Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I have met several people through Notes and electronic mail that
    I later met in person.  I have found that there are 2 types.
    
    1)	People who are more interesting in person, than they are from 
    the other side of a CRT.
    
    2)	Others, seem to be very interesting, personable people through
    Notes and Mail, but seem very quiet and make for somewhat boring
    company in person.
    
    I don't regret meeting anyone I've met in this way.  People who
    are of the first type make very pleasant company, since you knew
    some things you had in common with them beforehand, then it gets
    better from there.
    
    The second type, well, you just continue to communicate with them
    over the net.  I assume that these people are really just shy around
    people, and electronic media makes the people you are communicating
    with a little less human, therefore, less threatening.
    
    Kathleen
                                                               

    I have met *A LOT* of people via NOTES and since I've always tried
    to keep my 'images' of what these terminal folks look like, I can't
    say that I've been bowled over (good or bad) by anyone I've met.
    I'm sure that I've shocked the heck out of a lot of people, but
    that's okay.  If the people I've met through the enet are so stuck
    on what a person looks like and can't get past and remember what
    the personality underneath those appearances are, then they really
    don't want to be friends too badly.  Cause friendship comes from
    the heart, not from the outward appearances.
    
    					*** Kristy ***

    If you are interested in putting faces to the names, consider following
    the notefile MTV::NETPARTY.  This file is for announcing noters'
    gatherings  (parties, dinners, etc.) -- anything open to any and
    all noters who can make it.
    
                                                Kathy
    

    Who gives a sh*t what anybody looks like..
    Or notes like..
    If you like them either way...
    
    Then like them either way.....
    

    right arm, Kerry, right arm.

    I met someone via infamous j-o-d ....
    
    Now we're getting married!
    
    thank you KO
    -dc

    
    I figured out a while back that noting was like any other social
    event like bowling, belonging to a softball team, bingo etc... we
    all share a common interest, we like to note!  .. and it stands
    to reason that we will have our likes and dislikes of one another,
    that we will agree or disagree from time to time, and that we will
    sometimes endear ourselves and sometimes infuriate...  it is part
    of recreating in a group, that is all!!..
                                           
    later, ga
    

    I've met a number of people in person that I knew earlier from
    Notes, or even Usenet. Some appearances surprised me, but I've
    gotten used to that, so the surprises are not surprising (I hope
    you follow me on that...)
    
    This isn't new to me, however. In science fiction fandom, there
    are "things" called APAs (stands for Amateur Press Association),
    which is easiest to describe as "Notes in print", though that doesn't
    really cover all aspects of it. In APAs, as in Notes, one can get
    to know people from all over the country or the world, and often
    meet them in person later.
    
    --- jerry

    I have met a lot of wonderful people, formed some very close
    friendships, and found lovers among people I first met thru Noting.
    I have also LEARNED so much from the Noting community.
    
    Noters matched the close community I had always heard existed in
    the early days of DEC. I knew I could ask stupid technical questions
    from someone I only knew electronically, but who I knew would know
    the answer or where to find it.
    
    When I started physically meeting other noters, I don't remember
    being surprised at how anybody looked. It was just so great to finally
    meet these people.

    Again, I may have been in a slightly unique position, since I made
    my noting debut in the Original SOAPBOX and then was very active
    in SEXCETERA. It has been a more or less frequent occurrence for
    people to seek me out and introduce themselves. Persona walks up
    to my desk and says "I'm so-and-so. I read your stuff". I've even
    had people see my name badge at SF conventions and say, "You're
    *that* Tamzen".

    Tamzen

    I would like to comment on this but I think it would be best if
    you wrote to me via VAXmail at he above node.  If not, I'll try
    replying later.
    
    cathy

    Unfortunately, I've never met anyone from any of the notes files,
    but I'd like to.  I think it would be great to find out that there
    are some cool people here in Stow.
    
