fearless girls (the average age in Nicaragua is < 15) defending their
country in Nicaragua and the Isreali's (ten years ago when they were
defensive).
|
| 105.20 | | CSC32::WOLBACH | | Thu Oct 23 1986 13:17 | 9 |
| Another feminine voice heard from: I also agree
that women should serve along side men. Equal
rights in ALL areas.
I disagree with the draft in general, for men or
women.
Deb.
|
| 105.21 | | PARITY::DDAVIS | | Thu Oct 23 1986 13:38 | 7 |
| Did any of you watch Tom Brokaw on Channel 4 News this week? He
is doing a segment on "Women in the Military" and they interviewd
women Marines, and of the ones interviewed, all the women said that
they want to be treated as Marines, not women Marines, that they
should go into combat, if necessary, kill or be killed, in times
of war. It's what they joined the military for. I agree - Equal
Rights for all.
|
| 105.22 | more on women in the service | STUBBI::B_REINKE | | Thu Oct 23 1986 14:17 | 19 |
| set note = tangent
The last time I remember reading anything about, it the ratio of
non combat types to combat types in the military was over 20 to 1.
Assuming women were drafted equally with men the vast majority would
wind up in non combat positions and only the few who had the aptitude
would end up in combat. Also having women in support roles in combat
zones would potentially free up more men to fight. (If that is an
issue.)
I am personally against the draft. However, the current rules
mean that women in the service do not have the chances for advancement
that men do, especially those who are officers.
In the Coast Guard they do allow women to command ships. The officer
who heads the coast guard has publically stated that if he has a
ship commanded by a woman in a zone where war breaks out, there
is no way he is going to send in a helicopter and pull her out!
Bonnie
|
| 105.23 | Licensed to kill... | BIZET::COCHRANE | Send lawyers, guns and money. | Thu Oct 23 1986 14:42 | 6 |
| Two wrongs don't make a right. *Nobody* should be drafted.
Killing is wrong. Women should be able to do what they want
if military service is their *choice*, but you won't catch me
with a gun in my hand...
MM
|
| 105.24 | Oops...pardon my tangent | HERMES::CLOUD | I'm on the inside looking out! | Thu Oct 23 1986 15:17 | 9 |
|
Re: all since my last statement..
No flames? It would seem that I have hit upon a morally
acceptable issue? That's odd...
Phil
|
| 105.25 | equal treatment for ME, too, if you please! | HECTOR::RICHARDSON | | Thu Oct 23 1986 15:52 | 7 |
| I don't like the idea of a peace-time (at least) draft, either,
but I too agree that if it is necessary, it ought to apply to everyone
equally. That might even help us to avoid getting ensnarled in
more wars...and would, if we landed in one anyhow, provide a larger
pool of people to do the necessary!
/Charlotte
|
| 105.26 | Count Me Out | ARMORY::SEABURYM | | Thu Oct 23 1986 16:34 | 18 |
| I am not sure dying for my country is very noble or smart. George
Patton made what I consider the most intelligent remark on the idea of
dying for one's country. It would have to be a very specific set of
circumstances that would get me to sign on the dotted line again. I
am not going to go get myself killed for the profit margin of some
defense contractor or to make some place safe for Chase Manhattan
Bank.
As for women in the military,no problem. I served with women
both ashore and afloat when I was in the Coast Guard. They were treated
the same as we all were . Some were very good at what they did and some
were not and the same could be said of the men I served with. In short
sailors is sailors.
I agree with the person who said you will never know until you
find yourself in the position to have to make a life or death choice.
Talk is cheap.
Mike
|
| 105.28 | Patton Quote, I think | MINAR::BISHOP | | Thu Oct 23 1986 18:09 | 6 |
| The Patton quote refered to is one he addressed to some soldiers:
"Your job is not to die for your country. Your job is to make the
other guy die for his country."
-John Bishop
|
| 105.29 | | KRELL::FRASER | Andy, WACE Product Assurance Group. | Thu Oct 23 1986 18:14 | 8 |
|
> Personally I think that all politicians should be required
>to serve in EVERY war ON THE FRONT LINES. It might enhance
>their judgement.
re: -1 - you said it all for me!
