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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

25.0. "Divorce -- The Other Side of Marriage." by ZEPPO::MAHLER (Michael) Tue Jul 22 1986 18:53


    I know this is a painful subject to discuss, but I am curious
    about the feelings that run through people's heads when they
    decide to file for a divorce.  WOuld anyone who has been
    through this care to talk about it ?

		    Regards,

		    Michael

T.RTitleUserPersonal
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25.1so much more, i'll take time to writeVORTEX::JOVANthe Music kiss....Tue Jul 22 1986 19:056
    total confusion...  happy/sad....
    
    is this real?
    
    what i am doing?             can it ever be different.......?
    
25.2No fun at allQUARK::LIONELSteve LionelTue Jul 22 1986 19:1022
    My experience is that by the time you are prepared to file for
    a divorce, all the horrible feelings have been running through
    your head for a long time already.  The act of filing is the start
    of a decision to release yourself from the torture that made you
    consider it in the first place.  You may actually feel relieved
    when you do file, or you may get more depressed (or both!), it
    all depends on your situation.
    
    I'll also point out that the filing is the simplest part of the
    procedure.  What's REALLY "fun" is figuring out "division of
    property", custody of children, and writing it all down in a form
    that a judge will accept.  It is rarely a simple task.  A good
    and sympathetic lawyer is a real help.  Don't even START to consider
    an agreement without consulting a lawyer.  The worst thing to do
    is to give away all your rights simply because you didn't think
    of the consequences or didn't want to spend the effort.
    
    Reading a good book on the subject can help.  I read one which is
    called (I think) "Consultation with a Divorce Lawyer" - it explains
    the procedure and can clear up a lot of misconceptions people have
    about divorce.
    					Steve
25.3divorce HURTSHARPO::B_HENRYBill HenryTue Jul 22 1986 20:0523
   That is an interesting question. I have an appointment to see my
lawyer on Friday to start the process of filing. We have, at least at
this time an agreement. I talked with the lawyer before we worked
out all the details. 
   The decision to get a divorce was an extremly difficult one. The decision
was one that took a long time. The first emotion I can put a label on was
confusion. Why me, what have I done to deserve this? Then quickly followed
guilt, followed very quickly by panic. Depression set in. It have never
occured to me that I would become part of one of the fastest growing
(probobly second only to the national debt) statistis in this country.
The thoughts that ran through my mind were crazy. I wanted to see our
marraige work. I kept believing that one day I might wake up and 
everything would be alright again. I am very fortunate that I have some
friends that have given support through all this. One particular person
refused to take sides, he just kept after me to get me to sort out 
reality from crazy thoughts and emotions. It worked. It took a better
part of a year to realize that there was nothing that could save our 
relationship, and what was once there is now gone.
   

Bill


25.4You have entered another dimension...QUARK::LIONELSteve LionelTue Jul 22 1986 21:0715
    I can echo Bill's sentiments in .3 exactly.  My state of mind
    leading up to the divorce has been like I'm starring as the victim
    in a "Twilight Zone" episode.  In my case, the breakup of my
    marriage surprised me - I had not seen it coming - part of the
    problem itself.  It's nearly a year later and I'm still spinning.
    
    I've delayed drawing up the agreements, partly out of laziness,
    mostly from not wanting to confront the subject.  However, it's
    been long enough and I've started it moving again.  I wonder if
    I'll feel any different when the divorce is final?
    
    I feel jaded - will I ever be able to love again?  Or will fear
    of repeating my failure haunt me?  This isn't happening....
    
    
25.5I do/ I don't?PAUPER::KIMBROUGHgailann, maynard, ma...Tue Jul 22 1986 23:5812
    
    I think the hardest part of ending my marriage was coming to terms
    with the finality of it all.. it was like reading a good book through
    not being allowed to read the final pages... I still wonder what
    those pages might have held if only things could have worked out
    differently..
    
    I have been alone now for five years.. and still have not really
    accepted that I was once married and am no longer..  somehow it
    just does not seem like it should be that easy.
    
    later, gailann
25.6It hurts!HEADS::OSBORNSally's VAXNotes Vanity PlateWed Jul 23 1986 00:2226
Yes, it did.  It was simple to start and enviously amicable for a
while, but the division of parts became annoying, petty, painful,
difficult, and revengeful (as was the division of labor during
the marriage).  It was not quick or easy (almost three years from
"move out" date until "final freedom" date).  BTW, marriage
lasted 10.5 years. 

The divorced status wasn't much better, since the ex-spouse was
still a SIGNIFICANT OTHER; no, not the friend with whom you share
secrets and dreams, but the powerful person who holds the strings
to the child and, thus, to the heart.  Thankfully, not to the 
wallet!  Single status ~ 2 years. 

The second marriage:  OOO-LA-LA!  I picked a good one!

One strong guideline taught me by my new spouse has helped a lot.
After watching how angry and bitter I still became (which I
hadn't noticed) while just talking about the divorce and its
aftermath, we discussed and I agreed that it's better for me, my
child, our marriage NOT TO DISCUSS either "how my previous spouse
and I separated" or "how my previous employer and I separated" --
they're both touchy topics three years later. 

After a year of marriage, a friend asked what it's like, the
second time around.  And I couldn't remember enough of the first
to form any comparison!  So, I answered TERRIFIC! 
25.7I can't agree more with .3 & .4!!PAUPER::MOZERJoe MozerWed Jul 23 1986 02:0815
    
    In many ways I'm glad to see this topic revived from the now gone
    SEXCETERA NOTES file - I considered reviving it myself but couldn't
    decide, so I'm glad someone else did!!
    
    I can't possibly agree more with Bill in .3 and Steve in .4.  I
    am presently going through a VERY nasty divorce with an unreasonable
    EX after 15+ yrs. of marriage and 2 children.  When I can find the
    time and the courage to put more of my feelings here, I will do
    so.
    
    Let it just be said for now that divorce can be hell in many ways
    and the sooner it is over the better.
    
    					Joe
25.8Congratulations! You're getting divorced!CSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityWed Jul 23 1986 04:1818
	Mind if a married voice enters in for a second?  It seems like
    there's alot of pain here.  Don't feel like you have to go through
    anything painful to please me.  I am willing to accept the fact that
    you all are divorcing as easily as I can accept the fact that you
    all married and would expect the same respect from other people.

	If I was getting divorced, I'd do it with a positive attitude.
    If it wasn't a positive step, then I wouldn't do it.  It's as simple
    as that.  Forget the lawyers, forget the soap-opera dramitizations,
    it's entirely your own relationship at stake and has never happened
    to anyone else before in exactly the same way.  Don't feel you must
    go through pain and agony just to live up to any kind of stigma or
    reputation.  If it's the courtroom you're worried about, believe me,
    a positive attitude will carry you alot farther than an emotional
    outburst.  If it truly is a sad experience, then maybe you should
    rethink the decision.

						-DAV0
25.10a few ????'sWHOARU::SHANNONWed Jul 23 1986 11:2526
    This may be totally ou of place then again it may not.
    
    But for those of you who are divorced I would like to ask a 
    generic question.
    
    Why did it happen??
    
    Was it because - sorry ladies this is from a guy's point of view
    -
    
    you were too demanding??
    
    she was too demanding??
    
    did you get bored??
    
    did you try to make it work??
    how hard??
    
    did you communicate??
    
    any other feelings you'd like to express
    cause if/when I get hitched I don't want to deal with divorce at
    all. I ant to know the "danger signs"
    
    Mikey
25.13trying to be positiveHARPO::B_HENRYBill HenryWed Jul 23 1986 14:1715
re .8  I am doing my best to look at the positive side of things.
       That is what is keeping me going. It is very difficult to
       see something positive when you are faced with the reality
       of ending a 10 9/10 year marraige. I am not going through
       all the hurt and pain because I want to. After all those
       years of commitment and sacrifice I am now faced with building
       a new life. Yes, there are lessons I have learned. There are
       some mistakes I will try and not make again. I don't know how
       long it will take to recover, there are some emotional scars
       that may never heal. At this point, I am living a day at a time.
     

Bill

25.14Incredible honesty here, good to see it !ZEPPO::MAHLERIsn't she-eeee pretty in pink ...?Wed Jul 23 1986 14:368

    RE:.8 I can't count the number of times I have said this
	about ANYTHING in my life.  Be it a new job, or
	moving -- you say you will be positive but DON'T
    REALLY know till you go through it.

		Fact.
25.15You've got to keep working at itQUARK::LIONELSteve LionelWed Jul 23 1986 14:5022
    Indeed, the biggest danger sign is when one or both spouses stop
    "working" on the marriage.  If you do that for too long, it falls
    apart.  That's basically what happened to me after 8 years.
    
    Fortunately, if you both realize that there is a problem in time,
    it is often correctable.  Unfortunately, both partners must be
    willing to make the effort, or else it's hopeless.
    
    I read something which I posted to SEXCETERA just before it died
    - it went something like this: "If you believe love lasts forever,
    then you won't work at keeping it strong; but if you live as if
    love can die, then you'll rebuild it every day".  My advice is
    to keep rebuilding your love every day, and you'll likely not
    end up like me.
    
    And for Dave in .8 - I agree with others - you have no idea what
    it's like until you've been there.  It isn't the hassles of divorce
    court, etc. that causes the pain but the inner realization that
    YOU HAVE FAILED at one of life's biggest commitments.  No matter
    how much you can "blame" your partner, you'll ALWAYS blame yourself
    more.  THAT'S what really hurts.
    					Steve
25.16TBD::ZAHAREEI hate NotesWed Jul 23 1986 15:076
    re .8
    
    I'm in agreement with .14 (gasp) and .15.  You can't know until
    you've been there.
    
    - M
25.17Once more, with feeling...CSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityWed Jul 23 1986 15:1422
re: Positive thinking

	I realize it's very hard to think about divorce in anything but
    somber terms, and I apologize if my injection of humor and spirit
    has caused anyone even more pain than they were already experiencing.

	Just remember to keep searching for that light at the end of the
    tunnel - because there is an end to every tunnel and nobody should
    feel they must stay in the tunnel (if in fact their marriage feels
    like one) no matter how much guilt you may feel about trying to get
    out.

	My only precaution is that you make sure that by filing for a
    divorce, you are in fact exiting the "tunnel" and not simply getting
    lost deeper and deeper inside it.  Divorce should feel like the light
    at the end of the tunnel, not another tunnel.  If divorce doesn't feel
    like it's showing you the light at the end, then this is the time to
    start searching for another way out of the tunnel.

						-DAV0

    p.s.  I'll be standing next to the tunnel exit cheering you on.
25.18from a child's viewCLT::BOURQUARDWed Jul 23 1986 16:3617
    I have never been divorced, but my parents divorced when I was 13
    and my older sister 17.  For those of you who are getting/have been
    divorced, please, please, please stay in contact with your children.
    
    I was always a quiet child, and my father believed that in divorcing
    my mother he was also divorcing me.  He thought my older sister
    would always keep in touch, but that I was "my mother's daughter".
    Luckily, my father's SO (and now wife) made an enormous effort to
    include my sister and I on occasional weekend outings.   I made
    a similar effort, living with my mother during the week and
    giving up weekend school activities and friends to live with my dad.  
    I wanted to keep my family, and I now consider that I have four
    parents.  Divorce is painful for everyone involved, but don't assume
    that any of your kids hate you or blame you.  I can't imagine what
    life might have been like without "all my parents".
    
    - Deb
25.20Give me a break !PENNSY::OSTIGUYLloyd J. Ostiguy, DTN 289-1231Wed Jul 23 1986 18:5810
    To DAVO MCLURE note 25.8
    
    You say you wouldn't do it unless you could take a positive approach
    !
    Well who says you get a choice. It may take two to tango but it
    only takes 1 to untango !
    
    You had to be kidding or ..............................................
    
    Lloyd
25.21he does have a pointPAUPER::KIMBROUGHgailann, maynard, ma...Wed Jul 23 1986 20:1524
    
    reg: -1
    
    Please give him a break.. I think he made a fairly reasonable state
    ment by saying he would TRY and take a positive approach.. you
    can at least try and then if it is not possible then you can at
    least have the satisfaction of knowing you gave it your best shot..
    
    I understand that the pain and anguish of a marriage breaking up
    can take its toll.. but by assuming a positive rather than negative
    attitude you really are in a much better position to try and keep
    your sanity through the whole thing.  
    