    Ginny
    

    About 10 years ago, in college, I was a user on the Plato IV network.
    NOTES is actually patterned after a utility from Plato, since Len
    Kawell (author of original internal NOTES utility) used to work
    for Plato.  The method of electronic conversation tended to be
    a program called "TALK-O-MATIC", which resembles PHONE except that
    anyone could join a conversation.
    
    Apparently the big thrill was for some 15-year old male to pretend
    he was a girl (rare on the system) and flirt with unsuspecting
    victims.  I did in fact make a "pilgrimage" out to Champaign, IL,
    where Plato was based, to meet many of the people I had conversed
    with over the years.
    
    More recently, commercial networks such as The Source and COMPUSERVE
    have instituted similar programs, and there are even documented cases 
    of couples meeting electronically and later getting married!  The
    problem of impostors still exists.
    
    In any event, I've lost count of the number of DEC people I've met
    whose first words were "I know you through NOTES".
    
    					Steve

Noting has resulted in several face-to-face gatherings of noters for me.
FLYING.NOTE has held several "fly-ins", and friends/flirts has initiated
several parties.  It's a great way to socialize with people outside of
one's local group.  I'm aware of (but have not attended) a couple other
notes files that have sponsored parties, and I'm sure there are more
than that.

It has also happened that someone who I came to deal with in the course
of business turned out to be known to me from notes -- always a pleasant
surprise and, I believe, a real business benefit in enhanced communication.

As someone who has a hard time remembering names, I find it a great
benefit to already have a set of associations about someone from notes
when I first meet them face-to-face.

	Well, last night it happened.  I have finally met some noters.
    There was a surprise going away party for Gina (UOB) at the Sheraton-
    Boxborough Inn and I went.  It was great!  I couldn't believe it!  I
    had to go up to each person there and talk to them to see if they were
    really noters and to my surprise - they were!  These people actually
    exist!  They're not just random AI programs, there are actually HUMANS
    at the other end of these thought waves!

	Let's see if I can remember who I met (this should be a real challenge
    because I ended up having to meet everybody twice to even have a shot in
    the dark of understanding their names - the music was so LOUD)...

	Bob Barber
	Tom Blinn (sp?) (The Doctor)
	Gina Bluidnikas (her surprise going-away party)
	Bill Buckley
	Jill Corwin
	Marge Davis (Grins)
	Sue Gleeson
	Cary Faulkner
	REK
	GailAnn Kimbrough
	Bob McClure & wife
	Bill Meier
	Joe Moser & wife
	Becky Rogers
	Mr. Rose
	Mrs. Topaz
	John Yiada (sp?)

	and then the people I met after the band started playing LOUDLY:

	Kristy
	Seth
	Steve (Eagle)

	...as well as a couple of people who got there later whose names I
    didn't get.  Funny how I ended up not getting some of the full names of
    people I talked to the most.  I guess I got introduced to other people
    through them but was too embarrased to re-ask them their name (for the
    six time).  I know I'm way off on the spellings of some of these names
    here, such as John's, and I'm totally guessing on the Doctor, but I may
    update this note later with the correct names once I get out of this
    note and back into the system.

	The music was quite the barrier: it was funny to see all of these
    incredible conversationalists get together and then not be able to
    talk because of the loud music.  It was probably a good exercise in
    intra-personal communication, since we all had to practically use sign
    language to communicate (or maybe I'm just going deaf?).
    
	I'd say it was a pretty decent turn-out, considering this party
    was purposely unannounced to surprise Gina.  I got there a little late,
    but apparently (from the sign-language I could understand), someone
    (was it Jill?) had taken Gina out to dinner there at the Sheraton,
    and meanwhile everyone else assembled the party in the lounge complete
    with two giant reserved tables and two big cakes.

	There was even a food caterer with munchies (my favorite part); had
    I known, I would've skipped dinner and been there on time!  Quite the
    event!  A (LOUD) band, and plenty of dancing (should've dragged the wife
    along after all instead of letting her lay around and be a couch-potato).