Andy
|
| 105.30 | Please Have A Seat | ARMORY::SEABURYM | | Thu Oct 23 1986 19:03 | 11 |
|
Send them to the front, Great Idea!!!!
Russell Baker, who writes for the N.Y. Times once suggested
a law that would require the President to sit on the White House
lawn in the event of a nuclear war. He feels its not so bad if
you are the guy with the key to the airborne command center so it
might be a good idea to change the rules a bit. Nuclear war becomes
a lot less thinkable if you have to sit on the lawn at ground zero
Mike
|
| 105.31 | Do I havta die to give my life? | ATFAB::REDDEN | plan_or_be_planned_for | Thu Oct 23 1986 19:51 | 4 |
| If I say I am willing to die for something, am I implicitly
saying that I am also willing to live for it. It seems to me more
challenging, worthwhile and difficult to decide to dedicate my life
to something rather than give my life for something.
|
| 105.32 | " "better red than dead" "????? | USMRW4::AFLOOD | BIG AL | Thu Oct 23 1986 21:23 | 57 |
| The replies to this note seem to have digressed from what you would
die for, to equality of sexes in the armed forces, to I wouldn't
die for my country. Sounds to me like like human relations is dipping
into a political discussion. /\ /\
\ /
\ /
someone mentioned how you really can't talk
on the terminal in your normal manner, well
the terminal is starting to show my ocassional
lapses of stuttering!!!
Where was I?? As far as fighting wars to protect the rich goes,
JFK came from landed gentry as did his brother(I don't look up to
the kennedy clan-in general I don't support their political philosophy)
and there are numerous of what we call today the rich who did their
time and served for their country.
So let's leave the excuse about defending the country for the rich
as a rationalization of other reasons. I don't like the idea of
going off to war, but when I served my time I took that risk. If
I have a choice in a combat situation of going home in a body bag
or going home alive, you can bet I am not going to stand up and
ask the other guy if we can sit down and discuss what we are going
to do, if I did, then it would be body bag time for me. As far as
defending my freedoms goes - friends we wouldn't be sitting here
discussing the things we do if we lived under the shadow of communism.
Now maybe you might think it is better to be alive then dead because
maybe alive you can bring about change.
Maybe some of you out there believe that alive we can change
all the tyrannical goverments out there, maybe you would like to
tell the Hungarians that the last thirty years under communism have
been wonderful, or maybe you would like to convince some soviet
dissidents hwo warm it is in siberia. Or maybe like in the movie
"Red Dawn" you will try to convince yourself when they have crossed
our borders that it is better to be alive. Communism will never
take over the world with nuclear weapons, they will just keep chipping
away a little piece here and little piece there till they are on
our doorsteps.
No I don't like the idea of nuclear war, but nuclear weapons are
the only deterrant that we have to prevent a nuclear war unless
some of the liberals get off there butts and let the space defensive
systems be put in place. If we had this defensive shield in place
than I would vote to strip all nuclear warheads in this country.
I would let our allies decide what defensive posture they would
like to take as far as their weapons go.
How's about we start a topic on this subject since there does seem
to be so much discussion around it and we can let the original topic go
back to its' original intent.
al
I bet the above will really get the flames up!!!!!
|
| 105.33 | Thank you Al... | HERMES::CLOUD | I'm on the inside looking out! | Thu Oct 23 1986 22:50 | 5 |
| Actually, I was thinking more of Red Dawn when I
replied originally.
Phil
|
| 105.35 | Here's the meat of this topic | VAXWRK::NORDLINGER | In a GALAXY far, far away | Fri Oct 24 1986 12:48 | 7 |
| > If I say I am willing to die for something, am I implicitly
> saying that I am also willing to live for it. It seems to me more
> challenging, worthwhile and difficult to decide to dedicate my life
> to something rather than give my life for something.
