Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    I wondered that for years 'for I made up my mind it was really over
    and the way I came to that conclusion was by asking myself one question
    over and over and over again... that was "do you really want to
    stay in a relationship where the person you so badly need and love
    does not need and love you as much in return?"...   the answer was
    a few years coming but in the end I decided that the answer was
    indeed no and then I knew it was time to file the good memories
    and leave the bad and go one with a productive life.
    
    I'll always have those bitter-sweet memories... those early days
    that stirred feelings in me I did not know existed.. those times
    when we cried and laughed together.. held our children for the first
    time.. well you know.. that kind of a list goes on and on.. but
    that is just what they are now, precious memories to be kept but
    not dwelled on... 
    
    At some point you decide that what was is no longer... it aint easy
    but there is something to be said for reaching that point and then
    making that your new beginning!
    
    later, gailann
    
    
     

    From my experience, I'm learning to follow my feelings more and I
    think feelings are right. If I can find a quiet place and think
    about things I can look past the hurt that will happen and try to
    decide whether you will grow more with or without. I think this
    has to do with situations more than just with a relationship, by
    the way. I think there will come a time when your feelings will
    become obvious. I know in my case that was true. Then you have to
    find the energy and ability to do what you know is right for you.
    That took me a long time, too.
    
    I think that in all relationships and situations you put energy
    into and you get something out of. When it becomes clear from your
    point of view that you are putting energy into and not getting out of,
    nor does it appear that you will get out of in the future, then
    it's time to move on.
    
    I know that in the last 8 months or so that I have been alone, we
    both have done a lot of growing that I don't think would have
    happened if we had stayed together. 

    Sounds like it has been time for a while now.
    
    You know that - the hard part is doing it.
    
    Think about this....
    
    The longer you hang in there, the more pain you experience,
    dissappointment, etc.  And you may not consciously realize it right
    now, but you are also creating a little file of pain - hate - anger
    that is all due to this person that you can't give up.
    
    It's time.  Move on and forget him.
    
    

    I agree with all - if you're asking the question, it's time.  You'll
    find, as I did, that once you make the conscious decision to let
    go, the whole world will brighten.
    					Steve

    With me, it was when I realized that the relationship -- the one
    with the on-and-off roller coaster, was all that was going to happen.
    I got that this relationship was ok for the other person, it was
    "complete" for her; but of course, it was not complete for me. 
    
    Now I get to have two choices: either I make it complete for me (by
    defining it as complete because that was all that there was going to
    be...) or I go find someone that can make it complete for me.  
    I think that the agony comes when we hope that something we can 
    do will change it all, will make the other one create for us 
    what we need.  
    
    The other person may be capable of being a real pussycat with someone
    else, maybe even the kind of person we want -- with someone else,
    because we're all capable of, and want, a relationship.  I think
    of it as a kind of deal that two people strike up (psychologists
    say we settle it within 3 minutes of meeting), one person says "I'm
    looking for a doormat", the other person says "I'd like to be a
    doormat" -- whacko, you got a relationship.  When one doesn't need
    to have, or be, a doormat, and the other one still has the need,
    you got troubles.  

    Mary-Michael,
    
        I also have to agree with all previous reply's.  I think you've
    made the decision to do it and are possibly hanging on because
    of the uncertainty of the future.  For the first step, forget the
    future and just concentrate on your feelings - they'll tell you
    what you've got to do as we can only make suggestions.  I feel
    you'll find there is now 111 persons in this notes file who will
    support you in what ever your decision is.
    
        As I said, for the very first step, forget the future.  I would
    highly suggest that once you've taken it, start planning your new
    life.  Don't worry about hurting your spouses' feelings, concentrate
    on your own.  If you find you need more help, don't be afraid to
    reach out.
    
        My best wishes to you in your new life.

    "Tomorrow may rain, so - I'll follow the sun"
    
    Lee

    
    You may take this with a grain of salt since all I ever do is 
    bop around conferences making jokes but.......i joke cause
    
    laff at life ..... you'll never get out of it alive
    
    but seriously
    
    letting go is a bi*ch that none of us ever seems to really get a
    really good hold of and no matter what you are it seems to grab
    hold of you in one way or aother

    
    	Three times. That's the number. There's a game that we all learn
    in our youth, where the rule is "Three strikes - you're out". Well,
    there's a reason for that...
    