	Oh well, I'm psyched for the next noter party now!  I hope I can
    make it (whenever and whereever it is).  See you there!  In the meantime,
    I'll be only a note away!

							-DAV0

    RE -.1, I can't agree more. Loud music is quite a buzz killer! I
    suggest some nice backround music for noters parties, something
    that condones conversation. I don't mean Muzak either, something like
    Vivaldi's 'the 4 Seasons', or Bach's duet for Cello & Harpsichord.
    
    -Lucifer 

	I dunno, I guess it has something to do with the fact that nobody
    asked me to dance.

							-DAV0

    Well Dave...
    
    Did YOU ask anybody else to dance????
    
    :)
    
    

Hi DAV0,

Well, I'm finally getting around to my self-defense after an aborted attempt
earlier this week.

It was Kerry (RUBY::) Faulkner who took Gina to dinner, not me.  I was just one
of the "cast of thousands".

I agree, the band was way too loud to talk over.

As for the basenote,  I have also met many people in person who I originally
"met" via notes and VAXmail; some at noters parties, and some in one-on-one
situations.  I have been surprised by some people, but not disappointed.
Some people were very different personality-wise than they appeared to be
over the network.

I am also dating (dating?  I just moved in with him :-)) someone who I met
indirectly through notes.  It's nice to have someone who can understand the
"need" to dial up from home for non-work purposes, when I get the chance to do
so!

Jill (with the yet-to-be-unpacked boxes but with her terminal and modem set up
right next to Bill's :-))

    An observation from years of experience - don't be fooled into
    thinking that ANY amount of "remote relationship", be it by
    MAIL, phone, or other media, can compensate for even the least
    amount of actual being together.  I have frequently seen the
    tendency to drop all inhibitions during a remote relationship
    and to believe that one is much "closer" to the partner than one
    really is.
    
    Remote relationships are great for opening the door, and for
    establishing the groundwork for what can be a great in-person 
    relationship, but don't count on ANYTHING until you've met in 
    person and agree on what you're doing.  If you go "full speed 
    ahead" and build up your expectations, you're headed for
    disappointment.

    						Steve

re: slowing down,

	What brought this on?  Who is going too fast here anyway, or was this
    sudden warning just off the top of your head?

							-davo

    Re .25:
        It's been something I meant to put in for quite a while, but
    I forgot about it until yesterday.  I'm not trying to refer to anyone
    in particular.  Sorry for the confusion.
    					Steve

re: "heading for disappointment",

	Although it's hard to criticize what I'm sure you meant to be purely
    realistic advice, I can't help but wonder about all of the people who have
    met (and in some cases married) via network relationships.

	If in fact the personna is so important that no opinions or feelings
    should be made before meeting in person, then I would wonder how a blind
    person would ever be able to justify marriage to anyone they couldn't see.

	Ok, I guess you never said they had to "see" each other, just that they
    should "be with" each other first.  This is pretty obvious really, aside
    from a few isolated cases of people actually getting married over the net
    before ever seeing (being with) each other, I think that it would be hard
    not to "be with" each other at some point in the relationship.

	The question that comes to my mind is this: What importance does a
    network relationship play in the minds of the parties involved?  Now, before
    hitting the REPLY/NOEXTRACT command, let me elaborate briefly...if, in fact,
    our minds are so emotionally moved by the written words of others that we
    were to fall "in-love" (or even "in-like") with someone purely on the basis 
    of their communicative skills, then what does this say about the resulting
    relationship?

	How would this relationship suffer more from the sorts unforseen prob-
    lems that couples face on a day-to-day basis than, say, a couple who ran
    into each other at a party, bar, or at a supermarket, etc., and with little 
    or nothing in common, decided to start dating (and eventually got married or
    whatever) simply because they felt "attracted" to each other?  This would be
    your typical couple of the pre-network marriage variety.