This is beatiuful. How often will people claim they would die for
some cause but never live for it. Thanks Bob, very nice.
|
| 105.36 | Death might be the easy way out | ATFAB::REDDEN | plan_or_be_planned_for | Fri Oct 24 1986 12:51 | 9 |
| People that study the realities of nuclear war predict that the
primary cause of death will be civil chaos rather than radiation.
Underneath this prediction is the belief, based on surveys, that
many people will choose to "dive on a grenade", die saving others,
rather than face the reduced standard of living that will follow.
Being willing to die for something may sometimes be much easier
than being willing to live for something. For me, what I am willing
to die for has varied as a function of what I had to live for.
|
| 105.37 | You can't have Life without Death | NOVA::BNELSON | The Stars My Destination | Fri Oct 24 1986 19:02 | 39 |
|
Hmm, I'm pretty confused. When you talk about dying for some cause,
I assume you're reffering to fighting for your country ( or something akin
to it ). In that context, it doesn't make any sense to say, "I'd never live
for my country"!!! Also, to say that it's more challenging, worthwhile, or
difficult to live for something than to die for it is nonsense. People who
wish to dedicate their lives to something would never have the chance to do
so without the sacrifice of those who are willing to die to protect those
freedoms. I don't advocate war or the military ( ideally, anyway; in reality,
the military is a necessary evil ). I abhor violence and killing as much ( if
not more! ) than the next person. But if our country was attacked, I'd be one
of the first in line to get into the service. It seems to me that for anything
truly worthwhile, you've got to be ready to make the ultimate sacrifice.
As another example, take space exploration/colonization. I believe
that the only way the human race will survive is for this to happen. Ultimate-
ly, we will run out of land, food, water, or some resource; what then? And
that's if we don't blow each other up long before then! But if we have colonies
out in space, we will be draining less from the Earth, and also if we do have
a global war then some of the colonies would ( hopefully ) survive. To me,
this seems a more than worthwhile thing to die for; to say that I wouldn't also
live for it is ludicrous. Of course I would rather live for it! People would
ALWAYS much rather accomplish their goals without death, but sometimes, through
the actions of others or simple mishaps, that choice isn't available. The bot-
tom line is, I think, that if you care enough about something you've got to be
willing to die for it.
Sorry to ramble, but it seemed to me that people were taking lightly
the sacrifices that others have made for us -- whether it be fighting, as in
WWII, or exploring, as in the Challenger disaster. I don't mean to offend
anyone, so I'm hoping no one will "flame" on this...
Brian
|
| 105.38 | | BIZET::MAHONEY | | Fri Oct 24 1986 20:12 | 17 |
|
This is an interesting question. There is many things I would
be willing to die for. I count my family, friends, country
and church among them. These are also the things I would be
willing to live for and dedicate my life. The hardest question
though that I run up against is either what would I live for
or die for. The hardest for me is what would I kill for. Violence
is something that is abhorrent to me. I really do not what I would
be able to kill for if anything. I think to myself everything I
believe in would not allow me to do this. I also think about
if someone try to kill someone I loved what would I do? Could or
would I kill to protect myself? I do not the answers to these.
What I would live for or die for me is easy. I hope I never
have to find out what I would kill for.
Brian
|
| 105.39 | Why die at all? | GBMMKT::VACCHELLI | Trouble me | Fri Jun 09 1989 17:42 | 19 |
| First I don't believe that death should ever be an issue. It happens
there isn't anything we can do to stop it. So why be afraid? Why
qeustion it? If you have faith then you know you'll be fine in
death if your soul is ready.
Then again I love living and don't know if I'll quite enjoy being
dead in the same way.
I would gladly give my life to save my brother's. I mean my actual
sibling. If there were ever a situation that called for putting
my life on the line to save his, there would be no question. Also
the same goes for my mother.
I would die defending anyone that was being unfairly beaten. I
would defend anybody weaker than the person pursecuting them. I
don't do that for myself because I know that I will survive and
because I have faith but not everyone does and I would like to give
them a reason to have such.
Katrina
|