    It worked for me and for that reason I think his idea of positiveness
    is a good one.  I kept reminding myself that fighting took a lot
    more mental and emotional energy than trying to keep a constant
    disposition and a bright outlook.  Maybe some would say I lost a
    lot by doing so.. I mean material wise but my sanity and emotional
    well being were more or less kept in tact and for that reason I
    can only see that I came out on top!
    
    later, gailann
    
      
25.22The figure is I believe 50% divorce rateSERPNT::SONTAKKENuke the hypocritesWed Jul 23 1986 20:1716
    I come from the culture where divorce is almost unheard of.  Here it is
    quite disturbing to see the number of marriages which end up in
    divorces.  What is bothering me even after reading these twenty odd
    responses, I can not figure it out what makes you think that the next
    marriage is going to last?  Especially when the first one lasted for a
    long time, at least longer than the current one?  How sure are you
    that you have found the _root cause_ and have eliminated it from your
    current relationship?  
    
    Why is that in a country where each and every marriage is by choice
    of the both the partners and in many cases they even had a chance to
    cohabitate before the wedding, the divorce rate is so high?  Does
    this country think of wedding too lightly of a commitment?

    Obviously these are general questions and not directed at any one of
    you in particular. 
25.23Too many to count...ZEPPO::MAHLERWed Jul 23 1986 20:4514

    Vikas,

    There are too many reasons why the divorce rate in this country
    is so high, one of the major ones being that Americans in general
    are multi-breeds which can cause religious and cultural differences.
    In  addition there is the added freedom that American women have, in
    general, over certain other countries where the women are further
    opressed.  (Like Japan for instance).

	Just a couple, there must be many more others can cite.

    
25.24who can say?PAUPER::KIMBROUGHgailann, maynard, ma...Wed Jul 23 1986 21:3929
    
    Before sighting the freedoms of American women as a major reason.. I 
    would sight a few others that I think have more bearing on the 
    situations..
    
    I think you are correct in the cultural and religious differences
    but I think added to that comes the fact that we are in general
    a mobile society and that often takes its toll on families and
    marriages.. for instance when her family is in one area and his
    in another this can lead to unrest and disputes over where to call
    home.  Also this is a country that often makes the 'single' life 
    look glamorous and enticing.. too many people end up thinking that 
    the single life is where it's at!  We have come to except single 
    parent homes as normal and thus there is not the stigma attached to it 
    that there was in the past...  also in this get ahead society people 
    in general are apt to shed things that they might view as a hindrance 
    to their climbing the social and economic latter.. a spouse that is 
    unwilling to go along with career moves and take financial risks in
    the interest of getting ahead is often left behind.  
    
    I too, don't think there are any clear cut reasons for such a high
    divorce rate.. but I do notice that in societies where family life
    is considered a wealth in itself and people are more geographically
    close and the culture and religions do not differ as drastically
    as they do here.. you see the rate of divorce far declined to what
    it is here.  Right or wrong I think it says something.
    
    later, gailann
                 
25.25$.02MMO01::PNELSONSearching for TopekaThu Jul 24 1986 05:0142
Then:
    Dave0, I think I understand where you were coming from in .8.  But
    divorce is so devastating, I can't imagine how it could ever look
    positive at least from the inside.  I don't believe it matters who
    initiated it, whether you're the divorcer or the divorcee, there's
    just no way to look positively at having your dreams crushed and
    your life falling in pieces at your feet.

Now:
    After a few years alone, you gain some perspective.  I for one can look
    at the divorce in a positive light _now_, 5 years later.  Being
    divorced and alone is *far* better than living in an unhappy marriage. 
    
    I've realized that over a period of 10 years, I lost every ounce
    of self esteem I'd ever had, gradually, without knowing it.  I had
    no respect at all for myself by the time I finally woke up and realized
    it.  It took me several years just to start liking myself again,
    and I believe I'm still adjusting (maybe always will be).
    
    Don't get me wrong, being single can be the pits sometimes, but I'm
    infinitely better off now than I was when I was married. 
    
Why: 
    I think I had an entry in SEXCETERA, I think in the Soulmates note,
    about how people grow and change, and they either grow together or they
    grow apart.  I don't know how on earth you can know which way it's
    going to go when you choose somebody to marry. My husband and I grew
    apart, we changed in opposite directions. When we got married we had
    lots in common; by the time the marriage ended we had almost no common
    interests and communications were almost nil.
    
How do you get through it? 
    The unconditional love your parents offer turns out to be a liability,
    at least it did for me.  I needed to feel I was OK, needed to be TOLD I
    was OK.  I knew my parents would love me even if I *weren't* OK.  I
    guess I needed some support from someone who didn't have to like me but
    did anyway. I leaned very heavily on friends, and thank goodness they
    were there for me because they got me through it. Without that support
    I would have ended up a basket case, and there are a couple of people
    to whom I'll be forever indebted for that reason.
    
    					(^:	Positive Pat	:^)
25.26Some more reasons...PAUPER::MOZERJoe MozerThu Jul 24 1986 11:5165
    
    Re. .22
    
    I can easily understand your confusion about the divorce rate being
    so high in the U.S.  Being in the situation myself, I have wondered
    about that many times and have come up with some reasons that may
    help you understand.
    
    I agree with previous REPLYs that mentioned ethnic, religious,
    geographic and just "growing apart" as reasons for marriages here
    breaking up after a few or many years (mine ended after 15+ years
    of marriage).  Gailann and Pat hit the nail on the head with their
    thoughtful and well written responses.  In addition, I have the
    following thoughts/observations:
    
    Most people in this country tend to get married in their late teens
    to early twenties.  By the time they are in their thirties, each
    of them is usually a VERY different person than they were when they
    got married (values, beliefs, goals, etc.).  IF both people in the
    marriage choose to change in a way that is compatible with the marriage
    and communication between them is good or better, then the marriage
    will usually "make it".  If not, then what Pat talks about of having
    many common interests and good communication when she got married
    and no common interests and no communication at the end is what
    happens.  Most of us can think of ourselves when we were 30 and
    when we compare it with who/what we were at 20, and realize that
    we are VERY different than we were just 10 years earlier.
    
    Another reason that I feel very strongly contributes to the high
    divorce rate here is a lack of committment on the part of either
    or both parties entering into the marriage.  All too often the idea
    that "if it doesn't work, we can always get a divorce" is all too
    prevalent amongst people getting married today.  I feel this undermines
    the firm goal to do all that is possible to make the marriage work.
    I am NOT saying that people should stay married no matter what.
    What I am saying is that if more people, when faced with a choice
    of how they change, pick the one that is more consistant with the
    marriage and their marriage partner.  This is not what happened
    in my case.  In other words, I feel that marriage is sacred and
    that those entering into it should (and that's not a word I use
    lightly) go into it with the goal of it "lasting forever" and do
    all REASONABLE things in their power to make it last.  If this has
    been done and the marriage still isn't "working", then a parting
    of the ways is the most sensible thing to do.  Hopefully, there
    is good enough communication between the couple that they can talk
    out the differences with the possibility that the marriage is still
    savable.
    
    While I don't feel that ANY marriage should stay together "for the
    sake of the children," I do feel that if there are children involved,
    there should be a bit more effort to try to make it work.  I don't
    feel this is happening here either.
    
    The last numbers I've heard (and I do not verify their accuracy)
    is that 60 per-cent of all marriages here end in divorce, with the
    divorce rate for 2nd marriages being even higher than that.  The
    fact that this high divorce rate isn't considered a national disease
    makes me wonder about where people's values are today.  With "living
    together" as accepted as it is in this country, I don't feel people
    should get married unless they really want to work to make it last.
    If this was done more often, I think the lawyers in this country
    wouldn't be as busy and rich as they are now from all the nasty
    divorces that are happening today (including mine....)
    
    				Joe
25.27the grass is always greenerHARPO::B_HENRYBill HenryThu Jul 24 1986 14:4520
I feel another thing that contributes to the divorce rate is
peoples expectations of what married life is all about. No wonder
people seem to always think that life has got to be better
elsewhere or (in my soon to be ex-wifes case) with someone else.
I remember when I was young watching such TV shows like Leave It 
To Beaver and Father Knows Best where there were no serious family
problems, at least none that took more than 30 minutes once a week
to fix, the house was always clean, every morning mother was up
dressed and fixing breakfast for everyone else and the father 
always seemed to have answers to all of lifes problems. The "education"
kids are getting from TV these days is "programing" them and this programing
is what is going to be a big part of how they handle life in the future.
Just name one TV program showing family life that shows people dealing
with real problems. Look at how people react to problems on your afternoon
soaps. It makes me sick as to how the media depicts life and when you get 
people believing what they seen on the tube, no wonder everybody is unhappy
with themselves.

Bill

25.28SERPNT::SONTAKKENuke the hypocritesThu Jul 24 1986 15:0720
    RE: .26
    
>    The last numbers I've heard (and I do not verify their accuracy) is
>    that 60 per-cent of all marriages here end in divorce, with the divorce
>    rate for 2nd marriages being even higher than that.
    
    This quite a chilling prospect for any marriage.  As you could see
    from my original response, the fact that we tend _not_ to learn
    from our previous mistakes frightens me the most.

    RE: *
    
    I agree that one of the reason the divorce rate is so high is the
    tendency here to get married in late teen or early twenties.  It would
    be very interesting to see what kind of correlation is there between
    the early marriages and their failure rate.  Am I right in assuming
    that late twenties and early thirties marriages have a lot better
    chance of succeeding? 
    
    - Vikas
25.29<generic> Liberation is a big reason!YODA::BARANSKILife is reconciling contradictions.Thu Jul 24 1986 16:0929
I feel that Woman's Liberation has had a large impact on the divorce statistics,
and for positive reasons.  I am not decrying Woman's Liberation. 

First off, you have more different possibile martital situations in life then
before.  This makes it more likely that you and your partner will drift apart,
by sheer statistics alone.  Some men might want a liberated woman, and some
might not, and a lot of them will change their mind somewhere down the road. 

While Woman's Liberation frees women to do more things, in practice, in a lot of
situations it meant that more was EXPECTED of them.  I.E. the wife often ends up
working, AND cooking and cleaning...  This is one reason that many woman have
become disenchanted with Woman's Liberation.

Because of Woman's Liberation, and liberal practices in general which treat
children as equals as well, a family has become a Democracy, rather then a
Monarchy.  Democracies are a lot harder to keep together, when you can just
leave.

What's the fix?  Maybe we should listen to the Bible, and go back to the man
being the king of the castle..., or maybe, in spite of it's drawbacks, <generic>
Liberation is worth it, maybe society will eventually grow beyond the
Patriarchical family, and the Transition family (divorce prone). 

Jim.

PS.  I have heard of several people getting divorced without lawyers.  In
my mind, in an amiable divorce, the lawyers just create havoc...

 
25.30PAUPER::KIMBROUGHgailann, maynard, ma...Thu Jul 24 1986 16:1422
    
    I think that a later marriage, late twenties/early thirties, does
    indeed have a better chance of surviving..
    
    I remember when I was married thinking that it could not possibly
    work.. but I was so caught up in the whole thing.. the wedding plans,
    the thought of having my own home, the idea that I was going to
    be a wife and hopefully a mother.. it was just such an overwhelming
    thing for an 18 year old.. If I had had the wisdom of a few more
    years under my belt maybe I would have had the courage to admit
    to my misgivings instead of ignoring them and also to have realized
    that a marriage is not based on the glamour of the wedding itself
    but on real true gut rooted feeling that you should be as sure of
    as possible about..  
    
    Who knows.. I certainly don't.. but to this day I sure don't like
    having have added to the statistics and being another one that did
    not make it work.. 
    
    later, ga
                         
    
25.31generic... indeed! humph!PAUPER::KIMBROUGHgailann, maynard, ma...Thu Jul 24 1986 16:188
    reg: .29
    
    good thing that reply got in before I did or I really would have
    gone on for lines and lines..
    
    you are entitled to your opinion for sure.. But I think it stinks!
    
    ga
25.32Why can't this country be a secular nation?SERPNT::SONTAKKENuke the hypocritesThu Jul 24 1986 21:1021
    RE: .29
    
    You and your Bible.  You sure know how to touch a raw nerve, don't
    you?
    
    I would really appreciate if I don't have to listen to your Bible or
    Church ravings.  Do I bore you with *my* religion?  Why can't you be
    little bit more reasonable and keep your religion out of this
    discussion? 
    