	Having reread my question, I realize that I may be spawning off on the
    order of 2 to the tenth power different topics here, so I will try to sum
    up my question to the following: "Does any of this (noting in general) mean
    anything to anybody?  If so, then should we limit our networked emotions
    (and resulting relationships) to a particular part of our psyche, and not
    let them interfere with our perceptions of what we like to think of as
    "reality"?

								-davo

    p.s.  Pick your question - I think I've asked enough for one reply.

    Re .27:
        Davo, I don't think you got exactly the point I was trying to
    make.  I do believe that one can fall in love over the phone, etc.
    My point was that a remote relationship doesn't always translate
    into the same closeness when you are together in person.  It might,
    if both of you are being honest and are comfortable with what you
    have said so far, but this doesn't always happen.
        My primary case in point is my earlier reply about the
    teenage boys who liked to "seduce" people over the net.  If the
    innocent victim got really worked up over what he thought was a
    real relationship, only to find that it was a fraud, it could
    be very painful.  Similar things can happen between two people who
    are quite sincere, but it sometimes happens that one will say things
    and commit to things on the phone that one would be uncomfortable
    with in person.
         That's why I suggested going slow - sometimes you're lucky
    and everything turns out fine, but other times...  Best to save
    the REAL closeness for when you are together (at least for the
    first time).
    					Steve

	I guess I was picking up on the wrong implication, sorry.  I can see
    what you mean about the pranksters; something to watch-out for.

	What this conversation did for me though, was to bring-up some other
    related issues concerning network relationships: First of all, is there
    such a thing as a network romance which is born within and lives ONLY
    within the electronically facilitated fantasies of the parties involved?

	I think any noter can say that they have made new aquaintances through
    the network (just as pen-pals carry on friendships from afar while sometimes
    never getting a chance to meet each other), but how many readers will admit
    to sparking a certain romantic chord with someone else over the net when
    they would never even think of discussing the possibility in person (or
    in reality) due to a pre-existing lover/marriage partner or whatever.

	When do such fantasies become a reality?  Would meeting the person not
    only force the reality of the issue, but destroy the fantasy?

								-davo

    Re .29:
       Pranksters aren't the only problem - as I said, both people can
    appear sincere, but the great build-up you create over the net may
    fizzle in person - I'm just warning about this possibility, and
    suggesting that people take it easy on the excitement level.
    
       As for the electronic fantasy - I am certain that this happens
    all the time.  There are many stories of similar things happening
    with telephone operators, etc.
    					Steve

    		-< TELEPHONE YES, NOTES NO>-
    
    I'm just getting started with notes so I haven't gotten a chance
    to get to know anybody through notes, but I use to work third shift
    and had to make phone calls to people in the middle of the night
    if there was a problem with their job I was trying to run(I'm a
    computer operator), when I started working on days and started
    to meet these people alot of them surprised me as far as what they
    looked like but most of them turned out to be as good or better
    personality wise as far as I expected them to be.
    
    re .31  I'm basically a shy person so I think that notes files are
    	    a good forum for those of us who are shy to share our thoughts
    	    with other people.  There are some people that I know
    	    personally  that I often say things to via mail that I might
    	    not be able to in person.

re: .31,

	I prefer to let my fantasies run free in the notesfiles while at
    the same time carefully insulating myself, as well as others, from my
    fantasies.  In other words, I don't push my fantasies on anyone (and
    rarely do I even share them), but they are there for the taking by anyone
    else who can both realize them and want to live them out.

	By this token, I would probably thoroughly enjoy that AI program
    you mentioned which emulates the horny female, because it might serve to
    build upon a particularly dorment (network) fantasy of mine.

	On the other hand, there are times when you need to reach out for
    a helping hand from reality, and it is important that this need is recog-
    nized and administered to as well.  That's where an AI program would typ-
    ically fall short of one's expectations (unless it was a damn good program).