    	The principle of induction. If something goes the same way in
    three tries, chances are it'll keep going and going and going...that
    same way. Third time? You can say "THATS IT!!"
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    
    I'd like to inject a variation on the theme here.  This same question
    applies to any relationship between people that lasts long enough
    to change.
    
    For example, I've went through this thing where people I thought
    were my friends simply didn't care as much about me as I did about
    them.  I wasn't really bitter about that, but I got very angry with
    myself.  "Why did you let yourself be blinded?" my 'little voice'
    demanded.  And I didn't have a good answer.
    
    I give up on people pretty quickly, in an attempt to cut my losses.
    One can only stand in the fire so long.
    
    Dave W.

    RE: -1
    
        Dave, I can't agree with you more.  While in Arizona, I had
    quite a few "friends", and you know....when I needed a bit of support
    or any other kind of help, those "friends" were nowhere to be found,
    but when they needed support, help or whatever....I usually found
    time to help them out.   
    
       Pay backs are hell....
    				
    						Phil
    

RE: .*

I disagree that the longer you hang in there the more you will hate...

At least, it's not that way with me.  With me, it was spending the extra time
that allowed both of us to come to the concious realization of what the course
of action should be, rather then leaving in a hurry and leaving all kinds of
emotional loose ends.

For me the end came when I realized that no matter how many times I forgave, I
would keep being disappointed...  I could forget about the past mistakes, and I
could forgive.  It was *that* future that I could not stay with.

Jim. 

Jim. 

>  When do you give up on someone?  What is the breaking point
>  when you throw your hands up and say, "I've had it!"

This is always a difficult decision, because there are no 'good'
options. There is only a bad one and a slightly not so bad one -
and the 'slightly' is often very slight, indeed.

So, at least for me, there is a method: I calculate the Return
On Investment.

It's important to do it right; otherwise, it doesn't work.

Choose some free time when you'e alone. Sit down and carefully
de-emotionalize the situation. Tabulate in your mind (some people
prefer pencil and paper or a terminal - I find this a bit silly)
what is in the situation for you. Count all the blessings, all
the benefits.

Then, in a seperate mental column, tabulate the investment
required to attain those benefits. Put in everything. The time,
the work, the pain, the sorrow, even the money (if applicable).

Now, treat this like a business decision and evaluate the ROI. In
other words: determine if it's worth it. Sometimes, this is the
most difficult part. Sometimes, the answer comes out automatically.

Then of course, like any cold, hard, business decision, it needs
to be implemeted. This may be hard, or painful, or distasteful. But
it's the right thing to do; you know that by now.

Sounds trivial, doesn't it?

-- Ron

    Ah yes, the weight of the bird, I've had that one.  After doing
    the balance sheet, it came out that I was going to lose, sure 'nuff.
    But the bird was mighty fine...so I took the loss and exited laughing.
    Sometimes its just gotta be that way.
    
    One thing that kind of surprised me in the singles game, was that
    as much as I needed a relationship, as fine as the other person
    was, as *almost* right as we both fit together, if the balance sheet
    didn't come out black, the only thing to do was take a hike.
    
    Except in the case of a fine bird...

    RE: .14

>    over-engineering perhaps?
    
>    But if
>    you find yourself just putting *her* picture in the pro's column
>    it often out-weigh's even a long list of con's ...
    
... In which case, I assume, you'd be willing to invest a lot more
into the transaction? The balance sheet approach will still be valid.

All I was saying, though, is that very often, de-emotionalization
works wonders in these circumstances.

-- Ron

    
    
        RE:10   LEST WE FORGET HOW TRUE!!!HOW TRUE!!!

Hi.  I'm new to this conference and still working my way through all the
replies (only 1400 left to go!), but felt compelled to reply to this one.
Pardon me for being 2 months late.