    Please don't force me to lose respect for your beliefs by needlessly
    touting them in front of me. 
    
    There already more than enough conference on our network to discuss
    your Bible and Christianity.  Is nothing sacred anymore?
    
    - Vikas

    P.S. May be you think I am intolerant.  I just wish *you* were more
    tolerant and at least accept the fact that there more than one religion
    in the world and not everyone is going to belong to your religion.
25.33not "the other side of marriage"DSSDEV::REINIGKathy ReinigThu Jul 24 1986 23:3218
    to return to the first digression... :-)
    
    A few replies back, someone made a comment about some people marrying
    with the thought "and if it doesn't work, we can always get a divorce."
    
    When this topic first appeared, I almost responded about the topic
    heading, but didn't want to begin a digression, but as long as it
    has already started...  I think one of the problems with our society
    and marriage is our willingness to think of divorce as "the other
    side of marriage".  Divorce is the legal end of a failed marriage.

    What then (if anything) is "the other side of marriage"?  I'd say
    family, whether a family of two or of a larger number.  That state
    of mind where you try to think us instead of me.
    
                                                        Kathy
    
    
25.34Sequel to .25MMO03::PNELSONSearching for TopekaFri Jul 25 1986 02:0323
    I'm NOT, repeat NOT, a card-carrying women's libber.  But I just
    can't see that the cause of the divorce rate today is that we aren't
    slaves any more.  Women today have so many doors open to us that
    weren't open to our mothers.
    
    Is it possible, however,  that the very fact that we have so many
    choices contributes?  What I'm saying is that life for women used to be
    simple, uncomplicated.  You knew how you'd spend your entire life from
    the time you were a little girl and it never occurred to you to wish or
    hope for anything else.  There were almost no choices to be made, and
    when you did marry you were totally dependent on your husband for your
    well-being.  I'd imagine many marriages lasted simply because the wife
    was AFRAID to make trouble because of economic insecurity. Whenever
    complexity is added to a situation, the margin for error increases, and
    the lives of women have certainly become orders of magnitude more
    complex in the past 10 years or so. 
    
    As a last comment,
    
		    LONG LIVE COMPLEXITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    
    						(^:	Positive Pat	:^)
25.35Causes of divorceSSDEVO::DENHAMLife's a game; play itFri Jul 25 1986 02:2858
    Well, although I've never been *married*, I've been in a 4 year
    relationship, with verbalized, understood commitments to each other.
    For a number of reasons, which I don't want to get into here, we
    decided that marriage, with all of it's implications, was not the
    thing to do, ever.  But it didn't work.  Why?  Well, as it was said
    earlier, we seemed to have a lot of things in common when we started.
    I had some emotional needs, which he fulfilled, he was happy to
    have me, to have someone to come home to.  We got along pretty well
    for the most part.  Even after breaking up, we still see each other,
    and talk to each other several times a week.  But, after a year
    or two, he became more introverted than he had been (he always was
    the quiet sort), and I became bored spending all of my free time
    with him, or alone.  So, I started trying to get into more social
    activities.  First, with him, in activities and organizations that
    we were both interested in.  But he didn't feel that it was worth
    the effort to do, and suggested that I find friends by myself. 
    So, I did, and got involved with groups that shared *my* interests
    which were not his interests (after all, if these are my activities,
    I shouldn't have to consider his interests in them).  Gradually,
    over time, I developed and redeveloped interests which were vastly
    different from his.  Meanwhile, he is slowly developing his own
    set of interests, since he is spending a lot of his time alone while
    I'm exploring my interests.  I realized at some point, about 1.5
    or 2 years before we actually broke up that we were doomed.  But
    I stayed, since things weren't really *bad*, and I felt that there
    was a chance that things would turn around, and it's hard to leave
    something that is comfortable, even if not ideal.  Finally, I got
    up the nerve to do something about it.  We finally, after it was
    too late, discussed what had happen, our interests, how we felt,
    and discovered that we had virtually *nothing* in common any more,
    AND HADN'T EVEN REALIZED IT, even living in the same house, and
    seeing and talking about each other on a daily basis.  So, obviously,
    it was time to leave, and go on with life.
    
    RE:  .29  (Jim)
    
    I agree, that a democracy is harder to make work than a monarchy.
    But how do we decide who should run things?  You suggest that we
    "Listen to the Bible, and go back to the man being king of the castle".
    I've got a better suggestion.  Let's go back to the customs of
    pre-Christian Europeans, and pre-Christian south seas islanders
    that is, to have the eldest female family member run everything.
    
    There is another reason that Women's Liberation has increased the
    divorce statistics.  That is, if a marriage situation is intolerable,
    the woman has the option of getting out.  100 years or so ago, a
    woman simply couldn't get a divorce from a cruel husband, or if
    she did, would probably find herself having to engage in prostitution
    in order to have adequate money to survive herself - not to mention
    if there were any children.  This change is certainly for the better.
    
    RE: (last several)
    Jim is entitled to his opinion about the Bible.  Everyone else is
    entitled to theirs.  Please, let's respect each others beliefs here,
    or go to the Religion conference to debate them.
    
    Kathleen
                                                                         
25.36STAR::TOPAZFri Jul 25 1986 12:3013
     
     A lot of people in this topic seem to have equated divorce with
     failure.  I don't buy that.  To me, it means that the people who
     decided to agree to a commitment to each other have made a new
     decision: namely, to (formally) end that commitment.  What's wrong
     with that?  
     
     Obviously, there can be heaps of pain involved, especially when only
     one of the two people want to end the commitment, but the whole
     concept of guilt, coming from the Divorce=Failure theory, is
     unwarranted. 
     
     --Mr Topaz
25.37It's nobody else's businessCSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityFri Jul 25 1986 16:1938
	Well, I think I've finally found a reply in here that isn't too
    tainted with emotion to respond to: Mr. Topaz (.36?) seems to have a cool
    head about the REAL problems which alot of divorced people are facing,
    and I think these are the sorts of problems which cause the added
    (and unneccessary) pain to an already painful situation.

	Isn't it strange how we feel as though it's nobody's business but
    our own as to our choice of a person to marry, but when the topic of
    divorce comes up, it suddenly becomes everybody's business?  This
    license to intrude into a divorcing couple's lives is quite wide-spread
    and is maintained by not only the laws of the land, but by most relig-
    ious organizations as well.

	I think there are alot of reasons for the increased divorce rate,
    let's face it: we're living alot longer now than ever before, and we
    have the opportunity to grow (different) in more ways than were possible
    when the Bible,Koran,Torah,etc.,etc., were written.  Our society is in
    a logarythmically increasing rate of fluxuation (from left to right) and
    in seemingly bigger swings each time.  But to try to lay all of society's
    problems on the shoulders of those who are getting divorced is a real
    tragedy.  To make a divorced people feel as though they have somehow
    failed by breaking a "sacred committment" is no different than making
    a particular group of people (say the Jews in WWII) scapegoats for all
    of societies woes.

	I will say again, that no matter what the decisions are of those
    out there who are currently considering divorce, that whatever the
    decision is: I will stand by you - you don't have to prove anything to
    me (the way you may have to for the rest of society).  I wish I could say
    this in a way which doesn't sound like I'm trying to attack either the
    institution of marriage or those who are getting divorced, but I think
    people are going to read alot into this statement regardless of how I
    say it.  Hopefully, someday the decision to divorce will be given the
    same sort of respect as the decision to marry, but in the meantime, most
    people are going to look at the thought of divorce as a theat to their
    own marriage - and therefore with alarm.

							-davo
25.38NCCSB::ACKERMANEnd-of-the-Rainbow_SeekerFri Jul 25 1986 16:1921
    re 36
    
    perhaps the guilt is unwarranted - however, it seems to be human
    nature....  Art was married before me (this is my first marriage),
    when he finally decided it wasn't going to work out (and she agreed)
    he felt guilty and I'd say if there was anyone who wouldn't feel
    guilty it would be he.  It just _happens_
    
    another question/comparison on the topic...  Did any of you have
    to fight the "ghost" of the ex once you became involved with a
    divorcee?  I know I did and was wondering if this is common.  For
    example, while we dated for almost 3 years no problem..  Once we
    married it seems like overnight Art was preparing for me to turn
    into another Jennifer.  I had to really fight her ghost and convince
    him I didn't THINK like she did/would, I didn't ACT like she did/would,
    and probably most important, wouldn't REACT like she did/would in
    the similar things that happened in their life together when they
    happened to us.  Talk about uphill climb.....  but worth *every*
    step of the way.
    
    
25.39Learning through experienceJON::MAIEWSKIFri Jul 25 1986 17:0519
      I agree with .36 and .37. I don't think that divorce should always
    mean failure. Some times it is right for people to have a relationship
    that lasts for 5 or 6 years. They both learn from each other, grow,
    change, and move on.
    
      Some suggest that you should wait until you are older to avoid
    this but just because years are going by that does not mean that
    you are growing. It may work for some but not for everyone. Some
    people need several close relationships to match their changes
    as they grow.
    
      I know many people that are having successful relationships now
    that they would not have been ready for if they had not had the
    chance to go through a marrage earlier. These earlier marriages
    were not failures, they were learning experiences that provided
    the background necessary to go on with life.
    
      George
                                             
25.40How do I word this...AKOV68::EATONFri Jul 25 1986 17:2417
    	I want to say this in a way that is not offensive or in any
    way draws out any existing guilt on those who have opened their
    hearts in this note.  I hope you all understand what I'm getting
    at and not resort to flaming...
    
    	Dav0 (?) spoke about people not feeling as though they failed
    by breaking a "sacred committment".  I know that my vows were written
    to be just that - a sacred commitment.
    
    	My question is this:  While I had relied on a pretty traditional
    text for my wedding ceremony, I know many write their own vows.
    By virtue of your experiences, have any of you that have remarried
    felt compelled to alter your vows to support a non-traditional view
    (i.e. traditional being "till death do us part")?  If so, would
    you share them with us?
    
    	Dan (who_doesn't_want_to_sound_down_on_divorced_people)
25.41separated people feel the same way...BACH::COCHRANEGee, this could be fun.Fri Jul 25 1986 17:4031
    If married people can interject opinions into this, I suppose
    the separated-but-not-yet-divorced among us can as well.
    
    I am currently in the middle of a very painful separation,
    mutually agreed upon, from a man I still love very much,
    and a marriage that last one and a half years.  I truely believe
    we are doing/and have done everything in our power to save this
    marriage.  We both married with the idea that "marriage is forever"
    that you don't just divorce, that you work things out.  I am now
    beginning to believe that if two people's ideas, goals, hopes and
    dreams are just too far out of whack, there's nothing you can do.
    We've been couseling (individual and together) since I moved
    out in March.  And it's becoming painfully obvious that we're
    just *very* different.  My husband has a very traditional view
    of what family life should be.  I am much more liberated.  I have
    very definite ideas about what I want out of my life, and they are
    very different from my husband's.  Keeping this marriage together
    will probably entail both of us compromising greatly our feelings
    and viewpoints.  I don't know if I'm willing to accept that.  I
    love my husband, he loves me.  What we each want for the other is
    happiness.  If we can't achieve that together, then I love him enough
    to want him to achieve it elsewhere.  And *that* at least we agree
    on, as he feels the same way about me.  In divorce, I don't believe
    that oftentimes there a "right" and a "wrong" (mind you, special
    cases exist), there's just a "different."  I hope we can still work
    things out, but I'm beginning to think that divorce is inevitable.
    And that feels very sad, but we've both tried hard enough that I
    don't feel in any way we've *failed*.  We truely gave this marriage
    the best we could give.  Sometimes love just isn't enough.
    
    Mary-Michael
25.42While you are investigating the greener grass...CSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityFri Jul 25 1986 18:2723
re: .41,

	Mary, I feel like I can relate to your situation to a certain
    degree, in that I consider myself to be somewhat liberal in my attitudes
    whereas my wife Karin is a very conservative girl from a somewhat strict
    (Catholic) upbringing.  I think Karin and I disagree on certain issues,
    but for the most part we end up COMPLEMENTING each other's dreams and
    goals rather than conflicting.

	There's an old saying: "opposites attract".  I sometimes get
    frustrated with Karin's traditional views, but when I think about the
    prospects of living with someone like me, I think that would drive me
    absolutely bonkers.  I think Karin feels the same way about this because
    she dated a guy who was just as traditional as she was for 5 years and while
    everyone thought they would make a "perfect" couple, they both knew that
    it would never work and as a result, never even considered it.