	The problem, as I see it, is to draw the line between fantasy and real-
    ity in one's dealings with other people on the network.  How does one know,
    for example, when one person's fantasy becomes another person's reality?
    Or, even more confusing, how about when one person's fantasy becomes their
    own reality without realizing it?

								-davo

    Most of the people I have met after reading their notes have
    been duller and quieter than I expected.  This wimp is the
    fanatic flamer X?  This mouse the acerbic wit Y?  This....
    well, you get the idea.
    
    I suspect notes, as a medium, lead people to be more aggressive
    than face-to-face conversations.  This might be because they do
    not get quick feedback on their words (no shocked looks).  It
    might be because they don't write until they feel strongly, so
    only strong feelings are in notes (not the case with me).  It
    might be that even the meekest person can write a note without
    interruption.
    
    			-John Bishop

    Re .34:
        Just wait till people meet you, John!
    				Steve

    RE:.34
    
	Yes, I tend to agree.

    Then again, I'm perfect.

    Re: .35
    
    You mean, wait until they find out what a meek, quiet person I am?
    Might be a long wait!
    
    			-John Bishop

	Anyone care to discuss network fantasies here, or should I start a
    new note for this one?

							-davo

    p.s.  I don't think there's a law/rule against fantasies (yet at least).

    Start a new note, Davo.
    		Steve

...without further ado...

	Ok, you wanted a new topic, you got it!  Check note #58 (Well, Burst
    My Bubble!!!).  I suppose that would mean that this note is going to be
    temporarily closed for business (at least until network fantasies are
    discussed), so I suggest writing this note number down for future reference.

								-davo

    I have had the pleasure now of meeting two noters.  The first thru
    the sailing note conference, and this last Friday evening I met
    a woman whom I've gotten to know thru this conference and VAXmail.
    
    I was not in the least bit dismayed upon meeting her and I feel
    we had a very pleasant evening as dinner lasted over 4 hours.
    We had communicated via VAXmail for about a week and by Friday,
    all apprehension had left (was nervous at first) and my attitude
    had been set for meeting a friend.  I did not make any image or
    set any expectations.
    
    If I had to do it again - nothing would be changed.  It's just
    reaffirmed my idea that friends are friends, no mater what they
    look like.
    
    Speaking of noting friends and meeting,  I realize my boat is not
    big enough to hold a HUM_REL get together but if any of you are
    passing thru Portsmouth, or want to take a ride up/down here, you'll
    always find a welcome mat on the docks.  Who knows - maybe the
    sun will be right for sailing.  Actually it never rains here - we
    just have wet sunshine every now and then.

    
"Tomorrow never rains, - We just follow the sun"

    Lee

Hello... my first note here (catching up on this file is TOUGH...).

Re: .34 - The reason computers "work" in some psychoanalysis areas where human 
interaction doesn't is the fear of rejection we all have. The worst rejection I
can expect from my terminal while I'm typing is: 

	"System going down in 1 minute, pound sand"

So, it is much easier to say things you would have trouble verbalizing to a 
single person, and, if you got all the people reading a notesfile together, 
would find IMPOSSIBLE to say. If I'm a sheep, I can be a lion in print.

The other aspect is the rubout key. Ever wish you could take back those <boy 
was that stupid wish I hadn't said 'em> words? NOW YOU CAN! I have time to 
ponder what other's have written without simultaneously having to compose an 
answer. Ever bid somebody good-by with (for example) "Hope your car repair
appointment goes well!" and get "You too"? 

Re: <others> I've met several people that I'd "grown to know" - mostly via 
MAIL. The interesting thing about NOTES is its diversity. You can infer things 
about people by the variety of files that they're seen in -- in addition to the 
things they have to say. Many times I've wanted to send somebody a message just 
to say "Hey! I think you're neat". It's too bad that sometime after we turn two 
digits of age we loose that ability to say "Hey! I think you're neat. Wanna be 
friends?" I digress.

Just ten more notes... then some more work. No.... 12.

-scott