Someone was saying that you should try to detach yourself from your
situation and make a list of the "pros" and "cons" of the relationship.
I have a couple problems with this idea.  First, when you're really steeped
in a deep emotional problem, it's nearly impossible (certainly for me) to
*really* step back to an objective viewpoint.  Anger or despair are always
there in the back, affecting your judgement.  The result is that your
"con" side may be artificially large compared to the "pro" side, and some
of the "con" items may really be only impressions of the situation, and
might not even be correct.  In other words, you may paint a bleaker scene
than it really should be, just because you *feel* bleak inside.

Second, you are only taking a "snapshot" of your relationship.  If your
relationship is similar to some of mine, it changes, getting better and
worse.  You are only going to be seriously questioning the relationship
during the bad times, so inherently you will have a skewed perspective.
Things don't always get better, but they CAN, and seemingly without
warning.  Then you are glad you didn't bail out.

Third, I've noticed a tendency in this file that I personally find
disquieting.  That is that many of the contributors here have been divorced
one or more times, and they are wont to not only discuss divorce as an
acceptable option, but do in fact seem to *encourage* it in others who
are having bad times with their marriages.  It's the, "you don't have to
take that crap, Joe, you're better than that" attitude that I feel (in my
admittedly limited perspective) is a major factor in the astronomical
divorce rates today.  There seem to be only a few happily married types
to campaign for patience and diligence.  I'm not saying that everyone can
make it work, but what if *you* could?  Wouldn't that be good?  What if
it took FIVE YEARS of hell first?  When you got through it would you say
it was worth it?  You very well might.  What if it took ten years?  There's
just no way to tell when you should give it up.

I fully expect to have my head bitten off for that last paragraph.  I don't
mean to imply that divorce is unacceptable by any means; I just feel that
the pro-divorce side is a bit overrepresented here, and people asking for
advice might be influenced by the slant of the replies.  Tell me if you
don't think that's true.

Carl (hoping not to make enemies his first time out but speaking his mind
      anyway)

P.S.  I might not get around to defending myself for a while, with reading
      all these other notes and all, but I'll try and check now and then.

    
    
    Well, this story is all too familiar.  For a long time I had liked
    someone that I graduated with and he never returned the feelings
    to me.  A few months after graduation, we started seeing more of
    each other and I grew to like him even more.  
    
    I can't recall how many times I called him to make plans and he
    would either say he was busy or he would agree to go and then at
    last minute change his mind.....too many times!!  Still, I would
    not give up on him because he started giving me signs that he liked
    me too.  For instance, he left flowers and packages on my car and
    started calling me more often.
    
    When this had gone on for a few months, I decided it was time to
    tell him exactly how I felt to see what kind of a response i would
    get from and I didn't get anything except a:  'I'm not ready for
    a relationship'.
    
    To make this long story short, I finally decided that he was missing
    out on something real good and that I couldn't sit around mourning
    over him and waste my time wondering what it could be like....then
    my Jamie came along.  We have been together for 2 months now (not
    a very long time) but I am very happy!  I still see the other 'him'
    once in a while but he doesn't make my heart do jumps anymore. 
    I want him to live the feelings of liking someone and not getting
    anything in return.....
    
    Tracy
    
    

    
    
    
    RE: TRACY
    
    
    	Boy oh boy, do *I* know where you're coming from!!
    	I've been in a few situations where I've really cared
    	for someone and the feelings weren't returned...
    	or when they were it was to benefit HIM!  One guy 
    	in particular comes to mind.
    
    	I was head over heels in love (or so I thought) with
    	a guy for three whole years (started when I was 14 all
    	the way through to about age 17 I think) and every time 
    	I thought he was returning feelings, they weren't genuine, he just
    	needed to make some other girl jealous, or to try and
   	use me for his own gratification!  He didn't care about me..
    
    	Well, finally, after many nights of crying and confusion,
    	and not trusting men at all, I opened my eyes and saw this 
    	jerk for what he IS, notice I say IS, not was!  It took quite 
    	a long time, but when I finally did and told him off once and 
    	for all, his mouth dropped to the floor and that look was all 
    	the satisfaction I needed to know that *I* had finally WON!

    
    	Now I'm happily hooked with my guy and have been for an
    	entire year and a half!!  And the other guy is STILL 
    	using girls and not getting anywhere.
    