	Anyway, I just thought I'd give you something to think about while
    you two make your decision.  I hope you don't take this as any sort of
    pressure because I wouldn't want to try and influence you one way or
    the other, in any case, I wish you all the luck in your pursuit of
    happiness!
							-davo
25.44opposites attract, but flames attract mothsBACH::COCHRANEGee, this could be fun.Fri Jul 25 1986 19:1920
    re: 42-
    
    	No offense taken.  Thanks for some extremely hopeful remarks.
    I'm actually the liberal woman from a strictly Catholic background
    (interesting combination of terms, I'll admit) and my husband is
    an extremely traditional man from a liberal, non-religious background.
    I will agree that opposites attract, however in our own case as
    time goes by we discover that our differences have extended to every
    level of the relationship including important issues such as children
    and my pursuit of a technical career with Digital.  What my husband
    really wants is a wife and mother, a homemaker.  And there's nothing
    wrong with that.  The problem is that I'm not sure that's what I
    want out of life.  And my current position as a cluster manager
    upsets him greatly.  If the issues weren't so heavy, I'd agree with
    you one hundred percent. But as it stands, if I can't be what he
    feels he need emotionally out of a partner, the least I can do to
    show my love for him to to let go to let him find what he needs,
    and find what I need as well.
    
    Mary-Michael
25.45VAXclusters can ruin a marriage!TBD::ZAHAREEMichael W. ZahareeFri Jul 25 1986 19:235
    re .44
    
    So your soon to be ex has a problem with clusters, eh?  :-)
    
    - M
25.46marriage can ruin your careerLOGIC::COCHRANEGee, this could be fun.Fri Jul 25 1986 20:2619
    He has a problem with ME working with VAXclusters!  My husband is
    also involved in the computer industry.  However, he didn't get
    the breaks that I got just from being in the right place at the
    right time.  He feels threatened by my doing so well in *his* field.
    I enjoy my work.  Therein lies the problem, or at least one of 
    them.  The current proposed "compromise" on his part was my staying
    with Digital, but returning to the secretarial field (which I have
    worked my way quite sucessfully *out* of, and which I was significantly
    over-qualified for in the first place).  Since I enjoy cluster
    management and view it as a career, I don't think much of the
    "compromise".  The reasoning behind the "compromise" was so that
    I'd be home every evening at five to make dinner for him, so that
    it was ready when he got home.  If that's his mindset, that's ok
    with me, but that's not a function I provide at the expense of personal
    fulfillment.
    
    And other problems like that.
    
    Mary-Michael
25.47It's time for some creative solutions...CSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityFri Jul 25 1986 20:4114
re: Catholics,

	Oh yeah, I forgot, Catholics are all sinners right?  That would
    tend to make them more liberal (less traditional) on the whole I guess.
    Gee, since I'm a not a sinner (I'm a Unitarian Universalist), I guess that 
    makes me somewhat conservative and traditional.  Thanks for straightening
    me out on this one!  I knew there was a reason why I occasionally protest
    at having to do the dishes.

	As to your career as a cluster whiz...any chance of configuring a
    clustered-marriage?  Oh, sorry, I guess there are laws against that sort
    of thing (at least while we are still in MARRIAGE VERSION 2.0).

							-davo
25.49:vDCSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityFri Jul 25 1986 21:083
	...somebody else answer this please...I'm still laughing!!!

							-davo
25.50You can't tell it's past 5:00 on Friday can you?CSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityFri Jul 25 1986 21:185
re: .48,

	...I guess it all depends on just how "tightly coupled" you are...

							-davo
25.52Do you have any manuals on this cluster marriage stuff?CSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityFri Jul 25 1986 21:236
Suzanne,

	You'd better not let Ed Meese get his hands on that manual you're
    reading, he might add it to his "list".  By the way, got an extra copy?

							-davo
25.54SSDEVO::DENHAMLife's a game; play itSat Jul 26 1986 00:114
    Does a cluster marriage make a lot of noise upon forming?  (My 7
    node VAXcluster sure does!)
    
    Kathleen
25.55PASSWORD PLEASEJAWS::AUSTINTom Austin @UPO - Channels MarketingSat Jul 26 1986 02:561
    How does one correctly SET HOST? Are there guest accounts?
25.56Separation IS the cause of the painMMO01::PNELSONSearching for TopekaSat Jul 26 1986 14:1718
RE: .41
    
    Mary-Michael, you're talking about separation as if it were a different
    but related topic.  I think it IS the topic we're discussing here.
    Divorce itself is trivial; mine took 10 - 15 minutes in front of a
    judge or magistrate (whatever he was, I certainly didn't care).  My
    husband didn't even have to be there.  Filing was just about as
    trivial; my attorney filled out all the paperwork and all I had to do
    was obtain my husband's signature. 
    
    What we're REALLY discussing here IS separation.  That's where the
    pain is.  That's what divorce really is.  The legal part is nothing.
    
    Just wanted you to understand that the pain you're feeling is what
    this note is all about.
        
    					(^:	Positive Pat	:^)
   
25.59*BEST* of luck!!NCCSB::ACKERMANEnd-of-the-Rainbow_SeekerSat Jul 26 1986 23:075
    
    That's great, Suzanne!  You can bet there will be at least one person
    thinking about you in Lynchburg; 10:00AM EDT, 8:00AM your time!
    
    			Billie
25.60How to deal with both emotional and physical scarsCSTVAX::MCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquitySun Jul 27 1986 08:018
        It's interesting to see how people find ways to cope with hard
    situations like divorce.  I've heard of "washing that man right out
    of your hair", but a nosejob is a new one on me!  Anyone else care to
    comment on things they have done to recover from their emotional scars?

                                                       -davo

    p.s.  Good luck on the nose Suzanne!
25.61Feelings on divorce ...MMO01::RESENDESteve @MMO, MMO01::, DTN 356-6774Mon Jul 28 1986 05:1456
        Back to the base note for awhile.

        I assume you'd accept the feelings of someone who was  filed
        as well as someone who files for the "big D".  I didn't want
        to end the marriage.  However, I had a quick education about
        state  law when I found out that, sure enough, if one person
        wants out, that's all it takes.  I didn't fight it, however.
        I  realized  that  if  she  really was determined to end the
        relationship, there was no point in trying to drag  out  the
        pain.

        You ask for feelings during this time.  It's been 3-4  years
        and I'm still not able to verbalize them very well.

        There's a lot of rejection.  An incredible amount, being the
        filee rather than the filer.

        There's a lot of pain, physical pain, in the  tearing  apart
        of the structure of your life, the shattering of your dreams
        and aspirations, the crushing of your hopes.

        There's a lot of loneliness, when  your  family  can't  help
        ease  it,  and  your  friends  understand but can't fill the
        void.

        And there's a lot of "temporary insanity" as one  respondent
        called  it.   The  only  way to get through it for me was to
        work.  To throw everything into work until there was no time
        or   energy  to  think  about  what  had  happened  and  was
        happening.

        The feeling now is mostly of uncertainly about  the  future.
        It is quite a rude awakening to see a basic belief shattered
        - that a life-long marriage isn't necessarily so.

        The feeling is there of uncertainty in  approaching  another
        relationship, when you won't settle for anything less than a
        better one  than  before,  and  you  still  want  it  to  be
        life-long; a desire which statistics do not seem to support.

        The feeling is there of having grown from this "life event",
        of  being  stronger  and wiser, and more vulnerable.  It's a
        case of mixed blessings where you'd not go back to once  was
        for  anything,  and yet longing in some ways for a little of
        the "security" that "fantasy world" represented.  Reality is
        not so nice sometimes.

                                                    Page 2


        There's no logic to these feelings.  By definition, feelings
        come before logic or reason.  You asked for the feelings and
        these are the one that come most easily to mind.   I'm  sure
        there are more, but tis late.

        -Steve-
25.62Thanks for making me feel less alone!LOGIC::COCHRANEGee, this could be fun.Tue Jul 29 1986 20:4918
    I'd like to thank everyone for their support (and humor) on the
    subject of my separation.  I think this is the first time I've
    laughed about it in the four months since I've moved out (I've
    never tried the clustered approach to marriage - if you can't form
    or join a cluster do you call field service?), and it's probably
    time I saw SOME humor in something!
    
    And no, Dave, I don't believe that being Catholic is necessary
    being liberal or Unitarian being straight and traditional or anything
    like that.  People have the right to be different.  Unfortunately,
    these differences sometimes cause problems, as in the case of my
    husband and I.  You just need to live and let live, I guess.
    
    You've all been great!! I'm real glad I decided to share my feelings!!
    
    Mary-Michael
    
    P.S.  Good luck with the nose Suzanne!!!! :-)   MM
25.63Yes, it hurts for a long time...SERF::EPSTEINContradance; no contra supportWed Jul 30 1986 14:4924
Boy, go out of town for a week, and miss all the excitement... :-)

I agree with many of the previous replies; the decision to separate
is *much* more difficult than the divorce itself.

My first wife and I separated almost 6 years ago (and divorced
a year later), and I still am not really sure what happened.  What
was wierd was the fact that we spent hours on the phone talking to each
other every day, yet couldn't really stand to live with each other.
We have maintained a tentative friendship still; the problem is that 
my (second) wife is bothered by the spectre of the ex. Geography helps
(my ex lives in Ohio). 

My advice to anyone separating, or contemplating it:
Make sure you have adequate emotional support (i.e. friends, family, 
etc.); there will be days when you need *someone else* to help you 
(it's very hard to do it alone). I remember one night when it felt 
like I was completely alone in the world; I tried calling friends, with
no luck, so I tried the various hotlines in the phone book, also with no
reponse, not even the suicide hotline (glad that wasn't something I 
was considering!).

Bruce
25.65SWSNOD::RPGDOCThu Jul 31 1986 12:099
    RE: .47
    
    Gregory Rasputin, the mad monk adviser to Tsar Nicolas of Russia,
    when asked by one of the faithful, what is the first thing they
    must do to be forgiven for their sins, replied, "SIN".
    
    	- Stolen without permission, God forbid, from Reader's Digest
    
    			Former Catholic Sinner, now Unitarian-Universalist
25.66Mediation9449::KINZELMANPaul KinzelmanThu Aug 07 1986 18:1818
    Sorry about the late reply but I just got back from a much needed
    camping and hanging out vacation in California and the NW US. Anyway,
    I'm currently finalizing a divorce (separated for 6 months) and
    it's never easy but that's been well covered in previous notes.
    What I didn't see much on was the logistics of the splitup. I can't
    stand paying lawers anything, so we went to mediation. That's one
    person that tries to hammer out a compromise that both people are
    willing to voluntarily sign so that the courtroom scene is merely
    a formality. It's far cheaper and easier on the feelings than slugging
    it out in court and if it fails, you can still go the court route.
    I'd highly recommend it (in the same way that I'd recommend a surgeon
    - if you gotta go, you gotta go). I got some names from the DEC
    EAP program. The person helps you prepare all the necessary forms
    so that you really don't have to deal with a lawyer at all. If anybody
    wants more specific info or names, you are welcome to send mail
    directly to me.
    	-Paul
    
25.67QUARK::LIONELSteve LionelThu Aug 07 1986 20:355
    There is nothing that says you use a lawyer only if you are going
    to "slug it out".  I got a lawyer for a quite reasonable fee and
    he has done very well in helping me protect my rights.  I have no
    intention of going to court (except as a formality, if necessary).
    					Steve
25.68:^)SSDEVO::DENHAMLife's a game; play itThu Aug 07 1986 23:0611
    RE: .62
    
    >(I've
    >never tried the clustered approach to marriage - if you can't form
    >or join a cluster do you call field service?)
    
    Only if you are trying to obtain a field service engineer for an
    SO.
    
    Kathleen
    
25.69It's all over now...ARGUS::CORWINJill CorwinFri Aug 15 1986 21:0837
I agree with a lot of things that have been said so far, and have learned
a great deal.  Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

The decision to end our 4-year-old marriage did take a long time; we had to
both be convinced there was nothing marital left to the relationship and we
were again "just friends."  I was very sad that my marriage, which I had thought
(until a few months before) would last forever, was over.  I was very scared;
I had never lived alone before, having been married right after college.  I
had a lot of the same feelings as Bill in .3.  I was lucky to have a lot of
supportive friends, and a supportive family back home.

I felt a lot like Steve in .4; I was also surprised by the breakup.  We had
just discovered we were in a terrible mess, we hadn't been communicating at
all and were going in two totally different directions.  I thought we could
just "fix things" and get back on track, but my now-ex husband said he thought
maybe we should get divorced (*WHAT???*).  I realized that if he didn't want to
be married to me, how could I be married to him?

As far as we were concerned, when we decided to break up, we were "divorced."
We divided up our belongings reasonably, sold the house (after owning it for
exactly 1 1/2 years!), split up the money, and were very happy we had no
children (or pets.)  Our friends helped us move to our new apartments (and we
helped each other.)  And that was that.  Eventually we got around to the
paperwork.  I let my now-ex do the filing and appear in court, since he lived
closer and it was easier (and quicker/cheaper) that way.  He called me when he
was done, and gave me the date it would be final (3 months.)  I called him that
day and we said "happy divorce" to each other.  I had no idea how I would react
that day, and am happy to say I was indeed happy; the pain had been long over,
and now the legal stuff was over too.  We're still "friends" as opposed to
"un-friends", but we have separate lives now, and rarely see each other.

I am in love again.  I don't want to be divorced again.  I will do my best
to keep the lines of communication open, and hope to nip any future problems
in the bud.

Jill

25.70Call a spade a shovelATFAB::REDDENBob is what a cork does when a fish bitesFri Aug 22 1986 17:3010
    Several replies have touched on the notion that divorce is failure.
    Yeah, well, whats wrong with failing, anyway.  A guaranteed formula
    for avoiding failure is never take a risk.
    
    Alternate view - how about a cultural convention that requires/allows
    two marital failures before one is "really" married.  The failures
    could be with the same person you eventually married.
    
    Curiously - in cultures with "arranged" marriages, is divorce ever
    an issue?
25.72just wondering here...YODA::BARANSKINothing to Need, Hide from, or Fear...Wed Aug 27 1986 18:5933
RE: .31 genericlib

Are you saying that is not so generic?  I agree, it is not so generic.  But I
think that there are just as many changes to be made of each side (male/female).

RE: .32 Me and my Bible

I speak of the Bible, (in this case), as an option which it certainly is, no
more. Yes, I think you are either intolerant or a demon if you feel pained every
time you hear the word "Bible".

RE: .35

I would not have any more problems being in a household run by a woman, then I
would have in a household run by a man.  I guess that my point is that a family
needs to be 'run' by someone, male or female.  There are definitely times when I
would *much* rather sit back and relax and follow (or not follow) orders, then
lead.

BTW, it sounds like your previous situation was a female run household...
Does not sound too different from a male run household.

RE: fighting 'ghost' of ex of divorcee

Well I have been '''involved''' with a number of divorcee's, and I would say
that with each person, I inherited some of the problems of the marriage. And
that was ok, because I felt that I helped the divorcee finsh working through the
problems, and put them to rest.  It was trying, but fullfilling, and all I did
was be patient and kind. 

Jim.

 
25.73Sorry - I can't come up with a good titleNANOOK::SCOTTLee Scott (Portsmouth Harbor)Tue Sep 02 1986 01:09157
First of all I'ld like to thank everyone for sharing their experiences 
with divorce. I've thought about the subject for about 6 years now.
4 were spent in reasoning why, 1 in comming to grips with seperation,
and now the last year in the deep reasons as to why I got maried in
the first place.  This is the first time I've read the experiences of
other people and I think it has fortified many of my conclusions though,
my own set of circumstances were in many ways different.

    When I opened up this conference this morning, I didn't expect
I'ld be responding so soon to a topic I've been so involved with
but after reading the past 72 responses I feel compelled now to
try to put into words what I went thru.  (Pardon me while I brew
up a cup of coffee and try to get more comfortable.  Squeezing
into a V-birth with a PRO-350 is not the easiest, neither is this
topic.)

    You'll also have to pardon me since this is the first time
I'm writting about my past not to mention that this is the first time
I'm talking about it with anyone other than myself and since none of
you know me I must set the stage.  If you don't feel like reading
a book then press the next unseen key - just a warning.  I'm not
the best communicator but if I take the time think it out and edit
what I'm about to say then if it doesn't do anything for you, it
may at least help me. (I'm not really selfish though)

    In a previous company about 10 years ago I ended up in the
Mid-West area as an engineering consultant.  I had been in the working
force for only a couple of years and so the game was still new to me.
I did the unspeakable, I fell in love with the customer and she was
married.  What most people might call an affair.  It wasn't quite
like that though, she was seperated from her husband and family.

    (Now that I've been logged off twice and it's an hour later.
This is the time of the evening everyone is leaving the marina
and I do have to say bye.  Besides which, everyone here takes
pity on the only bachler here and leaves all the good munchies
they don't want to take home.  I think maybe I now can get back on
track with my lifes' history.  You'll have to excuse my excursions
since this is my way with coping with my past, so bare with me.)

    This affair went on for about 4 months and we kept it quite
discrete.  We also kept the affair on a very close friendship
level and stayed out of the bedroom.  I think we had the best
of times and although it is still painfull to remember after
10 years,  I still think it was the best relationship I've ever
had.  Maybe it was because we both knew we would be saying good bye
and head back to our own worlds.  I still don't know why the
affair was so good and why we got along so well.  It wasn't as
though we had just met since I worked with her for a year and
a half before the affair.

    Anyway I fell hopelessly in love to no avail and she decided
to go back to her husband and 2 children and 2 cars and $100,000
mortgage in south Milwaukee, and I came back to New Hampshire.
I quess what hurt the worst was the letter I received from her
husband a few months later, in the form of a sincere thanks. To
say the whole affair left me devistated is just slightly an
understatement.

   ( Back again, the barbeque corn on the cob and flounder was
great.  Especially when it's with good friends even though it
was on a power boat. - mine's a sail boat.  Please note - this
now is my way of coping with the single life - if you haven't
found a person to share your life with share it with many friends.
My first piece of advice. I don't give many.)

   So with that, I went looking for a wife.  My first big mistake.
How I found her and what our lives were like together I'll leave
out of this.  Suffice to say that after one year of marriage, we
were not happy.  I think about that time I knew it wouldn't work
but committed myself to giving it a try.  Was that a mistake?
I don't think so.  If we had gotten a divorce it would have saved
time but I don't think I'ld be the person I am today.  I think
I've learned a lot about living with another and hopefully, I
can apply this later on if I get the oppertunity.  Just as hard
as trying to make it work was trying to end the marriage without
hurting my wife as I was soon to find out.  You see, though I
didn't love her, I did have compassion for her as another person.
Atleast that's part of my rational and thru all this I blame myself.

    After four years of marriage I decided that it was time to
end the marriage.  I spent the next six months talking to others
about how to get a divorce and was finally led to a therapist.
She brought the two of us in for marriage counciling and had about
2 sessions with my wife and found that my wife was not of the
mental capacity for handling a divorce.  Big shock.  I decided
then to hold off for atleast another 6 months while my wife
went through therapy and after all that I spent about 1/2 hour
with the therapist and asked her for the easist way to handle
the situation.  The therapist's advice was not to worry about my
wife since she was now in much better condition to handle divorce
but to start thinking about myself.  She stated that I would fair
ok but would find divorce devistating and I should seek help from
friends and possibly a professional.  My second big mistake.
I did get some additional advice from her.  Two key points -

#1.  Understand why you got married in the first place and don't
     use love as an excuse - you'll just be trying to fool
     yourself.  Very few marriages start with love and most that
     do, last.

#2.  Understand and plan your future.  What do you want to do and
     why. Not just the next 6 months but at least 10 years if not
     the rest of your life.

    I wish (hind sight is 20/20) I had spent more time with the
therapist.  No. I'm not insane or crazy.  I think she would have
led me to understand myself much sooner and saved me much pain.

  Here's the hard part - I went through my own personal hell at
night and tried my best to put on my DEC hat during the day.  (I
had joined DEC about 8 months earlier) I did a lot of driving during
the evenings and solitary sailing on the ocean during the weekends
to sort out my life.  After the seperation but before the divorce
I took my share of the land we sold, and used it as a down payment
on a sail boat and started my new life.  The total change of life
style has helped.

  What did I feel?  Like I was in this huge auditorium with no lights
except for one faint flicker. This faint flicker was in the form of
(again) a customer.  Since my first experience was with a customer I
refused to reach out and even if she was just a friend I don't think
I would have dared to, and so I remained in this darkened auditorium
for four months.  Being the person I am, I didn't have any close
female friends (faithfull till the last?) that I could hold for the
evening, or cry on.  (Yes - the male species does cry.)  And I found
the steering wheel of my truck to be a very good listener.

    It's now been two years since my seperation and one since my
divorce.  Having gone thru this on my own, I can safely say -
It's been .... and only this year am I climbing out and starting
to get my life together.  If I had had children would it have been
different?  I honestly don't know.  I would have tried maybe a
little longer to hold the family together.  Maybe children would
have solved many problems or just created more in this situation.
I'll never know.  But starting my life over at 35 is not the easist.
I do understand many of my feelings. That being a key part of
understanding myself.  

    My second piece of advice?  I'll let you come up with that, but
this notes topic if you've read it thru, might give you some insight.
For those who are just now seperating,  find yourself a very close
friend who you can confide in, that will atleast make the transisition
easier.

    For me, It's only taken me 5 hours to write this. It's been hard
but worthwhile, for me atleast.  Finally - not one tear - the pain
is still there but I can think about some of the good times. And I
always concidered myself a rock?  Maybe an island looking for a bridge.

My best wishes to all of you for listening,  Maybe I've found some
new friends.

Lee

I don't think I'll look back at this to see if it makes sense, I might
have second thoughts about posting it, so please excuse some parts.
25.74Thanks for telling usQUARK::LIONELReality is frequently inaccurateTue Sep 02 1986 01:227
    Re .73:
       Lee, it makes perfect sense to me.  You are 100% right that the
    best thing to do is to find a good friend you can confide in - you'll
    go absolutely crazy if you don't tell ANYBODY.  If nothing else,
    you've got friends here.
    					Steve
    
25.75Conquering your fearsQUARK::LIONELReality is frequently inaccurateThu Sep 04 1986 02:1070
    Gee, I didn't think I'd go back to this topic, but we can't just
    let it sit there at only 74 responses, can we?  
    
    Anyway, I want to touch on a topic that seems to be a common thread
    in those who suddenly (or not so suddenly) find themselves in
    a disintegrating marriage - fear.
    
    The fear of being alone, the fear of "how can I survive without
    my mate", the fear of being unloveable and of growing old alone,
    the fear of entering "the dating game" again (if you ever were in
    it at all!), the fear of what it will do to your children, etc.,
    etc.
    
    I suffered through ALL of these fears, for months.  I've talked
    with others who have gone through the same thing - in person,
    in notes, by mail, etc.  The first thing I found was - I was not
    unique - EVERYONE I spoke with had felt the same emotions, even
    those who initiated the divorce.  This in itself was immensely
    comforting.  
    
    The second thing I learned was - you DO get over it.  It can take
    a long time, for some only months, for some even years, but the
    fears do go away.  The key I found is to stop hating yourself -
    and you surely do hate yourself if you find your marriage has
    failed.  Find a good friend and "spill your guts".  Don't necessarily
    look for specific advice - just someone who can be sympathetic and
    who you know LIKES you - after all, one of the principal fears is
    that nobody likes you.
    
    The next thing to do is to not become a hermit - pull yourself
    together and FORCE yourself to meet new people, or familiar
    people in new ways.  My father, whom my mother divorced after
    three years, told me that that first step, that first date, is
    so difficult to do, but once you do - it's like a tremendous
    burden has been lifted from you and you can start to live again.
    
    When I suddenly found myself alone, I was terrified.  In my mind,
    I was justified because I really had NEVER dated when I was young,
    and my wife and I had been together for twelve years.  That was
    more than a third of my life, and I couldn't possibly see how I,
    the shy and "dense" and (so I thought) unattractive man of 31 would
    ever be able to start a social life with women.  
    
    I was wrong, my dad was right - I FORCED myself to take the first step
    - I asked one of my single co-workers, whom I found attractive, out to
    lunch.  As I expected, she said "No", but I didn't care anymore
    - since I had gotten up the courage to ask once, I kept at it, until
    EVENTUALLY someone said "Yes"!
    
    That was a couple of months ago, and nowadays, I feel a lot more
    confident in myself.  I haven't dated very much, but I HAVE done
    so, and enjoyed it.  No longer do I walk around in a slump with
    a "poor me" expression on my face.  I hold my head up and smile,
    because I've made it - I survived, and I think I've come out a
    better person for it.  You can too!
    