    	/Kim
    

    Hello fellow Human_Relations Noters... I'm writing in this note today
    because it is October.  What makes October relevant to this particular
    note?  Well if you will look back to the replies to this note in 86.1
    you will find a note written by Gailann Kimbrough.. that was me then, I
    am Gailann Keville-Evans now.  

    In October 'all those years ago' I replied to this note.  As a result
    of that reply Richard Keville-Evans from DECpark in the UK wrote to me..
    this started a correspondence that lasted from October to late
    December when I flew to the UK to meet this mysterious man.  The
    following March I returned to the UK and 1 month later Richard and I
    were married here in the UK.  I've been here ever since!

    Three years this month I've known Richard.. our third wedding anniversary
    will be this coming April.  We have had our good and bad like all
    couples, most of it good I'm happy to say.  1 house, 2 cars and 2 kids
    later I'm pleased to say all is well!

    Thanks Human_Relations!!

    Gailann (Kimbrough) Keville-Evans

    
    
      Thats Great !   I Love it
    
       JOhn C.
    

    I'm really glad to see things worked out so well for Gailann.  My
    question is, what about when you know enough is enough and you still
    can't let go?
    
    I've been involved with this man for a little less than a year.  In the
    beginning of our relationship he was great.  Now he's turned into an
    unbearable monster.  He gets drunk alot and though he denies it I
    suspect he's into drugs.  He yells at me and puts me down all the time. 
    He's always calling me terrible names.  And this past weekend for the
    first time he threw me around the house.  He gets in fights alot when
    he goes out.
    
    I've tried breaking up with him many times.  I've changed my phone
    number but he managed to get it anyway.  He wants to be with me all the
    time, but I hate our time together and try to get out of it.  He says I
    can't break up with him, and he's threatened to hurt me when I try. 
    The scariest thing is there is something inside me that can't totally
    let go of him.  I mean I know I could get a restraining order on him
    and try changing my number again, but theres something I'm afraid of
    and I'm not sure what it is.  
    
    Am I totally crazy?  Does anyone have any ideas that might help?
    
    Mary

    Re .24  GET THE RESTRAINING ORDER NOW !!!!!

    The restraining order won't do you good if you don't "restrain"
    yourself.  You've got to get clear.  
    
    As strange to others as it may seem, letting go of a person who
    is obviously abusive isn't that easy--but based on what you said,
    you NEED to do it.  Make yourself take that step.  If you leave
    and change your number, don't give it out to anyone who would give
    it out to this man if you expect him not to be able to get ahold
    of you.  Same for your address--surround yourself with supportive
    friends, especially since this man has threatened to harm you. 
    
    I am sure others in this notesfile can help you find a support group
    for people in your situation (women being threatened by ex's of
    whatever kind).  Find out what you can do--don't be afraid to protect
    yourself.  He could be blowing smoke, or he could be serious.  You
    really, no matter how much you care for him, don't want to take
    that chance, do you?  Your caring for him will not help you if he
    hurts you--be it physically or emotionally.  He needs help, and
    as much you as might want to help him, he has to help himself *first*.
    
    I cannot emphasize that enough.  You CANNOT help someone unless
    they help themselves, and certainly not a person who is threatening
    you, who has a substance abuse problem, and who frightens you. 
    My mother married an alcoholic, stuck by him through thick and thin,
    and altho he was NOT physically abusive, much of what you said rings
    a bell.  He only got better when he helped himself--not because
    my mother did anything for him, not because she "made" him seek
    help, not because she stuck by him, but because HE went and got
    help.  My mom was lucky he was not and is not abusive, but this
    threat factor is something that should be screaming "WATCH OUT"
    to you.                            
    
    Protect yourself FIRST.  If you put yourself last, it won't make
    any difference anyway.  (sorry for the bluntess).
    
    Good luck to you--
    
    kim

    The numbers I've seen reported in =wn= is that every month in Mass
    22 women are killed by their husband or boyfriend. If you don't want
    to be a statistic you'd better get out now. This happens in all the
    states, all the time. liesl

    
    Re:Note 86.27
    
    >> ..every month in Mass. 22 women are killed by their husband or boyfriend
    
    Liesl, I think the numbers you are quoting are "reversed" or the
    reporter of the newspaper article used the wrong data.
    