    One more thing - I mentioned earlier the fear of what divorce will
    do to your children.  That's a difficult subject, but my sentiment
    is that if YOU show your child that you're making it, your child
    will too.  When I was glum, my son was often cranky and depressed.
    He sees a much happier Daddy now (and DEFINITELY, dads, DON'T let
    divorce take your children away from you!  THAT would be the biggest
    tragedy of all!)
    
    In a sense, I have all of you to thank - all my new friends from
    HUMAN_RELATIONS and those from SEXCETERA, my friends at work and
    my understanding and supportive management - for the way I feel
    today.  Thank you!
    					Steve
    
25.76MMO01::PNELSONlonging for TopekaThu Sep 04 1986 02:4025
    Steve, I find it interesting that you talk about fear in relation to
    the breakup of a marriage.  I have told people on several occasions
    that the one emotion that I remember above all others was intense,
    gut-wrenching fear.  What if I don't make enough money to live? I had
    never paid a bill in 10 years of marriage and had no inkling what it
    took to live.  What if my friends don't like me any more?   What if I
    end up totally alone?  What if I get sick?  What if the furnace breaks?
    What if I get fired? And on and on, ad nauseum.  Every time I've told
    this to someone, the other person has seemed genuinely surprised.
    Consequently, I have always thought I was the ONLY person in the world
    who experienced that feeling of fear! 
    
    The other point you made so well is that friendships are what get you
    through it.  I think I talked briefly about that in my first reply to
    this note, but it bears repeating.  Everyone I've ever known who's gone
    through it has relied on friends and freely admits they don't know how
    they would have survived without that support.  The word friendship
    took on a whole new meaning to me after that experience.  That's one of
    the positive things that came out of divorce for me. 
    
    Oh well, I've bored everyone enough with this topic.  Guess it's
    one that's near and dear to my heart and that's why I keep entering
    stuff here.  On to the next unseen...
    
    							Pat
25.77A.F.F.A.FDCV13::CALCAGNIFri Sep 05 1986 20:2524
    
      Pat/Steve:
       Yes Yes  how true..The exact feelings sad but true.
    The kids? I love my kids very much ! and that was the hard
    part. I finally told myself, the kids can see,,sense the 
    feelings between my ex. and myself. We never fought in front
    of the kids... 4 and 8 at the time, but they can tell.
    And what happens when the kids grow up...and away ?
    What would I have then ? Left in a postion with someone
    you couldn't stand for one milla second longer?
    
    I was 32 I left and I can relate to Steve so well..Scared you bet!
    
    I left a custom home every comfort you can possibly imagine,My
    ex loved to spend, to nothing..nothing except my pillow and a
    sleeping bag..
    Thank God for my brothers and my friends!
    
    It took a long time and still is to rebuild..One day at a time!
    
       But damn it, it's all worth it in the end.
    
    Cal.
    
25.78Does "amicable" divorce hurt less?ATFAB::REDDENseeking the intuitively obviousMon Sep 15 1986 19:209
    It doesn't seem like it should be this way, but the feelings/hurts of
    folks who have experienced "amicable" divorces sound like they are as
    intense as those of folks in "hostile" divorce situations.  The
    only way this makes sense to me is if the feelings are primarily
    driven by the process of dissolving the attachment/bonding, and
    the feelings are not very driven by the behavior of the other person.
    My conscious awareness says the feelings/hurts are a result of things
    the other person does/did, and not a general grief process.  But,
    if that were true, the "amicable" divorces would be less painful.
25.79No, it hurts moreQUARK::LIONELReality is frequently inaccurateMon Sep 15 1986 20:084
    In an "amicable" divorce, one is often trying to repress feelings
    of anger, because that "wouldn't be friendly".  The inability to
    express ones feelings can be most painful.
    					Steve
25.82!@#$%^&*()_+=-)(*&^%$#@!JUNIPR::DMCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityMon Sep 22 1986 21:5938
	Well, I'm no expert here, but I always sort-of thought that Steve
    Martin's "Wild and Crazy Guy" had a good solution to this problem.  He
    would simply recite the following:

		"I break with thee,
		"I break with thee,
		 I break with thee."

	...and then throw dog-poop on her shoes. ;^)

	Seriously, I don't know if there IS such a thing as an amicable
    divorce, simply because if the two people involved were cooperative enough
    to be truly amicable about it, then why would they need to get divorced in
    the first place?

	I agree with Steve that there is a danger in holding back feelings of
    frustration and anger without allowing them to vent.  People who practice
    this are attempting to contain alot of pressure simply to avoid a scene
    which might seem unpleasant or embarrassing at the time, and end-up boiling 
    their brain to the point where they eventually blow their top and do some-
    thing really crazy.

	Most therapy groups will have you do a little screaming just to learn
    how to do it.  I was never exposed or allowed to do any real venting as a
    child, so I had to acquire this ability later in life.  A good friend of
    mine used to occasionally take a big pillow and cover his face while he
    then proceeded to let out the most blood curdling yell that I had ever
    heard.  When he was done, he looked somewhat refreshed and relaxed - so I
    tried it and found it to be kind-of fun!  The pillow was mainly a courtesy
    for the rest of us (so we didn't have to go buy hearing-aids afterwards).

	Anyway, if divorce is on the agenda, then let it take it's course and
    don't try to hold feelings in for the sake of others - after all it's YOUR
    marriage that's going through changes, not anyone else's.

								-davo

    p.s.  You might consider carrying a pillow around for those primal screams!
25.83Your car won't mind...QUARK::LIONELReality is frequently inaccurateTue Sep 23 1986 02:194
    Re .82:
        I always found driving in the car a good time to scream, cry,
    or whatever else I felt like doing.
    				Steve
25.84Amicable divorceOMEGA::KINZELMANPaul KinzelmanTue Sep 23 1986 11:536
    A divorce can be reasonably amicable if one or both of the parties
    have a "fit of amicability" and realize that they can't keep it
    up. In my case it was a realization that more time spent together
    would be more hurt and it was time to move on. If we could both
    do it amicably we could get thru it with the least amount of hurt.
    
25.85Crying & High Speed Driving Don't Mix!ANYWAY::GORDONDept. of Magic &amp; WizardryTue Sep 23 1986 12:076
    re: crying in the car...
    
    	I would guess it's OK as long as your not in 65-70 mph bumper-
    to-bumper traffic on 128 ;-}
    
    					--D
25.86Massachusetts roads are dangerous enough as it is!JUNIPR::DMCLUREVaxnote your way to ubiquityTue Sep 23 1986 19:4913
re: crying & driving,

	I agree that this is perhaps even more dangerous (and maybe even a
    related-to, but untracable cause of many motor vehicle collisions).  One
    of the first things you learn in driver's ed. is to avoid driving while
    under emotional stress.

	Now, if you mean that you hold back while you drive, and then go
    somewhere and park and THEN cry, well, that's another story.  I would
    reccomend Walden Pond (off of route #2) for this, it's a nice quiet
    place to stop and rest (etc.) between Bedford and the Mill.

								-davo
25.87screaming in the car - bad memoriesHECTOR::RICHARDSONWed Sep 24 1986 16:2314
    Ugh, bad memories!  My first husband used to save up his really
    unpleasant haranges and fits of temper to yell at me in the car
    (our apartment had pretty thin walls - he slammed the bathroom door
    once, which was not against the outside wall of the apartment, and
    a voice from across the hall said "Don't slam the door!").  The
    problem with being involved in an argument with someone who always
    has to have the last word (especially if the topic is something
    you really didn't want to argue about anyhow) as you zip down the
    road at 55 mph (or faster...he was a very itchy driver) is that
    you can't open the door and walk away until the arguer cools off:
    you are STUCK.  Well, one time I did get out and walk home, and
    boy did that ever makes things worse!!  Like I said, BAD memories!
    
    Things sure are a LOT better these days!!
25.88Wanna go for a ride with me?ATFAB::REDDENsure 'nuf 2B uncertainWed Sep 24 1986 17:4118
    RE: 25.87
    
    I thought Steve was talking about riding *alone* and crying or screaming.
    I would rather be on the same road with someone that was crying
    than someone who was very angry.
    
    Anytime I get in a car with someone else driving, I feel like I
    am vulnerable.  Agreeing to let some else drive is a statement of
    trust that they will not take advantage of the fact that I am 
    essentially trapped in the car.
    
    I have wondered how one can expect to communicate when the listener
    has no choice except to listen.   I have about concluded that the
    this is only appropriate if verbal abuse is may goal. If I want
    to verbally rip you apart, I better get you in a situation where
    you cannot safely exit.  A car is ideal, because you can't safely
    do anything without risking a wreck.  You can't even respond except
    in ways that don't behaving non-linearly.
25.89QUARK::LIONELReality is frequently inaccurateWed Sep 24 1986 20:277
    Re .87, .88:
    
    Absolutely I was talking about crying in the car alone - usually
    when I was stuck in traffic on Rt. 3, and people would probably
    think I was upset about the traffic jam!
    
    				Steve
25.90JETSAM::HANAUERMike...Bicycle~to~Ice~CreamThu Sep 25 1986 13:176
Realize this is continuing the diversion, but...

I scream once in a while when I cycle and often sing as well.

It's mostly the singing which seems to cause windows to close as I 
approach.
25.91Amicable divorced ARE ossibleREGENT::EPSTEINDare to be eclecticMon Oct 06 1986 00:4514
RE: "Amicable divorces": (been a while since I've read this file)

Yes, it is very possible; the attitude of "If you get along so
well why are you gettting divorced" doesn't help. It is possible
to go from friends to lovers then back to "just friends" (albeit
having shared a certain bond); at that point, the two people involved
have to decide which of two paths to follow: 1. stay together with
the hope that "the loving feeling" will return, or 2. get divorced.
My ex and I tried 1 and then ended up divorced anyway. Even in divorce,
we stayed close friends, and would spend long periods of time on the
phone to each other. We just never saw each other in person. Even now,
5 years later, we still talk occasionally...

Bruce
25.92The secret to a successful marriage... (^;MMO03::PNELSONLonging for TopekaSun Nov 02 1986 01:4238
           <<< CONDOR::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANINE.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -<   Gone to the Dogs   >-
================================================================================
Note 420.0            CONTENPLATING DIVORCE?  GET A DOG!              No replies
CIPHER::POND                                         32 lines  25-AUG-1986 08:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

               DOGS CALLED A BENEFIT DURING MARITAL STRESS
    
    Boston - United Press International
    
    The family dog is not only "man's best friend" but may also be a
    a married couple's best defense against marital stress, according
    to a study released in Boston.
    
    The study by Dr. Robert W. Levenson, a psychologist at Indiana
    University, said a dog in the family creates a "soothing effect"
    that helps defuse marital conflicts.
    
    "The presence of a pet can improve interpersonal communications
    in the family," he said in his paper, presented at the conclusion
    of a four-day conference here on Interactions of People, Animals,
    and the Environment.
    
    In tests on 30 married couples, his research team found that when
    the dog owners had a conlfict, they reached resolution quicker if
    their family pet was in the same room.
    
    The study inluded videotaped conversations of married couples attached
    to recording devices - similar to lie detectors - that measured
    their heart and pulse rate, perspiration level, and muscle tension.
     
    Levenson said the findings were consistent in all couples tested,
    and the effect of the dog's presence was "most noticable in the
    most distressed marriages."
    
    The international conference was sponsored by the Delta Society
    of Renton, Wash., an animal research group.
25.93FOR ALLNEXUS::MOCKALISSat Feb 21 1987 00:2732
    I JUST WANTED TO PASS THIS ON TO ALL OF YOU OUT THERE.....IT IS
    INTTENDED FOR BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.....AND..IT IS NOT MEANT TO MAKE
    EVERY THING ALL BETTER, JUST MAYBE TO GIVE SOME PIECE OF MIND...
    EVEN IF IT HELPS JUST ONE OF YOU.......
    