    I believe the numbers from the State Police files indicated that:
    
    "In EVERY 22 DAYS...a woman is killed by her husband/male-friend in the
    State of Mass." ( New England, US). 
    
    FaZari.(I stand corrected in case...)

    That sounds more reasonable.  According to the popular press, there
    were 100 murders in Boston last year in total, which works out at
    one every 3.65 days.  So, even if all those were women being murdered
    by spouses...
    
    					Nigel
    
    ps:  Having said that, I'm still appalled at the "one woman every 22
    days" statistic.  

re.24
I am amazed!
re.25 I second the motion.

You really need to break out and fast. Move if you can't resist being punished
but to stay in the situation you describe defies my ability to understand.

I had a friend who's boyfriend treats her like trash beats her up a few
times a week and mentaly abuses her daily. I finally had to tell her to
leave me out because started to want to throttle her myself. She woulden't
seek help or leave she only would cry and complain about how bad it was as
cold as it sounds I coulden't feel sorry for her anymore.
YCYOD,-j 

    Those definately are scary statistics.  He called me up twice last
    night, very drunk.  I told him not to ever call me or come over again
    or I would put a restraining order on him right away.  I doubt he'll
    give up right away but I'm taking steps in the right direction, I'm
    really trying, and I feel good about that.
    
    Re: .30
    
    I know what you mean when you say this situation defies your ability to
    understand.  I could never see why someone would take abuse like this
    before it was me in the situation.  I had a girlfriend in a similar
    situation and I would think, "She's not a stupid person so she must
    somehow like being treated like that".  That's not the way it is
    though.  I'll try to briefly explain how this happened to me.  My
    divorce was just final and I had just found myself out of work.  I was
    scared and I needed someone and when I met him he seemed like the
    answer to my prayers, to good to be true - which he was.  He was
    wonderful to me, paid alot of attention to me and wanted to be with me
    all the time.  He was great for months until little things that he
    started saying felt insulting.  But people had always told me I was
    oversensitive so I thought it was me.  By the time he reached his full
    potential in meanness I was so emotionally involved I couldn't
    immediately walk away.  And then he would also manipulate me by saying
    that he loved me so much and I shouldn't have gotten him so mad.  I saw
    the manipulation for what it was yet still I felt powerless.  I don't
    feel powerless anymore, I feel like I'm getting stronger and stronger
    and I know I don't want this relationship anymore.  He's not going to
    make it easy for me to end this, but I'm going to do it.
    
    Thanks for listening to me - Mary

It sounds like you are taking the right steps tough as they are.

Best of luck, Jerry

<    
<    I believe the numbers from the State Police files indicated that:
<    
<    "In EVERY 22 DAYS...a woman is killed by her husband/male-friend in the
<    State of Mass." ( New England, US). 
<    
<    FaZari.(I stand corrected in case...)

    Opps, you're right. I got it twisted. But as Nigel said , it's still
    awful.

    To .0 the more you talk about this the more dangerous it sounds. If
    he's telling you it's your fault for making him mad you've hit a
    real danger zone. liesl

    Hi again.  Good news, I haven't heard from him in two days now.  I
    warned him that if he makes contact with me again I will get a
    restraining order.  I'm hoping he'll just let it go and leave me alone
    but I doubt it.  Having some distance from him really helps.  I'm
    starting to feel like my old self again, happy.
    
    I'd really like to thank all the people who sent me notes with their
    own experiences.  Their advise on what to do to end this situation is
    helping alot.  I never realized before how many psychotic people there
    are around.
    
    Every 22 days, thats unbelieveable!  I think I'll just stay in the
    house with my doors locked from now on.  Only kidding.
    
    Thanks again everybody - Mary

    I'm very happy for you, and relieved.
    
    Jim
    
    (I had to resist making ugly remarks earlier, but though I didn't say
    anything, I was worried.  I'm glad I restrained myself, and that things
    are working out for you)