    COMES WITH THE DAWN
    
    AFTER AWHILE YOU LEARN THE SUBTLE DIFFERENCE
    BETWEEN HOLDING A HAND AND CHAINING A SOUL,
    AND YOU LEARN THAT LOVE DOESN'T MEAN LEANING
    AND COMPANY DOESN'T MEAN SECURITY,
    AND YOU BEGIN TO LEARN THAT KISSES AREN'T CONTRACTS
    AND PRESENTS AREN'T PROMISES,
    AND YOU BEGIN TO ACCEPT YOUR DEFEATS
    WITH YOUR HEAD UP AND YOUR EYES OPEN,
    WITH THE GRACE OF A WOMAN,
    NOT THE GRIEF OF A CHILD,
    AND YOU LEARN TO BUILD ALL YOUR ROADS
    ON TODAY BECAUSE TOMORROW'S GROUND
    IS TOO UNCERTAIN FOR PLANS, AND FUTURES HAVE
    A WAY OF FALLING DOWN IN MIDFLIGHT.
    AFTER AWHILE YOU LEARN THAT EVEN SUNSHINE
    BURNS IF YOU GET TOO MUCH.
    SO PLANT YOUR OWN GARDEN AND DECORATE
    YOUR OWN SOUL, INSTEAD OF WAITING
    FOR SOMEONE TO BRING YOU FLOWERS.
    AND YOU LEARN THAT YOU REALLY CAN ENDURE....
    THAT YOU REALLY ARE STRONG
    AND YOU REALLY DO HAVE WORTH
    AND YOU LEARN AND LEARN....
    WITH EVERY GOODBYE YOU LEARN.
    
25.94FELIX::GKLEINBERGERmisery IS optionalTue Mar 10 1987 01:4014
    Question:
    
    What goes on in a pre-trial conference for a contested divorce?
    I know what my lawyer has told me, but what is the real scoop? 
    What emotions should I expect to encounter on all parts (including
    judges,lawyers,ex,mine)? What things should I be prepared for??
    If you have went through one, what would you have done differently?
    What did you do that you would recommend again?????
    
    ADVthanksANCE
    
    
    Gale
    
25.95misery is avoidableSKYLIT::SAWYERchains!...get yer chains!...Fri Mar 20 1987 19:1333
    
    be understanding.
    everythings ok.
    
    your marriage worked fine.
    now it's over.
    it's ok.
    
    time to move on.
    find new things....new people....new loves.
    
    BE FRIENDS!
    just because you two don't want to be married anymore doesn't
    mean that you have to hate each other or be mean.
    
    I know a number of people who have divorced and remained friends.
    It's nice to see them interact with each other.
    
    they still care for each other....they just don't love each other
    in that special way....
    
    it's ok.
    
    on the other hand.....be prepared for anger and hostility and
    false accusations and unreasonable demands.
    
    but don't counter them with you're own anger and hostility
    and false accusations and unreasonable demands.
    
    thta only makes it all worse.
    
    divorce does not have to be messy.
    
25.96To give you an up close and personal answerFELIX::GKLEINBERGERmisery IS optionalThu Mar 26 1987 01:3951
    RE: .0
    
    Michael,
    
    Maybe I can help with your question, but on another angle - how
    about  from the angle of the day the judge said so granted?
    
    I went to court today.  I had a major battle over one issue.  I
    could have gone to court (full trial - today was just pre-trial),
    but all of a sudden I was tired.  Tired of fighting with a man I
    love, but could no longer live with. Tired of fighting with a man
    who has done things to me that I would not wish on even my worst
    enemy.  Tired of fighting with a man who stood up and told the judge
    "I'm a self centered SOB, and will always be self-centered, and
    that is the way it will always be".  Tired of dishing out $$$, and
    losing out of my self respect (what little I had left)... Tired
    of seeing his lawyer walked away from him [EMILE GENEST - NEVER
    EVER EVER hired the man for anything - he is a lawyer right across
    the mill, and not worth the business cards he might hand out], because
    of personal isses.  Down right tired.  So what did I do... gave
    in.  Decided to take the losses, and get on with my life.  Decided
    not to spend another 1.5 grand to gain 4 grand that I might never
    see... 
    
    Did I lose... I don't think so.  I have the custody of three beautiful
    daughters, who will probably give me living hell through their teenage
    years.  I will be able to come home in the evenings to them, instead
    of four walls and a terminal. I probably will never marry again
    because what guy wants to take on the extra responsiblity... but
    I have their love, and will always have that.  I have their tears,
    theirs joys, and the ability to watch them grow and shape them.
    
    Michael, you wanted to know how it feels?  I left the court room,
    and sat and cried for an hour.  I am sitting here now, and feel
    like a major void is in my life.  I feel like a piece of me has
    just been torn out.  13 years of marriage, and now nothing. I feel
    deserted, and I was the one who filed for the divorce. The reasons
    I filed are beyonf the scope of this file, and just too too personal.
    
    You wanted to know how it feels... like pure hell, but a relief.
     I can now raise my girls in the environment that they need to be
    raised. I can take my life and pick up the pieces. I can now take
    one step, and go forward. Maybe I can finally get rid of the headache 
    I have had for the last 1.5 years while I have been fighting to come
    to an end.
    
    Meanwhile, first I need a way to stop these damn tears...
    
    There is your birds eye view.
    
    Gale
25.98at least you have your daughters, Gale!VIDEO::OSMANtype video::user$7:[osman]eric.sixThu Mar 26 1987 19:3822
Gale,

At least you have your daughters!  Money can easily be reearned.

My wife's exhusband has "primary "custody of the two kids, although
it's a "joint custody" arrangement.

She continually goes through lawyer hassles just fighting to get enough
visitation with her kids.

So it's like she's not divorced.  She has to keep fighting the man just
to see her children enough.

Hopefully, in your case it will be easier since you have custody.

Give up the money, be happy with your daughters.  I just hope your
ex doesn't make more trouble.  (after all, if he wants to fight with
you, now that you've given up in court, maybe he'll pick another battle)

Good luck, Gale.  (and stop by again when you're in PKO03!)

/Eric
25.99Never want to say goodbyeSKETCH::BASSETTTue Apr 28 1987 16:515
    I would rather die than live without my man.
    
    If it ever came down to that....
    
    BYE.
25.100AnullmentsMILVAX::R_BENNETTMon May 11 1987 23:2922
    
    
    I have just finished typing up the answers to the first questionaire 
    for my anullment.  Let me just add a word to those Catholics out
    there thinking of divorce:  Go to your church and ask for the
    applications for an anullment and fill it out then.  Have it ready
    so that as soon as your civil divorce is finalized you can send
    it in to the Tribunal.  My Civil divorce was finalized this past
    September, but I'm only starting to file for my annulment now. 
    Luckily I had filled out the papers when my husband and I were first
    separated, so I didn't have to remember what exactly had happened
    and when.  I had done it when it was all fresh in my mind.  But,
    even just typing it all up now brings back all the hurt and pain
    of my marriage.  
    
    Do yourself a favor and don't wait!  I guess it must take an awful
    long time before you can relive everything and not feel all the
    pain all over again!
    
    Ruth
    
    
25.101Why don't you all just stay married?USADEC::KIFERMon Sep 28 1987 20:2341
    re .27 A show that deals with real life problems is Highway to Heaven.
    
    re. 29 The Bible doesn't say that the man is king of the castle.
     It says wives submit to your husbands as unto the Lord.
    
    re .32 If you don't want to listen to someone's Bible then you don't
    have to read their note.  Simple isn't it?
    
    re .33 Divorce is not legal in the Biblical sense.
    
    re. 35 Why do you have to have common interests to stay married?
     If you go back to pre-Christian times doesn't that take us to the
    garden of Eden where God made Eve as a companion for Adam?
    
    re .36 What's wrong with that? It's against God's teachings.
    
    re .39 Why couldn't they be learning experiences to go on with the
    same person?
    
    re .41 Why can't you be in marriage and have different goals, hopes,
    and dreams?
    
    re .44 Have people forgotten how to compromise?
    	
    re .46 That didn't sound like he compromised at all!
    
    re .47 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, even
    Unitarian Universalists.
    
    re .96 Is it still too too personal?  I just don't understand why
    people get divorces.
    
    
    Lastly:  Why don't you all just stay married?
    
    	I listen to the frustrations and hassles of the divorce, custody,
    etc.  How much energy you end up putting into it to get what you
    want from the divorce.  Wouldn't it just be easier and more beneficial
    to put the enery into working on the relationship?
    
    									Lee
25.102BUSY::KLEINBERGERMAXCIMize your effortsMon Sep 28 1987 22:4147
.101>    re .96 Is it still too too personal?  I just don't understand why
.101>    people get divorces.
    
    Yes, it is much to personal for a public notesfile.  Some people
    on the net know, and they agreed that it is too personal to lay
    out for the whole world to see... You may not understand, I hope
    you never "have" to understand.  I wish I was put in a situation
    where I "didn't" have to understand, but I was, and I do.
    
    You sited many biblical referrals in your reply.  Would it shock you
    to learn that I am a Christian?  Would it shock you to know that
    Jesus forgave the sinner that was next to him on the cross? Would
    it shock you to know that my father is a minister, and HE paid my
    lawyers retainer's fee?... I WILL NOT get in a biblical argument
    here in this conference, as it is not the place for it (Mr. Moderator,
    correct me if I'm wrong :-)..), however, I will say that judge
    ye not, less you be judged...
    
    
.101>    Lastly:  Why don't you all just stay married?
    
.101>  	I listen to the frustrations and hassles of the divorce, custody,
.101>   etc.  How much energy you end up putting into it to get what you
.101>   want from the divorce.  Wouldn't it just be easier and more beneficial
.101>    to put the enery into working on the relationship?
    

    If you were being physically beaten everynight, would you put more
    into the relationship?.. If you were mentally abused, would you
    then?... how about when the children are being abused?..
    
    Sometimes it just can't have more energy put into it.  
    
    Sometimes a person just decides to leave, and walk out and not return,
    and will not try, and wasn't even there, even If you wanted put
    all the energy in the world...  sometimes you JUST can't do what
    you were wondering...
    
    I still hope you never have to understand....
    
    Gale
    
    P.S. For an update - I am beginning to have a life again, and now
    realize that even thogh .96 was the HARDEST thing I probably did
    in my life, it was the BEST thing for my girls, and me! Thanks
    to everyone who still continue to care!
25.103religious beliefs = opinionGNUVAX::BOBBITTface piles of trials with smilesTue Sep 29 1987 16:4022
    re .101, in your ref to .47
    
    "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, even Unitarian
    Universalists".
    
    this one in particular (as I am a UU), and some other statements in
    your responses, strike me as being your opinion rather than
    inquestionable fact.  I do not deny your right to your opinion,
    but I also claim I have equal right to my own.  
    
    I have never had to get a divorce, but I have seen some of my
    several-year relationships end, some with fire, and some with ice. I do
    not advocate the "disposable relationship" by any means, but since
    nobody is perfect (except perhaps god/the goddess), there must
    sometimes be a time of reckoning when it is realized that the quality
    of one's life, and the direction of one's life, are not as one wishes,
    and this may cause one to may part ways with those mates that had been
    previously chosen.  
    
    -Jody 

    
25.105Unreligious Platitudes by sanctimonious hypocrites s*ck!YODA::BARANSKILaw?!? Hell! Give me *Justice*!Mon Oct 05 1987 15:300
25.106Do tellHPSCAD::WALLI see the middle kingdom...Tue Oct 06 1987 20:104
    
    Intolerant name-calling is equally bad.
    
    DFW
25.107Death to all Fanatics! :-)YODA::BARANSKILaw?!? Hell! Give me *Justice*!Wed Oct 07 1987 12:330
25.108Another 'Fanatic' bits the dustBETA::EARLYBob_the_HikerFri Oct 09 1987 14:591
    re: .107 sounds like a fanatical idea, jim   ;^)
25.109that's the idea...YODA::BARANSKILaw?!? Hell! Give me *Justice*!Fri Oct 09 1987 15:480
25.110Why does everyone walk away?KYOMTS::CARTOLANOThu Oct 15 1987 17:0820
    I have something very strong to say about divorce and splitting
    up relationships.  I've been divorced since 1982, and divorce is
    very painful and not fun at all. It leaves you so that you become
    somewhat insecure, unsure, and very much afraid of starting a
    relationship with anyone else, and if and when you do, you are very
    much afraid of things turning out for the worse again. You become
    afraid of people giving up or walking away from it all.  That seems
    to be the problem today people walk away to quickly without giving
    it all a chance to talk things out. There is absolutly no issue
    that cannot be talked out reasonably if tried with some caring effort.
    
    Marriage is the greatest state to be in and believe me divorce is
    not fun.  It's very hard to meet someone who is positive on marraige
    because you here to many "bad" views on the subject.
    
    So for all of you out ther who are married, take my advice, stay
    married. If you really love eachother, nothing and I mean *nothing*
    in the world can tear that apart.
    
    Patti :^)
25.111it's not the end of the worldDONNER::BERRYnope, that ain't Star Trek.Fri Oct 16 1987 08:3620
    RE:  .110   Patti
    
    I agree Patti.  I went through one too.  My spouse refused to
    communicate, and when you can't communicate, you can't resolve.
    
    BUT...
    
    There is life after divorce.  I used to get down and out too.  I
    dated, but didn't enjoy dating much.  It's so hard to find someone
    you can really "blend" with.  That's why there are so many singles
    hopping the bars, etc.
    
    I finally met a girl from Massachusetts, (thru the network), several
    months ago.  She won my heart, (or stole it), and we're to be married.
    I have never loved as I do now.  I've been told that everything
    happens for a reason.  There was a reason for marrying before. 
    I'm pretty sure that I did learn something from it.  I've still
    got a lot to learn.  
    
    -Dwight
25.112re: 11..i'll say!SKYLIT::SAWYERhey ma! what's our religion...?Tue Oct 20 1987 19:0323
    
    re: 110
    greatest state = marriage....!?!?!?!
    
    nope, greatest state equals financial/emotional security and
    independance.
    
    divorce = no fun?
    could it be?
    is it possible?
    do i dare suggest that the reason divorce is no fun is because
    of the preconditioning we've all recieved at the hands of our
    parents and society in general?
    
    perhaps divorce would be more fun if we didn;'t
    	get pissed cus he promised to love me forever but he didn't!
    	get despondant because now i'll die old and lonely
    	
    how come marrige is the only thing besides toilet seats that
    is discussed in human relations?
    
    though i see the connection....:-)
    
25.113It's all in the mind...RDGE28::LIDSTERWhy am always the last to know ?Tue Nov 17 1987 11:4437
    
    	Divorce is all in the mind.....
    
       	We had the guts to admit we were wrong, I didn't love her, she
    didn't love me, we were ruining our daughters life with our arguing,
    my family wouldn't talk to me (mind you... neither would hers !),
    everybody disliked everybody else ! So what do you do ?? We got a
    Divorce and while Life is not perfect at the moment - it's pretty
    damn good !!.
    
    	She now sees someone else (she's happy, I'm happy), I now see
    someone else (I'm happy, she's happy). My daughter thinks it's
    fun having two places to sleep. Her family are happy, my family
    are happy. 
    
    	I understand and am sympathetic to people who have a hard time
    getting divorced - I know the feelings because mine wasn't easy
    (is it ever ?). Being positive is the best medicine - look to tomorrow
    not yesterday - that's gone forever in everything but memory.
    
    	Something my mother sent to me when we split up:-
    
    		It's all in the State of Mind.
      		If you think you are beaten - you are.
    		If you think you dare not - you dont.
    		If you like to win but think you cant,
    		You almost certainly wont.
    		If you think you'll lose - you've lost.
    		For out in the world you find Success begins
    		With a person's will.
    		It's all in the state of mind.
       		
	......Sound advice
    
  To Tomorrow,

    
25.114MANTIS::PAREWhat a long, strange trip its beenWed Nov 18 1987 15:531
    I'll raise a glass to that one.  Well said.
25.115What to do...what to doDISSRV::KOSKIIt's in the way that you use it...Thu Dec 03 1987 14:1318
    114 responses latter...this is much cheaper than counseling. 
    I'm in the contemplation stage. Why? I don't think I'm in love with
    my hubby, anymore. I am in love with another. My greatest fears are letting
    my marriage deteriorate to a "hate" stage, or staying in a loveless
    marrage, as my parents have for 37+ yrs. 
    One reply mentioned Friendship -> Lovers back to Friends. That's
    it to a tee. Hubby is oblivious to any problem, I think?
    But I feel he's lost me and I, not wanting to hurt a friend, can't
    think of a way to tell him. 
    So many have written of the years that draged on after their initial
    realization that it wasn't going to work. I don't want to contemplate
    this for years, but I'm far from ready to make a decision. 
    Complicating it all? Another love! Now, that's on person I know I'm
    not ready to give up. 
    Ok, hit me with your best shot. and thanks
    
    Yet another...Gail
    
25.116Talk!QUARK::LIONELWe all live in a yellow subroutineThu Dec 03 1987 14:2412
    Re: .115
    
    Gail - You say "Hubby is oblivious to any problem, I think?"
    Don't you know?  Have you asked him?  Have you TOLD him that YOU
    have a problem, and you'd like to solve it?  Ask him to join you
    for counseling.
    
    Only after you get an explicit denial of interest should you consider
    further steps.  Make VERY SURE that you understand what his feelings
    are.  Don't just assume that because he hasn't said anything that he
    doesn't care. 
    				Steve
25.117This file is not private!MINAR::BISHOPThu Dec 03 1987 18:5312
    I sure hope the husband of .115 does not work for DEC, does
    not know anyone at DEC, and has no neighbors, employers,
    etc. who work at DEC.
    
    What a downer it would be to discover that your wife doesn't love
    you anymore because she put it in a notes file for everyone to
    read and your next-door-neighbor knew all about it, your dentist
    knew because her wife worked for DEC...
    
    And worse yet, she had told them before she told you!
    
    			-John Bishop
25.118it's hard but do it -- Talk to hubby !VIDEO::OSMANtype video::user$7:[osman]eric.vt240Thu Dec 03 1987 18:5317
Not in love with your hubby anymore ?

I'd bet it's BECAUSE you and he, for whatever reason, haven't talked
at all about this issue.

I know.  I'm married.  When we don't feel love, it's BECAUSE we haven't
talked about some issue.  When we finally do, sometimes it hurts, but
beyond the hurt is always renewed love.

So, before instigating divorce, TELL your husband you have an issue.
TELL him you need to talk.  I think you'll be surprised at the
result.

Your new love ?  You don't need to mention that right away.  But
if you talk, it'll come up, believe me.

/Eric
25.119Can you say "STRESS"?DISSRV::KOSKIIt's in the way that you use it...Mon Dec 07 1987 15:159
    re: .117 Don't worry he doesn't know anyother DECies, it's a mute
    point now, I let him in on the "news"
    
    Thanks for the kick in the pants Steve & Eric re: talking
    We talked, I've got to wonder what it accomplished.
    I'm heading out of this conference into profesional counselling.
    I can't rule out my return. 
    
    Gail
25.120Taking a StepBARAKA::BLAZEKA new moon, a warm sun...Tue Dec 08 1987 00:208
    	Gail,
    
    	I hope you accomplish whatever you want to.  Your strength
    	is admirable, and I, for one, hope you do return.
    
    	In peace,
    					Carla
    
25.121greener pastures..SLUGER::HOOGENDOORNSat Mar 12 1988 12:447
re: .115 
Is it the marriage that's really the
problem or is it more the problem of being in love with another person that 
your spouse doesn't quite match up to ?. What if the other person wasn't 
there ?.  Which relationship is the better to end, the one that you allready 
have or the one you might have ?.

25.122It's spring...the grass is getting green!BLITZN::LITASISherry LitasiSun Mar 13 1988 00:5819
    re: .115 & .121
    
    Sometimes the new person makes you realize that there has been
    something seriously wrong with the marriage for a long time.
    
    This has also happened to me.  Even though the new person did not
    develop into a serious relationship, and has since ended, it made
    me talk to my husband about the lack of love and commitment - and
    even future of our 17 yr old marriage.
    
    I almost left my home of 14 years this week.  I didn't because at
    the last minute I had cold feet.  Now I know I will have to, cause
    things are not going to get better.  Friends have suggested that
    I am thinking the "grass is greener", and I agree.  For me the decision
    to change is very difficult.  Reading this notes file has helped
    me alot.  (BTW I am going to counseling also)
    
    	Sherry
    
25.123The IDEAL DivorceNCVAX1::FOULKRODTue Aug 23 1988 18:2926
    Divorce, what an interesting concept! 

    After 5 years of being 
    miserably married to the wrong man, for the wrong reasons, at 
    the wrong time of my life (I was 18, stupid fool). Even though 
    getting divorced was my idea, I wasn't prepared for what followed.
    I gave my ex-husband custody of our 2 children, even though the 
    judge thought I was crazy (don't let anyone fool you into thinking 
    there is equality during a divorce.....there isn't)......my lawyer 
    encouraged me to take it all and run....lawyers can be such jerks!!!  
    Since when would that make it all better? Well, I didn't take it 
    all, I took nothing except myself..... I figured my ex wasn't to 
    blame for it all (alot of it though). So, my ex has the children 
    (I pay support), the house, "everything". But...I'd say I'm happier, 
    he's remarried twice in the last 10 years, I just remarried 2 months 
    ago.  We get along better now then when we were married, course....I
    don't tolerate any of his crap...thats why we get along. I feel sad for 
    him because he doesn't seem to have figured it out yet. There is alot to
    learn about yourself, others, life........ It takes alot of courage to 
    alone.

    But.....whom ever thinks divorce has to be revenge is wrong.......let it 
    be the beginning of a new life, learn from it...I did and it has really 
    been helpful!  The best piece of advice I could ever give to those who
    are currently married, and those divorced and looking; NEVER LOSE SIGHT
    OF WHO YOU ARE!  It happens so easily!
25.124another one bites the dustRTPSWS::PRESSLEYMon Aug 21 1989 00:5042
    I'm now separated.  It has been about 10 weeks.  In North Carolina you
    must wait 1 year before getting a divorce.  I remember entering a note
    here about 9 weeks ago.  It took me about 3 hours to formulate the
    thing and then when I proceeded to write it my network connection
    severed and I lost the entire thing.  So 9 weeks later I'm attempting
    once again to enter this note.  This time it will be a little different
    from the first version.  The first version was quite emotional.  I
    remember when my wife first left me that I had problems with just
    seeing other couples together.  I would picture myself in that
    scenerio. You know, what had been.  Well it took about 2 weeks but
    I got over that.  The next thing was getting over not having any
    furniture.  I don't know what it is but the wife tends to get
    the furniture.  I immediately ran out to buy a TV.  Well I decided
    not to buy one right away.  I think deep down that the TV was part
    of the reason for my marriage failure.  You tend not to speak as much
    when the TV is on.  I like not having a TV.  I do things I would not
    normally do such as writing this note or just going out more often.
    I decided to change my lifestyle.  I figured that way I could get
    over the new change in lifestyle...married to single.  I became more
    active.  Since I was single I realized that I must start getting into
    singles shape.  That part is easy.  The hard part is having to once
    again learn how to flirt with the ladies.  I'll go out with other
    single guys and watch them make their moves on the women and think,
    oh my gosh it's coming back to me now.  This single scene is going to
    be hard work.  By the way I'm 31 and had been married for 10 years.
    No Kids thank goodness.  About the time my separation occured I 
    left a customer account which I had been dedicated to for 5 years
    as a software resident.  My customer and I were so close that they
    gave me a going away party.  In one part of my mind it was a going away
    party and in the other part it was a separation party.  I never told
    the customer I was separated...too embarrassing.  So my personal and
    professional life change within two weeks of each other.  I'm now
    in sales support with a new customer who thinks I've always been a
    single lad.  It's different being alone.  A brand new experience.
    There's a tendency to try and find someone to replace you know who
    but since I'm still a "how to get a date trainee", I'm involuntarily
    protecting myself from the rebound scenerio.  I try not to look back,
    but to look forward.  I'm looking forward to meeting some classy woman.
    The first 123 replies to this note were very helpful.  This is a
    wonderful notes file.  I'm glad I found it.  There are definite
    advantages to being single.  For example, I know how much money is
    in the check book.
25.125DivorceELMAGO::RMOOREWed Apr 03 1991 12:0612
    
    
    Divorce is not a pretty sight. In fact divorce courts are packed
    with people who tried to base their marriages on "If you do this,
    I'll do that. Even though the aim of divorce is freedom. But freedom
    carries a price tag. The question is, "Can you afford it?" 
    Even if divorce should happen to everyone, it is still wrong.
    
    
    
    
                              RM
25.126XCUSME::HOGGEDragon Slaying...No Waiting!Wed Apr 03 1991 13:467
    RM,
    
    I'll disagree with you there.  Sometimes Divorce is RIGHT....
    especially when you reach the point of deciding to use a knife or 
    a gun on the spouse.
    
    Skip